MOTM

It seems to me that analog lends itself more to voltage control, and 
"continuous" control as compared to digital.  I've got an assortment of 
delays, old and new, and still my favorite is the ADA STD-1 stereo tapped 
analog delay.  It has CV ins and can do some great things...  I would love to 
see an updated version of this with more control.

Ivan

At 06:22 PM 04/19/2000 EDT, IvanCU@... wrote:
>It seems to me that analog lends itself more to voltage control, and 
>"continuous" control as compared to digital.  I've got an assortment of 
>delays, old and new, and still my favorite is the ADA STD-1 stereo tapped 
>analog delay.  It has CV ins and can do some great things...  I would love
to 
>see an updated version of this with more control.

Good choice.  I was about to answer the "what's so great about analog
delays?" query with the rhetorical question, "ever heard an STD-1 or
Echoplex?".  For all the great new FX that are coming out, either inspired
by or reissuing the great items of the past (there's even a tube Echoplex
reissue out there that has a street price of around $700 - about what
vintage units go for), there still aren't any (AFAIK) multi-tap delays out
there like the STD-1 or the WEM tape echo that had four playback heads for
multi-tap operation.  I don't think that either the MoogerFooger or Blacet
analog delays (neither of which are out yet) have that feature.

But despite the fact I prefer analog overall, I think there's definitely a
place for digital delays, too: when >300mS delay times are required, or
brighter, more "precise" reproduction is required, or for infinite looping,
etc.  I often like to use analog effects to make digital synths sound
"warmer", and digital effects to make analog synths sound "cleaner".  And
there are digital delays out there (Digitech RDS1900/3800/7.6, for
instance) that have CV inputs to control modulation rate.

Yeah, I'd love to see a delay module (analog OR digital) with multiple taps
and CV control over delay time, feedback, etc.

	-Doug
	 ceres@...

Most of the DDL's I have are expensive multieffect packages. I do have
one early model delay that I treasure more than any other. The Boss
RPS-10
Pitch Shifter/Digital Delay. Unlike later DDLs that used DSP techniques
to modulate delay length in real time, the RPS-10 actually varies the
clock, i.e. the sample rate. So you can do the neat things of an analog
delay like grab the delay knob and twist to get those
"peee-wob--wob----wob."
Okay, I can't describe in words, go watch Pink FLoyd at Pompei.

It will also take an audio input to control pitch shift or delay time
based on frequency (but it pretty much has to be a sine wave). It also
does an absolute wicked backwards delay effect guaranteed to bring out
a little Hendrix in any guitarist.

No digital I own has anywhere near the "knob-factor." If I ever run
across
another unit, it would be the effect most likely to be ripped apart
and put into the MOTM form factor. Shouldn't be hard to add VC to
this wonderful beast. It even sounds more analog. If you turn the regen
full up it gradually evolves into noise, just like an analog. I think
this DDL is close to an analog done using some digital circuitry.

Oh yeah, and it supports up to 800ms, forward or backward.

Thomas

Oberheim filter pedal:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=312892080
$400.00 reserve not met yet.
Is this crazy?

Duh. All my previous rambling had a point I never made.
I wonder the best of both worlds (or good parts from each)
couldn't be had if you designed a digital circuit based
on analog/bbd ideas. Don't do anything DSP based. Memory
can be treated as a bbd. 

Thomas

In a message dated 04/19/2000 6:52:18 PM, ceres@... writes:

<< Yeah, I'd love to see a delay module (analog OR digital) with multiple taps
and CV control over delay time, feedback, etc. >>

Ursa Major had a great digital multitap delay.  Not their big Space Station 
unit, but a single rack space device.  It was very cool; got to play with one 
for a week.

Ivan

"Brousseau, Paul E (Paul)" wrote:
> 
> Do you suggest that the module use digital memory with an analog
> VC-controlled clock?  That sounds interesting to me, albiet perhaps a bit
> tricky.  I wonder what kind of different artifacts would be produced...

Yes. I guess the trick is using a high enough sample rate on the top-end
to compensate for the low end. The RPS-10 has a rotary switch for
choosing 
between  0-200ms, 200-400ms, and 400 to 800ms. After all, what is the
top-end frequency of an analog delay. The sample rate doesn't have to be
that great. Add a low pass filter tracking the input voltage to hide the
artifacts.
> 
> In another e-mail, you mentioned using a second delay line.  Apparently (if
> I remember the discussion on SDIY correctly) you need to do this on an
> analog delay as well, because while the caps (samples) in one line are
> charging, you need the second line to discharge.  I suggested upping this to
> more lines (3 or 4) but I don't think anyone commented.  I'm not sure what
> benefit it might have.
> 
I think Aderton was refering to the fact that the minimal delay was
something
like 1ms (which may only be the case for eighties delays/sample rates).
If
you delay the original signal by this much you get true thru zero
flanging.

