MOTM

I am designing (yes, it DOES occur from time to time!) a new I/O module. This is what I'm
thinking about:

a) has 2ea MOTM level-to-balanced out (+4dbu into 2 XLRs and TRS jack)

b) High-end headphone amp with several sneaky tricks (not telling!).

c) 2ea balanced in (XLR + 1 TRS) to MOTM level (+4dBu >>10V pk-pk)

Any thoughts (no 100 segment VFD bar graphs...sorry!)

Paul S.

My recommendations:

Make the headphone amp a separate module.  An MOTM level converter is a
good general purpose tool that could see multiple uses, connecting
compressors, limiters, equalizers or digital effects in and out of your
MOTM.  I would hate to buy a headphone amp every time I needed more
converter channels.

Make the balanced TRS jacks unbalanced capable (this is probably
assumed).

I liked the idea about the combined XLR/TRS jack, especially if it
allows more converter channels per module.

Tricolor level indicators.

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com


> I am designing (yes, it DOES occur from time to time!) a new I/O
module.

> This is what I'm
> thinking about:
> 
> a) has 2ea MOTM level-to-balanced out (+4dbu into 2 XLRs and TRS jack)
> 
> b) High-end headphone amp with several sneaky tricks (not telling!).
> 
> c) 2ea balanced in (XLR + 1 TRS) to MOTM level (+4dBu >>10V pk-pk)
> 
> Any thoughts (no 100 segment VFD bar graphs...sorry!)
> 
> Paul S.
>

Signal and peak leds would be nice -> bicolor green/red per channel a) and
c).
Level controls on the balanced-ins.
Mults for the MOTM-level outs.
Headphone switch to monitor a) or c).
Headphone amp inputs jacks for L & R that override switch setting.
Two headphone jacks -> his and hers! :)
Headphone level control. ;0

So, what are the sneaky tricks???

George

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
To: "MOTM listserv" <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 9:08 PM
Subject: [motm] Asking for input: I/O Module


> I am designing (yes, it DOES occur from time to time!) a new I/O module.
This is what I'm

> thinking about:
>
> a) has 2ea MOTM level-to-balanced out (+4dbu into 2 XLRs and TRS jack)
>
> b) High-end headphone amp with several sneaky tricks (not telling!).
>
> c) 2ea balanced in (XLR + 1 TRS) to MOTM level (+4dBu >>10V pk-pk)
>
> Any thoughts (no 100 segment VFD bar graphs...sorry!)
>
> Paul S.

a) These I/O modules *do not* replace the Triple Pre-Amp (1U) modules. Which, BTW, I ordered
prototype parts for today :)

b) I am leaning towards 3 modules:

#1: Mic In, Phono In, Headphone Out
#2 Input module
#3 Output Module

Crazy talk??!?

Paul S.

What exactly is a "phono in"?  (Well, I know what a phono plug is, but
I'm not certain of the purpose-- instrument?)

I would stick the Headphone out on the output module.  With the leftover
space on the mic/phono in (which I assume is the triple pre-amp),
perhaps you could have the envelope follower?  And stick an EF on the
input module too.  :)

--PBr

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...] 
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 8:11 PM
To: groovyshaman@...; MOTM listserv
Subject: Re: [motm] Asking for input: I/O Module


a) These I/O modules *do not* replace the Triple Pre-Amp (1U) modules.
Which, BTW, I ordered prototype parts for today :)

b) I am leaning towards 3 modules:

#1: Mic In, Phono In, Headphone Out
#2 Input module
#3 Output Module

Crazy talk??!?

Paul S.



 

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On Thursday, August 21, 2003, at 8:11 PM, Paul Schreiber wrote:

> a) These I/O modules *do not* replace the Triple Pre-Amp (1U) modules. 
> Which, BTW, I ordered
> prototype parts for today :)
>
> b) I am leaning towards 3 modules:
>
> #1: Mic In, Phono In, Headphone Out

Phono/Mic pre, great for direct connection of turntable and the like. 
Phantom power/phase inversion and all that would be swell. This is 
something of a rather specialized module. I personally already have 
this functionality in other pieces of equipment, though I will admit 
it's rather obnoxious to have to snake cable around the studio to get 
everyone talking. Might be nice to have one built in.

