MOTM

WARNING: a bit of a rant, sorry.

Hey Paul, I have another dilemma about my order. I'm posting a rant on
the MOTM forum hehehe... I'd like you to ship the order soon, but I'm
getting more and more frustrated with knowing what filter I *really*
want. I might want to change my order a little bit. Sorry!

I was only getting the 420 because you said it was easy to build. Part
of my frustration is that, in my opinon, none of the audio demos
reveal how one filter sets itself apart from another filter. One
problem is that all the filters have audio demos of completely
different context (different modulation, different inputs, etc.). If I
want to hear a filter's character, I give it a low-pitch saw wave,
sweep the cutoff, and set the resonance to near-max and max. How a
filter self-oscillates and how a filter overdrives shows its
individual character, in my opinion.

Ok, so I've explained to you my frustration. Now we can start the
process of solving this frustration. First of all, in the analog
world, my favorite filter that I've owned so far is the Doepfer A-106-
1 Xtreme Filter. It can sound ugly, harsh, distorted, crazy, and
that's just how I like it. I also like my Analogue Systems RS-110
filter. The RS-110 is everything that the A-106-1 is not. It can sound
clean and/or growly. I like how the filter reacts to near-self
oscillation and high gain. I can provide audio demos to help you
understand what I'm describing.

Now that I said that, let me say this. Whichever filter I get, I
really want to have the ability to do dual resonance peaks. Also, the
filter must have at least two modes: Lowpass and something else. That
means the 490 and 440 are out as it's only a lowpass. The 410 is out
because it's only bandpass. There's nothing in the 480's description
that says it's harsh. The audio demos for the 480 are... kinda boring
(in my opinion, sorry!). That means the 480 is out. That leaves the
420 and the 485. According to their descriptions, they are both on the
harsher side. HOWEVER no audio demos SHOW IT (in my opinion). That's
my frustration! The only way (in my opinion) to reveal a filter's
harsh character is with near-max and max resonance with filter sweeps
with a low-pitch saw at relatively high gain.

I know what you're thinking. "If you haven't heard any audio demos you
like, maybe these filters aren't for you, look elsewhere!" However, I
want MOTM quality more than I want "my perfect filter." I'm willing to
compromise. I don't NEED A-106-1's crazyness. In the future I'll
definitely want to have all MOTM filters. But as for my FIRST
purchase, I do want the MOTM filter with the harshest character.

Finally, let me pose the questions:

1. What filter do you suggest for me?
2. Can you provide an audio demo with my specifications of the filter
you suggest? --- low-pitch saw (two or three octaves below middle C)
of relatively high gain, near-max and max resonance, filter sweeps in
lowpass mode.

FWIW: If you want 'potential for harsh/weird' just get a MOTM-485! ;-) I
don't have the specific tests you are looking for but I have a couple
YouTube videos that feature my new MOTM-485:

A bunch of fairly weird stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5h7BZaaL3A&fmt=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK0q6YomzMU&fmt=18

Mellow lead solo thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQW7gSM26kM&fmt=18

John L Rice

-----Original Message-----
From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
argitoth
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 12:41 AM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [motm] Frustrated with not knowing what MOTM filter to get first...

WARNING: a bit of a rant, sorry.

Hey Paul, I have another dilemma about my order. I'm posting a rant on
the MOTM forum hehehe... I'd like you to ship the order soon, but I'm
getting more and more frustrated with knowing what filter I *really*
want. I might want to change my order a little bit. Sorry!

I was only getting the 420 because you said it was easy to build. Part
of my frustration is that, in my opinon, none of the audio demos
reveal how one filter sets itself apart from another filter. One
problem is that all the filters have audio demos of completely
different context (different modulation, different inputs, etc.). If I
want to hear a filter's character, I give it a low-pitch saw wave,
sweep the cutoff, and set the resonance to near-max and max. How a
filter self-oscillates and how a filter overdrives shows its
individual character, in my opinion.

