MOTM

Dave,

Thanks for the comments.  I have worked with a VCS3 and the matrix patching can be
quite confusing.  It's not very easy to visualize the patch on the matrix. 
Actually, the first synth I ever played had matrix "pushbuttons"; anybody ever
played an Ionic Performer?  Again, it was confusing to "see" the interconnections
between the modules with the matrix especially for someone playing a synth for the
first time without a manual!

The 2500 patching is a bit different since you use the switches to select and
interconnection between modules.  What I'm wondering about is if this is any
easier/better to visualize the patch with.  My guess is that it is better than an
EMS patch matrix but harder than patch cords, except when they get really tangled.

I suppose I too am addicted to patch cords; I'm just exploring other options that
can help with that modular "lateral thinking"...

Along the same lines, how do folks "store" patches from their MOTM systems?  I
haven't bothered to write things down yet, preferring to have my patches as a form
of temporary "art" but I wonder if any folks just get out a notebook and write down
a block diagram or do something else.  Thoughts?

Eric

--- davevosh@... wrote:
> one thing i noticed was that you asked about arp 2500 style matrix "bus bar " 
> switching ( which i`ve never used... only read about and most of the comments 
> about them weren`t that favorable in terms of crosstalk, panel space 
> utilization / efficiency and reliability ) and the thread jumped to ems style 
> pin matrix`s ( which i`ve also, sadly, never used ) but, there too, i`ve read 
> lots of stuff about reliability issues, crosstalk and cv node summing errors 
> that make me wonder about their long term use vis-a-vis patchcords. i`d love 
> to have had the opportunity to have tried out an aks or vcs3 to find out for 
> myself ! aspects of their system design / packaging are interesting and 
> certainly, some very nice e.m. has come from people who use them ( or their 
> gigantic cousin, the synthi100 ).
> me, i guess i`m "old fashioned" ( or was that just "old" ) ( or is the new 
> buzzword "retro" - ??? ), i have found patchcords satisfactory over the years 
> and never really looked for a different alternative.
> best,
> dave v.

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Does anyone remember the old "programming" board from the early IBM 
computers?  These were framed panels that you would patch, similar to a large 
patchbay, and then insert the whole panel into the computer.  Interesting 
concept to do something like this for a modular synth.  I used to have one of 
these laying around as a reminder of the past... now I'm thinking it might be 
interesting to use in the future!

Ivan

In a message dated 2/29/2000 4:56:29 PM, alt_mode@... writes:

>I suppose I too am addicted to patch cords; I'm just exploring other options
>that
>can help with that modular "lateral thinking"...

I was thinking that there must've been a time in the development of modular 
gear, that people were using binding posts and just stripped and tinned wire 
-- no jacks at all. I've been meaning to ask this on the diy list when 
pro/con connector threads start showing up.

>Along the same lines, how do folks "store" patches from their MOTM systems?
> I
>haven't bothered to write things down yet, preferring to have my patches
>as a form
>of temporary "art" but I wonder if any folks just get out a notebook and
>write down
>a block diagram or do something else.  Thoughts?

I rarely (never) log my patches, if I come up with something new to me, I'll 
generally leave it patched up for weeks, and change the other stuff around 
it, until it becomes part of my "patch repertoire." In EM classes, I did log 
patches, but found the real important if subtle info is lost (like 
relationships between two oscillators in some FM patch for example). I have 
said that MOTM stability and large knob size might make logging patches 
easier.

JB

You mean like those phone bank patch blocks?  I remember working as an
assistant sysadm a few years back and working on some in the basements of
several musty concrete semi-government buildings, and thinking that the
punch-tool was my best friend.  That, and a continuity tester.  Wish I had
learned more from that job, though... But I digress...  those things would
be hellish to work on; I can't imagine that it would take long to progress
to jacks.  What I wonder is if there was ever a modular with rip-cord jacks,
where when you unplug the jack the cord retracts back into the modular.
Unpractical as hell, really...

--PBr, bantering aimlessly...

