The Mellotron Group

Hello all.

My name is Sean Lowrie. Sadly I do not own a 'tron, just the M-Tron samples; a
MkVI is on my wish list. I've asked this question at the "Mellotronists" group and a member there suggested I should ask this group as well.

I've had the samples for about a year and a half and I'm still trying to come up
with the correct signal handling and mixing to get the megalithic Moody Blues
and King Crimson sounds I'm used to.

Last week I made a breakthrough. I'm currently splitting the output and taking
that into to separate unbalanced inputs on my small multitrack mixer. First
channel I leave dry, cut the low and high, and boost the mid range. The second
channel I send all the signal to the internal effects unit on this board for
reverb. (It's an Alesis board and I'm fairly happy with their electronic reverb
circuitry, which even creates slightly different results for left and right
channels) I have this signal boosted in lows and highs but scooped in the mid
range: an approximate mirror of the dry channel settings. On my board L is 80Hz,
M is 2.5kHz, and H is 12kHz. I'm getting fairly close to the sound I want,
fairly close indeed, but I'm not there. I finally have the presence and in
general a megalithic quality in sound.

What I don't have is the chocolate-smooth sound that I'm used to out of King
Crimson. I'm thinking specifically the studio tracks "Lament" and "The Night
Watch" from the 1974 album Starless and Bible Black. When I listen to these
tracks I notice that the sound has more... for lack of a better term "breath."
The sound seems to be of much higher fidelity than I'm used to out of the
Mellotron while still retaining the distinctive Mellotron sound.

Through research on the internet I'm sure these tracks were studio recorded on
two well maintained M400s. I've tried every sort of search I can imagine in
Google, I've been hitting the King Crimson fan sites hoping for information.
I've learned that RF scuttled an entire 2009 KC West Coast USA tour, that's
where I live, over some hurt feelings or something, it's not clear what, but
nothing on their mixing techniques.

I'm listening to The Night Watch as I'm writing this long question. The sound is
not any more present, and actually less megalithic than what I have, but it has
time-CLARITY (not just a boost in the 4kHz area) that I cannot seem to achieve,
along with a slight bit of chorus type phasing I think.

On the front of the Moody Blues sound, I can't seem to get my sound as sleepy as
Mike Pinder can. I understand his MkII he modified himself, but to my
understanding he only removed the pre-amp circuit that boosted the signal at
10kHz. The "tone" knob on M-Tron, as on the real deal (to my understanding) is
also at 10kHz and so I keep that real low, around 9'o'clock...

The sound still isn't there. Infact, it seems too dull and smeared. I pulled out
Days of Future Passed and listened to Tuesday Afternoon. I'm fairly sure the
lead is "Trumpets and Trombones" doubled with "MkII Violins" and the harmony is
"MkII Brass" again doubled with the violins. However, I'm noticing that the note
attacks on the record have more of a harsh garbled attack, and my samples
actually sound more like the instruments sampled than Mr. Pinder's MkII does. If
it's a matter of tape cutting I'm sure I can't do anything about it.

But still that's not entirely the whole problem. I'm still not getting the
chocolate-smooth sound that is also hollow and graceful. I asked Mr. Pinder on
his own forum, but that was nearly a year ago and I don't think he's logged in
to the forum in all this time. His right certainly to do so. Doesn't solve my
ignorance though...

Is it a matter of compression technique? Using a haphazard collection of all
digital equipment I don't have access to real-time compression, only after the
fact in Audacity and so I tend to avoid compression as it becomes too much of
guess-and-check work. Is there something else I'm missing out on? When it comes
to the violin sound I've taken the care to exclusively use what M-Tron names
"MkII Vintage Violins" which is by far the highest fidelity version of that tape
set the sample set has. It's REALLY good. Still, I know I'm missing out on
something.

So, after 3 chapters worth of ranting (damn this is a loooooong question I've
got) I ask you all, you who are lucky enough to have and use a real Mellotron
(or those who have gotten really good at using the sample software), for your
expert opinions and advice. I've been banging my head into a wall on this one
and I've lost confidence that I'll get any further than this on my own.

Thanks to you all so much, you deserve a cookie or dinner or something for even
reading through what has got to be one of the longest emails in the last decade.

-Sean Lowrie
fourtytwominds@yahoo.com

The consensus is that Tuesday Afternoon is Tenor Sax and Three Violins - 
you can hear it pretty clearly, and since you have M-tron, you can try 
it out.  I've done it and that is the sound.


fourtytwominds wrote:

>  
>
> Hello all.
>
> My name is Sean Lowrie. Sadly I do not own a 'tron, just the M-Tron 
> samples; a
> MkVI is on my wish list. I've asked this question at the 
> "Mellotronists" group and a member there suggested I should ask this 
> group as well.
>
> I've had the samples for about a year and a half and I'm still trying 
> to come up
> with the correct signal handling and mixing to get the megalithic 
> Moody Blues
> and King Crimson sounds I'm used to.
>
> Last week I made a breakthrough. I'm currently splitting the output 
> and taking
> that into to separate unbalanced inputs on my small multitrack mixer. 
> First
> channel I leave dry, cut the low and high, and boost the mid range. 
> The second
> channel I send all the signal to the internal effects unit on this 
> board for
> reverb. (It's an Alesis board and I'm fairly happy with their 
> electronic reverb
> circuitry, which even creates slightly different results for left and 
> right
> channels) I have this signal boosted in lows and highs but scooped in 
> the mid
> range: an approximate mirror of the dry channel settings. On my board 
> L is 80Hz,
> M is 2.5kHz, and H is 12kHz. I'm getting fairly close to the sound I want,
> fairly close indeed, but I'm not there. I finally have the presence and in
> general a megalithic quality in sound.
>
> What I don't have is the chocolate-smooth sound that I'm used to out 
> of King
> Crimson. I'm thinking specifically the studio tracks "Lament" and "The 
> Night
> Watch" from the 1974 album Starless and Bible Black. When I listen to 
> these
> tracks I notice that the sound has more... for lack of a better term 
> "breath."
> The sound seems to be of much higher fidelity than I'm used to out of the
> Mellotron while still retaining the distinctive Mellotron sound.
>
> Through research on the internet I'm sure these tracks were studio 
> recorded on
> two well maintained M400s. I've tried every sort of search I can 
> imagine in
> Google, I've been hitting the King Crimson fan sites hoping for 
> information.
> I've learned that RF scuttled an entire 2009 KC West Coast USA tour, 
> that's
> where I live, over some hurt feelings or something, it's not clear 
> what, but
> nothing on their mixing techniques.
>
> I'm listening to The Night Watch as I'm writing this long question. 
> The sound is
> not any more present, and actually less megalithic than what I have, 
> but it has
> time-CLARITY (not just a boost in the 4kHz area) that I cannot seem to 
> achieve,
> along with a slight bit of chorus type phasing I think.
>
> On the front of the Moody Blues sound, I can't seem to get my sound as 
> sleepy as
> Mike Pinder can. I understand his MkII he modified himself, but to my
> understanding he only removed the pre-amp circuit that boosted the 
> signal at
> 10kHz. The "tone" knob on M-Tron, as on the real deal (to my 
> understanding) is
> also at 10kHz and so I keep that real low, around 9'o'clock...
>
> The sound still isn't there. Infact, it seems too dull and smeared. I 
> pulled out
> Days of Future Passed and listened to Tuesday Afternoon. I'm fairly 
> sure the
> lead is "Trumpets and Trombones" doubled with "MkII Violins" and the 
> harmony is
> "MkII Brass" again doubled with the violins. However, I'm noticing 
> that the note
> attacks on the record have more of a harsh garbled attack, and my samples
> actually sound more like the instruments sampled than Mr. Pinder's 
> MkII does. If
> it's a matter of tape cutting I'm sure I can't do anything about it.
>
> But still that's not entirely the whole problem. I'm still not getting the
> chocolate-smooth sound that is also hollow and graceful. I asked Mr. 
> Pinder on
> his own forum, but that was nearly a year ago and I don't think he's 
> logged in
> to the forum in all this time. His right certainly to do so. Doesn't 
> solve my
> ignorance though...
>
> Is it a matter of compression technique? Using a haphazard collection 
> of all
> digital equipment I don't have access to real-time compression, only 
> after the
> fact in Audacity and so I tend to avoid compression as it becomes too 
> much of
> guess-and-check work. Is there something else I'm missing out on? When 
> it comes
> to the violin sound I've taken the care to exclusively use what M-Tron 
> names
> "MkII Vintage Violins" which is by far the highest fidelity version of 
> that tape
> set the sample set has. It's REALLY good. Still, I know I'm missing out on
> something.
>
> So, after 3 chapters worth of ranting (damn this is a loooooong 
> question I've
> got) I ask you all, you who are lucky enough to have and use a real 
> Mellotron
> (or those who have gotten really good at using the sample software), 
> for your
> expert opinions and advice. I've been banging my head into a wall on 
> this one
> and I've lost confidence that I'll get any further than this on my own.
>
> Thanks to you all so much, you deserve a cookie or dinner or something 
> for even
> reading through what has got to be one of the longest emails in the 
> last decade.
>
> -Sean Lowrie
> fourtytwominds@yahoo.com <mailto:fourtytwominds%40yahoo.com>
>
>

