MOTM

Due to dwindling CEM3330 supply, on Feb. 1 the MOTM-110 goes on
"end-of-life". This
means none will ship, unless I find more CEM3330s, and then only if I get
100 or more.

The replacement for the VCA side will be the dual VCA with pan/fade. The RM
side
will have to be de-designed and put with another function (maybe a delayed
vibrato
module??!?).

No reason to panic now. Just giving everyone *ample warning*. And keep a
lookout for CEM3330s.

Paul S.

--- In motm@egroups.com, "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@a...> wrote:
> Due to dwindling CEM3330 supply, on Feb. 1 the MOTM-110 goes on
> "end-of-life". This
> means none will ship, unless I find more CEM3330s, and then only if 
I get
> 100 or more.
> 

Oooh Oooh! That means my 4 110s will be VINTAGE! I'll be entertaining 
insane offers on eBay! HAhahahahahahahah!

On a serious note, when you get around to redoing the ring mod, may I 
suggest using a different circuit or chip rather than just 
repackaging the current circuit? I like the current ones OK, but it 
would be cool to have a somewhat different sounding RM also, maybe 
capable of better bleedthrough rejection as well.

Moe

In a message dated 11/7/00 11:01:58 AM, daveb@... writes:

<< On a serious note, when you get around to redoing the ring mod, may I 
suggest using a different circuit >>

I'm a bit fan of the old-fashioned transformer-and-diode ring modulator 
circuit; comments Paul?

Ivan

> On a serious note, when you get around to redoing the ring mod, may 
I 
> suggest using a different circuit or chip rather than just 
> repackaging the current circuit? I like the current ones OK, but it 
> would be cool to have a somewhat different sounding RM also, maybe 
> capable of better bleedthrough rejection as well.

is bleedthrough on the current 110 a problem?  

alex

--- In motm@egroups.com, perpetual@u... wrote:
> is bleedthrough on the current 110 a problem?  
> 

Not in the VCA section. If you use the ring mod section as a VCA, or 
if one of the RM inputs is gated off, you hear the other input 
bleeding through faintly, when in an ideal circuit it would be 
perfectly silent. Due to the circuit topology, there's only about 40 
db of carrier suppression (read your 110 specs).

I'm not really concerned about that too much - my main interest was 
in exploring a different circuit with a different sound - different 
ring mod designs can sound VERY different. Some are sweeter, some are 
clear and precise, some are nasty, etc. 

Moe

>--- In motm@egroups.com, perpetual@u... wrote:
>> is bleedthrough on the current 110 a problem?
>>
>
>Not in the VCA section. If you use the ring mod section as a VCA, or
>if one of the RM inputs is gated off, you hear the other input
>bleeding through faintly, when in an ideal circuit it would be
>perfectly silent. Due to the circuit topology, there's only about 40
>db of carrier suppression (read your 110 specs).
>
>I'm not really concerned about that too much - my main interest was
>in exploring a different circuit with a different sound - different
>ring mod designs can sound VERY different. Some are sweeter, some are
>clear and precise, some are nasty, etc.
>
I totally agree. One of my favorite-sounding ring mods is the PAIA/Craig
Anderton Electronics Projects for Musicians kit I built years ago. Very
sweet, and it has a musical fuzziness that I really like (god, I'm starting
to talk like a wine nut!). Unfortunately, it broke a couple of years ago,
and I haven't gotten around to fixing it. A ring mod with that sound and
MOTM build quality would be a winner for me, at least.

____________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@...
Minus Web Site: http://listen.to/minusmusic
Minus MP3's: http://www.mp3.com/-minus-
____________________________________________

In a message dated 11/7/2000 3:23:08 PM, perpetual@... writes:

>is bleedthrough on the current 110 a problem?

I've always thought of bleedthrough on a RM as a "feature."

I actually think the 110 is a great package module for a RM since I always 
need a VCA when I use a RM. The thing I didn't like about the 110 was that 
when I used the VCA, the RM would (necessarily) go unused -- the new Ultra 
VCA module will give us another choice for VCAs. I think combining the RM 
with other (less counter intuitive modules) like the VC Vibrato module (which 
does sound like an interesting module, BTW) would not be as good a 
combination. Maybe just a 1U RM module alone.

Let's have a little more talk about different RM topologies -- I'm wondering 
if the sweetness that Trenkel hears in the Anderton RM might be due to some 
harmonic distortion which Paul might have tried to minimize with the 110?

JB

--- In motm@egroups.com, jwbarlow@a... wrote:
> Let's have a little more talk about different RM topologies -- I'm 
> wondering if the sweetness that Trenkel hears in the Anderton RM 
> might be due to some harmonic distortion which Paul might have 
> tried to minimize with the 110?