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	jwbarlow@... [SMTP:jwbarlow@...]
> Sent:	Tuesday, February 29, 2000 6:06 PM
> To:	motm@onelist.com
> Subject:	Re: [motm] Matrix Patching & Patch Storage
> 
> >I suppose I too am addicted to patch cords; I'm just exploring other
> options
> >that
> >can help with that modular "lateral thinking"...
> 
> I was thinking that there must've been a time in the development of
> modular 
> gear, that people were using binding posts and just stripped and tinned
> wire 
> -- no jacks at all. I've been meaning to ask this on the diy list when 
> pro/con connector threads start showing up.
> 
>

On 1 Mar 2000 motm@onelist.com wrote:

> _______________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 23
>    Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:05:36 EST
>    From: jwbarlow@...
> Subject: Re: Matrix Patching & Patch Storage
> 
> I was thinking that there must've been a time in the development of modular 
> gear, that people were using binding posts and just stripped and tinned wire 
> -- no jacks at all. I've been meaning to ask this on the diy list when 
> pro/con connector threads start showing up.

this got worked out before vc synthesizers, probably with early computers
or even telphone equipment or before.

I've seen the first buchla prototype and it had jacks in it.


----------------------------------------------------------
celesteh@...   http://www.casaninja.com/celesteh

> From: jwbarlow@...
> I rarely (never) log my patches, if I come up with something new to me,
I'll 
> generally leave it patched up for weeks, and change the other stuff
around 
> it, until it becomes part of my "patch repertoire." In EM classes, I did
log 
> patches, but found the real important if subtle info is lost (like 
> relationships between two oscillators in some FM patch for example). I
have 
> said that MOTM stability and large knob size might make logging patches 
> easier.

I have tried to document a few patches, but it is a time consuming process.
 I am thinking hi-res digital camera might be a decent idea.  I've been
wanting one anyhow.

Larry H

In a message dated 2/29/2000 9:26:22 PM, jlarryh@... writes:

<< I have tried to document a few patches, but it is a time consuming process.

 I am thinking hi-res digital camera might be a decent idea.  >>

Reminds of the days before "total recall" mixing consoles where the studio 
would have a camera mounted on the ceiling above the console.  You would take 
a photo of the console, have it blown up, and later use it to "recall" 
settings.  A "settings snapshot" literally!

Ivan

>From: "Brousseau, Paul E (Paul)" <PaulBr@...>
>What I wonder is if there was ever a modular with rip-cord jacks,
>where when you unplug the jack the cord retracts back into the modular.
>Unpractical as hell, really...


hello all,
you can't believe how close i was to doing this. a government surplus depot
down in nottingham had an old 30s/40s/50s telephone operators console, gpo
retracting cables everything, about the size of an upright piano, i knew as
soon as i saw it that this was the only stylish way of patching my growing
modular - fortunately, the beast wasn't for sale, i mean it was huge, and as
you correctly point out unpractical as hell, but damn stylish
funnily enough i'm off down there on saturday - on a joystick raid (aviation
or otherwise)
meanwhile, back in the real world - i made up a rough patch sheet for my
motm, so if i come across anything unusual, it's just a case of drawing
lines and marking knob positions

cheers
paul b

In a message dated 00-02-29 18:56:29 EST, you write:

<< ctually, the first synth I ever played had matrix "pushbuttons"; anybody 
ever
 played an Ionic Performer?  >>



eric,
i never actually saw one of those but i remember their literature from my 
earlier days of synthing. wasn`t it a copy of a vcs3 with buttons instead of 
pin matrix ? i remember thinking it was some sort of "rip off" or clone.
as for notating patches, i use my faulty memory to try and recall setups that 
i liked. the patches are never the same way twice, it seems, but new ideas 
always seem to develop.
best,
dave

In a message dated 00-02-29 20:47:33 EST, you write:

<<  old "programming" board from the early IBM  >>


ivan,
we had those on the ibm accounting machines we had at my high school !  would 
probably be too cumbersome to wire up all the module functions to a socket 
that then mated with the patch board. still, didn`t vcs3 and buchla music 
easel have something like this ? i don`t know how well it worked but it was a 
precursor to the now common digital patch memory in midi type kybds.
best,
dave

In a message dated 00-02-29 21:08:20 EST, you write:

<< 
 I was thinking that there must've been a time in the development of modular 
 gear, that people were using binding posts and just stripped and tinned wire 
 -- no jacks at all. I've been meaning to ask this on the diy list when 
 pro/con connector threads start showing up.
  >>



john,
i`ve never seen or heard of any modular gear like that but before i had my 
first paia synth, i used test equipment, kludged radio junk and aging mono 
tape recorders to make electro-noise. lots of that stuff had binding posts 
!!!!
best,
dave v.

