Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

Thread

Is making 'bad music' too easy?

2008-09-12 by Paul Schreiber

I blame the TB-303 and the Linn Drum for the downfall :)

Most people think it was all the DX-7's fault (followed then by the D-50, 
the M-1 and the WaveStation). But I think drum machines, samplers, and 
easy-to-use MIDI sequencing programs like Cakewalk turned 1000s of idle 
fanboys into "Hey, I'm a *musician!". There is no parallel in say any 
symphonic instrument (every try to play a French horn?), piano, acoustic 
guitar (electric guitar...shredding...meh) or even acoustic drums. But $2000 
worth of MIDI'd synths, a Mac, some plugins, and....."Hey, I'm a 
*musician*!".

Now, it's not that these people can't generate anything useful, some can. 
But, if these *same people* were given a MiniMoog, a SEM module and a 
Mellotron, I doubt "Synergy" would be the end result.

But I think the biggest factor is the relative cost. Back in the day, only 
talented musicians that had big $$$ could even afford this stuff. And if you 
couldn't sell enough records to justify the equipment cost, no soup for you! 
I remember Rick Wakeman grousing in 'Keyboard' that all his gear cost 20 
TIMES what (guitarist) Steve Howe paid for his.

Now, it's the exact opposite in a lot of cases. If you want a really good 
guitar and a really good amp plus say 5 boutique pedals, you are up in the 
$6K range. For 1/2 that, you could get a whole boatload of MIDI 
modules/computer/I/O/etc.

Last thing: my family's business when I was growing up was art supplies: 
paint, brushes, canvas, frames, etc. All of the really good artists were 
very *precise* about the supplies. Every single one had only a certain brush 
style, a specific brand and color of blue paint, etc. THEY certainly cared 
about the HOW. The people that bought them? Only the WHAT. I used to be able 
to go into any museum/gallery and tell how the paint was mixed, layered on, 
the brush strokes, etc. But no one cared, in fact they thought I was a bit 
"strange" for even caring. "Why can't you just enjoyed the friggin' 
painting?" my wife would say, rolling her eyes as I touted the virtue of 
Grumbacher burnt sienna applied by a #4 red sable brush, fantail pattern, 
OBVIOUSLY by a left-handed female artist. Can't you see, it's RIGHT THERE!

Unless you are a kid like me whose favorite TV program growing up was Mr. 
Roger's tour of the pencil factory, the "all modular" appreciation will be 
down in the 'long tail'. But if Kenneth makes the CD I know he can, I'll buy 
it. And appreciate every patch and note.

For those not familiar with his MOTM stuff, try these (just keep your 
opinions to yourself):

http://synthtech.com/demo/motm_recorder.mp3

http://synthtech.com/demo/motm_synergy.mp3

http://synthtech.com/demo/motmbrass.mp3

http://synthtech.com/demo/lost_at_sea.mp3


And my favorite "imitative" patch is from Russell Brower's game soundtrack 
for 'Black Hawk Down':

http://synthtech.com/demo/d_reed.mp3

Paul S.
taking a MOTM-830 kitting break

Re: [motm] Is making 'bad music' too easy?

2008-09-12 by Neil Bradley

> Most people think it was all the DX-7's fault (followed then by the D-50,
> the M-1 and the WaveStation). But I think drum machines, samplers, and
> easy-to-use MIDI sequencing programs like Cakewalk turned 1000s of idle
> fanboys into "Hey, I'm a *musician!".

Nah. Reason (the software package) started the downfall. Now it's DJs who 
think they are "musicians" by rearranging others' loops.

-->Neil

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
C. Neil Bradley - KE7IXP - The one eyed man in the land of the blind is not
                            king. He's a prisoner.

Re: [motm] Is making 'bad music' too easy?

2008-09-12 by eric f

Mr. Rich, your thoughts?

In spite of the man oh man vote, I think this is a valuable conversation which those of us who ae interested in such things can take offline as we see fit.  But as long as the lord of the manor feels it's fit for the dinner table, I don't see why those who could care less can't delete.  I admire the Wiard list for their ability to carry on tangents and we've been civil enough so far.