One thing I know - my first synth was an EML 101, with which I had a 
huge sounding ring mod patch that swept apart in freq. and came back 
together using an EG to mod the carrier. I can't come close to this 
sound with my MOTM - it's too polite.

I'd like the next one to be rude and colorful instead of polite and 
clean.

Moe

> I'd like the next one to be rude and colorful instead of polite and
> clean.

Add a switch ?

JH.

Moe Bradley wrote:
I'd like the next one to be rude and colorful
instead of polite and clean.
--------

From: <jhaible@...>
Add a switch ?
--------

Oh yes.  Absolutely.  How about a 3 position "Rude" switch
with the three positions being "Larry", Curley" and "Moe."
No offense to Shemp...  :)

Larry

improv@... wrote:
> One of my favorite-sounding ring mods is the PAIA/Craig
> Anderton Electronics Projects for Musicians kit I built years ago. 

I love this one also. It sounds great on guitar. I'm not sure
why it sounds good. I need to do a side-by-side comparison.

Tomy

<< improv@... wrote:
> One of my favorite-sounding ring mods is the PAIA/Craig
> Anderton Electronics Projects for Musicians kit I built years ago.  >>

Is this a true ring modulator?  As I remember it is somewhat similar to the 
Maestro (Oberheim) ring modulator that uses a single PLL IC to "act" like a a 
ring modulator.  Not sure though, I could certainly be wrong.

Ivan

The Anderton circuit is not a true "Ring Mod", it is a 2-quadrant
multiplier. It will then sound
"dirtier". And, you can't use it as a VCA.

Paul S.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Thomas Hudson" <thudson@...>
To: <motm@egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [motm] Re: **MOTM-110 End-of-Life Notice**


>
>
> improv@... wrote:
> > One of my favorite-sounding ring mods is the PAIA/Craig
> > Anderton Electronics Projects for Musicians kit I built years ago.
>
> I love this one also. It sounds great on guitar. I'm not sure
> why it sounds good. I need to do a side-by-side comparison.
>
> Tomy
>
>
>
>

On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Paul Schreiber wrote:

> The Anderton circuit is not a true "Ring Mod", it is a 2-quadrant
> multiplier. It will then sound
> "dirtier". And, you can't use it as a VCA.
> 
Is this similar to the ring mod. in the Korg MS-20?  I've never obtained a
really clean sound from the MS-20 ring mod.  However, I do like it's
'fuzzy' ring mod. sound.
Jeff

My fave ring mod is the Yamaha CS80 without a doubt. That circuit is alive,
its scary! : )
Anyone have particuliars on that circuit ?
JIm

Jeffrey Pontius wrote:

> On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Paul Schreiber wrote:
>
> > The Anderton circuit is not a true "Ring Mod", it is a 2-quadrant
> > multiplier. It will then sound
> > "dirtier". And, you can't use it as a VCA.
> >
> Is this similar to the ring mod. in the Korg MS-20?  I've never obtained a
> really clean sound from the MS-20 ring mod.  However, I do like it's
> 'fuzzy' ring mod. sound.
> Jeff
>

> My fave ring mod is the Yamaha CS80 without a doubt. That circuit is
alive,
> its scary! : )
> Anyone have particuliars on that circuit ?

Not difficult. Clean and straight forward circuit.

The two points that set it apart from other RMs have nothing to do
with the circuit:

(1) It's on the frontpanel, where you can easily grab it, and it has these
     *wonderful* Yamaha rotary slilders.

(2) It has a dedicated VCO, not tracking to the keyboard, but modulated
      by a AD envelope. This is a limitation, compared to other RMs -
      and exactly this limitation adds to its usefulness.

JH.

PS.: Forgot to say, apart from that, it's just your ordinary garden variety
        balanced modulator.

In a message dated 11/8/2000 3:19:40 AM, jhaible@... writes:

>> I'd like the next one to be rude and colorful instead of polite and
>> clean.
>
>Add a switch ?

The switch is a good idea! I'd always wondered whether a switch could be 
added to make a VCA out of a RM (reducing the bleedthrough to usable levels 
by using separate trimmers to optimize the circuit for VCA use). There still 
hasn't been much discussion of what makes these RM circuits sound different.

Does the two quadrant multiplication result in a different sounding output 
than four quadrant multipliers?

Wondering if there is yet another "feature" to the Anderton model.
JB

Offense taken!  I am very offensive!  Nyuk nyuk nyuk!  There will be a
hidden 4th position (undocumented) called Shemp.  This is for ulimate
rudeness above and beyond the call of duty.

