MOTM

Anybody got their joystick circuit drawn up yet?  Since I already have my
joysticks, I am just about ready to start mine.  After some advice from
Paul and some great reading in "The Art of Electronics" I think I am ready.
 It really seems simple.

My joystick pots are only 5 K.  So, I am planning two resistors (12K or
larger) in series with each end to the -/+ supply to limit the current in
the joystick pot and reduce the voltage out from the joystick pot to about
0 to 5 VDC (maybe a little less).  I plan to have a 100K pot for "offset"
and sum that voltage on the front end of an op amp motm style.  The summing
resistors would set the range for the offset. Then I plan to attenuate the
whole thing at the front of the op amp and make that pot a "gain" pot to
control the total voltage range of the joystick.  The first op amp will
have a gain of about 2 or 3 depending on the voltage I end up with out of
the joystick pot.  I want that voltage out to be about 10 VDC with the gain
at maximum.  That will provide the first output from that axis.  That
voltage will also feed a no-gain op amp.  Both op amps will be inverting. 
So, the output of the second op amp will be just opposite of the first at
the same magnitude.

Multiply that whole thing times two for the other axis and I am done.  So,
I end up with 4 buffered outputs (X+, X-, Y+, & Y-) and four pots -- offset
(or trim if you prefer) and gain for each axis.

The idea of the offset control lets you do two things:
1 - exactly zero the voltage when the spring return joystick is at center.
2.- set some voltage other than zero to the center point.

When I get the whole thing done I will share my results.  This seems simple
enough that even a non-engineer stooge like me will not screw it up.  If I
do, then someone with a little more skill in this area can correct me (if
that is possible <grin>).

Larry Hendry

If I can find a big enough die punch, I was thinking to make a module using
the IBM DB-15 connector, so any old PC joystick would just plug right in.
That way,
you can have a cable away from the panel.

Paul S.

More joystick ramblings.  I just got am e-mail from Terry concerning an old
PAiA joystick circuit. I don't care for the circuit layout as-is, BUT,
there is one idea in there that excited me a LOT about my upcoming joystick
panel.  This circuit has CV IN for the X and Y axis.

So, adapting that idea to my joystick circuit with the two outputs (one
inverted and one not), the joystick panel can double as a dual inverting
(or not) attenuator.  The CV input would override the joystick input to the
buffer op amp.  That could be supervised by the panel jack switch.  Oh boy,
I am excited now !!

And, while I was working on my schematic, I finally decided what I am going
to do with that dang button on top.  It will have two functions.

mode 1:  When the button is pressed.  Voltage on all 4 outputs goes to
zero.  I think I have this figured out.  To me this would make it very easy
to adjust the "trim" or "offset" to the exact zero point by ear quickly.

mode 2: Button generates a gate (and maybe trigger) when depressed.  Since
there is only one button, I can't really see the need for a trigger, if 800
EG are set up to work on gate only.  I think it would be real cool to maybe
hook the joystick up to a filter like the 420.  Use the joystick CV out to
one of the filter CVs in and the use the gate out to a 800 EG.  Then use
the EG out to one of the other CVs in on the 420.  You could then use the
stick to control filter cutoff and at the same time retrigger the envelope
over and over from any joystick position.

So, lets here from some others that may be planning wild joystick panels. 
:)

Larry H

>From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
>
>If I can find a big enough die punch, I was thinking to make a module using
>the IBM DB-15 connector, so any old PC joystick would just plug right in.


the man is a true genius..?
tho' i thought that PC style joysticks were those switching kind instead of
good old fashioned pots, if i were a little less in a hurry to get to work
i'd formulate the follwing conclusions:
1 - "cool, does that mean i could use a mouse to control my motm..?"
2 - "i could get a cheap steering column (for a driving game) for ridiculous
motm control"
3 - "graphics tablet anyone..? (if i traced a picture of myself, what sound
would it produce..!?"

cheers
paul b

I like this idea! If there is a single multi-pin connector
coming off of a panel it could provide power for the remote control box
as well as carry the return signals to the system,  whatever they may
be. Then the panel could have several 1/4" jacks on it so one could
patch the remote control signals to modules. This would work great for
me.