First problem is that M-tron samples suck.
 
 
In a message dated 7/20/2009 5:27:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
fourtytwominds@yahoo.com writes:

 
 
 
Hello all.

My name is Sean Lowrie. Sadly I do not own a 'tron, just  the M-Tron 
samples; a
MkVI is on my wish list. I've asked this question at  the "Mellotronists" 
group and a member there suggested I should ask this group  as well.

I've had the samples for about a year and a half and I'm still  trying to 
come up
with the correct signal handling and mixing to get the  megalithic Moody 
Blues
and King Crimson sounds I'm used to.

Last  week I made a breakthrough. I'm currently splitting the output and  
taking
that into to separate unbalanced inputs on my small multitrack  mixer. First
channel I leave dry, cut the low and high, and boost the mid  range. The 
second
channel I send all the signal to the internal effects  unit on this board 
for
reverb. (It's an Alesis board and I'm fairly happy  with their electronic 
reverb
circuitry, which even creates slightly  different results for left and right
channels) I have this signal boosted  in lows and highs but scooped in the 
mid
range: an approximate mirror of  the dry channel settings. On my board L is 
80Hz,
M is 2.5kHz, and H is  12kHz. I'm getting fairly close to the sound I want,
fairly close indeed,  but I'm not there. I finally have the presence and in
general a megalithic  quality in sound.

What I don't have is the chocolate-smooth sound that  I'm used to out of 
King
Crimson. I'm thinking specifically the studio  tracks "Lament" and "The 
Night
Watch" from the 1974 album Starless and  Bible Black. When I listen to these
tracks I notice that the sound has  more... for lack of a better term 
"breath."
The sound seems to be of much  higher fidelity than I'm used to out of the
Mellotron while still retaining  the distinctive Mellotron sound.

Through research on the internet I'm  sure these tracks were studio 
recorded on
two well maintained M400s. I've  tried every sort of search I can imagine in
Google, I've been hitting the  King Crimson fan sites hoping for 
information.
I've learned that RF  scuttled an entire 2009 KC West Coast USA tour, that's
where I live, over  some hurt feelings or something, it's not clear what, 
but
nothing on their  mixing techniques.

I'm listening to The Night Watch as I'm writing this  long question. The 
sound is
not any more present, and actually less  megalithic than what I have, but 
it has
time-CLARITY (not just a boost in  the 4kHz area) that I cannot seem to 
achieve,
along with a slight bit of  chorus type phasing I think.

On the front of the Moody Blues sound, I  can't seem to get my sound as 
sleepy as
Mike Pinder can. I understand his  MkII he modified himself, but to my
understanding he only removed the  pre-amp circuit that boosted the signal 
at
10kHz. The "tone" knob on  M-Tron, as on the real deal (to my 
understanding) is
also at 10kHz and so I  keep that real low, around 9'o'clock...

The sound still isn't there.  Infact, it seems too dull and smeared. I 
pulled out
Days of Future Passed  and listened to Tuesday Afternoon. I'm fairly sure 
the
lead is "Trumpets  and Trombones" doubled with "MkII Violins" and the 
harmony is
"MkII Brass"  again doubled with the violins. However, I'm noticing that 
the note
attacks  on the record have more of a harsh garbled attack, and my samples
actually  sound more like the instruments sampled than Mr. Pinder's MkII 
does.  If
it's a matter of tape cutting I'm sure I can't do anything about  it.

But still that's not entirely the whole problem. I'm still not  getting the
chocolate-smooth sound that is also hollow and graceful. I  asked Mr. 
Pinder on
his own forum, but that was nearly a year ago and I  don't think he's 
logged in
to the forum in all this time. His right  certainly to do so. Doesn't solve 
my
ignorance though...

Is it a  matter of compression technique? Using a haphazard collection of  
all
digital equipment I don't have access to real-time compression, only  after 
the
fact in Audacity and so I tend to avoid compression as it becomes  too much 
of
guess-and-check work. Is there something else I'm missing out  on? When it 
comes
to the violin sound I've taken the care to exclusively  use what M-Tron 
names
"MkII Vintage Violins" which is by far the highest  fidelity version of 
that tape
set the sample set has. It's REALLY good.  Still, I know I'm missing out on
something.

So, after 3 chapters  worth of ranting (damn this is a loooooong question 
I've
got) I ask you  all, you who are lucky enough to have and use a real 
Mellotron
(or those  who have gotten really good at using the sample software), for 
your
expert  opinions and advice. I've been banging my head into a wall on this 
one
and  I've lost confidence that I'll get any further than this on my  own.

Thanks to you all so much, you deserve a cookie or dinner or  something for 
even
reading through what has got to be one of the longest  emails in the last 
decade.

-Sean Lowrie
_fourtytwominds@fourtytwo_ (mailto:fourtytwominds@yahoo.com) 





**************What's for dinner tonight?  Find quick and easy dinner ideas 
for any occasion. 
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?ncid=emlcntusfood00000008)

I like your answer better than mine, John.
 