An amazing amount of what we think of as audio studio gear (equalizers, test
oscillators, filters, even vocoders) started out life as adapted equipment
from the telephone industry. Patchcords in modulars are older than you might
think-where do you think the 1/4" plug came from in the first place?
Telephone switching equipment.

I think there was some relationship between Ionic and EMS.  I read somewhere that
Ionic distributed or purchased most of the EMS synths in the US for awhile.  The
Performer certainly had a resemblance to the Synthi's.  I think it had 4 oscillators
with the same verner dials and variable waveshapes as EMS.  I believe it even had
"trapezoid" controls on the EGs.  I *do* recall the Performer had tuning stability
that was about as good as an EMS synth!  [Shudder.]

Eric

--- davevosh@... wrote:
> In a message dated 00-02-29 18:56:29 EST, you write:
> 
> << ctually, the first synth I ever played had matrix "pushbuttons"; anybody 
> ever
>  played an Ionic Performer?  >>
> 
> 
> 
> eric,
> i never actually saw one of those but i remember their literature from my 
> earlier days of synthing. wasn`t it a copy of a vcs3 with buttons instead of 
> pin matrix ? i remember thinking it was some sort of "rip off" or clone.
> as for notating patches, i use my faulty memory to try and recall setups that 
> i liked. the patches are never the same way twice, it seems, but new ideas 
> always seem to develop.
> best,
> dave
> 
> 
> 
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Both the Music Easel and the VCS3 MkII had boards for "storing" patches.  On the
EMS, the "Presto Patch" cards stored a configuration of the matrix pins.  You still
had to set up the knobs yourself.  On the Music Easel, you could set up patch
interconnections and slider values (with resistors!) on the program boards.  Music
Easels came with a set of the boards and a few boxes of resistors for common slider
values.  Cool ideas for the first "programmable" synths but you'd better really like
a patch in order to match resistor values and solder them onto a board.  The Easel
had a three position switch to select the front panel, the program card, or both.

Eric

--- davevosh@... wrote:
didn`t vcs3 and buchla music 
> easel have something like this ? i don`t know how well it worked but it was a 
> precursor to the now common digital patch memory in midi type kybds.

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At 09:38 AM 03/01/2000 -0800, alt-mode <alt_mode@...> wrote:
>Both the Music Easel and the VCS3 MkII had boards for "storing" patches.  
>On the Music Easel, you could set up patch
>interconnections and slider values (with resistors!) on the program
boards.  Music
>Easels came with a set of the boards and a few boxes of resistors for
common slider
>values.  Cool ideas for the first "programmable" synths but you'd better
really like
>a patch in order to match resistor values and solder them onto a board.  

This technique was even used in the late 70s (although invisible to the
user) by Yamaha on their CS-15D preset synthesizer - there's a board inside
covered with banks of resistors that "replace" the front panel knob
settings (actually, it's bitimbral, and only one of the timbres has knobs -
the other one only has the presets; one of my if-I-ever-get-around-to-it
DIY projects is to pull out one of the resistor banks and replace it with
an interface to an external knob box ... not likely to happen soon since
the synth is on semi-permanent loan to a friend 150 miles away).

	-Doug
	 ceres@...

At the current time I don't have enough modules to justify this, but I plan
on making an outline drawing of all the modules and then arranging them
into a patch sheet (similar to the patch sheets they gave you in the back
of the memorymoog owners manual.) If anyone is interested email me with the
layout of your system ( ie: row 1: 3 800's, 700, 800, 120, row 2: 410, 420,
440, 900, etc.)  And i will send you a gif you can print to use as a patch
sheet.  -Nate

>>Along the same lines, how do folks "store" patches from their MOTM systems?
>
>> I
>
>>haven't bothered to write things down yet, preferring to have my patches
>
>>as a form
>
>>of temporary "art" but I wonder if any folks just get out a notebook and
>
>>write down
>
>>a block diagram or do something else.  Thoughts?