Ok, so I've explained to you my frustration. Now we can start the
process of solving this frustration. First of all, in the analog
world, my favorite filter that I've owned so far is the Doepfer A-106-
1 Xtreme Filter. It can sound ugly, harsh, distorted, crazy, and
that's just how I like it. I also like my Analogue Systems RS-110
filter. The RS-110 is everything that the A-106-1 is not. It can sound
clean and/or growly. I like how the filter reacts to near-self
oscillation and high gain. I can provide audio demos to help you
understand what I'm describing.

Now that I said that, let me say this. Whichever filter I get, I
really want to have the ability to do dual resonance peaks. Also, the
filter must have at least two modes: Lowpass and something else. That
means the 490 and 440 are out as it's only a lowpass. The 410 is out
because it's only bandpass. There's nothing in the 480's description
that says it's harsh. The audio demos for the 480 are... kinda boring
(in my opinion, sorry!). That means the 480 is out. That leaves the
420 and the 485. According to their descriptions, they are both on the
harsher side. HOWEVER no audio demos SHOW IT (in my opinion). That's
my frustration! The only way (in my opinion) to reveal a filter's
harsh character is with near-max and max resonance with filter sweeps
with a low-pitch saw at relatively high gain.

I know what you're thinking. "If you haven't heard any audio demos you
like, maybe these filters aren't for you, look elsewhere!" However, I
want MOTM quality more than I want "my perfect filter." I'm willing to
compromise. I don't NEED A-106-1's crazyness. In the future I'll
definitely want to have all MOTM filters. But as for my FIRST
purchase, I do want the MOTM filter with the harshest character.

Finally, let me pose the questions:

1. What filter do you suggest for me?
2. Can you provide an audio demo with my specifications of the filter
you suggest? --- low-pitch saw (two or three octaves below middle C)
of relatively high gain, near-max and max resonance, filter sweeps in
lowpass mode.



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Buy two filters. 420 + 440 or 490. 

Get a 480 and do the mod and you have 2 filters...
See Richard's site for the mod info.
Ciao,
ToAd

On Feb 18, 2009 15:49 "Jeff Laity" <synthetic@...> wrote:
> Buy two filters. 420 + 440 or 490. 
> On Feb 18, 2009, at 12:40 AM, argitoth wrote:
> > Now that I said that, let me say this. Whichever filter I get, I 
> > really want to have the ability to do dual resonance peaks. Also, the 
> > filter must have at least two modes: Lowpass and something else. That 
> > means the 490 and 440 are out as it's only a lowpass. The 410 is out 
> > because it's only bandpass. There's nothing in the 480's description 
> > that says it's harsh. The audio demos for the 480 are... kinda boring 
> > (in my opinion, sorry!). That means the 480 is out. That leaves the 
> > 420 and the 485. According to their descriptions, they are both on
> > the 
> > harsher side. HOWEVER no audio demos SHOW IT (in my opinion). That's 
> > my frustration! The only way (in my opinion) to reveal a filter's 
> > harsh character is with near-max and max resonance with filter sweeps 
> > with a low-pitch saw at relatively high gain.
> > I know what you're thinking. "If you haven't heard any audio demos
> > you 
> > like, maybe these filters aren't for you, look elsewhere!" However, I 
> > want MOTM quality more than I want "my perfect filter." I'm willing
> > to 
> > compromise. I don't NEED A-106-1's crazyness. In the future I'll 
> > definitely want to have all MOTM filters. But as for my FIRST 
> > purchase, I do want the MOTM filter with the harshest character.
> > Finally, let me pose the questions:
> > 1. What filter do you suggest for me?
> > 2. Can you provide an audio demo with my specifications of the filter 
> > you suggest? --- low-pitch saw (two or three octaves below middle C) 
> > of relatively high gain, near-max and max resonance, filter sweeps in 
> > lowpass mode.
>

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Laity <synthetic@...> wrote:

>
> Buy two filters. 420 + 440 or 490.

I'd second that advice: the 440 + 420 (in HPF mode) is my most
frequently used filter setup by far.