Maybe a Mic + Vocoder module?

> #2 Input module

This begs the question, from what? I can already drop line level 
anywhere in the signal path. Why would I want to chew up another slot 
for a pair of jacks in format X/Y/Z? I can think of one type of source 
where I *can't* drop a signal in: digital. Sure would be sweat to be 
able to patch in digital equipment with out going through @#$% 
expensive converters half way across the studio. Stereo 192Khz 
converters are cheap these days. I'll just go out on a limb here and 
bet that you could probably design a pretty nice one. But seriously, 
don't do this.

This only makes sense if there is some other functionality besides nice 
jacks that gets an often used piece of ancillary equipment closer to 
front panel. An envelope follower would be sweat, but that's not really 
"input" per se, that's an envelope follower ^_^

Maybe you could wedge a mini scope display into it? Or some analog 
meters? ^_^

> #3 Output Module

A channel strip would be sweet. Basic Comp/Lim/Eq. Something to do some 
signal conditioning before heading out.  This is an area where a stereo 
chorus or delay are traditional placed as well. I really like the 
stereo chorus on my juno...

> Crazy talk??!?

See comment about digital converters.

--mikes

(channeling H. J. Simpson) Ooooo - Input modules

Wants:
How about settable gain and high and low freq roll-off (I'm thinking
some of the old science lab instrumentation amps).
Phantom power - this is not a full mic pre but it would be nice to run a
phantom powered pickup.

Wishes:
Jumper settable aux power out for any wall-wart powered devices -
5-9-12-15 VAC/VDC
Running an RNC on an input would be nice and nicer if I didn't have to
make room for the wart

'Ya know...  If you are splitting the functions into three modules, the
Input module circuitry would be somewhat simple (ie, not as complex as
an oscillator) and there might be room on the board for some prototype
board space.

Also, leave some holes drilled - if the buyer doesn't use them, they can
be wired up as mults.

Oooooo - mults




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...] 
> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 8:11 PM
> To: groovyshaman@...; MOTM listserv
> Subject: Re: [motm] Asking for input: I/O Module
> 
> 
> a) These I/O modules *do not* replace the Triple Pre-Amp (1U) 
> modules. Which, BTW, I ordered prototype parts for today :)
> 
> b) I am leaning towards 3 modules:
> 
> #1: Mic In, Phono In, Headphone Out
> #2 Input module
> #3 Output Module
> 
> Crazy talk??!?
> 
> Paul S.
> 
> 
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> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
> a) These I/O modules *do not* replace the Triple Pre-Amp (1U) modules.
Which, BTW, I ordered prototype parts for today :)

> b) I am leaning towards 3 modules:
Crazy talk??!?

YES.  That is nuts in my book -- a preamp and 3 other modules for I/0.
Sorry, I cannot see 4 or more U of space in my system for just I/O.  How
about just 2 modules.  One is a input / preamp module one is the output
module.

> a new I/O module. This is what I'm thinking about:
> a) has 2ea MOTM level-to-balanced out (+4dbu into 2 XLRs and TRS jack)

I like that on the output module. I do like the idea of the combo XLR / TRS
jacks for saving panels space. Then, if you wanted you could also provide an
unbalanced output with the 1/4 only jack.

> b) High-end headphone amp with several sneaky tricks (not telling!).

I can see that on the output module.   The other thing that would be cool on
the output module in my opinion is an effects loop (send and receive jacks)
that assume the effects will be an unbalanced line level.

> c) 2ea balanced in (XLR + 1 TRS) to MOTM level (+4dBu >>10V pk-pk)

Why?  I can see one channel of the preamp with a balanced and unbalanced
input (switchable line/mic level).    Maybe the second channel is the same.
Channel # 3 is for guitar / instrument / phono level inputs.  Would that not
all be in the range of one control to adjust  What other input do you need
to make the input module separate from the preamp module?