If I pick up a TB303 and a LinnDrumm (or sit right here and use Cakewalk and my modular) and do Bach's "Little Prelude" and you're going to evaluate it as good or bad are you going to say "Gosh that's a nice tonicization of the dominant there"  or are you going to say "Sounds like acid, what crap!"  If Jack Dangers quoted that piece with a backbeat in a musical context would Ken have picked up on the quote or sniffed at the orchestration?

There is a school of thought here that holds up icons ("Synergy", Tomita, etc.) or imitative synthesis as aspirations like we're in art school sketching Monet's haystacks.  Those samples are nice and clearly a lot of time and effort went into them, but not one is a complete composition or tells me anything other than "sounds like a recorder".  I have plenty of Harmonia Mundi records with recorder that make my butt wiggle all troubadour-style.  What the heck do you want me to take away from these?  They helped sell me on almost three cabinets' modules, but not because I'm going to one-up some well-sexed French dude in tights.

What access to technology has done, and has been doing since valves were added to instruments (pathetic bassoon players can't play a horn without holes and valves by adjusting the embouchure... a real controversy at one time), is broaden the availability to the tools of expression.  Can Golijov play any of the miriad instruments for which he composes?  If he writes a rough in Cakewalk with the rest of us boys to hear how it comes out, how is the performance I hear changed?  Did Ken, sitting down in front samples of Jack Dangers do a Schenkerian analysis, offer a well-thought exposition on the timbre of the samples?  No.

Your synthesizer does not make me a better artist.  It broadens the range of expression and it's my place to utilize that range as best I can.  If your parents' paints made the artists I'll happily search out their works and proffer my opinions.  Give me the HOW of a piece and we'll take a comparable composition out of what Chicago has to offer, I'll buy your plane ticket, I'll feed you fabulously well for a weekend, and you can expand my artistic horizons.  (Time it for AHMW next year and you can debut something brilliant.)  

As for your last paragraph, let Ken offer one song.  Forget a CD.  He's bloviated on enough forums, been chastized elsewhere for the same.  I'll offer one in return.  Let's open it up to everyone, put a deadline on it.  We can sit down, do a Schenkerian analysis, we can talk voice leading, analyze timbres, and debate until we're blue in the fingers.  And we can discuss whose piece hits you in the gut.  And it's good for the business.    MOTM, the thinking musicians' modular.

I'm more than willing to lose the challenge, teach me something.  Ken?

Money meet mouth,
eric f








--- On Thu, 9/11/08, Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
Subject: [motm] Is making 'bad music' too easy?
To: "MOTM List" <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 11:05 PM

            I blame the TB-303 and the Linn Drum for the downfall :)

Most people think it was all the DX-7's fault (followed then by the D-50, 

the M-1 and the WaveStation) . But I think drum machines, samplers, and 

easy-to-use MIDI sequencing programs like Cakewalk turned 1000s of idle 

fanboys into "Hey, I'm a *musician!". There is no parallel in say any 

symphonic instrument (every try to play a French horn?), piano, acoustic 

guitar (electric guitar...shredding. ..meh) or even acoustic drums. But $2000 

worth of MIDI'd synths, a Mac, some plugins, and....."Hey, I'm a 

*musician*!" .

Now, it's not that these people can't generate anything useful, some can. 

But, if these *same people* were given a MiniMoog, a SEM module and a 

Mellotron, I doubt "Synergy" would be the end result.

But I think the biggest factor is the relative cost. Back in the day, only 

talented musicians that had big $$$ could even afford this stuff. And if you 

couldn't sell enough records to justify the equipment cost, no soup for you! 

I remember Rick Wakeman grousing in 'Keyboard' that all his gear cost 20 

TIMES what (guitarist) Steve Howe paid for his.

Now, it's the exact opposite in a lot of cases. If you want a really good 

guitar and a really good amp plus say 5 boutique pedals, you are up in the 

$6K range. For 1/2 that, you could get a whole boatload of MIDI 

modules/computer/ I/O/etc.