Nathan, I think this is a nice solution.  I use this on several of my
smaller synths.  My Micro even came with plastic sheets you could layover
the top.  

I have a  .BMP file of my system like that with a drawing of each module. 
Actually, Chris did the original artwork.  I took his system, did a few
modifications, a little cutting and pasting and I have it.  It is a bit too
small for patching, BUT, that is what they make those zoom / size buttons. 
:)

Larry H

----------
> From: Nathan Alan Hunsicker <nate@...>
> To: motm@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] Matrix Patching & Patch Storage
> Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 1:56 PM
> 
> From: Nathan Alan Hunsicker <nate@...>
> 
> At the current time I don't have enough modules to justify this, but I
plan
> on making an outline drawing of all the modules and then arranging them
> into a patch sheet (similar to the patch sheets they gave you in the back
> of the memorymoog owners manual.) If anyone is interested email me with
the
> layout of your system ( ie: row 1: 3 800's, 700, 800, 120, row 2: 410,
420,
> 440, 900, etc.)  And i will send you a gif you can print to use as a
patch
> sheet.  -Nate
> 
> 
> >>Along the same lines, how do folks "store" patches from their MOTM
systems?
> >
> >> I
> >
> >>haven't bothered to write things down yet, preferring to have my
patches
> >
> >>as a form
> >
> >>of temporary "art" but I wonder if any folks just get out a notebook
and

> >
> >>write down
> >
> >>a block diagram or do something else.  Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>

In a message dated 2/29/2000 7:58:51 PM, celesteh@... writes:

>this got worked out before vc synthesizers, probably with early computers
>or even telphone equipment or before.
>
>I've seen the first buchla prototype and it had jacks in it.


Well, this is a good indicator since Buchla was one guy I was thinking of in 
particular, and I'd guess this prototype was built around 64 to 66. I'd like 
to hear more about Buchla's stuff and development since I've never used any 
of it but always thought it was intriguing. If you (or anybody) can talk 
about this stuff wrt MOTM future developments I'd love to hear it.


In a message dated 3/1/2000 6:30:26 AM, davevosh@... writes:

>i`ve never seen or heard of any modular gear like that but before i had
>my 
>first paia synth, i used test equipment, kludged radio junk and aging mono
>tape recorders to make electro-noise. lots of that stuff had binding posts
>!!!!

Yeah, this is more what I was thinking about, the late 40s to the early 60s. 
While we're all familiar with the bigger studios in Europe and the US, there 
must've been "guys" in their garages (like Bob Moog in the early days, or the 
Barons, or Les Paul but with les money -- get it?) fooling around with this 
stuff before we had 1v/oct standards, or such a beast as a "synthesizer" (a 
word I dislike).

In a message dated 3/1/2000 6:57:58 AM, ken.tkacs@... writes:

>An amazing amount of what we think of as audio studio gear (equalizers,
>test
>oscillators, filters, even vocoders) started out life as adapted equipment
>from the telephone industry. Patchcords in modulars are older than you
>might
>think-where do you think the 1/4" plug came from in the first place?
>Telephone switching equipment.

You make a very good point. I was thinking that jacks and plugs add great 
expense when you are buying a lot. But phone switchboard jacks (aren't these 
the same as TRS jacks in studio patch bays?) were probably quite readily 
available as scrap even, and a large studio in the 50s, probably only had 
about as many "modules" as an ARP 2600.

Patch panel proposal (not really for MOTM -- patch cords are much more 
"flexible" -- get it?): 
A field of 1/4" stereo jacks such that the tip connects to the output from a 
module, and the ring connects to the input of the module -- the bad news is, 
each jack would have to have a 100K associated with its ring (either on the 
ring of the jack, or on the particular board).
Then you get a stereo phone plug and just solder a jumper between the ring 
and the tip.
The main advantage of this type of matrix, is that you could just plug a 
standard 1/4" patch cord in any jack and use it as an output, with no effect 
on the associated input -- and no need for multiples.

Just a thought!

I'm glad Crow heard the Moog interview on Monday -- it was nice to hear Terry 
ask him about using such mundane controllers as a standard keyboard.