The 440 is still the best filter I've ever heard on any synth ever!

Harry

I ditto that. My standard chain is 440 - 480 - 410. Sometimes I insert
the 485. This chain sounds SOO GOOD. Thanks Paul.
And you can drive them all hard to growl. Especially the 485. And the
480 with its 2 resonant tops gives a lot of shaping possibilities.

hi

Gregory

>
> The 440 is still the best filter I've ever heard on any synth ever!
>
> Harry
>

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "argitoth" <argitoth@...> wrote:

>
> WARNING: a bit of a rant, sorry.
>
> Hey Paul, I have another dilemma about my order. I'm posting a rant on
> the MOTM forum hehehe... I'd like you to ship the order soon, but I'm
> getting more and more frustrated with knowing what filter I *really*
> want. I might want to change my order a little bit. Sorry!
>
> I was only getting the 420 because you said it was easy to build. Part
> of my frustration is that, in my opinon, none of the audio demos
> reveal how one filter sets itself apart from another filter. One
> problem is that all the filters have audio demos of completely
> different context (different modulation, different inputs, etc.). If I
> want to hear a filter's character, I give it a low-pitch saw wave,
> sweep the cutoff, and set the resonance to near-max and max. How a
> filter self-oscillates and how a filter overdrives shows its
> individual character, in my opinion.
>
> Ok, so I've explained to you my frustration. Now we can start the
> process of solving this frustration. First of all, in the analog
> world, my favorite filter that I've owned so far is the Doepfer A-106-
> 1 Xtreme Filter. It can sound ugly, harsh, distorted, crazy, and
> that's just how I like it. I also like my Analogue Systems RS-110
> filter. The RS-110 is everything that the A-106-1 is not. It can sound
> clean and/or growly. I like how the filter reacts to near-self
> oscillation and high gain. I can provide audio demos to help you
> understand what I'm describing.
>
> Now that I said that, let me say this. Whichever filter I get, I
> really want to have the ability to do dual resonance peaks. Also, the
> filter must have at least two modes: Lowpass and something else. That
> means the 490 and 440 are out as it's only a lowpass. The 410 is out
> because it's only bandpass. There's nothing in the 480's description
> that says it's harsh. The audio demos for the 480 are... kinda boring
> (in my opinion, sorry!). That means the 480 is out. That leaves the
> 420 and the 485. According to their descriptions, they are both on the
> harsher side. HOWEVER no audio demos SHOW IT (in my opinion). That's
> my frustration! The only way (in my opinion) to reveal a filter's
> harsh character is with near-max and max resonance with filter sweeps
> with a low-pitch saw at relatively high gain.
>
> I know what you're thinking. "If you haven't heard any audio demos you
> like, maybe these filters aren't for you, look elsewhere!" However, I
> want MOTM quality more than I want "my perfect filter." I'm willing to
> compromise. I don't NEED A-106-1's crazyness. In the future I'll
> definitely want to have all MOTM filters. But as for my FIRST
> purchase, I do want the MOTM filter with the harshest character.
>
> Finally, let me pose the questions:
>
> 1. What filter do you suggest for me?
> 2. Can you provide an audio demo with my specifications of the filter
> you suggest? --- low-pitch saw (two or three octaves below middle C)
> of relatively high gain, near-max and max resonance, filter sweeps in
> lowpass mode.
>

I really appreciate all your responses. Every MOTM filter has been
suggested so far... ok lets really break this down.

John L Rice - 485
Koos Fockens - 420 440 490
Aaron Day - 485
Jeff Laity - 420 440 490
Tom Adam - 480
Cormallen - 440 420
Gregorykjar - 440 480 410 485

410 - 1
420 - 3
440 - 4
480 - 2
485 - 3
490 - 1

I've had my mind set on getting two 485s before I made this post. Over
the phone, Paul told me that the 485 is the craziest filter he has.
485 is mentioned 3 times in this thread...