          In the last few days I made ( with Paul's assistance) an
external box running on a 9v battery that has one momentary switch and
one pot. It has 2 1/4" jacks for output. One is a fixed +5v trigger and
the other is variable via the pot. There is also a high/low switch that
sets the width of the pot from either 0-2v or 0-5v. The pot is activated
by the momentary as well. This assures that the battery does not drain
unless the momentary is pressed. It also allows for some cool effects. I
had a sustained vocal sound going through the VCA modulated by the LFO
for a very fast 1/8th note stuttering type tremolo. By connecting the
variable output of my box into the 1V/oct jack on the LFO I was able to
slow down the the LFO to 1/4 notes, triplets or whatever and then let go
of the momentary and slide right back to the 1/8th notes! This may seem
rudimentary to some but it was very cool to me. It is nice to do this
from a remote so you are not tied down to keyboard controllers or the
front panel. You can sit in the sweet spot of your monitoring system and
go crazy.


            I would also like to experiment with larger swings of
control voltages. I found that, in the same scenario as above, if the
LFO is running slow the +5V swing does not speed up the LFO as much as I
would like. Also when controlling filter cutoff points it would be nice
to go from very low to very high. I am looking for extreme sounds here.
Any ideas? Negative voltages too.


            So I definitely cast my vote for a controller panel with a
multi-pin connector. In that way there is only one cable extending to
the controller box (very neat) and power from the system can be used (no
batteries to change). This cable could be standardized MOTM pin out but
could be used by various people  for their particular needs ( Joysticks,
Triggers, Variable pots etc.)

Charles.

Paul Schreiber wrote:

> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
>
> If I can find a big enough die punch, I was thinking to make a module
> using
> the IBM DB-15 connector, so any old PC joystick would just plug right
> in.
> That way,
> you can have a cable away from the panel.
>
> Paul S.
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>

That's a cool idea!

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
		Sent:	Tuesday, February 22, 2000 12:25 AM
		To:	motm@onelist.com
		Subject:	Re: [motm] Joystick stuff - circuits

		From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>

		If I can find a big enough die punch, I was thinking to make
a module using
		the IBM DB-15 connector, so any old PC joystick would just
plug right in.
		That way,
		you can have a cable away from the panel.

		Paul S.

The old Atari ones were switching; my understanding is that IBM joysticks
are continuous.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Paul & Alleyne [mailto:vulture.squadron@...]
		Sent:	Tuesday, February 22, 2000 4:59 AM
		To:	motm@onelist.com
		Subject:	Re: [motm] Joystick stuff - circuits

		From: "Paul & Alleyne" <vulture.squadron@...>

		>From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
		>
		>If I can find a big enough die punch, I was thinking to
make a module using
		>the IBM DB-15 connector, so any old PC joystick would just
plug right in.


		the man is a true genius..?
		tho' i thought that PC style joysticks were those switching
kind instead of
		good old fashioned pots, if i were a little less in a hurry
to get to work
		i'd formulate the follwing conclusions:
		1 - "cool, does that mean i could use a mouse to control my
motm..?"
		2 - "i could get a cheap steering column (for a driving
game) for ridiculous
		motm control"
		3 - "graphics tablet anyone..? (if i traced a picture of
myself, what sound
		would it produce..!?"

		cheers
		paul b



	
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Would it make more sense to use the old Apple II joysticks with the DB-9
connector? I know that these joysticks were wired directly to the pots, the
PC joysticks I have had, all have some type of internal processing and send
data instead of voltages. -Nate

> From:
>"Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
>
>
>If I can find a big enough die punch, I was thinking to make a module using
>
>the IBM DB-15 connector, so any old PC joystick would just plug right in.
>
>That way,
>
>you can have a cable away from the panel.
>
>
>
>Paul S.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

That's a really cool idea if we could find the fight kind of joysticks (or
DIY).  I like the idea of having something remote.  But, I also like the
thing just hanging there (Larry, looking at joystick already mounted and
sticking out of beautiful MOTM panel). For many of us with Kentons, we
already have the capability of remote joystick control at our MIDI
keyboards.  My controller let's me assign any MIDI CC# controller to each
of the joystick axis directions.  So, I can get CV from it already via
Kenton aux out.  But, the joystick connector is a cool idea.  Each person
could customize the "remote" end.  Or, of course, use the remote MOTAJS. 
:)
Larry

----------
> From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
> To: motm@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] Joystick stuff - circuits
> Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 11:25 PM
> 
> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> 
> If I can find a big enough die punch, I was thinking to make a module
using

> the IBM DB-15 connector, so any old PC joystick would just plug right in.
> That way,
> you can have a cable away from the panel.
> 
> Paul S.