Last thing: my family's business when I was growing up was art supplies: 

paint, brushes, canvas, frames, etc. All of the really good artists were 

very *precise* about the supplies. Every single one had only a certain brush 

style, a specific brand and color of blue paint, etc. THEY certainly cared 

about the HOW. The people that bought them? Only the WHAT. I used to be able 

to go into any museum/gallery and tell how the paint was mixed, layered on, 

the brush strokes, etc. But no one cared, in fact they thought I was a bit 

"strange" for even caring. "Why can't you just enjoyed the friggin' 

painting?" my wife would say, rolling her eyes as I touted the virtue of 

Grumbacher burnt sienna applied by a #4 red sable brush, fantail pattern, 

OBVIOUSLY by a left-handed female artist. Can't you see, it's RIGHT THERE!

Unless you are a kid like me whose favorite TV program growing up was Mr. 

Roger's tour of the pencil factory, the "all modular" appreciation will be 

down in the 'long tail'. But if Kenneth makes the CD I know he can, I'll buy 

it. And appreciate every patch and note.

For those not familiar with his MOTM stuff, try these (just keep your 

opinions to yourself):

http://synthtech. com/demo/ motm_recorder. mp3

http://synthtech. com/demo/ motm_synergy. mp3

http://synthtech. com/demo/ motmbrass. mp3

http://synthtech. com/demo/ lost_at_sea. mp3

And my favorite "imitative" patch is from Russell Brower's game soundtrack 

for 'Black Hawk Down':

http://synthtech. com/demo/ d_reed.mp3

Paul S.

taking a MOTM-830 kitting break

Re: [motm] Is making 'bad music' too easy?

2008-09-12 by ROV PILOT

Another thing that 'we' from the DAW generation tend to forget : the time needed in the past (to physically cut and reassemble tapes instead of cmd C / cmd V) was forcing musicians to think their music a priori. Too often, real-time access to audio data is killing composition. Listen to Bernard Parmegiani's De Natura Sonorum, between so many other works...

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- On Thu, 9/11/08, Paul Schreiber wrote:

From: Paul Schreiber
Subject: [motm] Is making 'bad music' too easy?
To: "MOTM List"
Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 11:05 PM

I blame the TB-303 and the Linn Drum for the downfall :)

Most people think it was all the DX-7's fault (followed then by the D-50,
the M-1 and the WaveStation) . But I think drum machines, samplers, and
easy-to-use MIDI sequencing programs like Cakewalk turned 1000s of idle
fanboys into "Hey, I'm a *musician!". There is no parallel in say any
symphonic instrument (every try to play a French horn?), piano, acoustic
guitar (electric guitar...shredding. ..meh) or even acoustic drums. But $2000
worth of MIDI'd synths, a Mac, some plugins, and....."Hey, I'm a
*musician*!" .

Now, it's not that these people can't generate anything useful, some can.
But, if these *same people* were given a MiniMoog, a SEM module and a
Mellotron, I doubt "Synergy" would be the end result.

But I think the biggest factor is the relative cost. Back in the day, only
talented musicians that had big $$$ could even afford this stuff. And if you
couldn't sell enough records to justify the equipment cost, no soup for you!
I remember Rick Wakeman grousing in 'Keyboard' that all his gear cost 20
TIMES what (guitarist) Steve Howe paid for his.

Now, it's the exact opposite in a lot of cases. If you want a really good
guitar and a really good amp plus say 5 boutique pedals, you are up in the
$6K range. For 1/2 that, you could get a whole boatload of MIDI
modules/computer/ I/O/etc.

Last thing: my family's business when I was growing up was art supplies:
paint, brushes, canvas, frames, etc. All of the really good artists were
very *precise* about the supplies. Every single one had only a certain brush
style, a specific brand and color of blue paint, etc. THEY certainly cared
about the HOW. The people that bought them? Only the WHAT. I used to be able
to go into any museum/gallery and tell how the paint was mixed, layered on,
the brush strokes, etc. But no one cared, in fact they thought I was a bit
"strange" for even caring. "Why can't you just enjoyed the friggin'
painting?" my wife would say, rolling her eyes as I touted the virtue of
Grumbacher burnt sienna applied by a #4 red sable brush, fantail pattern,
OBVIOUSLY by a left-handed female artist. Can't you see, it's RIGHT THERE!

