MOTM

http://www.synthtech.com/demo/rm_comp.mp3


Here are the notes of the demo from Robert Rich. There is some loss of detail in the MP3, but in
general the '190 RM is "silky-er" than the '110. The '190 VCA modes are much better than the '110
in terms of dynamic range, lower noise and more "punch".

Shipments of the '190 will start around Sept. 21st.

Paul S.

>
> 2 sine waves from 440, with a tiny bit of vibrato for interest, controlled
> by two UEGs cycling through different 8 step sequences. These are either
> passing through a 110 ring mod or a 190 ring mod, then into the 190 VCA#2
> for final enveloping. No filters, no processing.
>
> 1) 4 bars of 8 notes simple ring mod through 110 (X&Y at full, Unbal at zero)
>
> 2) 4 bars of 8 notes simple ring mod through 190 R mode (blend knob full right)
>
> 3) 4 bars of 8 notes through 110 (slowly turning Unbalance up)
>
> 4) 4 bars of 8 notes simple ring mod through 190 R mode (turning Blend up &
> down)
>
> 5) 4 bars of 8 notes simple ring mod through 190 V mode (turning Blend up &
> down)
>
> You'll notice the clean sounds are VERY subtly different, the modified
> sounds are very different. Those who like more thick and grungy ring mod
> will definitely want to keep their 110, but the 190 is smoother and retains
> the sinusoidal characteristics better.

Interesting comparison.  The 110 sounds brighter, like there are some
harmonics in the resultant waveform.  I'm guessing this may be some form of
distortion being introduced, or possibly some small amount of signal
unbalance.  (On one of my 110s, I cannot adjust the unbalance control to a
setting that totally removes the unbalance effect.)  The 190 on the other
hand does sound more "smooth" (as if the sidebands are more sine shaped,
less distortion?) and the sounds the blend control creates are awesome.  Is
this the CS-80 RM effect?  As for more "punch", I'm curious, how does one
discern this?

George

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
To: MOTM listserv <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 1:44 AM
Subject: [motm] MOTM-190 vs.'110 RM demo


> http://www.synthtech.com/demo/rm_comp.mp3
>
>
> Here are the notes of the demo from Robert Rich. There is some loss of
detail in the MP3, but in
> general the '190 RM is "silky-er" than the '110. The '190 VCA modes are
much better than the '110
> in terms of dynamic range, lower noise and more "punch".
>
> Shipments of the '190 will start around Sept. 21st.
>
> Paul S.
>
> >
> > 2 sine waves from 440, with a tiny bit of vibrato for interest,
controlled
> > by two UEGs cycling through different 8 step sequences. These are either
> > passing through a 110 ring mod or a 190 ring mod, then into the 190
VCA#2
> > for final enveloping. No filters, no processing.
> >
> > 1) 4 bars of 8 notes simple ring mod through 110 (X&Y at full, Unbal at
zero)
> >
> > 2) 4 bars of 8 notes simple ring mod through 190 R mode (blend knob full
right)
> >
> > 3) 4 bars of 8 notes through 110 (slowly turning Unbalance up)
> >
> > 4) 4 bars of 8 notes simple ring mod through 190 R mode (turning Blend
up &
> > down)
> >
> > 5) 4 bars of 8 notes simple ring mod through 190 V mode (turning Blend
up &
> > down)
> >
> > You'll notice the clean sounds are VERY subtly different, the modified
> > sounds are very different. Those who like more thick and grungy ring mod
> > will definitely want to keep their 110, but the 190 is smoother and
retains
> > the sinusoidal characteristics better.

a) The '110 distorts more than the '190, so it's has more "grunge". Also, the carrier rejection
of the '190 is about twice that of the '110, which is also audible.

b) More 'punch'? Whack it with a fast EG when the audio is less than 200Hz. You'll hear the
difference :)

Paul S.

I am thinking about building a cabinet (or separate cabinets) for 4 X 
19"rack rows of MOTM size modules.

I would like to have AC power connected to the rear of the cabinet, 
with the power switch on the front. Is this possible?

Does everyone mount the MOTM power supply on the rear panel? I don't 
like the idea of a rear mounted power switch, or the power cable 
connected to the front.

Should I use the Synthesizers.com power system, which provides 
separate panels for AC input and power switch, and then has separate 
power supply. Will this work with the MOTM modules?