--Shemp

> -----Original Message-----
> From: J. Larry Hendry [mailto:jlarryh@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 8:06 AM
> To: motm@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] Different ring mod sounds
>
>
> Moe Bradley wrote:
> I'd like the next one to be rude and colorful
> instead of polite and clean.
> --------
> From: <jhaible@...>
> Add a switch ?
> --------
>
> Oh yes.  Absolutely.  How about a 3 position "Rude" switch
> with the three positions being "Larry", Curley" and "Moe."
> No offense to Shemp...  :)
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
>
>

In a message dated 00-11-08 21:40:05 EST, you write:

<< 
 Does the two quadrant multiplication result in a different sounding output 
 than four quadrant multipliers?
  >>


john,
 i would have thought that 2q mult would have a "richer" spectrum as the 
original freq`s aren`t suppressed like they are in 4q mult ( think of high 
speed a.m. ). beyond that, i would think ( and could easily be wrong ! ) that 
different "multiplication" methods would sound different - ota based 2q or 4 
q would sound different than transformers / diodes or high speed switching 
based 4q.
best,
dave v.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Tentochi <tentochi@...>
To: <motm@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 4:06 AM
Subject: RE: [motm] Different ring mod sounds


> Offense taken!  I am very offensive!  Nyuk nyuk nyuk!  There will be a
> hidden 4th position (undocumented) called Shemp.  > > --------

but will this be voltage controllable..?

cheers
paul b

Okay, reality shift.

I thought a two-quadrant multiplier was a VCA, and a four-quadrant
multiplier was a balanced (hence the name) or "ring" (because of the
original diode ring designs for radio modulators) modulator.

Suddenly everyone's talking about the interesting, richer sounds of
2-quadrant ring modulation.

Isn't a VCA a VCA and not a ring modulator because of the lack of the
zero-crossing/multiplication/"other two artesian quadrants" in its
modulation?

Have I been laboring under a massive delusion all these decades? Or is
everyone joking and I'm just not getting it...?

Inquiring minds need to know!!  ;)

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	davevosh@... [mailto:davevosh@...] 
Sent:	Wednesday, 08 November, 2000 11:31 PM
To:	motm@egroups.com
Subject:	Re: [motm] Different ring mod sounds

In a message dated 00-11-08 21:40:05 EST, you write:

<< 
 Does the two quadrant multiplication result in a different sounding output 
 than four quadrant multipliers?
  >>


john,
 i would have thought that 2q mult would have a "richer" spectrum as the 
original freq`s aren`t suppressed like they are in 4q ...

I never realized that! Thanks! Is this something we should have...?  :)

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...] 
Sent:	Thursday, 09 November, 2000 9:12 AM
To:	motm@egroups.com
Subject:	Re: [motm] Different ring mod sounds

The quick answer is: a VCA can have 2 audio inputs as well! The sidebands
produced are not
the same as a 4-quadrant multiplier, because of the "sign" of the signals (+
and - values) are
"computed" differently.

A RM has more sidebands.

Paul S.

The quick answer is: a VCA can have 2 audio inputs as well! The sidebands
produced are not
the same as a 4-quadrant multiplier, because of the "sign" of the signals (+
and - values) are
"computed" differently.

A RM has more sidebands.

Paul S.

Isn't 2-quadrant multiplication a different name for audio rate 
amplitude modulation? The same effect you'd get by running a VCO into 
the audio input on the 110 VCA, and another VCO into the control 
input?

Moe

--- In motm@egroups.com, "Tkacs, Ken" <ken.tkacs@j...> wrote:
> 
> I never realized that! Thanks! Is this something we should 
have...?  :)
> 
> 
> 
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@a...] 
> Sent:	Thursday, 09 November, 2000 9:12 AM
> To:	motm@egroups.com
> Subject:	Re: [motm] Different ring mod sounds
> 
> The quick answer is: a VCA can have 2 audio inputs as well! The 
sidebands
> produced are not
> the same as a 4-quadrant multiplier, because of the "sign" of the 
signals (+

> and - values) are
> "computed" differently.
> 
> A RM has more sidebands.
> 
> Paul S.

Correct!