Though to be honest, I've never heard an analog or digital flanger sound
as good as some tape based flanging effects. But I don't have a clue as
to why this is true.

Thomas

In a message dated 00-04-19 20:26:20 EDT, you write:

<< Maestro version of this same pedal >>



ivan,
way, way back when i was about 18, i had the maestro ring modulator that 
oberheim designed.  it was fun, was used with a cheap elec. organ and a bunch 
of pre-synth electro junk that i used to make noise with.  i love my modular 
and can`t believe i`m saying this ( maybe nostalgia has finally killed my 
brain ) but sometimes, it all seemed like more fun then !
best,
dave v.

In a message dated 04/19/2000 10:40:17 PM, davevosh@... writes:

<< the space station was pretty cool, too. years back, i had one and was 
quite 
fond of it.  >>

Not to get nostalgic here, but there were some very cool old effect units.  
Before the Space Station was the Marshall Time Modulator.  Every once in a 
while you see these for sale, typically at ridiculous prices.  Ah yes, back 
when men were men and delay lines produced more noise than signal!

Ivan

In a message dated 00-04-19 23:33:49 EDT, you write:

<< The ring modulator was one of the coolest Maestro >>



ivan,
well, it was my first ring modulator so i can look back on it fondly although 
to be honest, it was not that well built and mine always seemed to need 
tinkering to keep it going. still, that big flat box with those sliders was 
very neat at that time! wish i still had it ( like so much other stuff !! ) 
probably worth way more than i would ever have considered paying for one!!  
oh well........
best,
dave v.

I have a Marshall Time Modulator and there is absolutely no noticeable
noise whatsoever. The spec sheet rates the signal to noise ratio at 90dB
or something like that, and I certainly don't think they were lying.
Maybe yours was broken?

ivancu@... wrote:

> Not to get nostalgic here, but there were some very cool old effect
> units.
> Before the Space Station was the Marshall Time Modulator.  Every once
> in a
> while you see these for sale, typically at ridiculous prices.  Ah yes,
> back
> when men were men and delay lines produced more noise than signal!
>
> Ivan

In a message dated 04/20/2000 7:44:13 AM, ben@... writes:

<< I have a Marshall Time Modulator and there is absolutely no noticeable
noise whatsoever. The spec sheet rates the signal to noise ratio at 90dB
or something like that, and I certainly don't think they were lying.
Maybe yours was broken? >>

It was unfair of me to make that comment in reference to the Marshall Time 
Modulator.  They are very quiet units.  Most other analog delays are fairly 
noisy, at least in my experience.  But the Marshall was always one of the 
best units out there.

At one time I had a Klark Teknik DN34 analog delay... another nice unit.  
Wish I still had it!

Ivan

Agreed--analog delays in general tend to be noisier than their digital
counterparts. Many flangers and phasers tend to derive their "whoosh"
sound from the noise that is mixed in.

I'm not familiar with the DN34, but I have the DN36 and I quite like it.
I imagine they are from the same series, though. Did you ever open yours
up and look at how many ICs are in there? It puts the Synthex to
shame...

ivancu@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 04/20/2000 7:44:13 AM, ben@... writes:
>
> << I have a Marshall Time Modulator and there is absolutely no
> noticeable
> noise whatsoever. The spec sheet rates the signal to noise ratio at
> 90dB
> or something like that, and I certainly don't think they were lying.
> Maybe yours was broken? >>
>
> It was unfair of me to make that comment in reference to the Marshall
> Time
> Modulator.  They are very quiet units.  Most other analog delays are
> fairly
> noisy, at least in my experience.  But the Marshall was always one of
> the
> best units out there.
>
> At one time I had a Klark Teknik DN34 analog delay... another nice
> unit.
> Wish I still had it!
>
> Ivan
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>

In a message dated 04/20/2000 9:09:45 AM, ben@... writes:

<< I'm not familiar with the DN34, but I have the DN36 and I quite like it.
I imagine they are from the same series, though. Did you ever open yours
up and look at how many ICs are in there? It puts the Synthex to
shame... >>

You're right; it was a DN36.  I managed the U.S. distribution of Klark Teknik 
during the early-mid 1990's, but this unit was discontinued years before 
that.  If you want to see a stuffed circuit board open up a KT DN780 digital 
reverb!  Amazing what they fit in there.

Ivan