 
In a message dated 7/20/2009 5:57:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
astroboy@cinci.rr.com writes:

 
 
 
The consensus is that Tuesday Afternoon is Tenor Sax and Three Violins -  
you can hear it pretty clearly, and since you have M-tron, you can try  
it out. I've done it and that is the sound.

fourtytwominds  wrote:
> 
>
> Hello all.
>
> My name is Sean  Lowrie. Sadly I do not own a 'tron, just the M-Tron 
> samples;  a
> MkVI is on my wish list. I've asked this question at the 
>  "Mellotronists" group and a member there suggested I should ask this 
>  group as well.
>
> I've had the samples for about a year and a  half and I'm still trying 
> to come up
> with the correct signal  handling and mixing to get the megalithic 
> Moody Blues
> and  King Crimson sounds I'm used to.
>
> Last week I made a  breakthrough. I'm currently splitting the output 
> and taking
>  that into to separate unbalanced inputs on my small multitrack mixer. 
>  First
> channel I leave dry, cut the low and high, and boost the mid  range. 
> The second
> channel I send all the signal to the  internal effects unit on this 
> board for
> reverb. (It's an  Alesis board and I'm fairly happy with their 
> electronic  reverb
> circuitry, which even creates slightly different results for  left and 
> right
> channels) I have this signal boosted in lows  and highs but scooped in 
> the mid
> range: an approximate mirror  of the dry channel settings. On my board 
> L is 80Hz,
> M is  2.5kHz, and H is 12kHz. I'm getting fairly close to the sound I 
want,
>  fairly close indeed, but I'm not there. I finally have the presence and  
in
> general a megalithic quality in sound.
>
> What I don't  have is the chocolate-smooth sound that I'm used to out 
> of  King
> Crimson. I'm thinking specifically the studio tracks "Lament" and  "The 
> Night
> Watch" from the 1974 album Starless and Bible  Black. When I listen to 
> these
> tracks I notice that the sound  has more... for lack of a better term 
> "breath."
> The sound  seems to be of much higher fidelity than I'm used to out of the
>  Mellotron while still retaining the distinctive Mellotron  sound.
>
> Through research on the internet I'm sure these tracks  were studio 
> recorded on
> two well maintained M400s. I've tried  every sort of search I can 
> imagine in
> Google, I've been  hitting the King Crimson fan sites hoping for 
> information.
>  I've learned that RF scuttled an entire 2009 KC West Coast USA tour, 
>  that's
> where I live, over some hurt feelings or something, it's not  clear 
> what, but
> nothing on their mixing  techniques.
>
> I'm listening to The Night Watch as I'm writing  this long question. 
> The sound is
> not any more present, and  actually less megalithic than what I have, 
> but it has
>  time-CLARITY (not just a boost in the 4kHz area) that I cannot seem to  
> achieve,
> along with a slight bit of chorus type phasing I  think.
>
> On the front of the Moody Blues sound, I can't seem to  get my sound as 
> sleepy as
> Mike Pinder can. I understand his  MkII he modified himself, but to my
> understanding he only removed the  pre-amp circuit that boosted the 
> signal at
> 10kHz. The "tone"  knob on M-Tron, as on the real deal (to my 
> understanding) is
>  also at 10kHz and so I keep that real low, around 9'o'clock...
>
>  The sound still isn't there. Infact, it seems too dull and smeared. I 
>  pulled out
> Days of Future Passed and listened to Tuesday Afternoon.  I'm fairly 
> sure the
> lead is "Trumpets and Trombones" doubled  with "MkII Violins" and the 
> harmony is
> "MkII Brass" again  doubled with the violins. However, I'm noticing 
> that the note
>  attacks on the record have more of a harsh garbled attack, and my  
samples
> actually sound more like the instruments sampled than Mr.  Pinder's 
> MkII does. If
> it's a matter of tape cutting I'm sure  I can't do anything about it.
>
> But still that's not entirely  the whole problem. I'm still not getting 
the
> chocolate-smooth sound  that is also hollow and graceful. I asked Mr. 
> Pinder on
> his  own forum, but that was nearly a year ago and I don't think he's 
>  logged in
> to the forum in all this time. His right certainly to do so.  Doesn't 
> solve my
> ignorance though...
>
> Is it a  matter of compression technique? Using a haphazard collection 
> of  all
> digital equipment I don't have access to real-time compression,  only 
> after the
> fact in Audacity and so I tend to avoid  compression as it becomes too 
> much of
> guess-and-check work.  Is there something else I'm missing out on? When 
> it comes
> to  the violin sound I've taken the care to exclusively use what M-Tron 
>  names
> "MkII Vintage Violins" which is by far the highest fidelity  version of 
> that tape
> set the sample set has. It's REALLY  good. Still, I know I'm missing out 
on
> something.
>
> So,  after 3 chapters worth of ranting (damn this is a loooooong 
> question  I've
> got) I ask you all, you who are lucky enough to have and use a  real 
> Mellotron
> (or those who have gotten really good at using  the sample software), 
> for your
> expert opinions and advice.  I've been banging my head into a wall on 
> this one
> and I've  lost confidence that I'll get any further than this on my own.
>
>  Thanks to you all so much, you deserve a cookie or dinner or something  
> for even
> reading through what has got to be one of the  longest emails in the 
> last decade.
>
> -Sean  Lowrie
> _fourtytwominds@fourtytwo_ (mailto:fourtytwominds@yahoo.com)   
<mailto:fourtytwomimailto:fourtmai>
>
>  





**************What's for dinner tonight?  Find quick and easy dinner ideas 
for any occasion. 
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?ncid=emlcntusfood00000008)

I knew that would get a rise out of you, Frank.
jb



MAinPsych@aol.com wrote:

>  
>
> In a message dated 7/20/2009 2:57:17 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
> astroboy@cinci.rr.com writes:
>
>     The consensus is that Tuesday Afternoon is Tenor Sax and Three
>     Violins 
>
> *Fact, not consensus.*
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> .
>
> .
>
>

But, Frank, you're correct - the vast majority of the M-tron samples do 
suck, but to be honest, the Three violins and Tenor Sax don't sound too bad.
jb


lsf5275@aol.com wrote:

>  
>
> I like your answer better than mine, John.
>  
> In a message dated 7/20/2009 5:57:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
> astroboy@cinci.rr.com writes:
>

Hi Sean,

Well.....as the Amish say "God is in the details", as compared to the more secular phrase, "the devil is in the details".? Sadly, you don't have a tron or even, more importantly, the beautiful old tube equipment that was probably used on the recordings you referenced. Also remember you are referencing a tron sound mixed in a recording so I guarantee you your ear is being tricked by the rest of the recording. 

?My advice? Bag trying to nail the exact sound and EQ, compress and effect your sound in the mix of what you are working on whether it be live or in a recording enviroment.? Try some more oddball methods like outputting the dry tron signal to a bass amp, guitar amp or your own monitoring system and rerecord it.? I just happened upon a leslie 145 and that really does wonders to a tron, or most anything for that matter. 

I have found that negative EQ works best. Go drastic to start and then spend some time really nailing the sweet spot.? Subtle tweaks of the EQ bandwidth, Q, can do magic once you are in the ballpark of the frequencies you want. 

Hope this helps.


fritz

-----Original Message-----
From: fourtytwominds <fourtytwominds@yahoo.com>
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Jul 20, 2009 5:26 pm
Subject: [newmellotrongroup] Hello to all. Questions about mixing.






















    

                  
Hello all.



My name is Sean Lowrie. Sadly I do not own a 'tron, just the M-Tron samples; a

MkVI is on my wish list. I've asked this question at the "Mellotronists" group and a member there suggested I should ask this group as well.



I've had the samples for about a year and a half and I'm still trying to come up

with the correct signal handling and mixing to get the megalithic Moody Blues

and King Crimson sounds I'm used to.



Last week I made a breakthrough. I'm currently splitting the output and taking

that into to separate unbalanced inputs on my small multitrack mixer. First

channel I leave dry, cut the low and high, and boost the mid range. The second

channel I send all the signal to the internal effects unit on this board for

reverb. (It's an Alesis board and I'm fairly happy with their electronic reverb

circuitry, which even creates slightly different results for left and right

channels) I have this signal boosted in lows and highs but scooped in the mid

range: an approximate mirror of the dry channel settings. On my board L is 80Hz,

M is 2.5kHz, and H is 12kHz. I'm getting fairly close to the sound I want,

fairly close indeed, but I'm not there. I finally have the presence and in

general a megalithic quality in sound.