> Any thoughts (no 100 segment VFD bar graphs...sorry!)

Ok.  But, I do like the idea of a single bi-color LED green for signal / red
for peak.

Larry

I'm a little confused about the difference between the triple preamp and the
input module besides XLR jacks.  Is the preamp for high-impedance inputs
like guitars?  Personally, my ideal IO module has three channels I can
switch between line>>motm and motm>>line in 1U, and just 1/4" jacks, but I
haven't left room for peak LEDs. Though it's quite possible I'd want more
channels than that, and then an input module plus an output module is
alright.

I sort of like keeping the mic, phono, and headphone in a seperate module...
many of us are going to have mixers that perform these functions already -
though I'm sure with more noise and THD than Paul would provide. ;-)  By
phono you mean with RIAA equalization and everything?

I'm not a fan of bicolor LEDs: I'm partly color-blind and I can't tell red
from green at a glance, I really have to look at it for a second to see
which it is. And my color-blindness isn't all that bad, some guys are a lot
worse than me (this affects 10% of men, and yes, I check every resistor with
a meter!)  Design for accessibility, and all that... a two or three-segment
indicator, on the other hand, is a perfectly fine thing.  (Though if push
comes to shove, I can always replace a bicolor with a single color LED and
just get the peaks.)

Any thought of supporting (even through jumpers or component value
change) -10dBv consumer levels?  I know its lame to play samples back with a
computer sound card, but I spent my allowance on modules...

                        ...Craig

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J. Larry Hendry" <jlarryh@...>
To: "MOTM List" <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: [motm] Asking for input: I/O Module


> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
> > a) These I/O modules *do not* replace the Triple Pre-Amp (1U) modules.
> Which, BTW, I ordered prototype parts for today :)
>
> > b) I am leaning towards 3 modules:
> Crazy talk??!?
>
> YES.  That is nuts in my book -- a preamp and 3 other modules for I/0.
> Sorry, I cannot see 4 or more U of space in my system for just I/O.  How
> about just 2 modules.  One is a input / preamp module one is the output
> module.
>
> > a new I/O module. This is what I'm thinking about:
> > a) has 2ea MOTM level-to-balanced out (+4dbu into 2 XLRs and TRS jack)
>
> I like that on the output module. I do like the idea of the combo XLR /
TRS
> jacks for saving panels space. Then, if you wanted you could also provide
an
> unbalanced output with the 1/4 only jack.
>
> > b) High-end headphone amp with several sneaky tricks (not telling!).
>
> I can see that on the output module.   The other thing that would be cool
on
> the output module in my opinion is an effects loop (send and receive
jacks)
> that assume the effects will be an unbalanced line level.
>
> > c) 2ea balanced in (XLR + 1 TRS) to MOTM level (+4dBu >>10V pk-pk)
>
> Why?  I can see one channel of the preamp with a balanced and unbalanced
> input (switchable line/mic level).    Maybe the second channel is the
same.
> Channel # 3 is for guitar / instrument / phono level inputs.  Would that
not
> all be in the range of one control to adjust  What other input do you need
> to make the input module separate from the preamp module?
>
> > Any thoughts (no 100 segment VFD bar graphs...sorry!)
>
> Ok.  But, I do like the idea of a single bi-color LED green for signal /
red

> for peak.
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

> b) I am leaning towards 3 modules:
> 
> #1: Mic In, Phono In, Headphone Out
> #2 Input module
> #3 Output Module
> 
> Crazy talk??!?

Well, I don't know about what other people need or would find useful,
but I have all the I/O and preamps I need in the form of non-MOTM
hardware.