Will the synthesizers.com power panel fit neatly onto the MOTM 19" 
rack rails along with the MOTM modules.

Are there other options for cabinet power?

How close can/should modules be mounted to the power supply? Are 
there interference/noise problems if they are too close?

Are there heat problems with the power supply mounted inside the 
cabinet, or with modules that are next to the power supply?


Thanks,
Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA

A VCA with exponential response has a different volume response than 
one with linear response. The 'tail' of the sound falls away faster 
with short decay envelopes. If you set up a fast attack, fast release 
envelope, it has more smack or impact on an exponential VCA. Perfect 
for drum sounds.

Moe

>>>>
As for more "punch", I'm curious, how does one discern this?
<<<<

I have one cabinet like you describe and one with 2 x 19".  Each 
cabinet has a 900 mounted on the back right of the cabinet and a 
power distribution board in the back middle.  The power switch is 
behind the cabinet, obviously, since it's attached to the 900.  
However, I have both power cords going to a single power strip with 
an On/Off button that is located for convenient switching.  This 
setup works pretty well!

Mike

--- In motm@y..., Simon <simon@a...> wrote:
> I am thinking about building a cabinet (or separate cabinets) for 
4 X 
> 19"rack rows of MOTM size modules.
> 
> I would like to have AC power connected to the rear of the 
cabinet, 
> with the power switch on the front. Is this possible?
> 
> Does everyone mount the MOTM power supply on the rear panel? I 
don't 
> like the idea of a rear mounted power switch, or the power cable 
> connected to the front.
> 
> Should I use the Synthesizers.com power system, which provides 
> separate panels for AC input and power switch, and then has 
separate 

> power supply. Will this work with the MOTM modules?
> 
> Will the synthesizers.com power panel fit neatly onto the MOTM 19" 
> rack rails along with the MOTM modules.
> 
> Are there other options for cabinet power?
> 
> How close can/should modules be mounted to the power supply? Are 
> there interference/noise problems if they are too close?
> 
> Are there heat problems with the power supply mounted inside the 
> cabinet, or with modules that are next to the power supply?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Simon
> Canberra
> AUSTRALIA

----- Original Message -----

From: Simon <simon@...>
> I would like to have AC power connected to the rear of the cabinet,
> with the power switch on the front. Is this possible?

hello all
actually, if stooge industries carry on, i'd very much like them to address
this along with 'official' mods to the existing 900psu to incorporate a 1U
front panel switch

or did we go over this before..?

cheers
paul b

This is NOT a good idea, due to safety reasons.

Paul S.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: <vulture.squadron@...>
To: "MOTM List" <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [motm] Cabinet Power - How To Do It?


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Simon <simon@...>
> > I would like to have AC power connected to the rear of the cabinet,
> > with the power switch on the front. Is this possible?
> 
> hello all
> actually, if stooge industries carry on, i'd very much like them to address
> this along with 'official' mods to the existing 900psu to incorporate a 1U
> front panel switch
> 
> or did we go over this before..?
> 
> cheers
> paul b
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
>

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Simon <simon@...>
> I would like to have AC power connected to the
> rear of the cabinet,  with the power switch on the front.
>  Is this possible?

Sure it is possible.  Many people that are building cabinets are mounting
power supplies inside the cabinets with remote AC switches.  I am doing
that.  The issue becomes that you have a whole new level of standards you
need to be careful of when installing AC wiring in your cabinet.  It is bad
enough in the US with 120 volts.  But, outside the USA, many of you may be
dealing with something around 230-240 volts.  Trust me, that is killer
stuff.  In my day job and am a high volage specialist and work around
voltages up to 765,000 volts.  Yet, even I have a healthy respoect for 120 /
240.

 I don't have a 900, so I cannot specifically answer that question.  But,
since the fuse is on the rear panel, any remote wiring to an AC switch would
be protected by the fuse.  So, it sound "possible."   If I were doing it
(and I offer this as a casual observation, not advice), I would select a
front panel switch with large terminal connectors, not something small like
the standatrd MOTM toggle.  Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I imagine
the 900 PC switch has push on terminals on the back.  Terminals that mate to
those are also sold.  One could construct a new switch with 2 wires running
to the 900 PS with these terminal connections on the end.  The unplug the
900 switch and connect the new in its place.  I would use heat shrink over
te connections.  I would watch the switch AC rating and the wire AC rating.