What I don't have is the chocolate-smooth sound that I'm used to out of King

Crimson. I'm thinking specifically the studio tracks "Lament" and "The Night

Watch" from the 1974 album Starless and Bible Black. When I listen to these

tracks I notice that the sound has more... for lack of a better term "breath."

The sound seems to be of much higher fidelity than I'm used to out of the

Mellotron while still retaining the distinctive Mellotron sound.



Through research on the internet I'm sure these tracks were studio recorded on

two well maintained M400s. I've tried every sort of search I can imagine in

Google, I've been hitting the King Crimson fan sites hoping for information.

I've learned that RF scuttled an entire 2009 KC West Coast USA tour, that's

where I live, over some hurt feelings or something, it's not clear what, but

nothing on their mixing techniques.



I'm listening to The Night Watch as I'm writing this long question. The sound is

not any more present, and actually less megalithic than what I have, but it has

time-CLARITY (not just a boost in the 4kHz area) that I cannot seem to achieve,

along with a slight bit of chorus type phasing I think.



On the front of the Moody Blues sound, I can't seem to get my sound as sleepy as

Mike Pinder can. I understand his MkII he modified himself, but to my

understanding he only removed the pre-amp circuit that boosted the signal at

10kHz. The "tone" knob on M-Tron, as on the real deal (to my understanding) is

also at 10kHz and so I keep that real low, around 9'o'clock...



The sound still isn't there. Infact, it seems too dull and smeared. I pulled out

Days of Future Passed and listened to Tuesday Afternoon. I'm fairly sure the

lead is "Trumpets and Trombones" doubled with "MkII Violins" and the harmony is

"MkII Brass" again doubled with the violins. However, I'm noticing that the note

attacks on the record have more of a harsh garbled attack, and my samples

actually sound more like the instruments sampled than Mr. Pinder's MkII does. If

it's a matter of tape cutting I'm sure I can't do anything about it.



But still that's not entirely the whole problem. I'm still not getting the

chocolate-smooth sound that is also hollow and graceful. I asked Mr. Pinder on

his own forum, but that was nearly a year ago and I don't think he's logged in

to the forum in all this time. His right certainly to do so. Doesn't solve my

ignorance though...



Is it a matter of compression technique? Using a haphazard collection of all

digital equipment I don't have access to real-time compression, only after the

fact in Audacity and so I tend to avoid compression as it becomes too much of

guess-and-check work. Is there something else I'm missing out on? When it comes

to the violin sound I've taken the care to exclusively use what M-Tron names

"MkII Vintage Violins" which is by far the highest fidelity version of that tape

set the sample set has. It's REALLY good. Still, I know I'm missing out on

something.



So, after 3 chapters worth of ranting (damn this is a loooooong question I've

got) I ask you all, you who are lucky enough to have and use a real Mellotron

(or those who have gotten really good at using the sample software), for your

expert opinions and advice. I've been banging my head into a wall on this one

and I've lost confidence that I'll get any further than this on my own.



Thanks to you all so much, you deserve a cookie or dinner or something for even

reading through what has got to be one of the longest emails in the last decade.



-Sean Lowrie

fourtytwominds@yahoo.com

As Fritz' music is finely crafted, wonderfully composed and arranged,
performed and recorded beautifully, I would take his advice!

 

partune

M400 #872

  _____  

From: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of fdoddy@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 8:18 AM
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Hello to all. Questions about mixing.

 

  

Hi Sean,

Well.....as the Amish say "God is in the details", as compared to the more
secular phrase, "the devil is in the details".  Sadly, you don't have a tron
or even, more importantly, the beautiful old tube equipment that was
probably used on the recordings you referenced. Also remember you are
referencing a tron sound mixed in a recording so I guarantee you your ear is
being tricked by the rest of the recording. 

 My advice? Bag trying to nail the exact sound and EQ, compress and effect
your sound in the mix of what you are working on whether it be live or in a
recording enviroment.  Try some more oddball methods like outputting the dry
tron signal to a bass amp, guitar amp or your own monitoring system and
rerecord it.  I just happened upon a leslie 145 and that really does wonders
to a tron, or most anything for that matter. 

I have found that negative EQ works best. Go drastic to start and then spend
some time really nailing the sweet spot.  Subtle tweaks of the EQ bandwidth,
Q, can do magic once you are in the ballpark of the frequencies you want. 

Hope this helps.


fritz

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: fourtytwominds <fourtytwominds@yahoo.com>
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Jul 20, 2009 5:26 pm
Subject: [newmellotrongroup] Hello to all. Questions about mixing.

  

Hello all.

My name is Sean Lowrie. Sadly I do not own a 'tron, just the M-Tron samples;
a
MkVI is on my wish list. I've asked this question at the "Mellotronists"
group and a member there suggested I should ask this group as well.

I've had the samples for about a year and a half and I'm still trying to
come up
with the correct signal handling and mixing to get the megalithic Moody
Blues
and King Crimson sounds I'm used to.

Last week I made a breakthrough. I'm currently splitting the output and
taking
that into to separate unbalanced inputs on my small multitrack mixer. First
channel I leave dry, cut the low and high, and boost the mid range. The
second
channel I send all the signal to the internal effects unit on this board for
reverb. (It's an Alesis board and I'm fairly happy with their electronic
reverb
circuitry, which even creates slightly different results for left and right
channels) I have this signal boosted in lows and highs but scooped in the
mid
range: an approximate mirror of the dry channel settings. On my board L is
80Hz,
M is 2.5kHz, and H is 12kHz. I'm getting fairly close to the sound I want,
fairly close indeed, but I'm not there. I finally have the presence and in
general a megalithic quality in sound.

What I don't have is the chocolate-smooth sound that I'm used to out of King
Crimson. I'm thinking specifically the studio tracks "Lament" and "The Night
Watch" from the 1974 album Starless and Bible Black. When I listen to these
tracks I notice that the sound has more... for lack of a better term
"breath."
The sound seems to be of much higher fidelity than I'm used to out of the
Mellotron while still retaining the distinctive Mellotron sound.

Through research on the internet I'm sure these tracks were studio recorded
on
two well maintained M400s. I've tried every sort of search I can imagine in
Google, I've been hitting the King Crimson fan sites hoping for information.
I've learned that RF scuttled an entire 2009 KC West Coast USA tour, that's
where I live, over some hurt feelings or something, it's not clear what, but
nothing on their mixing techniques.

I'm listening to The Night Watch as I'm writing this long question. The
sound is
not any more present, and actually less megalithic than what I have, but it
has
time-CLARITY (not just a boost in the 4kHz area) that I cannot seem to
achieve,
along with a slight bit of chorus type phasing I think.

On the front of the Moody Blues sound, I can't seem to get my sound as
sleepy as
Mike Pinder can. I understand his MkII he modified himself, but to my
understanding he only removed the pre-amp circuit that boosted the signal at
10kHz. The "tone" knob on M-Tron, as on the real deal (to my understanding)
is
also at 10kHz and so I keep that real low, around 9'o'clock...

The sound still isn't there. Infact, it seems too dull and smeared. I pulled
out
Days of Future Passed and listened to Tuesday Afternoon. I'm fairly sure the
lead is "Trumpets and Trombones" doubled with "MkII Violins" and the harmony
is
"MkII Brass" again doubled with the violins. However, I'm noticing that the
note
attacks on the record have more of a harsh garbled attack, and my samples
actually sound more like the instruments sampled than Mr. Pinder's MkII
does. If
it's a matter of tape cutting I'm sure I can't do anything about it.

But still that's not entirely the whole problem. I'm still not getting the
chocolate-smooth sound that is also hollow and graceful. I asked Mr. Pinder
on
his own forum, but that was nearly a year ago and I don't think he's logged
in
to the forum in all this time. His right certainly to do so. Doesn't solve
my
ignorance though...