Unless you are a kid like me whose favorite TV program growing up was Mr.
Roger's tour of the pencil factory, the "all modular" appreciation will be
down in the 'long tail'. But if Kenneth makes the CD I know he can, I'll buy
it. And appreciate every patch and note.

For those not familiar with his MOTM stuff, try these (just keep your
opinions to yourself):

http://synthtech. com/demo/ motm_recorder. mp3

http://synthtech. com/demo/ motm_synergy. mp3

http://synthtech. com/demo/ motmbrass. mp3

http://synthtech. com/demo/ lost_at_sea. mp3

And my favorite "imitative" patch is from Russell Brower's game soundtrack
for 'Black Hawk Down':

http://synthtech. com/demo/ d_reed.mp3

Paul S.
taking a MOTM-830 kitting break

RE: [motm] Is making 'bad music' too easy?

2008-09-12 by Greg James

It's no different than software: $2000 worth of PC and software, and...
"Hey, I'm a *programmer*!".

Same phenomena plays out in field after field where cost-of-entry is
perpetually lowered.

Show quoted textHide quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Schreiber
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 12:06 AM
To: MOTM List
Subject: [motm] Is making 'bad music' too easy?

I blame the TB-303 and the Linn Drum for the downfall :)

Most people think it was all the DX-7's fault (followed then by the D-50, 
the M-1 and the WaveStation). But I think drum machines, samplers, and 
easy-to-use MIDI sequencing programs like Cakewalk turned 1000s of idle 
fanboys into "Hey, I'm a *musician!". There is no parallel in say any 
symphonic instrument (every try to play a French horn?), piano, acoustic 
guitar (electric guitar...shredding...meh) or even acoustic drums. But $2000

worth of MIDI'd synths, a Mac, some plugins, and....."Hey, I'm a 
*musician*!".

Now, it's not that these people can't generate anything useful, some can. 
But, if these *same people* were given a MiniMoog, a SEM module and a 
Mellotron, I doubt "Synergy" would be the end result.

But I think the biggest factor is the relative cost. Back in the day, only 
talented musicians that had big $$$ could even afford this stuff. And if you

couldn't sell enough records to justify the equipment cost, no soup for you!

I remember Rick Wakeman grousing in 'Keyboard' that all his gear cost 20 
TIMES what (guitarist) Steve Howe paid for his.

Now, it's the exact opposite in a lot of cases. If you want a really good 
guitar and a really good amp plus say 5 boutique pedals, you are up in the 
$6K range. For 1/2 that, you could get a whole boatload of MIDI 
modules/computer/I/O/etc.

Last thing: my family's business when I was growing up was art supplies: 
paint, brushes, canvas, frames, etc. All of the really good artists were 
very *precise* about the supplies. Every single one had only a certain brush

style, a specific brand and color of blue paint, etc. THEY certainly cared 
about the HOW. The people that bought them? Only the WHAT. I used to be able

to go into any museum/gallery and tell how the paint was mixed, layered on, 
the brush strokes, etc. But no one cared, in fact they thought I was a bit 
"strange" for even caring. "Why can't you just enjoyed the friggin' 
painting?" my wife would say, rolling her eyes as I touted the virtue of 
Grumbacher burnt sienna applied by a #4 red sable brush, fantail pattern, 
OBVIOUSLY by a left-handed female artist. Can't you see, it's RIGHT THERE!

Unless you are a kid like me whose favorite TV program growing up was Mr. 
Roger's tour of the pencil factory, the "all modular" appreciation will be 
down in the 'long tail'. But if Kenneth makes the CD I know he can, I'll buy

it. And appreciate every patch and note.