Disclaimers:
- I have never had a 900 in my hands.  My assumptions may be incorrect.
- As a professional, I never will officially give advice on AC wiring to a
non-professional electrician. This is NOT advice.
- If you have to ask how to wire a SPST AC switch, you probably should not.

> Should I use the Synthesizers.com power system,

No.  I think what they do for wiring power supplies is (less than what I
would do).  I can only say that because I have had the DC side of that in my
hands.  However, I do know one MOTMer who is apparently doing that.  Without
saying anything is wrong with it (out of respect for Roger's opinion of good
enough), I would not.  But, I am somewhat anal on the subject.

> Will the synthesizers.com power panel fit neatly onto the MOTM 19"  rack
rails along with the MOTM modules.

No.  The are wider and have different mounting holes.

> Are there other options for cabinet power?

Yes, you can buy a separate power supply from almost anywhere and use Paul's
960 power supply distribution boards.  That is what I did.  But, you are
stuck with all the AC wiring, switch, fuse and making sure you do everything
right.  Can it be done?  Sure.  Are you qualified?  (You insert answer here)
Can you have a qualified person do it at your end?  Probably.  Take a look
at my recent cabinet page power supply wiring.  All my terminals and wiring
are utility grade rated for 600 volts or more.
http://www.wiseguysynth.com/larry/cabinet/cabinet4.htm

They are only photos.  I thought about a diagram.  But, that could put me in
a bad spot liability wise since I am a professional electrician.  When you
give advice in your field of expertise, you are usually liable in the good
old USA.

> How close can/should modules be mounted to the power supply? Are there
interference/noise problems if they are too close?

Apparently as close as the racked up 900 sits is OK.

> Are there heat problems with the power supply mounted inside the cabinet,
or with modules that are next to the power supply?

I was careful not to put anything right next to the PS.  But, I think heat
will not be a huge issue, especially if you follow recommendations not to
load your PS over 80% of nameplate rating.  You can "roughly" calculate the
heat by just looking at losses between power in and power out and assuming
everything in between is lost into heat.

PWR out = (+15 * I ) + (-15 * I )
PWR in = (AC voltage * I ) how much is that I ?  Check the power supply spec
for fusing.  Something less than that.  So, if you figure the worst case,
full load out, with fuse rating in, you will error on the side of extra
power disappated.  It does not look like too much to me inside a large case
like mine.  But, it could be.  I guess I will see, and add a small, quiet
exaust fan if needed.

Stooge Larry

If this crappy email makes it to the list, do not open it either.

--Shemp

From looking at the diagrams on the sythesizers.com website...
http://www.synthesizers.com/power.html

I assumed that the system worked without running mains AC to the front panel.

It looks like mains AC runs through the Q102 AC Interface Module on 
the rear of the cabinet to the power supply, and that mains AC is not 
used for the connection to the Q101 Power Control Module on the front 
panel.

Am I wrong in thinking this? Does this system run mains AC from the 
rear panel to the front panel switch and then to the power supply?

Thanks,
Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA

>  > Should I use the Synthesizers.com power system,

>No.  I think what they do for wiring power supplies is (less than what I
>would do).  I can only say that because I have had the DC side of that in my
>hands.  However, I do know one MOTMer who is apparently doing that.  Without
>saying anything is wrong with it (out of respect for Roger's opinion of good
>enough), I would not.  But, I am somewhat anal on the subject.

I haven't seen the original post either.
In general, you have several options:

(1) Bring 240V wires to a front panel switch. Be sure
      you know what you are doing - all the usual safety
      aspects, insulation, mechanical construction,
      a concept to avoid shock if a "hot" wire breaks loose,
      all that stuff.

(2) Switch the +/-15V on the fron panel, and leave the
      240V stuff at the rear.

(3) A mechanical connection from the front panel to a
      switch in the rear. That's what you find many consumer
      products. Difficult in mechanical design, but when
      once designed, cheap and save. Good for mass production.

I'm using an entirely different method: I run all my stuff over
one, central power switch. That's what I normally use to
switch the studio on and off. (And in the rare case when I have
to disable a single instrument, I crawl behind the rack, unplug
wallwarts - whatever is required.)