> If you want I can record some straight forward MP3 filter sweeps for

you on all 3 filters in all settings , if you'd let me know how you'd
want me to do it. With only 1 VCO saw wave straight in at a set
frequency of about 440Hz or so or lower? Then sweeping the Freq and
Resonance respectively?

>
> Cheers,
>
> Koos

That would be dam awesome. Please use 50hz, that's like the 3rd G
below middle C. What I want to hear doesn't work with high pitches
like 440hz.

sorry guys, I'm having the most difficult time figuring out how to get
my messages to appear. I figured it out though! no more mistake posts.

Gaahh! Good God, man! Just pick the one you think sounds best! 

 

NOTICE: This electronic mail message and its contents, including any attachments hereto (collectively, "this e-mail"), is hereby designated as "confidential and proprietary." This e-mail may be viewed and used only by the person to whom it has been sent and his/her employer solely for the express purpose for which it has been disclosed and only in accordance with any confidentiality or non-disclosure (or similar) agreement between TEAC Corporation or its affiliates and said employer, and may not be disclosed to any other person or entity.

My votes would be for:

1. 480 ...if you want something versatile. Awesome for modular drum beats.
2 .485 ...if you want something wild/strange/awesome/fucked up/analog glitch.
3. 440 ...if you want something really classy that's not the Moog sound. BASS
4. 410 ...if you want something dreamy or like "talking" synth sounds.
5. 420 ...you like Air and Daft Punk sounds. Future/Retro/Now-o
6. 490 ...well ok...its the Moog modular sound. Solid but the filter I use least.

David Scott Stone

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Laity <synthetic@...> wrote:
>
> Gaahh! Good God, man! Just pick the one you think sounds best!
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2009, at 11:02 AM, argitoth wrote:
>
> > I really appreciate all your responses. Every MOTM filter has been
> > suggested so far... ok lets really break this down.
> >
> > John L Rice - 485
> > Koos Fockens - 420 440 490
> > Aaron Day - 485
> > Jeff Laity - 420 440 490
> > Tom Adam - 480
> > Cormallen - 440 420
> > Gregorykjar - 440 480 410 485
> >
> > 410 - 1
> > 420 - 3
> > 440 - 4
> > 480 - 2
> > 485 - 3
> > 490 - 1
> >
> > I've had my mind set on getting two 485s before I made this post. Over
> > the phone, Paul told me that the 485 is the craziest filter he has.
> > 485 is mentioned 3 times in this thread...
>
>
> NOTICE: This electronic mail message and its contents, including any attachments
hereto (collectively, "this e-mail"), is hereby designated as "confidential and proprietary."
This e-mail may be viewed and used only by the person to whom it has been sent and
his/her employer solely for the express purpose for which it has been disclosed and only
in accordance with any confidentiality or non-disclosure (or similar) agreement between
TEAC Corporation or its affiliates and said employer, and may not be disclosed to any
other person or entity.  
>  
>
>
>
>
>  
>

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "argitoth" <argitoth@...> wrote:

>
> sorry guys, I'm having the most difficult time figuring out how to get
> my messages to appear. I figured it out though! no more mistake posts.
>

Filter sweeps now downloadable via : http://homepage.mac.com/torikoos/FileSharing1.html

Hope these are usefull to you and making a decision on what to get. :-)
Details on my blog at : www.motmsynth.blogspot.com

Koos

Thanks for taking the time to do that! It gives me some idea on how it
sounds, it definitely accomplishes the goal of showing each filter in
the same context. According to this ms-20 video:
http://tv.sonicstate.com/play.php?vid=296 (2:25)...

...according to that video, the ms-20 is known for being abrasive
because of its ability to feedback into itself. Your audio demo shows
that all those filters can be at least a little aggressive. What
Koos's audio demo is helping me realize is that I have the wrong
mindset about filters. First of all, by feeding ANY filter into itself
will cause it to become wild (in my experience). Therefore, I
shouldn't look for the craziest filter, because all filters can become
nicely crazy under the right circumstances. BUT! The quality of a
filter lies within its NON-crazy zones, doesn't it? Then again, some
filters have a distinct growl that I like, the 490 for example. In
this video: http://tv.sonicstate.com/play.php?vid=163 (4:52)...