> Would it make more sense to use the old Apple II joysticks with the DB-9
> connector? I know that these joysticks were wired directly to the pots,
the
> PC joysticks I have had, all have some type of internal processing and
send
> data instead of voltages. -Nate
>

Incorrect. The pots are brought out to individual pins. Inside the PC, dual
555 timers are
used to generate 1-shot pulses of variable width. Writing to an I/O port
(201H, I think)
resets the 1-shots, then the width is read.

Some "modern" PC chip sets use a 8-bit ADC and read the value directly.

Paul S.

In a message dated 02/22/2000 12:26:38 AM, synth1@... writes:

<< If I can find a big enough die punch, I was thinking to make a module using

the IBM DB-15 connector, so any old PC joystick would just plug right in. >>

Definitely a market for this.  This is an especially nice idea since the user 
can then use anything from a surplus PC joystick to one of the high-end 
industrial units, as long as there are trim adjusts for the different 
potentiometer values.

I just got in a few joysticks; will check them out tonight and post my 
findings.

Ivan

Wow! Normal and Bradley together! Who'd a thunk it! 

But remember, several modules can't have normalled inputs do to using the NC 
terminal connecting to ground on some inputs -- this got me into trouble with 
the 410 while using banana jacks.

Joysticks:
Hey! You want a joystick that doesn't return to the center (origin)? Open it 
up and remove the springs! Better yet! Try removing the spring from one axis 
and leaving the other one on.

In a message dated 2/21/2000 10:26:35 PM, synth1@... writes:

>If I can find a big enough die punch, I was thinking to make a module using
>the IBM DB-15 connector, so any old PC joystick would just plug right in.
>That way,
>you can have a cable away from the panel.


I've been hoping you'd do something like this! I really like this idea!

In a message dated 2/21/2000 11:22:33 PM, jlarryh@... writes:
>More joystick ramblings.

>And, while I was working on my schematic, I finally decided what I am going
>to do with that dang button on top.  It will have two functions.

>mode 1:  When the button is pressed.  Voltage on all 4 outputs goes to
>zero.  I think I have this figured out.  To me this would make it very
>easy
>to adjust the "trim" or "offset" to the exact zero point by ear quickly.

>mode 2: Button generates a gate.

I like mode 1 (it didn't occur to me until I gave it some thought how useful 
this might be -- though I thought about having a three position switch to 
select CALIBRATE X  OFF CALIBRATE Y -- Larry, don't you mean two outputs, or 
am I missing something?), but it might make things a bit difficult to figure 
out how to do it.

I happened to be inside of a couple of Apple II joysticks yesterday, as luck 
would have it. While these are easily findable (via surplus) they need to be 
hacked in order to be useful. They do use a DB-9, but I'd prefer more pins, a 
DB-15 would be good! They have 150K pots and three buttons (one on the stick, 
two on the sides). They also have mechanical offset adjustments (??? -- the 
pot moves as you adjust them), and switches to disconnect the spring return 
for each axis (kick ass!).

So here's what I thought about today: 
2U panel
Four pots -- X OFFSET, Y OFFSET, X SCALE, Y SCALE (scale pots are reversing 
attenuators, naturally).
9 Jacks (I know! Do it like the 300) -- GATE A, GATE B, GATE C, X left INPUT, 
Y bottom INPUT, X right INPUT, Y top INPUT, X OUT, Y OUT
DB-15 connector (top left of panel).
Mode switch -- 3 position to calibrate the joystick offsets.

I've been thinking of having separate inputs to allow crossfading from two 
sources (CV or audio). I finally realized this was possible with some 
slightly more sophisticated switching jacks than Paul typically uses. Very 
difficult to describe, but with nothing plugged in each joystick pot would 
have +V on one side, -V on the other. Plugging in a jack to the right (or 
top) input both disconnects the +V (while connecting the input) and 
disconnects the -V (while connecting ground, or the left (or bottom) input if 
something is plugged in to that input).

Any thoughts?

Larry, I didn't follow the PAiA CV input you mentioned.

John B.

> From: jwbarlow@...
> Wow! Normal and Bradley together! Who'd a thunk it! 

I think normal and Barlow together would be more amazing <grin>

> In a message dated 2/21/2000 11:22:33 PM, jlarryh@... writes:
> >More joystick ramblings.
> 
> >And, while I was working on my schematic, I finally decided what I am
going
> >to do with that dang button on top.  It will have two functions.
> 
> >mode 1:  When the button is pressed.  Voltage on all 4 outputs goes to
> >zero.  I think I have this figured out.  To me this would make it very
> >easy
> >to adjust the "trim" or "offset" to the exact zero point by ear quickly.
> 
> >mode 2: Button generates a gate.
> 
> I like mode 1 (it didn't occur to me until I gave it some thought how
useful 
> this might be -- though I thought about having a three position switch to

> select CALIBRATE X  OFF CALIBRATE Y -- Larry, don't you mean two outputs,
or 
> am I missing something?), but it might make things a bit difficult to
figure 
> out how to do it.