JH.



-----Urspr\ufffdngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Simon <simon@...>
An: <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Gesendet: Samstag, 31. August 2002 11:29
Betreff: Re: [motm] Cabinet Power - How To Do It?


> From looking at the diagrams on the sythesizers.com website...
> http://www.synthesizers.com/power.html
>
> I assumed that the system worked without running mains AC to the front
panel.
>
> It looks like mains AC runs through the Q102 AC Interface Module on
> the rear of the cabinet to the power supply, and that mains AC is not
> used for the connection to the Q101 Power Control Module on the front
> panel.
>
> Am I wrong in thinking this? Does this system run mains AC from the
> rear panel to the front panel switch and then to the power supply?
>
> Thanks,
> Simon
> Canberra
> AUSTRALIA
>
>
> >  > Should I use the Synthesizers.com power system,
>
> >No.  I think what they do for wiring power supplies is (less than what I
> >would do).  I can only say that because I have had the DC side of that in
my
> >hands.  However, I do know one MOTMer who is apparently doing that.
Without
> >saying anything is wrong with it (out of respect for Roger's opinion of
good

> >enough), I would not.  But, I am somewhat anal on the subject.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Would it be possible to have a remotely operated relay on the AC 
input, after the rear panel power switch, inside a power supply like 
the MOTM-900? The relay would be controlled by a switch on the front 
panel, so that the wiring from the power supply to the front panel 
carries no power.

I really would like a front panel power switch and power status leds, 
with the AC input on the rear.

Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA

>This is NOT a good idea, due to safety reasons.
>
>Paul S.

>----- Original Message -----
>From: <vulture.squadron@...>
>To: "MOTM List" <motm@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 1:32 PM
>Subject: Re: [motm] Cabinet Power - How To Do It?
>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: Simon <simon@...>
>>  > I would like to have AC power connected to the rear of the cabinet,
>>  > with the power switch on the front. Is this possible?
>>
>>  hello all
>>  actually, if stooge industries carry on, i'd very much like them to address
>>  this along with 'official' mods to the existing 900psu to incorporate a 1U
>>  front panel switch
>>
>>  or did we go over this before..?
>>
>>  cheers
>  > paul b

Synthesizers.com does run mains AC from the rear panel to the front
panel, according to my documentation.
John Loffink
jloffink@... 

-----Original Message-----
From: Simon [mailto:simon@...] 
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 4:29 AM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [motm] Cabinet Power - How To Do It?
 
From looking at the diagrams on the sythesizers.com website...
http://www.synthesizers.com/power.html

I assumed that the system worked without running mains AC to the front
panel.

It looks like mains AC runs through the Q102 AC Interface Module on 
the rear of the cabinet to the power supply, and that mains AC is not 
used for the connection to the Q101 Power Control Module on the front 
panel.

Am I wrong in thinking this? Does this system run mains AC from the 
rear panel to the front panel switch and then to the power supply?

Thanks,
Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA

Hmmm, if your AC is off, what voltage can you operate the relay from?
It sounds like a Catch 22 to me.  You would need some sort of standby
power, which this class of linear power supplies don't provide.  
John Loffink
jloffink@... 

-----Original Message-----
From: Simon [mailto:simon@...] 
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 8:44 AM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [motm] Cabinet Power - How To Do It?
 
Would it be possible to have a remotely operated relay on the AC 
input, after the rear panel power switch, inside a power supply like 
the MOTM-900? The relay would be controlled by a switch on the front 
panel, so that the wiring from the power supply to the front panel 
carries no power.

I really would like a front panel power switch and power status leds, 
with the AC input on the rear.

Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA

>Well, the problem is where are you going to get your low voltage to operated
>the relay?  With the power supply off, you have no low voltage source to
>pick up the relay.  I suppose you could do something with a rechargeable
>battery that gets charged when then PS in turned on.
>
>You could put in a separate low voltage wall wart that was always on to
>provide your low voltage power for your relay circuit.


I don't like the idea of using a second walwart supply/cable to power 
the relay...

...Maybe (if they exist, I don't know if they do) a relay that runs 
on mains AC, that has a separate non powered circuit to switch the 
relay. Then it could use the same mains AC that is going through the 
relay to operate it.