...in that video you can hear the lowpass growling/screaming/self-
oscillation. I'm sure the 420 can sound like that. Koos, I think I
gave you the idea that you should have the gain so high that it
overpowers the resonance.

ANYWAY, the point is... I don't think it matters what filter I get,
I'm sure they all sound great. 490 and 420 (as far as I know) have the
growl I like. 420 is a good choice... Knowing how crazy the A-106-1
Xtreme Filter is, it would make a horrible choice as my only filter.
Hopefully the 485 not so crazy that it would make a bad choice as my
only filter. My conclusion is that I'm going to take a risk and build
two 485s.

As I understand it, the 485 is the most distorted MOTM filter. I would
choose only one of those and the other a 420, 440 or something else.
You can always add more. I'll bet that the 485 is the least-selling
filter. 420 can be clean if you don't overdrive it, but distorts nicely.

I just realized that Koos and I have the same filter collection: 420,
440, 490. But you can't have a MOTM and not have a 440. :)

On Feb 19, 2009, at 9:36 AM, argitoth wrote:

> Thanks for taking the time to do that! It gives me some idea on how it
> sounds, it definitely accomplishes the goal of showing each filter in
> the same context. According to this ms-20 video:
> http://tv.sonicstate.com/play.php?vid=296 (2:25)...
>
> ...according to that video, the ms-20 is known for being abrasive
> because of its ability to feedback into itself. Your audio demo shows
> that all those filters can be at least a little aggressive. What
> Koos's audio demo is helping me realize is that I have the wrong
> mindset about filters. First of all, by feeding ANY filter into itself
> will cause it to become wild (in my experience). Therefore, I
> shouldn't look for the craziest filter, because all filters can become
> nicely crazy under the right circumstances. BUT! The quality of a
> filter lies within its NON-crazy zones, doesn't it? Then again, some
> filters have a distinct growl that I like, the 490 for example. In
> this video: http://tv.sonicstate.com/play.php?vid=163 (4:52)...
>
> ...in that video you can hear the lowpass growling/screaming/self-
> oscillation. I'm sure the 420 can sound like that. Koos, I think I
> gave you the idea that you should have the gain so high that it
> overpowers the resonance.
>
> ANYWAY, the point is... I don't think it matters what filter I get,
> I'm sure they all sound great. 490 and 420 (as far as I know) have the
> growl I like. 420 is a good choice... Knowing how crazy the A-106-1
> Xtreme Filter is, it would make a horrible choice as my only filter.
> Hopefully the 485 not so crazy that it would make a bad choice as my
> only filter. My conclusion is that I'm going to take a risk and build
> two 485s.
>


NOTICE: This electronic mail message and its contents, including any attachments hereto (collectively, "this e-mail"), is hereby designated as "confidential and proprietary." This e-mail�may be viewed and used only by the person to whom it has been sent and his/her employer�solely for the express purpose for which it has been disclosed and only in�accordance with any confidentiality or non-disclosure (or similar) agreement between TEAC Corporation or its affiliates and said employer, and may not be disclosed to any other person or entity. �
�




�

Hey, would anyone happen to have time to post a demo of the 485, input
a 50hz saw, let the filter self oscillate, sweep the cutoff? The
reason I'm asking is because... I usually feel like there's not enough
solid, academic audio demos of modules, maybe that's because no one
asks for them. So here I am, asking for a demo of the 485.

Thanks in advance,
-Elan

Hey John L Rice, you video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=C5h7BZaaL3A&fmt=18

I don't really need anymore audio demos of the 485. I like the
crazyness you reveal in that video. But... you say the lowpass mode is
tame? What happens when you set the resonance to max or near-max, does
it still sound tame?