Is it a matter of compression technique? Using a haphazard collection of all
digital equipment I don't have access to real-time compression, only after
the
fact in Audacity and so I tend to avoid compression as it becomes too much
of
guess-and-check work. Is there something else I'm missing out on? When it
comes
to the violin sound I've taken the care to exclusively use what M-Tron names
"MkII Vintage Violins" which is by far the highest fidelity version of that
tape
set the sample set has. It's REALLY good. Still, I know I'm missing out on
something.

So, after 3 chapters worth of ranting (damn this is a loooooong question
I've
got) I ask you all, you who are lucky enough to have and use a real
Mellotron
(or those who have gotten really good at using the sample software), for
your
expert opinions and advice. I've been banging my head into a wall on this
one
and I've lost confidence that I'll get any further than this on my own.

Thanks to you all so much, you deserve a cookie or dinner or something for
even
reading through what has got to be one of the longest emails in the last
decade.

-Sean Lowrie
fourtytwominds@ <mailto:fourtytwominds%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com

 

  _____  

One-click access to hundreds of free games. Get
<http://toolbar.aol.com/games/download.html?ncid=emlweusdown00000040>  the
Games.com Toolbar.

I agree. Still waiting for that new album though

Bernie

--- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, "James Parthun" wrote:
>
> As Fritz' music is finely crafted, wonderfully composed and arranged,
> performed and recorded beautifully, I would take his advice!
>
>
>
> partune
>
> M400 #872
>
>; _____
>
> From: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of fdoddy@...
> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 8:18 AM
> To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Hello to all. Questions about mixing.
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Sean,
>
> Well.....as the Amish say "God is in the details", as compared to the more
> secular phrase, "the devil is in the details". Sadly, you don't have a tron
> or even, more importantly, the beautiful old tube equipment that was
> probably used on the recordings you referenced. Also remember you are
> referencing a tron sound mixed in a recording so I guarantee you your ear is
> being tricked by the rest of the recording.
>
> My advice? Bag trying to nail the exact sound and EQ, compress and effect
> your sound in the mix of what you are working on whether it be live or in a
> recording enviroment. Try some more oddball methods like outputting the dry
> tron signal to a bass amp, guitar amp or your own monitoring system and
> rerecord it. I just happened upon a leslie 145 and that really does wonders
> to a tron, or most anything for that matter.
>
> I have found that negative EQ works best. Go drastic to start and then spend
> some time really nailing the sweet spot. Subtle tweaks of the EQ bandwidth,
> Q, can do magic once you are in the ballpark of the frequencies you want.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
> fritz
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fourtytwominds fourtytwominds@...
> To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, Jul 20, 2009 5:26 pm
> Subject: [newmellotrongroup] Hello to all. Questions about mixing.
>
>;
>
> Hello all.
>
> My name is Sean Lowrie. Sadly I do not own a 'tron, just the M-Tron samples;
> a
> MkVI is on my wish list. I've asked this question at the "Mellotronists"
> group and a member there suggested I should ask this group as well.
>
> I've had the samples for about a year and a half and I'm still trying to
> come up
> with the correct signal handling and mixing to get the megalithic Moody
> Blues
> and King Crimson sounds I'm used to.
>
> Last week I made a breakthrough. I'm currently splitting the output and
> taking
> that into to separate unbalanced inputs on my small multitrack mixer. First
> channel I leave dry, cut the low and high, and boost the mid range. The
> second
> channel I send all the signal to the internal effects unit on this board for
> reverb. (It's an Alesis board and I'm fairly happy with their electronic
> reverb
> circuitry, which even creates slightly different results for left and right
> channels) I have this signal boosted in lows and highs but scooped in the
> mid
> range: an approximate mirror of the dry channel settings. On my board L is
> 80Hz,
> M is 2.5kHz, and H is 12kHz. I'm getting fairly close to the sound I want,
> fairly close indeed, but I'm not there. I finally have the presence and in
> general a megalithic quality in sound.
>
> What I don't have is the chocolate-smooth sound that I'm used to out of King
> Crimson. I'm thinking specifically the studio tracks "Lament" and "The Night
> Watch" from the 1974 album Starless and Bible Black. When I listen to these
> tracks I notice that the sound has more... for lack of a better term
> "breath."
> The sound seems to be of much higher fidelity than I'm used to out of the
> Mellotron while still retaining the distinctive Mellotron sound.
>
> Through research on the internet I'm sure these tracks were studio recorded
> on
> two well maintained M400s. I've tried every sort of search I can imagine in
> Google, I've been hitting the King Crimson fan sites hoping for information.
> I've learned that RF scuttled an entire 2009 KC West Coast USA tour, that's
> where I live, over some hurt feelings or something, it's not clear what, but
> nothing on their mixing techniques.
>
> I'm listening to The Night Watch as I'm writing this long question. The
> sound is
> not any more present, and actually less megalithic than what I have, but it
> has
> time-CLARITY (not just a boost in the 4kHz area) that I cannot seem to
>; achieve,
> along with a slight bit of chorus type phasing I think.
>
> On the front of the Moody Blues sound, I can't seem to get my sound as
> sleepy as
> Mike Pinder can. I understand his MkII he modified himself, but to my
> understanding he only removed the pre-amp circuit that boosted the signal at
> 10kHz. The "tone" knob on M-Tron, as on the real deal (to my understanding)
> is
> also at 10kHz and so I keep that real low, around 9'o'clock...
>
>; The sound still isn't there. Infact, it seems too dull and smeared. I pulled
> out
> Days of Future Passed and listened to Tuesday Afternoon. I'm fairly sure the
> lead is "Trumpets and Trombones" doubled with "MkII Violins" and the harmony
> is
> "MkII Brass" again doubled with the violins. However, I'm noticing that the
> note
>; attacks on the record have more of a harsh garbled attack, and my samples
> actually sound more like the instruments sampled than Mr. Pinder's MkII
> does. If
> it's a matter of tape cutting I'm sure I can't do anything about it.
>
> But still that's not entirely the whole problem. I'm still not getting the
> chocolate-smooth sound that is also hollow and graceful. I asked Mr. Pinder
> on
> his own forum, but that was nearly a year ago and I don't think he's logged
> in
> to the forum in all this time. His right certainly to do so. Doesn't solve
> my
> ignorance though...
>
> Is it a matter of compression technique? Using a haphazard collection of all
> digital equipment I don't have access to real-time compression, only after
> the
> fact in Audacity and so I tend to avoid compression as it becomes too much
> of
> guess-and-check work. Is there something else I'm missing out on? When it
> comes
> to the violin sound I've taken the care to exclusively use what M-Tron names
> "MkII Vintage Violins" which is by far the highest fidelity version of that
> tape
> set the sample set has. It's REALLY good. Still, I know I'm missing out on
> something.
>
> So, after 3 chapters worth of ranting (damn this is a loooooong question
> I've
> got) I ask you all, you who are lucky enough to have and use a real
> Mellotron
> (or those who have gotten really good at using the sample software), for
> your
> expert opinions and advice. I've been banging my head into a wall on this
> one
> and I've lost confidence that I'll get any further than this on my own.
>
> Thanks to you all so much, you deserve a cookie or dinner or something for
> even
> reading through what has got to be one of the longest emails in the last
> decade.
>
> -Sean Lowrie
> fourtytwominds@ yahoo.com
>
>
>
> _____
>
> One-click access to hundreds of free games. Get
> the
> Games.com Toolbar.
>

I'm seven songs in with an eighth itching to get started.? I'll keep you posted and I might post some snips if I feel brave :>)


 


 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bernie <kornowicz@cox.net>
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, Jul 21, 2009 11:53 am
Subject: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Hello to all. Questions about mixing.






