Paul S.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Dave Bradley" <daveb@...>
To: <motm@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 10:02 AM
Subject: [motm] Re: Different ring mod sounds


> Isn't 2-quadrant multiplication a different name for audio rate 
> amplitude modulation? The same effect you'd get by running a VCO into 
> the audio input on the 110 VCA, and another VCO into the control 
> input?
> 
> Moe
> 
> --- In motm@egroups.com, "Tkacs, Ken" <ken.tkacs@j...> wrote:
> > 
> > I never realized that! Thanks! Is this something we should 
> have...?  :)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@a...] 
> > Sent: Thursday, 09 November, 2000 9:12 AM
> > To: motm@egroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [motm] Different ring mod sounds
> > 
> > The quick answer is: a VCA can have 2 audio inputs as well! The 
> sidebands
> > produced are not
> > the same as a 4-quadrant multiplier, because of the "sign" of the 
> signals (+
> > and - values) are
> > "computed" differently.
> > 
> > A RM has more sidebands.
> > 
> > Paul S.
> 
> 
> 
>

In-Reply-To: <000a01c04984$a91af200$7a372bd1@oemcomputer>

> Oh yes.  Absolutely.  How about a 3 position "Rude" switch
> with the three positions being "Larry", Curley" and "Moe."
> No offense to Shemp...  :)
> 
> Larry


I would definately be very excited about a module with a
three position 'Stooge' switch and a 'Shemp' button.

Next panel run??

:o)

Keith

http://home.freeuk.net/lowpass

> Does the two quadrant multiplication result in a different sounding output
> than four quadrant multipliers?

I asume we're talking RM made directly (4Q) or being composed of a 2Q
mult and a linear combination of the two input signals. (2Q mod aka VCA
does have completely different features, of course).

I do not expect these two methods to sound much differently. Nor would
the 3rd option, a 1Q mult and even more involved linear combination of
input signals, sound much different. (The MS-50 does this, and a similar
circuit is in Barry Klein's Book.)

In short, you won't notice a sonical difference between a 1496 or a 3080
when
both work in a 4Q circuit, and in their linear region.

But there are other 4Q circuits which have a "gap" in their linearity for
at least one input. They are working like a Class C amplifier (no quiescent
current) so you have a tiny threshold before they start to conduct.
I never actually heard one of these (so this is speculation), but I know
that
ARP used them, and most probably Emu, too, and I can imagine that such a
circuit behaviour results in a more "harsh" sound, especially at low levels.

Why would anybody do such a thing ? It's an elegant way to avoid bleedthru
trimming !! Just to make things more confusing, this feature - no
bleedthru -
is expressed by some as "clean", too. But in the very opposite sense of the
word ...


Two more remarks:

The CS-50/60/80 can crossfade from straight to 100% 2Q modulation to 4Q RM.
It's fun to do this while playing, especially because the the apparent
modulation
rate (in LFO range) doubles from 2Q to 4Q. Before anybody cries for such
an extraordinary feature - it works with *every* RM and crossfader.

When I have expressed my conviction that direct 4QM (1496 et alt.) and
composed 4QM (2QM with VCA, plus linear combination) are just the same,
I was talking about linear operation. Overdrive is a very different topic
altogether. But this can also be switched in externally, can't it ?

JH.

In a message dated 11/9/2000 11:26:59 AM, keithw@... writes:

>I would definately be very excited about a module with a
>three position 'Stooge' switch and a 'Shemp' button.
>

Better to push the "Shemp" button than have Shemp pushing our buttons!

JB

Thanks JH for the detailed thoughts on RM (which I will be digesting for a 
while)! 

Now another stoopid question, is 4Q multiplication the same as cross product 
multiplication and 2Q the same as dot product multiplication?

JB

In a message dated 11/9/2000 7:16:11 AM, synth1@... writes:

>The sidebands
>produced are not
>the same as a 4-quadrant multiplier, because of the "sign" of the signals
>(+
>and - values) are
>"computed" differently.
>

AFAIK, no. At least not for signals represented as voltage levels over time (as opposed to frequencies). 4QM is just like "normal" arithmetic multiplication, with neg * neg = pos, and neg * pos = neg. 2Q multiplication forces the modulator to always be positive. Now, I don't know if it does this through full-wave rectification (same as absolute value), or half-wave (same as the function "max (x, 0)"). I suspect half-wave, since that's essentially how a linear vca works.

So for the mathematically inclined, the output voltages are:
4QM (modulator, carrier) = modulator * carrier
2QM (modulator, carrier) = max (modulator,0) * carrier

-hdan

-----Original Message-----
From: jwbarlow@... [mailto:jwbarlow@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:17 PM
To: motm@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [motm] Different ring mod sounds

Thanks JH for the detailed thoughts on RM (which I will be digesting for a
while)!

Now another stoopid question, is 4Q multiplication the same as cross product
multiplication and 2Q the same as dot product multiplication?

JB

In a message dated 11/9/2000 7:16:11 AM, synth1@... writes:

>The sidebands
>produced are not
>the same as a 4-quadrant multiplier, because of the "sign" of the signals
>(+
>and - values) are
>"computed" differently.
>

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