My vote would be for you to spend your time on stuff I *can't* get
anywhere else:

1) Interpolating Scanner
2) Crossfade/Panning
3) Interpolating Scanner again :-)


Harry

hello all,
so here are my likes and dislikes:

like the idea of two headphone jack (sharing the same level control)
like the idea of screw terminals on the pcb for 'tidy' outputs
like the idea of a single mult on the input module,
dislike the idea of a phono input - is this really necessary..?

so there you go - just my humble thoughts...
i'd also toy with the idea of having the xlr output connectors on an
expander panel as an optional extra - this will take up far less room in an
spacially challenged system
by the way, aren't the neutrik combi xlr/jacks the wrong sex for an output
module..?

cheers
paul b
sheffield
uk


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Loffink" <jloffink@...>
To: "'Paul Schreiber'" <synth1@...>; "'MOTM listserv'"
<motm@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 3:22 AM
Subject: RE: [motm] Asking for input: I/O Module


> My recommendations:
>
> Make the headphone amp a separate module.  An MOTM level converter is a
> good general purpose tool that could see multiple uses, connecting
> compressors, limiters, equalizers or digital effects in and out of your
> MOTM.  I would hate to buy a headphone amp every time I needed more
> converter channels.
>
> Make the balanced TRS jacks unbalanced capable (this is probably
> assumed).
>
> I liked the idea about the combined XLR/TRS jack, especially if it
> allows more converter channels per module.
>
> Tricolor level indicators.
>
> John Loffink
> The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
> http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
> The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
> http://www.wavemakers-synth.com
>
>
> > I am designing (yes, it DOES occur from time to time!) a new I/O
> module.
> > This is what I'm
> > thinking about:
> >
> > a) has 2ea MOTM level-to-balanced out (+4dbu into 2 XLRs and TRS jack)
> >
> > b) High-end headphone amp with several sneaky tricks (not telling!).
> >
> > c) 2ea balanced in (XLR + 1 TRS) to MOTM level (+4dBu >>10V pk-pk)
> >
> > Any thoughts (no 100 segment VFD bar graphs...sorry!)
> >
> > Paul S.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

I would like the inputs and outputs to be switchable between +4 pro 
levels, -10 consumer levels, and -20? instrument levels.

There are a lot of -10 consumer effects and -20? guitar effects that 
I would like to patch in as well as the +4 pro gear.

Attenuation on input and output to give better matching of signal 
levels into and out of various equipment.


Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA

Great idea.  I would like #2 and #3 in the MOTM rack but already have plenty of #1 in my mixers.

Input and output could be one combined or two separate modules.  I basically just need a two-in/two-out interface between MOTM signal levels and typical pro-audio equipment levels (+4 dBu).

Ivan

> 
> #1: Mic In, Phono In, Headphone Out
> #2 Input module
> #3 Output Module

> Great idea.  I would like #2 and #3 in the MOTM rack but already have plenty of #1 in my
mixers.

But I done *want* to have to use a mixer, if all I want is to send balanced MOTM outs to my
Eventide DSP 7000, and back into the synth.

>
> Input and output could be one combined or two separate modules.  I basically just need a
two-in/two-out interface between MOTM signal levels and typical pro-audio equipment levels (+4
dBu).

The idea is to separate the IN from the OUT, so that you can get exactly of how many makes sense
in YOUR particular studio.

Paul S.

> My vote would be for you to spend your time on stuff I *can't* get
> anywhere else:
>
> 1) Interpolating Scanner
> 2) Crossfade/Panning
> 3) Interpolating Scanner again :-)

Amen!

And don't forget:
6) Interpolating Scanner

So pardon if some of these abservations fall under 'how dense is this 
guy':

* So I can connect the final output(s) of a patch to this device and 
get balanced (TRS or XLR) for each of the inputs, right?  If I've set 
up a patch, for example, that pans left and right, you would preserve 
the 'stereo' out?  If so, what about feeding the IO module 4 outputs 
from a patch (I do this all the time with the 410)?

* Some level indicator is required, I think.  At a minimum a clip LED 
for each channel (I'm not sure if it's better on input or output).

* Will there be gain controls for the outputs?

* The Neutrik connectors have both XLR and TRS in one jack.  You 
could use these to save space on the panel (and add outputs!).

