MOTM

> > sound like it was played on a Casio. But who, besides a handful, would
> > APPRECIATE it?
> 
> I've been bugging him to do this for some time now. I know *I'd* buy a 
> copy...
>

From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
Subject: [motm] Carlos/Tomita/Fast versus everything else
To: "MOTM List" <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 11:03 AM










    
            I think what Kenneth is talking about are the differences between the 

pioneering synth LPs of the past versus what is out there today.



a) in 1968 (S.O.B), the Moog modular, to most people, was on the level of 

'Star Trek'. It cost the same as *4* new Corvettes. And people back then 

still thought TV was 'magical'.



b) there was also back then a greater "appreciation of effort" for lack of a 

better term. Electronic music, up until S.O.B., was BugMusic on the highest 

order (all that tape splicing, musique concrete stuff). Then SOB rolls out, 

complete with NY Times articles about replacing musicians on Broadway, etc. 

But as to the technical tour de force required, many folks back then in the 

electronics hobbyist clan (like me) fully appreciated the work involved. 

Especially if you wandered into a music store and played with say a ARP 

Odyssey or MiniMoog for 5min. The first thought was "Holy Crap!, they could 

create those LPs from THIS??!?"



Remember, no ProTools, no super-whiz-bang plugins, no real fancy external 

effects processing.



Today, it is very difficult to find "sympathetic" people towards technology. 

iPods, cell phones, GPS? Meh....$100 at Best Buy. Nowadays, people just are 

not interested in the HOW, just the WHAT. The days when I used to read 

Popular Electronics like the Bible are over (I spent HOURS reading the 

'Build a Nixie Tube Clock' issue. To me, having an explanation how you use 

the 60Hz line frequency to then count with circuits was just the coolest 

thing in 1971 I could hope for).



The example I like to use is Toshi Doi of Sony and the CD player. (see 

http://www.eetimes. com/disruption/ profiles/ doi.jhtml) I personally think he 

is the smartest EE on the planet. When he was working on the CD player, his 

job was to figure out the physical format of the data on the disc (Philips 

part was to design the player itself). So, how long do you think he worked 

on it (the error correction, the indexing, the interleaving, etc). 1yr? 

3yrs? How about *10 years*, by *himself* all hand calculated on legal pads. 

Most people don't realize that the audio data content on a CD is about 40%, 

the other 60% is error correction and other stuff that allows horribly 

scratched CDs to play anyway. The audio you hear from a CD player was 

actually read off the disc about 400ms prior, you have to do the block 

Reed-Solomon ECC stuff before the DACs.



But CD players?...Pffttt. ...$29 at Target. Mostly now in cars. Toshi Doi? 

Who is THAT?



Sadly, I too miss the "good old days" of synth LPs (I used to collect them). 

Even the most cheesy Moog records, I bought EVERY ONE *just because*, well, 

it's Moog record! But to 'draw' the line' between a pure modular synth 

record (again, SOB) and a 'synthesizer record' (say Fast's first "Synergy") 

and then to a mostly synth CD (Robert Rich anything) is going to fall on 

deaf ears (so to speak) in today's world. With a bazillion bad YouTube 

videos, every record is sample-based and crappy MP3s on iPods played back by 

11 cent earbuds (yes, the stock Apple earbuds cost 11 cents) what do you 

expect?



I have no reservations that Kenneth could make a CD that would make SOB 

sound like it was played on a Casio. But who, besides a handful, would 

APPRECIATE it?



Paul S.

> 
> I have no reservations that Kenneth could make a CD that would make SOB 
> sound like it was played on a Casio. But who, besides a handful, would 
> APPRECIATE it?
> 
> Paul S.

From: eric f <ach_gott@...>
Subject: Re: [motm] Carlos/Tomita/Fast versus everything else
To: "MOTM List" <motm@yahoogroups.com>, "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 6:19 PM










    
            Your entire argument on behalf of Ken (and if that's what he was actually trying to say, he certainly should work a little harder on his emails) is based around the notion that the listener should fetishize how a record or song was made.  

That can be interesting, especially for us musiciany types, just as the technique used to produce a piece of visual art might be.  It can inform the appreciation, but I fail to see how it is the appreciation.  If you tell me that my coffee this morning was picked by a legless, one armed man on a mountainside, strapped to a goat, carried bean by bean to the roaster by a trained pigeon who ate it and pooped it whole into the (roasting oven?), I would put a lot of attention into my coffee drinking ritual.  But if it tastes like Folgers, it tastes like Folgers.

Most listening, though, is just
 like my morning coffee ritual: casual, done while occupied with other tasks, other thoughts.  It is an integrated part of the listener's worldlife and only a central part at moments that the listener, not the musician chooses.

You can poopoo this, lamenting as you have, the decline of the quality
listener, but you are incredibly late to the game.  Adorno was doing it
in 1938 ("On the Fetish Character of Music and the Regression of the
Listener") and even he was quick to point out that by gosh no generation hasn't said this.  