James Elliot, what you are saying must be true. If you find one of my
earlier posts I explain that very thing. Because any filter can sound
crazy in the right context (especially in feedback patches) I think
getting two 485 is the worst possible choice as my first purchase. It
would be wiser to get two different filters for more flexability in
filter sound. But I think in the end it will be really interesting
what you can do with two 485s.

Another point I want to make is that... you know I'm selling almost
all my eurorack modules. When I build my MOTM system I want to try
things I was had in eurorack: two of the same filter, lag with
variable lin/log shape, three oscillators, and other things I can't
think of right now. I've already experienced having three COMPLETELY
different filters (Plan B Model 12, Analogue Systems RS-110, Doepfer
A-106-1). I want to try something new!

***Typo Correction to my lasts post***: When I build my MOTM system I
want to try things I DIDN'T HAVE in eurorack.

Here's something I did in MS Paint:

http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/patch_01.PNG
http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/patch_02.PNG

I did this to figure out how many patch cables I would need to make
for myself. I already made 5. It seems that 3 patch cables per module
is a good estimate. I'll have 7 modules. 7 x 3 = 21. I better aim to
make 21. The cables coming from midi don't count because I'm not
making them. They will be 1/4 to 1/8 cables I will buy from
radioshack.

I'll take pictures of my cables once I get the heatshrink on...
heatshrink still on its way in the mail.

Here is my advice on patch cables: buy more than you think you need mostly in lengths longer than you think you need.  There is nothing more frustrating than suddenly having a burst of inspiration and finding you don't have a 4' cable.  If you start with 7 modules, you might end with 14.  If not, you'll be able to sell them at a small discount to the group if they're of a good quality.  Your investment won't be lost and you're creativity won't be cramped.

cheers,
eric f

--- On Fri, 2/20/09, argitoth <argitoth@...> wrote:

From: argitoth <argitoth@...>
Subject: [motm] Re: Frustrated with not knowing what MOTM filter to get first...
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 9:57 PM

Here's something I did in MS Paint:

http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ patch_01. PNG
http://www.elanhick ler.com/misc/ patch_02. PNG

I did this to figure out how many patch cables I would need to make
for myself. I already made 5. It seems that 3 patch cables per module
is a good estimate. I'll have 7 modules. 7 x 3 = 21. I better aim to
make 21. The cables coming from midi don't count because I'm not
making them. They will be 1/4 to 1/8 cables I will buy from
radioshack.

I'll take pictures of my cables once I get the heatshrink on...
heatshrink still on its way in the mail.

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, eric f <ach_gott@...> wrote:

> Here is my advice on patch cables: buy more than you think you need

mostly in lengths longer than you think you need.  There is nothing
more frustrating than suddenly having a burst of inspiration and
finding you don't have a 4' cable.  If you start with 7 modules, you
might end with 14.  If not, you'll be able to sell them at a small
discount to the group if they're of a good quality.  Your investment
won't be lost and you're creativity won't be cramped.

>
> cheers,
> eric f

Eric, I know what you're saying. Actually, I ordered a total of 40
switchcraft connectors from Sweetwater so I could make a total of 20
patch cables. My experience with eurorack modules has given me a good
idea on what patch cable setup I like.

-I like colorful patch cables.
-I do not color-code signals. Color is used for seeing where a patch
cable leads to. I prefer lots of colors.

Eric, just as frustrating as not having a long enough cable is having
3 sizes of cables of similar lengths. It's frustrating to grab a cable
that's a few inches too short and have to waste time figuring out what
length to put where. That's why I'm only making 40inch cables for now.
If I need a bigger size, it'll probably be 120inch cables, a big
difference in length.

From: argitoth <argitoth@...>
Subject: [motm] Re: Frustrated with not knowing what MOTM filter to get first...
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 6:13 PM

Hey, would anyone happen to have time to post a demo of the 485, input
a 50hz saw, let the filter self oscillate, sweep the cutoff? The
reason I'm asking is because... I usually feel like there's not enough
solid, academic audio demos of modules, maybe that's because no one
asks for them. So here I am, asking for a demo of the 485.

Thanks in advance,
-Elan