* Overkill: MOTM quality analog to digital stereo output (AES/EBU and 
SPDIF) :) :) :)

Mike


--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@a...> wrote:
> I am designing (yes, it DOES occur from time to time!) a new I/O 
module. This is what I'm
> thinking about:
> 
> a) has 2ea MOTM level-to-balanced out (+4dbu into 2 XLRs and TRS 
jack)

> 
> b) High-end headphone amp with several sneaky tricks (not telling!).
> 
> c) 2ea balanced in (XLR + 1 TRS) to MOTM level (+4dBu >>10V pk-pk)
> 
> Any thoughts (no 100 segment VFD bar graphs...sorry!)
> 
> Paul S.

On 8/21/03, J. Larry Hendry put forth:
>  > ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
>>  a) These I/O modules *do not* replace the Triple Pre-Amp (1U) modules.
>Which, BTW, I ordered prototype parts for today :)
>
>>  b) I am leaning towards 3 modules:
>Crazy talk??!?
>
>YES.  That is nuts in my book -- a preamp and 3 other modules for I/0.
>Sorry, I cannot see 4 or more U of space in my system for just I/O.  How
>about just 2 modules.  One is a input / preamp module one is the output
>module.

I agree with Larry that adding three more modules would be insane.  I 
think even adding one more I/O module is a bad idea.  There are 
already hundreds, if not thousands, of products on the market that do 
those things.  While I'm quite sure that Paul's designs will be far 
better than most, there is nothing stopping anyone from using a 
Manley or an Avalon with their MOTM.

I have never had any problem interfacing MOTM with outboard gear. 
That's one of the reasons I chose MOTM, so I wouldn't need I/O 
modules (as with a banana jack system).  By marketing such modules, 
it might give potential customers the wrong impression that they are 
necessary.

Imho, the Envelope Follower and Triple Preamp, as well as a dozen 
other backlogged designs, should be completed first.


On 8/22/03, Paul Schreiber put forth:
>
>OK, I'm punting my nice phono preamp :(
>It was a thing of beauty (sob......sniff)

Sheeesh!!  That's the only idea I liked :)  One less box taking up 
space.  Want to send me the schematics??  Someday next year, I might 
have time to build it.

I haven't posted this to any other list.

I have an EML 100 -- the rare, blue, predecessor of the EML 101. 
Afaik, there were fewer than 300 made.

It needs work, but I don't have the time to fix it.  I also need 
space.  So I want to trade it for something small.  Modules that 
would fit my MOTM system would be perfect, which is why I posted this 
here.

Sorry, U.S. traders only.

THANX!!  :)

But I only need MONO (in and out)!  ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 9:05 AM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com; ivancu@...
Subject: Re: [motm] Asking for input: I/O Module


> Input and output could be one combined or two separate modules.  I basically just need a
two-in/two-out interface between MOTM signal levels and typical pro-audio equipment levels (+4
dBu).

The idea is to separate the IN from the OUT, so that you can get exactly of how many makes sense
in YOUR particular studio.

Thought about it some more, and my current "need" is...

a 1U module with 
1) one (switching) (un)balanced 1/4" in
2) one (switching) (un)balanced 1/4" out
3) some trim controls
4) a switch to control whether the input is pulled up from line level, instrument, or mic, 
5) a switch for phantom power 
6) a switch for hiZ/loZ
7) and a decent level meter (both ways)

OK, that's not going to fit well in 1U, so you can skip the mic-related controls to make room for level meters.  Throw that stuff on your triple-preamp.

It's basic, but what more do you (er, I) need?

> > My vote would be for you to spend your time on stuff I *can't* get
> > anywhere else:
> > 
> > 1) Interpolating Scanner
> > 2) Crossfade/Panning
> > 3) Interpolating Scanner again :-)
> > 
> > 
> > Harry
> 

 If my vote counts: Interpolating Scanner again....
if not, anyone for making a batch of PCBs???

Josue.