"I have no reservations that Kenneth could make a CD that would make SOB 

sound like it was played on a Casio. But who, besides a handful, would 

APPRECIATE it?" 

If the man can't write a song, and I have yet to hear an Elhardt piece, why would I care if it sounded nice?  It's the artist's duty to seduce the listener, not the listener's duty to honor the artist's stature or importance.

The presence of my synth isn't going to move anyone, repulse them, excite them, make them dance or cry or remember a sunny day or a rainy one or send them screaming from the room; its presence won't draw you into contemplation.  That's my job.  So make me more new kit, Mr. Schreiber, and inspire me to find new ways to do all of this.

cheers,
eric f


--- On Thu, 9/11/08, Paul Schreiber <synth1@airmail. net> wrote:
From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@airmail. net>
Subject: [motm] Carlos/Tomita/ Fast versus everything else
To: "MOTM List"
 <motm@yahoogroups. com>
Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 11:03 AM







    
            I think what Kenneth is talking about are the differences between the 

pioneering synth LPs of the past versus what is out there today.



a) in 1968 (S.O.B), the Moog modular, to most people, was on the level of 

'Star Trek'. It cost the same as *4* new Corvettes. And people back then 

still thought TV was 'magical'.



b) there was also back then a greater "appreciation of effort" for lack of a 

better term. Electronic music, up until S.O.B., was BugMusic on the highest 

order (all that tape splicing, musique concrete stuff). Then SOB rolls out, 

complete with NY Times articles about replacing musicians on Broadway, etc. 

But as to the technical tour de force required, many folks back then in the 

electronics hobbyist clan (like me) fully appreciated the work involved. 

Especially if you wandered into a music store and played with say a ARP 

Odyssey or MiniMoog for 5min. The first thought was "Holy Crap!, they could 

create those LPs from THIS??!?"



Remember, no ProTools, no super-whiz-bang plugins, no real fancy external 

effects processing.



Today, it is very difficult to find "sympathetic" people towards technology. 

iPods, cell phones, GPS? Meh....$100 at Best Buy. Nowadays, people just are 

not interested in the HOW, just the WHAT. The days when I used to read 

Popular Electronics like the Bible are over (I spent HOURS reading the 

'Build a Nixie Tube Clock' issue. To me, having an explanation how you use 

the 60Hz line frequency to then count with circuits was just the coolest 

thing in 1971 I could hope for).



The example I like to use is Toshi Doi of Sony and the CD player. (see 

http://www.eetimes. com/disruption/ profiles/ doi.jhtml) I personally think he 

is the smartest EE on the planet. When he was working on the CD player, his 

job was to figure out the physical format of the data on the disc (Philips 

part was to design the player itself). So, how long do you think he worked 

on it (the error correction, the indexing, the interleaving, etc). 1yr? 

3yrs? How about *10 years*, by *himself* all hand calculated on legal pads. 

Most people don't realize that the audio data content on a CD is about 40%, 

the other 60% is error correction and other stuff that allows horribly 

scratched CDs to play anyway. The audio you hear from a CD player was 

actually read off the disc about 400ms prior, you have to do the block 

Reed-Solomon ECC stuff before the DACs.



But CD players?...Pffttt. ...$29 at Target. Mostly now in cars. Toshi Doi? 

Who is THAT?



Sadly, I too miss the "good old days" of synth LPs (I used to collect them). 

Even the most cheesy Moog records, I bought EVERY ONE *just because*, well, 

it's Moog record! But to 'draw' the line' between a pure modular synth 

record (again, SOB) and a 'synthesizer record' (say Fast's first "Synergy") 

and then to a mostly synth CD (Robert Rich anything) is going to fall on 

deaf ears (so to speak) in today's world. With a bazillion bad YouTube 

videos, every record is sample-based and crappy MP3s on iPods played back by 

11 cent earbuds (yes, the stock Apple earbuds cost 11 cents) what do you 

expect?



I have no reservations that Kenneth could make a CD that would make SOB 

sound like it was played on a Casio. But who, besides a handful, would 

APPRECIATE it?



Paul S.

On Sep 12, 2008, at 3:19 AM, eric f wrote:

>
> Your entire argument on behalf of Ken (and if that's what he was  
> actually trying to say, he certainly should work a little harder on  
> his emails) is based around the notion that the listener should  
> fetishize how a record or song was made.
>
> That can be interesting, especially for us musiciany types, just as  
> the technique used to produce a piece of visual art might be.  It  
> can inform the appreciation, but I fail to see how it is the  
> appreciation.  If you tell me that my coffee this morning was picked  
> by a legless, one armed man on a mountainside, strapped to a goat,  
> carried bean by bean to the roaster by a trained pigeon who ate it  
> and pooped it whole into the (roasting oven?), I would put a lot of  
> attention into my coffee drinking ritual.  But if it tastes like  
> Folgers, it tastes like Folgers.
>
> Most listening, though, is just like my morning coffee ritual:  
> casual, done while occupied with other tasks, other thoughts.  It is  
> an integrated part of the listener's worldlife and only a central  
> part at moments that the listener, not the musician chooses.
>
> You can poopoo this, lamenting as you have, the decline of the  
> quality listener, but you are incredibly late to the game.  Adorno  
> was doing it in 1938 ("On the Fetish Character of Music and the  
> Regression of the Listener") and even he was quick to point out that  
> by gosh no generation hasn't said this.
>
> "I have no reservations that Kenneth could make a CD that would make  
> SOB
> sound like it was played on a Casio. But who, besides a handful, would
> APPRECIATE it?"
>
> If the man can't write a song, and I have yet to hear an Elhardt  
> piece, why would I care if it sounded nice?  It's the artist's duty  
> to seduce the listener, not the listener's duty to honor the  
> artist's stature or importance.
>
> The presence of my synth isn't going to move anyone, repulse them,  
> excite them, make them dance or cry or remember a sunny day or a  
> rainy one or send them screaming from the room; its presence won't  
> draw you into contemplation.  That's my job.  So make me more new  
> kit, Mr. Schreiber, and inspire me to find new ways to do all of this.
>
> cheers,
> eric f
>
>
> --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:
> From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
> Subject: [motm] Carlos/Tomita/Fast versus everything else
> To: "MOTM List" <motm@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 11:03 AM
>
> I think what Kenneth is talking about are the differences between the
> pioneering synth LPs of the past versus what is out there today.
>
> a) in 1968 (S.O.B), the Moog modular, to most people, was on the  
> level of
> 'Star Trek'. It cost the same as *4* new Corvettes. And people back  
> then
> still thought TV was 'magical'.
>
> b) there was also back then a greater "appreciation of effort" for  
> lack of a
> better term. Electronic music, up until S.O.B., was BugMusic on the  
> highest
> order (all that tape splicing, musique concrete stuff). Then SOB  
> rolls out,
> complete with NY Times articles about replacing musicians on  
> Broadway, etc.
> But as to the technical tour de force required, many folks back then  
> in the
> electronics hobbyist clan (like me) fully appreciated the work  
> involved.
> Especially if you wandered into a music store and played with say a  
> ARP
> Odyssey or MiniMoog for 5min. The first thought was "Holy Crap!,  
> they could
> create those LPs from THIS??!?"
>
> Remember, no ProTools, no super-whiz-bang plugins, no real fancy  
> external
> effects processing.
>
> Today, it is very difficult to find "sympathetic" people towards  
> technology.
> iPods, cell phones, GPS? Meh....$100 at Best Buy. Nowadays, people  
> just are
> not interested in the HOW, just the WHAT. The days when I used to read
> Popular Electronics like the Bible are over (I spent HOURS reading the
> 'Build a Nixie Tube Clock' issue. To me, having an explanation how  
> you use
> the 60Hz line frequency to then count with circuits was just the  
> coolest
> thing in 1971 I could hope for).
>
> The example I like to use is Toshi Doi of Sony and the CD player. (see
> http://www.eetimes. com/disruption/ profiles/ doi.jhtml) I  
> personally think he
> is the smartest EE on the planet. When he was working on the CD  
> player, his
> job was to figure out the physical format of the data on the disc  
> (Philips
> part was to design the player itself). So, how long do you think he  
> worked
> on it (the error correction, the indexing, the interleaving, etc).  
> 1yr?
> 3yrs? How about *10 years*, by *himself* all hand calculated on  
> legal pads.
> Most people don't realize that the audio data content on a CD is  
> about 40%,
> the other 60% is error correction and other stuff that allows horribly
> scratched CDs to play anyway. The audio you hear from a CD player was
> actually read off the disc about 400ms prior, you have to do the block
> Reed-Solomon ECC stuff before the DACs.
>
> But CD players?...Pffttt. ...$29 at Target. Mostly now in cars.  
> Toshi Doi?
> Who is THAT?
>
> Sadly, I too miss the "good old days" of synth LPs (I used to  
> collect them).
> Even the most cheesy Moog records, I bought EVERY ONE *just  
> because*, well,
> it's Moog record! But to 'draw' the line' between a pure modular synth
> record (again, SOB) and a 'synthesizer record' (say Fast's first  
> "Synergy")
> and then to a mostly synth CD (Robert Rich anything) is going to  
> fall on
> deaf ears (so to speak) in today's world. With a bazillion bad YouTube
> videos, every record is sample-based and crappy MP3s on iPods played  
> back by
> 11 cent earbuds (yes, the stock Apple earbuds cost 11 cents) what do  
> you
> expect?
>
> I have no reservations that Kenneth could make a CD that would make  
> SOB
> sound like it was played on a Casio. But who, besides a handful, would
> APPRECIATE it?
>
> Paul S.
>
>
>
>