    

                  


I agree. ?Still waiting for that new album though 


Bernie



--- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, "James Parthun" <james.parthun@...> wrote:
>
> As Fritz' music is finely crafted, wonderfully composed and arranged,
> performed and recorded beautifully, I would take his advice!
> 
> 
> 
> partune
> 
> M400 #872
> 
> _____ 
> 
> From: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of fdoddy@...
> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 8:18 AM
> To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Hello to all. Questions about mixing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Sean,
> 
> Well.....as the Amish say "God is in the details", as compared to the more
> secular phrase, "the devil is in the details". Sadly, you don't have a tron
> or even, more importantly, the beautiful old tube equipment that was
> probably used on the recordings you referenced. Also remember you are
> referencing a tron sound mixed in a recording so I guarantee you your ear is
> being tricked by the rest of the recording. 
> 
> My advice? Bag trying to nail the exact sound and EQ, compress and effect
> your sound in the mix of what you are working on whether it be live or in a
> recording enviroment. Try some more oddball methods like outputting the dry
> tron signal to a bass amp, guitar amp or your own monitoring system and
> rerecord it. I just happened upon a leslie 145 and that really does wonders
> to a tron, or most anything for that matter. 
> 
> I have found that negative EQ works best. Go drastic to start and then spend
> some time really nailing the sweet spot. Subtle tweaks of the EQ bandwidth,
> Q, can do magic once you are in the ballpark of the frequencies you want. 
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> 
> fritz
> 
> > 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fourtytwominds fourtytwominds@...
> To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, Jul 20, 2009 5:26 pm
> Subject: [newmellotrongroup] Hello to all. Questions about mixing.
> 
> 
> 
> Hello all.
> 
> My name is Sean Lowrie. Sadly I do not own a 'tron, just the M-Tron samples;
> a
> MkVI is on my wish list. I've asked this question at the "Mellotronists"
> group and a member there suggested I should ask this group as well.
> 
> I've had the samples for about a year and a half and I'm still trying to
> come up
> with the correct signal handling and mixing to get the megalithic Moody
> Blues
> and King Crimson sounds I'm used to.
> 
> Last week I made a breakthrough. I'm currently splitting the output and
> taking
> that into to separate unbalanced inputs on my small multitrack mixer. First
> channel I leave dry, cut the low and high, and boost the mid range. The
> second
> channel I send all the signal to the internal effects unit on this board for
> reverb. (It's an Alesis board and I'm fairly happy with their electronic
> reverb
> circuitry, which even creates slightly different results for left and right
> channels) I have this signal boosted in lows and highs but scooped in the
> mid
> range: an approximate mirror of the dry channel settings. On my board L is
> 80Hz,
> M is 2.5kHz, and H is 12kHz. I'm getting fairly close to the sound I want,
> fairly close indeed, but I'm not there. I finally have the presence and in
> general a megalithic quality in sound.
> 
> What I don't have is the chocolate-smooth sound that I'm used to out of King
> Crimson. I'm thinking specifically the studio tracks "Lament" and "The Night
> Watch" from the 1974 album Starless and Bible Black. When I listen to 
these
> tracks I notice that the sound has more... for lack of a better term
> "breath."
> The sound seems to be of much higher fidelity than I'm used to out of the
> Mellotron while still retaining the distinctive Mellotron sound.
> 
> Through research on the internet I'm sure these tracks were studio recorded
> on
> two well maintained M400s. I've tried every sort of search I can imagine in
> Google, I've been hitting the King Crimson fan sites hoping for information.
> I've learned that RF scuttled an entire 2009 KC West Coast USA tour, that's
> where I live, over some hurt feelings or something, it's not clear what, but
> nothing on their mixing techniques.
> 
> I'm listening to The Night Watch as I'm writing this long question. The
> sound is
> not any more present, and actually less megalithic than what I have, but it
> has
> time-CLARITY (not just a boost in the 4kHz area) that I cannot seem to
> achieve,
> along with a slight bit of chorus type phasing I think.
> 
> On the front of the Moody Blues sound, I can't seem to get my sound as
> sleepy as
> Mike Pinder can. I understand his MkII he modified himself, but to my
> understanding he only removed the pre-amp circuit that boosted the signal at
> 10kHz. The "tone" knob on M-Tron, as on the real deal (to my understanding)
> is
> also at 10kHz and so I keep that real low, around 9'o'clock...
> 
> The sound still isn't there. Infact, it seems too dull and smeared. I pulled
> out
> Days of Future Passed and listened to Tuesday Afternoon. I'm fairly sure the
> lead is "Trumpets and Trombones" doubled with "MkII Violins" and the harmony
> is
> "MkII Brass" again doubled with the violins. However, I'm noticing that the
> note
> attacks on the record have more of a harsh garbled attack, and my samples
> actually sound more like the instr
uments sampled than Mr. Pinder's MkII
> does. If
> it's a matter of tape cutting I'm sure I can't do anything about it.
> 
> But still that's not entirely the whole problem. I'm still not getting the
> chocolate-smooth sound that is also hollow and graceful. I asked Mr. Pinder
> on
> his own forum, but that was nearly a year ago and I don't think he's logged
> in
> to the forum in all this time. His right certainly to do so. Doesn't solve
> my
> ignorance though...
> 
> Is it a matter of compression technique? Using a haphazard collection of all
> digital equipment I don't have access to real-time compression, only after
> the
> fact in Audacity and so I tend to avoid compression as it becomes too much
> of
> guess-and-check work. Is there something else I'm missing out on? When it
> comes
> to the violin sound I've taken the care to exclusively use what M-Tron names
> "MkII Vintage Violins" which is by far the highest fidelity version of that
> tape
> set the sample set has. It's REALLY good. Still, I know I'm missing out on
> something.
> 
> So, after 3 chapters worth of ranting (damn this is a loooooong question
> I've
> got) I ask you all, you who are lucky enough to have and use a real
> Mellotron
> (or those who have gotten really good at using the sample software), for
> your
> expert opinions and advice. I've been banging my head into a wall on this
> one
> and I've lost confidence that I'll get any further than this on my own.
> 
> Thanks to you all so much, you deserve a cookie or dinner or something for
> even
> reading through what has got to be one of the longest emails in the last
> decade.
> 
> -Sean Lowrie
> fourtytwominds@ <mailto:fourtytwominds%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> _____ 
> 
> One-cl
ick access to hundreds of free games. Get

> <http://toolbar.aol.com/games/download.html?ncid=emlweusdown00000040> the
> Games.com Toolbar.
>

Thanks all who have replied.

It's given me some new ideas, and has sent me to the right combination of tapes for the sleepy-Pinder sound. On that one I was previously wondering about the elegance of using Trumpets/Trombones, MkII Brass, and MkII Violins. He would have to use at least one overdub and then how does he make three sounds come out of a MkII live? Your information is more elegant, Tenor Sax on the left, Violin on the right, no problem live.

I'll try going back to playing my samples through my guitar amp when I'm trying to emulate sounds I'm used to. I've only got a solid state 2x12" 120W combo by Crate. I like the sound for guitar but I'm thinking of contacting my band director friends and borrowing their tube equipment when it's serious Mellotron recording time.