John, my joystick will have 4 voltages out at the same time.  Instead of X
and Y out using a polarity switch, I will put in unity gain inverters and
have X+, X-, Y+, and Y- outs all at the same time.

I have it drawn up.  I don't think it will be hard.  However, it isn't
built yet. So, we will see.

> So here's what I thought about today: 
> 2U panel
> Four pots -- X OFFSET, Y OFFSET, X SCALE, Y SCALE
> (scale pots are reversing attenuators, naturally).

The 4 outs eliminates the need for reversing attenuators.

> I've been thinking of having separate inputs to allow crossfading from
two 
> sources (CV or audio). I finally realized this was possible with some 
> slightly more sophisticated switching jacks than Paul typically uses.
Very 
> difficult to describe, but with nothing plugged in each joystick pot
would 
> have +V on one side, -V on the other. Plugging in a jack to the right (or

> top) input both disconnects the +V (while connecting the input) and 
> disconnects the -V (while connecting ground, or the left (or bottom)
input if 
> something is plugged in to that input).
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Larry, I didn't follow the PAiA CV input you mentioned.
> 
> John B.

John, This would be similar to what you are describing.  However, it would
be just a X IN and Y IN.  Plugging in the external CVs or audio would
disconnect the joystick and give you two reversing attenuators with
controls for gain and offset.

Larry

In a message dated 2/23/2000 6:13:15 PM, fvanaman@... writes:

>http://216.254.23.29/projects.htm

Beautiful cabinet Frank! I doubt mine will look anywhere near as good (if I 
ever get around to building one).


In a message dated 2/23/2000 3:13:41 PM, jlarryh@... writes:

>I think normal and Barlow together would be more amazing <grin>

You're not the first person to say that. In fact, the last time I heard 
something like that I had to respond: "your not so normal either, your Honor! 
Nor are any on this, so called, psychiatric panel. Why don't you all go...." 
but I digress.

So how did you get a big enough hole in a MOTM panel to allow a joystick to 
rotate fully? It looks like my non-computer joysticks (see 2 below) need 
about an inch or more diameter. I'm surprised this joystick thread died as 
quickly as it did, considering the once a month "alternative controller" 
thread which arises here.

Joystick resource:
ALLTRONICS San Jose CA (408) 943-9773  http://www.alltronics.com
1) Kraft two button joystick (PC compatible) $3.95 -- 97C022
2) Joystick -- two 150K pots (these look like they might be for control seats 
or mirrors in a car, they have an old door lock style "stick" with a wide 
diameter head -- maybe 1" -- they aren't spring return) $2.95 -- 93P05

These come from a catalog that is over a year old (but they haven't sent me a 
new one so it's worth a try).

It is quite! I'm hoping everyone is so jazzed about Paul's idea of mounting a 
DB-15 connector, and Celeste's Power Glove idea, that they are all working on 
how to implement these modules.
JB

> From: jwbarlow@...
> You're not the first person to say that. In fact, the
> last time I heard something like that I had to respond:
> "your not so normal either, your Honor!  Nor are any
> on this, so called, psychiatric panel. Why don't you 
> all go...."  but I digress.

Well, I just couldn't let you gig the head stooge (Moe) that easily and
escape unscathed.
 
> So how did you get a big enough hole in a MOTM panel
> to allow a joystick to rotate fully?

Well, it went like this:

1. Measure the size of hole required for joystick.

     The one I bought was made for panel mount.  So, it has
     a plastic trim that hides the actual cut in the metal.  Joystick
     assembly goes in from the back.  Plastic trim piece goes 
     on the front and the two screw together.  Looks nice

2.  Cover front of Paul's panel in heavy masking tape

3.  Draw hole on panel front.

4.  Drill hole near one edge.

5.  Get out hand held jig saw with metal blade.

6. Cut and follow line until you meet the place you started.

7.  Put grinding wheel in drill (drill press in your case).

8.  With wheel running, polish inside of hole to nice smooth surface.

9.  Drill small holes for joystick screws.

10. Remove protective tape

11  Insert joystick, trim and screw together.

Simple enough for a stooge.

Larry H