> 
>  If my vote counts: Interpolating Scanner again....
> if not, anyone for making a batch of PCBs???

Again...Interpolating Scanner is *done*, will show at NAMM.

Paul S.

GOOD NEWS!!

:)
----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
To: "Josue Arias" <josue@...>; <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [motm] Re: Asking for input: I/O Module


> > 
> >  If my vote counts: Interpolating Scanner again....
> > if not, anyone for making a batch of PCBs???
> 
> Again...Interpolating Scanner is *done*, will show at NAMM.
> 
> Paul S.
>

'allo--

>>  If my vote counts: Interpolating Scanner again....
>> if not, anyone for making a batch of PCBs???
>
>Again...Interpolating Scanner is *done*, will show at NAMM.
>
>Paul S.
>

That's great to hear! I'd buy one of *those*!  :-)

Best wishes from toasty Baltimore,
Frank

> But I done *want* to have to use a mixer, if all I want is to send
> balanced MOTM outs to my
> Eventide DSP 7000, and back into the synth.

:-( After paying for my MOTM I don't have money for an Eventide.

> The idea is to separate the IN from the OUT, so that you can get
exactly
> of how many makes sense
> in YOUR particular studio.

I agree with this entirely.  Many MOTMers seem to assume that only one
device will be hooked into the modular, while I feel there are many
potential candidates: digital reverbs and multieffects, graphic
equalizers, parametric equalizers, compressor/limiters, etc.  

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com

>
>I agree with this entirely.  Many MOTMers seem to assume that only one
>device will be hooked into the modular, while I feel there are many
>potential candidates: digital reverbs and multieffects, graphic
>equalizers, parametric equalizers, compressor/limiters, etc.

Am I missing something here??  You can do all of that now.  I've 
already done all of that myself.  MOTM system is 100% compatible with 
unbalanced line-level.

The levels are fine -- 10Vpp is 13dB.  Several of the modules can 
handle even hotter signals than that (the 700 can handle over 
20dB!!).  Regardless, all of the devices you listed have level 
controls of their own for input and output.

The typical impedances for MOTM, 1K output and 50K input, are also 
the same as line level.  One exception is the 820 (which is designed 
for DC, and has its own special output circuitry), but if you plugged 
it into an MOTM I/O module you would still be connecting to a device 
with the same impedances as line-level.

The connectors are 1/4" TS, which is the most common way to connect 
unbalanced line-level.  Even the MOTM power supply (30Vpp) is the 
same as the vast majority of studio gear (and I presume the I/O 
modules would run off the same rails).

Yes, MOTM does not have balanced connectors.  No modulars do.  Nor 
should they.  Look at GML or Demeter or Charles Stella -- balanced 
connectors are an option, as balancing adds noise.  Balanced cables 
are only beneficial for low level signals and long cable runs.  It's 
not necessary when using 10Vpp signals in a studio environment.

Nor have I had any problems with line hum or ground loops.  MOTM is 
very well grounded and shielded -- better than any other synth. 
You'll notice that each module has two ground wires, and the boards 
are designed so that the jack connectors are on the opposite side of 
the board as the power connector.  It's a beautiful low-noise design.

If you needed to run a balanced cable, or amplify or attenuate the 
signal, there are hundreds of preamps, reamps, mixers, match boxes, 
direct boxes, front ends, transformer adapters, etc. already 
available.  Using an external device for balancing or gain wouldn't 
be any different than using an MOTM module.

Paul is a brilliant designer, but he has limited time and resources 
to develop, produce, and ship modules.  The current backlog is 
already filled with modules that do things that are not available 
from anyone else.  Finishing those first would be what is best for 
the system.

There has been much discussion over what different people want in 
various I/O modules.  The possible configurations are endless.  This 
is hardly surprising, as it depends entirely on what other gear each 
person is using.  The circuits needed are fairly basic, and their 
quality depends largely on how much money one wants to spend.  So if 
someone, for whatever reason, needed a mic pre or headphone amp in 
MOTM format, they could easily build their own.