Hey Fred, did ya get that 120 going?
JB

In a message dated 00-03-01 08:58:00 EST, you write:

<< Patchcords in modulars are older than you might
 think- >>


ken,
very true.......and as regards modular audio synthesis / processing, harald 
bode ( of vocoder fame among other things ) published an article in an 
electronics trade mag around 1960. i used to have a copy of it but several 
moves and the ravages of time seem to have consumed it.  :^(  
it was fascinating reading and a classic of the genre !
best,
dave v.

In a message dated 00-03-01 12:36:02 EST, you write:

<<  I read somewhere that
 Ionic distributed or purchased most of the EMS synths in the US for awhile >>


eric,
maybe they were the u.s. distributer before emsa - ?  afterwards, they could 
have done up a clone type unit to try and stay in business. just idle 
speculation......
did you actually own one ?
best,
dave

In a message dated 00-03-01 12:48:59 EST, you write:

<< n the Music Easel, you could set up patch
 interconnections and slider values (with resistors!) on the program boards.  
>>



eric,
i can see how this would have worked nicely if you had a repetoire of 
favorite sounds.
the ems approach, i would think, would have been harder to use for what i 
would have thought its intended purpose was since it didn`t " store" ( allow 
you to set ) the voltages relevant to the knob controls. or am i missing 
something obvious ?
best,
dave v.

In a message dated 00-03-01 13:28:51 EST, you write:

<< Yamaha on their CS-15D preset synthesizer >>



doug,
never even heard of that one much less seen one.......
sounds like it might be a fun ( if major ) project though, should they synth 
ever come home !
best,
dave v.

I wonder how that compares to my NON-preset CS-15.  The CS-15 (sans) D is
monophonic rather than duo-phonic.  Cool synth 2 VCO, 2 mixers, 2 VCF, 2
VCA, 2 EG, 1 LFO, external audio in, glide circuit.  Since the CS-15D was
duo-phonic, I wonder if it had two of everything?  Someone mentioned how
cool it would be to substitute controls for one of the preset boards.  I
agree.  No patch cords on this one, but it has switches, to route and
select things like which EG to which VCF, VCA, etc.  Anyone every seen a
CS-15D?  Unfortunately, the CS-15 is plagued by the damn V/Hz VCO control
standard.  I have a link to a photo of one if anyone is interested in
seeing a CS-15 (actually my CS-15).
Larry H


> << Yamaha on their CS-15D preset synthesizer >>
> 
> doug,
> never even heard of that one much less seen one.......
> sounds like it might be a fun ( if major ) project though, should they
synth 

> ever come home !
> best,
> dave v.

> the ems approach, i would think, would have been harder to use for what i 
> would have thought its intended purpose was since it didn`t " store" ( allow 
> you to set ) the voltages relevant to the knob controls. or am i missing 
> something obvious ?
> best,
> dave v.

Nope, you're not missing anything.  This is why the EMS Presto Patch interface
became the "Computer Interface" port in later VCS3's.  I think folks found them a
bit difficult for live performance use.

Eric
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I could be wrong on some of this, since I don't have easy access to my
CS-15D and it's been a while since I've seen a plain CS-15 ...

At 07:38 AM 03/02/2000 -0600, "J. Larry Hendry" <jlarryh@...> wrote:
>I wonder how that compares to my NON-preset CS-15.  The CS-15 (sans) D is
>monophonic rather than duo-phonic.  

Both CS-15 & CS-15D are mono-PHONIC, but they're both bi-TIMBRAL ...

>Cool synth 2 VCO, 2 mixers, 2 VCF, 2 VCA, 2 EG,

... because the two VCO->VCF->VCA/EG paths are parallel and independent of
each other (as opposed to, for instance, the 2xVCO 2xVCF MS-20 where both
VCO outputs are mixed together and go through the two filters, HFP & LPF,
in series).  This would actually make a good MOTM patching exercise (in an
attempt to keep this vaguely on-topic) for someone who owns two each of
-300, -420, -800 & -110 (for the VCA): compare and contrast the
capabilities and sonic ranges of the two-oscillator monotimbral patch vs.
the one-oscillator bitimbral patch ...

... or do the two mixers on the CS-15 (not present on the CS-15D IIRC)
allow you to pan each VCO between each of the two VCF->VCA paths, as
opposed to the forced segregation of the two VCO's on the CS-15D?

>1 LFO, external audio in, glide circuit.  Since the CS-15D was
>duo-phonic, I wonder if it had two of everything?  