For those not familiar with his MOTM stuff, try these (just keep your 
opinions to yourself):

http://synthtech.com/demo/motm_recorder.mp3

http://synthtech.com/demo/motm_synergy.mp3

http://synthtech.com/demo/motmbrass.mp3

http://synthtech.com/demo/lost_at_sea.mp3

And my favorite "imitative" patch is from Russell Brower's game soundtrack 
for 'Black Hawk Down':

http://synthtech.com/demo/d_reed.mp3

Paul S.
taking a MOTM-830 kitting break

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [motm] Is making 'bad music' too easy?

2008-09-12 by Henrik

"...I found the Fairligt to be by far the most intuitively efficient and satisfying tool for manipulating sounds that I´ve ever used. And that includes modular synthesizers."

-Bob Moog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gno7xqWR9fg

Samplers is one of the instruments you blame. Bot ok, Mr Moog is talking about working with a Fairlight, not what music have been created with them. But ther is indeed musicians who can make great things with samplers.

Henrik

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- On Fri, 9/12/08, Paul Schreiber wrote:

From: Paul Schreiber
Subject: [motm] Is making 'bad music' too easy?
To: "MOTM List"
Date: Friday, September 12, 2008, 6:05 AM

I blame the TB-303 and the Linn Drum for the downfall :)

Most people think it was all the DX-7's fault (followed then by the D-50,
the M-1 and the WaveStation) . But I think drum machines, samplers, and
easy-to-use MIDI sequencing programs like Cakewalk turned 1000s of idle
fanboys into "Hey, I'm a *musician!". There is no parallel in say any
symphonic instrument (every try to play a French horn?), piano, acoustic
guitar (electric guitar...shredding. ..meh) or even acoustic drums. But $2000
worth of MIDI'd synths, a Mac, some plugins, and....."Hey, I'm a
*musician*!" .

Now, it's not that these people can't generate anything useful, some can.
But, if these *same people* were given a MiniMoog, a SEM module and a
Mellotron, I doubt "Synergy" would be the end result.

But I think the biggest factor is the relative cost. Back in the day, only
talented musicians that had big $$$ could even afford this stuff. And if you
couldn't sell enough records to justify the equipment cost, no soup for you!
I remember Rick Wakeman grousing in 'Keyboard' that all his gear cost 20
TIMES what (guitarist) Steve Howe paid for his.

Now, it's the exact opposite in a lot of cases. If you want a really good
guitar and a really good amp plus say 5 boutique pedals, you are up in the
$6K range. For 1/2 that, you could get a whole boatload of MIDI
modules/computer/ I/O/etc.

Last thing: my family's business when I was growing up was art supplies:
paint, brushes, canvas, frames, etc. All of the really good artists were
very *precise* about the supplies. Every single one had only a certain brush
style, a specific brand and color of blue paint, etc. THEY certainly cared
about the HOW. The people that bought them? Only the WHAT. I used to be able
to go into any museum/gallery and tell how the paint was mixed, layered on,
the brush strokes, etc. But no one cared, in fact they thought I was a bit
"strange" for even caring. "Why can't you just enjoyed the friggin'
painting?" my wife would say, rolling her eyes as I touted the virtue of
Grumbacher burnt sienna applied by a #4 red sable brush, fantail pattern,
OBVIOUSLY by a left-handed female artist. Can't you see, it's RIGHT THERE!

Unless you are a kid like me whose favorite TV program growing up was Mr.
Roger's tour of the pencil factory, the "all modular" appreciation will be
down in the 'long tail'. But if Kenneth makes the CD I know he can, I'll buy
it. And appreciate every patch and note.

For those not familiar with his MOTM stuff, try these (just keep your
opinions to yourself):

http://synthtech. com/demo/ motm_recorder. mp3

http://synthtech. com/demo/ motm_synergy. mp3

http://synthtech. com/demo/ motmbrass. mp3

http://synthtech. com/demo/ lost_at_sea. mp3

And my favorite "imitative" patch is from Russell Brower's game soundtrack
for 'Black Hawk Down':

http://synthtech. com/demo/ d_reed.mp3

Paul S.
taking a MOTM-830 kitting break