Fritz mentioned doing oddball things. That reminded me, I've got an idea to share. Try taking your 'tron through a guitar-fuzz pedal before it gets to your volume pedal. I've used both my NYC Big Muff and the built in channels on my guitar combo amp, without much appreciable difference. I recommend doing this on the bassoon, Mk II flute, and Mk II Organ #2 (the Lawrence Welk type warbly one) tapes. For the last two it yields a mean acid organ sound, and the flutes especially bring out intermodulation/difference tones. The bassoon sounds absolutely wicked if played in one octave spacing; singular notes and other intervals: not so great.

I'll have to go try using very mild amounts of gain on some of my favorite channels and see if I get that harsh biting sound I've heard from early era Mellotron recordings (like Graham Bond Organisation and such)

Thanks again for the help everyone!

-Sean

(Oh lordy is it really eight months since I last logged on here?  Gah!  Hi everyone.)

If it's any use to you, I mocked up the Tuesday Afternoon Mellotron parts last year when this question came up before - you can hear them here:

http://thinking-aloud.co.uk/playsong.php?TuesdayAftertron.mp3

On this one I've used the Mellotron Archives CD samples for both voices.  The EQ chops all the top and bottom off, with a bit of a boost in the middle.  There's a bit of reverb on both sides.  (Interestingly, after doing this, I came across a partial recording of Tuesday Afternoon from (presumably) an 8-track version, which had just the Mellotron parts in exactly the same way.)

For the later Pinderesque sound, as it got mellower, I've used a wetter reverb (more reverb than dry signal) which gives the sounds you can hear in this track (which is all M-Tron):

http://thinking-aloud.co.uk/playsong.php?Out_And_In.mp3

(I did this track just to see how close I could get to the original recording.  Please excuse the singing - I had a dreadful cold at the time!)

Tron sounds of this ilk can be found on other tracks on the website there - click the header to go to the main page.

Hope that's of some interest to someone!

Owen



--- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, "fourtytwominds" <fourtytwominds@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks all who have replied.
> 
> It's given me some new ideas, and has sent me to the right combination of tapes for the sleepy-Pinder sound. On that one I was previously wondering about the elegance of using Trumpets/Trombones, MkII Brass, and MkII Violins. He would have to use at least one overdub and then how does he make three sounds come out of a MkII live? Your information is more elegant, Tenor Sax on the left, Violin on the right, no problem live.
> 
> I'll try going back to playing my samples through my guitar amp when I'm trying to emulate sounds I'm used to. I've only got a solid state 2x12" 120W combo by Crate. I like the sound for guitar but I'm thinking of contacting my band director friends and borrowing their tube equipment when it's serious Mellotron recording time.
> 
> Fritz mentioned doing oddball things. That reminded me, I've got an idea to share. Try taking your 'tron through a guitar-fuzz pedal before it gets to your volume pedal. I've used both my NYC Big Muff and the built in channels on my guitar combo amp, without much appreciable difference. I recommend doing this on the bassoon, Mk II flute, and Mk II Organ #2 (the Lawrence Welk type warbly one) tapes. For the last two it yields a mean acid organ sound, and the flutes especially bring out intermodulation/difference tones. The bassoon sounds absolutely wicked if played in one octave spacing; singular notes and other intervals: not so great.
> 
> I'll have to go try using very mild amounts of gain on some of my favorite channels and see if I get that harsh biting sound I've heard from early era Mellotron recordings (like Graham Bond Organisation and such)
> 
> Thanks again for the help everyone!
> 
> -Sean
>

This gave me the same chills when I hear the real deal.   Great job!   And 
you do sound like Pinder on Out and In.   Need a drummer?
Bill "the Doctor" Rudloff

In a message dated 7/31/09 2:01:38 PM, owen@thinking-aloud.co.uk writes:


> 
> (Oh lordy is it really eight months since I last logged on here? Gah! Hi 
> everyone.)
> 
> If it's any use to you, I mocked up the Tuesday Afternoon Mellotron parts 
> last year when this question came up before - you can hear them here:
> 
> http://thinking-http://thhttp://thinkhttp://thinking-http://t
> 
> On this one I've used the Mellotron Archives CD samples for both voices. 
> The EQ chops all the top and bottom off, with a bit of a boost in the 
> middle. There's a bit of reverb on both sides. (Interestingly, after doing this, 
> I came across a partial recording of Tuesday Afternoon from (presumably) an 
> 8-track version, which had just the Mellotron parts in exactly the same 
> way.)
> 
> For the later Pinderesque sound, as it got mellower, I've used a wetter 
> reverb (more reverb than dry signal) which gives the sounds you can hear in 
> this track (which is all M-Tron):
> 
> http://thinking-http://thhttp://thinkhttp://thinkhttp:/
> 
> (I did this track just to see how close I could get to the original 
> recording. Please excuse the singing - I had a dreadful cold at the time!)
> 
> Tron sounds of this ilk can be found on other tracks on the website there 
> - click the header to go to the main page.
> 
> Hope that's of some interest to someone!
> 
> Owen


**************
A bad credit score is 600 & below. Checking won't affect 
your score. See now! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&
hmpgID=62&bcd=JulyBadfooterNO62)

I remember when you first posted these links way back when. It was when I questioned the brass sound in Tuesday Afternoon, thinking it was the MkII brass. Great job!

Bernie

---- thinkingalouduk <owen@thinking-aloud.co.uk> wrote: 

> (Oh lordy is it really eight months since I last logged on here?  Gah!  Hi everyone.)
> 
> If it's any use to you, I mocked up the Tuesday Afternoon Mellotron parts last year when this question came up before - you can hear them here:
> 
> http://thinking-aloud.co.uk/playsong.php?TuesdayAftertron.mp3
> 
> On this one I've used the Mellotron Archives CD samples for both voices.  The EQ chops all the top and bottom off, with a bit of a boost in the middle.  There's a bit of reverb on both sides.  (Interestingly, after doing this, I came across a partial recording of Tuesday Afternoon from (presumably) an 8-track version, which had just the Mellotron parts in exactly the same way.)
> 
> For the later Pinderesque sound, as it got mellower, I've used a wetter reverb (more reverb than dry signal) which gives the sounds you can hear in this track (which is all M-Tron):
> 
> http://thinking-aloud.co.uk/playsong.php?Out_And_In.mp3
> 
> (I did this track just to see how close I could get to the original recording.  Please excuse the singing - I had a dreadful cold at the time!)
> 
> Tron sounds of this ilk can be found on other tracks on the website there - click the header to go to the main page.
> 
> Hope that's of some interest to someone!
> 
> Owen
> 
> 
> 
> --- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, "fourtytwominds" <fourtytwominds@...> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks all who have replied.
> > 
> > It's given me some new ideas, and has sent me to the right combination of tapes for the sleepy-Pinder sound. On that one I was previously wondering about the elegance of using Trumpets/Trombones, MkII Brass, and MkII Violins. He would have to use at least one overdub and then how does he make three sounds come out of a MkII live? Your information is more elegant, Tenor Sax on the left, Violin on the right, no problem live.
> > 
> > I'll try going back to playing my samples through my guitar amp when I'm trying to emulate sounds I'm used to. I've only got a solid state 2x12" 120W combo by Crate. I like the sound for guitar but I'm thinking of contacting my band director friends and borrowing their tube equipment when it's serious Mellotron recording time.
> > 
> > Fritz mentioned doing oddball things. That reminded me, I've got an idea to share. Try taking your 'tron through a guitar-fuzz pedal before it gets to your volume pedal. I've used both my NYC Big Muff and the built in channels on my guitar combo amp, without much appreciable difference. I recommend doing this on the bassoon, Mk II flute, and Mk II Organ #2 (the Lawrence Welk type warbly one) tapes. For the last two it yields a mean acid organ sound, and the flutes especially bring out intermodulation/difference tones. The bassoon sounds absolutely wicked if played in one octave spacing; singular notes and other intervals: not so great.
> > 
> > I'll have to go try using very mild amounts of gain on some of my favorite channels and see if I get that harsh biting sound I've heard from early era Mellotron recordings (like Graham Bond Organisation and such)
> > 
> > Thanks again for the help everyone!
> > 
> > -Sean
> >
>

Nice...and the second one.beautifully done!