...Battery, rechargeable or not, is a workable solution, not ideal though.

...Very small second internal power supply wired up after the rear 
panel power switch, but before the relay so it would always be turned 
on.

...Have the front panel switch turn the DC power on and off before it 
is distributed to the modules, but then the power supply would be on 
all the time.


I'm concerned with these last two examples about having the power 
supplies running all the time.

I could have a Stooge panel made for the power switch, with battery 
holder if need be for a battery, and status leds for AC power before 
and after the relay, for the battery level, as well as status leds 
for each DC power rail.


Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA

Well, the problem is where are you going to get your low voltage to operated
the relay?  With the power supply off, you have no low voltage source to
pick up the relay.  I suppose you could do something with a rechargeable
battery that gets charged when then PS in turned on.

You could put in a separate low voltage wall wart that was always on to
provide your low voltage power for your relay circuit.

Running then 240 volts to the front panel switch is OK if you are careful,
use the appropriately rated switch and wiring, and pay attention to detail.
I have my 120 volt main switch on the front panel.  You do not have to
replace the MOTM switch.  It can be left in place and simply interrupt the
AC between the switch and the main power transformer in the PC with your new
switch.

Larry

----- Original Message -----
From: Simon <simon@...>
To: <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [motm] Cabinet Power - How To Do It?


Would it be possible to have a remotely operated relay on the AC
input, after the rear panel power switch, inside a power supply like
the MOTM-900? The relay would be controlled by a switch on the front
panel, so that the wiring from the power supply to the front panel
carries no power.

I really would like a front panel power switch and power status leds,
with the AC input on the rear.

Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA


>This is NOT a good idea, due to safety reasons.
>
>Paul S.

>----- Original Message -----
>From: <vulture.squadron@...>
>To: "MOTM List" <motm@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 1:32 PM
>Subject: Re: [motm] Cabinet Power - How To Do It?
>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: Simon <simon@...>
>>  > I would like to have AC power connected to the rear of the cabinet,
>>  > with the power switch on the front. Is this possible?
>>
>>  hello all
>>  actually, if stooge industries carry on, i'd very much like them to
address
>>  this along with 'official' mods to the existing 900psu to incorporate a
1U
>>  front panel switch
>>
>>  or did we go over this before..?
>>
>>  cheers
>  > paul b




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> I really would like a front panel power switch and power status leds,
> with the AC input on the rear.

A MOTM-320 makes a dandy power-status LED.  :-)

--Adam

Everyone seems to be missing the point:

DO NOT MESS WITH AC WIRING!

Again, it's a safety thing. Every part in the MOTM-900 (even down to the heat-shrink) is UL
listed, verified for "hi-pot" testing (UL spec for arcing). The wiring is special, even the
Faston terminations are done on a UL-approved and inspected machine (pull test).

Paul S.

----- Original Message -----

From: Simon <simon@...>
...Battery, rechargeable or not, is a workable solution, not ideal though.

OK, if you are bound and determined to do it without bringing the AC to the
front panel, then see how you like this idea

A largish electroyltic capacitor can store plenty enough energy to energize
the coil of a relay for a short time.  There are plenty of ways to make a
circuit like this as I see it.

I would look to a connection to charge the capacitor through a diode from
the power supply with a small amount of resistance to soften the charging a
little.  The diode would assure no discharging through anything except the
relay coil.  So, the capacitor picks up the relay coil (probably a 12 volt
relay with a resistor in series).  You have to watch the wattage on the
resistors (not something we normally do). Use T=R*C to size stuff.  Time the
discharge curve and the charge curve (allowing for time for the PS to power
up) so the level that the cap discharges to during relay pick up never drops
below the drop out voltage on the coil.  Use the -15 rail since you will be
adding load to the P.S.

We do this on portable substations to trip a 10 amp circuit breaker coil
even if the AC supply to the charging circuit is suppressed (long boring
explanation about AC circuit behaviour during short circuit conditions
omitted).  In permanent installations we use batteries constantly under
charge.

Having said all that, I'd still just switch the AC with a front panel
switch.
A big one like this:
http://www.wiseguysynth.com/larry/misc/switch3.jpg

LEDs....Sure.  But, analog meters are more cool.
http://www.wiseguysynth.com/larry/misc/meters.jpg

Larry (just a Stooge)