I'm 99% certain that the guts of both CS-15's are the same, and that the
only difference is that one of the timbres (i.e. VCO->VCF->VCA/EG path) has
no control knobs.  Instead, that part of the front panel has two rows of
preset buttons, one for the timbre with control knobs (which are disabled
for every preset except the "manual" one), and one for the timbre without
any knobs.

>Someone mentioned how
>cool it would be to substitute controls for one of the preset boards.  I
>agree.  

Which would, I believe, essentially convert it into a normal CS-15 with
presets.

>No patch cords on this one, but it has switches, to route and
>select things like which EG to which VCF, VCA, etc.

Those Yamaha CS- synths DO have very nice modulation routing capabilities
(love 'em on my CS-40M!  Which, BTW, I made a patch sheet for in Visio a
couple years ago).

>Unfortunately, the CS-15 is plagued by the damn V/Hz VCO control
>standard.  

Works great with Korg MS- synths!

>I have a link to a photo of one if anyone is interested in
>seeing a CS-15 (actually my CS-15).

I'd like to.  Sorry I don't have any available pics of the CS-15D.

	-Doug
	 ceres@...

> Both CS-15 & CS-15D are mono-PHONIC, but they're both bi-TIMBRAL ...

Thanks Doug.  I got confused by someone's comment about the CS-15 being
possibly duo-phonic.  I can see how the knob 1/2 and preset 1/2 would lead
one to "think" of it that way.

> ... or do the two mixers on the CS-15 (not present on
> the CS-15D IIRC) allow you to pan each VCO between
> each of the two VCF->VCA paths, as opposed to the 
> forced segregation of the two VCO's on the CS-15D?

I see.  I think the mixers are a huge feature on the CS-15.  You can be
bi-timbral as you say in actually TWO different configurations.
One: would be one VCO, one VCF, one VCA, one EG per timber.  Or...
Two: both VCOs on one timbre and noise or external VCOs on the other timbre

> Those Yamaha CS- synths DO have very nice modulation
> routing capabilities (love 'em on my CS-40M!)

Yep.   For a simple mono-synth, it is a sweet puppy.

> >Unfortunately, the CS-15 is plagued by the damn V/Hz VCO control
> >standard.  
> 
> Works great with Korg MS- synths!

Yes, I have a MS-20, but I am about ready to part with it.  LAst two on
E-bay have sold for $1200-1400 range.  I don't like it THAT much.
 
> I'd like to.  Sorry I don't have any available pics of the CS-15D.

http://165.138.219.2/~drew/ahmw99.html

Larry Hendry

In a message dated 00-03-02 13:12:34 EST, you write:

<< Nope, you're not missing anything.  This is why the EMS Presto Patch 
interface
 became the "Computer Interface" port in later VCS3's.   >>



eric,
okay, good - i worry sometimes about overlooking the obvious ( even worse 
without personal experience with the machine ). the computer interface would 
have been cool with a nice software enviroment ! did they have software or 
was it delivered as "bare iron" ? or, perhaps, a scaled down version of their 
musys system ?
best,
dave v.

[Catching up on a few threads.  It seems that Onelist and Yahoo weren't exchanging
mail that well on Thursday and Friday and I missed some MOTM mail, horrors!]

Dave,

I don't think the EMS prestopatch-interface-relabeled-as-computer-interface ever
went very far.  From what I have read, only a few experimenters every got it to
work.  That sounds pretty "bare-iron" to me.

Eric


<< Nope, you're not missing anything.  This is why the EMS Presto Patch 
interface
 became the "Computer Interface" port in later VCS3's.   >>

eric,
okay, good - i worry sometimes about overlooking the obvious ( even worse 
without personal experience with the machine ). the computer interface would 
have been cool with a nice software enviroment ! did they have software or 
was it delivered as "bare iron" ? or, perhaps, a scaled down version of their 
musys system ?
best,
dave v.






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In a message dated 00-03-04 21:09:12 EST, you write:

<< That sounds pretty "bare-iron" to me.
  >>



eric,
thats too bad - a relatively simple ( and simplified ) port of their "musys" 
music input language / control system would have been really cool and opened 
up a lot of possibilities for their users.  :^(
best,
dave v.