Serene and down right stratospheric.

( it's my favorite Mellotron tune actually).

 

What I would give just to be able to play that...even just 8 seconds.

 

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of doctorwho8@aol.com
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 3:27 PM
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Re: Hello to all. Questions about mixing.

 

  

This gave me the same chills when I hear the real deal.  Great job!  And you
do sound like Pinder on Out and In.  Need a drummer?
Bill "the Doctor" Rudloff

In a message dated 7/31/09 2:01:38 PM, owen@thinking-aloud.co.uk writes:




(Oh lordy is it really eight months since I last logged on here? Gah! Hi
everyone.)

If it's any use to you, I mocked up the Tuesday Afternoon Mellotron parts
last year when this question came up before - you can hear them here:

http://thinking-
<http://thinking-aloud.co.uk/playsong.php?TuesdayAftertron.mp3>
http://thhttp://thinkhttp://thinking-http://t

On this one I've used the Mellotron Archives CD samples for both voices. The
EQ chops all the top and bottom off, with a bit of a boost in the middle.
There's a bit of reverb on both sides. (Interestingly, after doing this, I
came across a partial recording of Tuesday Afternoon from (presumably) an
8-track version, which had just the Mellotron parts in exactly the same
way.)

For the later Pinderesque sound, as it got mellower, I've used a wetter
reverb (more reverb than dry signal) which gives the sounds you can hear in
this track (which is all M-Tron):

http://thinking- <http://thinking-aloud.co.uk/playsong.php?Out_And_In.mp3>
http://thhttp://thinkhttp://thinkhttp:/

(I did this track just to see how close I could get to the original
recording. Please excuse the singing - I had a dreadful cold at the time!)

Tron sounds of this ilk can be found on other tracks on the website there -
click the header to go to the main page.

Hope that's of some interest to someone!

Owen


**************
A bad credit score is 600 & below. Checking won't affect your score. See
now!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222846709x1201493018/aol?redir=htt
p://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=JulyBad
footerNO62) 



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.38/2274 - Release Date: 07/31/09
05:58:00

That's really great, Owen. Thanks for sharing.
 
Frank
 
 
In a message dated 7/31/2009 3:01:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
owen@thinking-aloud.co.uk writes:

 
 
 
(Oh lordy is it really eight months since I last logged on here? Gah! Hi  
everyone.)

If it's any use to you, I mocked up the Tuesday Afternoon  Mellotron parts 
last year when this question came up before - you can hear  them here:

_http://thinking-http://thhttp://thinkhttp://thinking-http://t_ 
(http://thinking-aloud.co.uk/playsong.php?TuesdayAftertron.mp3) 

On  this one I've used the Mellotron Archives CD samples for both voices. 
The EQ  chops all the top and bottom off, with a bit of a boost in the 
middle. There's  a bit of reverb on both sides. (Interestingly, after doing this, 
I came across  a partial recording of Tuesday Afternoon from (presumably) an 
8-track version,  which had just the Mellotron parts in exactly the same 
way.)

For the  later Pinderesque sound, as it got mellower, I've used a wetter 
reverb (more  reverb than dry signal) which gives the sounds you can hear in 
this track  (which is all M-Tron):

_http://thinking-http://thhttp://thinkhttp://thinkhttp:/_ 
(http://thinking-aloud.co.uk/playsong.php?Out_And_In.mp3) 

(I  did this track just to see how close I could get to the original 
recording.  Please excuse the singing - I had a dreadful cold at the time!)

Tron  sounds of this ilk can be found on other tracks on the website there 
- click  the header to go to the main page.

Hope that's of some interest to  someone!

Owen

--- In _newmellotrongroup@newmellotronnew_ 
(mailto:newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com) ,  "fourtytwominds" <fourtytwominds@fou> wrote:
>
> Thanks  all who have replied.
> 
> It's given me some new ideas, and has  sent me to the right combination 
of tapes for the sleepy-Pinder sound. On that  one I was previously wondering 
about the elegance of using Trumpets/Trombones,  MkII Brass, and MkII 
Violins. He would have to use at least one overdub and  then how does he make 
three sounds come out of a MkII live? Your information  is more elegant, Tenor 
Sax on the left, Violin on the right, no problem  live.
> 
> I'll try going back to playing my samples through my  guitar amp when I'm 
trying to emulate sounds I'm used to. I've only got a  solid state 2x12" 
120W combo by Crate. I like the sound for guitar but I'm  thinking of 
contacting my band director friends and borrowing their tube  equipment when it's 
serious Mellotron recording time.
> 
> Fritz  mentioned doing oddball things. That reminded me, I've got an idea 
to share.  Try taking your 'tron through a guitar-fuzz pedal before it gets 
to your  volume pedal. I've used both my NYC Big Muff and the built in 
channels on my  guitar combo amp, without much appreciable difference. I 
recommend doing this  on the bassoon, Mk II flute, and Mk II Organ #2 (the Lawrence 
Welk type warbly  one) tapes. For the last two it yields a mean acid organ 
sound, and the flutes  especially bring out intermodulation/ Fritz  
mentioned doing oddball things. That reminded me, I've got an idea to share.  Try 
taking your 'tron through a guitar-fuzz pedal bef
> 
> I'll have to go try using very mild  amounts of gain on some of my 
favorite channels and see if I get that harsh  biting sound I've heard from early 
era Mellotron recordings (like Graham Bond  Organisation and such)
> 
> Thanks again for the help  everyone!
> 
> -Sean
>





**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
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=JulystepsfooterNO115)

Thanks all!  Glad it was of some interest.

Incidentally, for Out and In, if I recall correctly, the are two main Tron parts which you can think of as "upper" and "lower" - both of these were doubled using different versions of the M-Tron 3 Violins (the original also seems to show this doubling for the main parts).  An extra 3 Violins track was used for the descending run on the fade out.  So five tracks in total.

One of these days I'll try to reproduce the Chamberlins from "Lost in a Lost World".  Gulp.

Thanks again,

Owen

Owen,
Beautiful job on Out and In.
Pete

thinkingalouduk wrote:

> (Oh lordy is it really eight months since I last logged on here?  Gah!  Hi everyone.)
>
> If it's any use to you, I mocked up the Tuesday Afternoon Mellotron parts last year when this question came up before - you can hear them here:
>
> http://thinking-aloud.co.uk/playsong.php?TuesdayAftertron.mp3
>
> On this one I've used the Mellotron Archives CD samples for both voices.  The EQ chops all the top and bottom off, with a bit of a boost in the middle.  There's a bit of reverb on both sides.  (Interestingly, after doing this, I came across a partial recording of Tuesday Afternoon from (presumably) an 8-track version, which had just the Mellotron parts in exactly the same way.)
>
> For the later Pinderesque sound, as it got mellower, I've used a wetter reverb (more reverb than dry signal) which gives the sounds you can hear in this track (which is all M-Tron):
>
> http://thinking-aloud.co.uk/playsong.php?Out_And_In.mp3
>
> (I did this track just to see how close I could get to the original recording.  Please excuse the singing - I had a dreadful cold at the time!)
>
> Tron sounds of this ilk can be found on other tracks on the website there - click the header to go to the main page.
>
> Hope that's of some interest to someone!
>
> Owen
>