MOTM

Looking ahead, there are some ICs of interest ONLY available in surface mount. But, not the
teeny-tiny, cellphone stuff. Rather, your "standard" SO-8 / SO-16 (0.050 lead pitch) sort of
parts.

These are for the 500 Series. Maybe I should offer "semi-kits" of soldered pcb, but no
wires/pots/etc soldered. You would still have to do this as in current kits.

What is your "comfort zone" is handling/soldering these parts? Not talking ALL parts on the
board, maybe 2 ICs out of 8.

Or....what if I could go "all DIP" but the price of the kit was $30 more? Worth $30 to have all
DIP?

Discuss.

Paul S.

I say if the quality is the same, keep the price down!

Are special tools needed?  Or would they make it easier?  If so, what tools?

Would it be cheaper to wavesolder the whole board?

--Shemp



1> Looking ahead, there are some ICs of interest ONLY available in

> surface mount. But, not the
> teeny-tiny, cellphone stuff. Rather, your "standard" SO-8 / SO-16
> (0.050 lead pitch) sort of
> parts.
>
> These are for the 500 Series. Maybe I should offer "semi-kits" of
> soldered pcb, but no
> wires/pots/etc soldered. You would still have to do this as in
> current kits.
>
> What is your "comfort zone" is handling/soldering these parts?
> Not talking ALL parts on the
> board, maybe 2 ICs out of 8.
>
> Or....what if I could go "all DIP" but the price of the kit was
> $30 more? Worth $30 to have all DIP?

Just my $0.02 worth:

> What is your "comfort zone" is handling/soldering these parts? Not talking ALL
> parts on the
> board, maybe 2 ICs out of 8.

I've never tried soldering surface-mount chips. How tricky are these parts
to work with? Can I solder them with my little Weller WLC 100 cheapie
soldering station? It worked fine for those closely spaced leads in the -300
kit.

> Or....what if I could go "all DIP" but the price of the kit was $30 more?
> Worth $30 to have all
> DIP?

$30 for all-DIP would be worth it if not going all-DIP meant having to buy
new tools. I bet I'll have to buy one of those illuminated magnifiers to
solder leads with 0.05 spacing, and that's about $30 x 3. OTOH if you can
ONLY get the parts in surface mount, then that's not really a choice, eh?

What about the pricing of the "semi-kits"? Or what about semi-kits in which
only the tricky parts are soldered?

--Adam

I don't think I mind too much, at least not for the not-so-teeny devices
you're talking about.  These days having so much stuff in surface mount
probably means dealing with it eventually, and I may as well learn it from
the school of MOTM.

Does the $30 option mean you select different, more expensive parts
available in DIP, or does it mean some kind of DIP adapter?  I soldered an
SO-16 onto one of those once (it was a little PCB with pads and some .1"
pins, only time I've ever tried anything surface mount).  It seemed to work
ok, but the adapter itself was relatively expensive.  If $30 could buy
better specs in all DIP, I'd be happy with that, but if its just going for
adapters, I think I'd just as soon learn to solder the surface mount parts.

I can appreciate that a lot of people would prefer to keep things simpler,
of course, and "advanced techniques" probably belong in the advanced kits...

                ...Craig

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
To: "MOTM listserv" <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 10:08 PM
Subject: [motm] Opinions on surface mounting


> Looking ahead, there are some ICs of interest ONLY available in surface
mount. But, not the
> teeny-tiny, cellphone stuff. Rather, your "standard" SO-8 / SO-16 (0.050
lead pitch) sort of
> parts.
>
> These are for the 500 Series. Maybe I should offer "semi-kits" of soldered
pcb, but no
> wires/pots/etc soldered. You would still have to do this as in current
kits.
>
> What is your "comfort zone" is handling/soldering these parts? Not talking
ALL parts on the
> board, maybe 2 ICs out of 8.
>
> Or....what if I could go "all DIP" but the price of the kit was $30 more?
Worth $30 to have all

> DIP?
>
> Discuss.
>
> Paul S.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

hello all,

there was a discussion along these lines on the Oakley list not long ago
in my opinion having to work with SMD would start to take the fun out of the
kits
they're a nice little stress free zone - i've only ever had experience of
SMD once, and it was not fun at all
if there were a good way of converting SMD to DIP size i'd be interested, i
think i'd also be prepared too shell out an extra $30 for the DIP version
but as paul said previously, most of his modules are now pre-assembled - so
excluding SMD stuff for the benefit of kit builders would could be
detrimental to the programme

i think craig got it in a nutshell earlier:
"I don't think I mind too much, at least not for the not-so-teeny devices
you're talking about.  These days having so much stuff in surface mount
probably means dealing with it eventually, and I may as well learn it from
the school of MOTM."

maybe we could be eased into the SMD thing gently - first SMD kit - a nice
spacious board & low parts count

cheers
paul b

> there was a discussion along these lines on the Oakley list not long ago
> in my opinion having to work with SMD would start to take the fun
> out of the kits

What Tony proposed on the Oakley list was definitely a bit different than
what Paul is currently proposing; IOW, Paul's proposal is not as difficult
if I am understanding everything correctly.

I think most of us have not had any wonderful experiences with SMD.  But we
haven't had Paul's tutolage (sp?) for SMD either.  I think learning how to
deal with SMD gradually will be a great asset to my bag of electronic
skills.  And I don't mind buying a few extra tools to do it--especially when
it keeps individual kit prices down.

My primary income now is a **DIRECT** result of what I have learned from
Paul and MOTM.  Thank you!

> they're a nice little stress free zone

MOTM is my knitting too.  Ha!

> i've only ever had experience of SMD once, and it was not fun at all

At least you were brave enough to try (or didn't have a choice?).

> maybe we could be eased into the SMD thing gently - first SMD kit - a nice
> spacious board & low parts count

Bingo!  And lots of instructions and backgroup info too!

Cheers!
Shemp

Hello all!

Installing surface mount devices of the type Paul is suggesting is 
really no more difficult than many of the mods we make to existing 
pcb's.  With the pads of the pcb pre-tinned, one simply aligns the IC 
and holds it in place with gentle pressure from a tool like a tweezer 
or small screwdriver.  This just keeps your fat fingers away from the 
soldering iron.  Heat one corner leg of the device until the solder 
melts-just a tack joint.  Then do the leg on the opposite corner.  
Lastly, heat each joint while maintaining a light downward pressure 
and you're done.

A simple tool can be made to apply downward force while leaving both 
hands free.  I read about it some months ago in QST (the radio 
amateur's magazine) and I will post the article if I find it and 
there's interest.  It resembles a tonearm for a record player (those 
too young to remember records should do a search on the 'net!)and 
should be adaptable to any work station.

Paul, if you design it-they will come...

Chub

When this came up on the Oakley list, I suggested small interface daughter
boards.  Is this possible with something small that could have the ship
already wave soldered to it.  Then the board can be attached in the space we
would have otherwise stuck the DIP.  Surely there are many ways to do that
without adding $30 to the price of a module.

But, OTOH, if you only had to add $30 to the cost of an occasional module
and the alternative was not making use of a very cool chip, then the $30
would not bother me.

Larry

----- Original Message -----
From: sikorsky <vulture.squadron@...>
To: MOTM List <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 2:57 AM
Subject: Re: [motm] Opinions on surface mounting


hello all,

there was a discussion along these lines on the Oakley list not long ago
in my opinion having to work with SMD would start to take the fun out of the
kits
they're a nice little stress free zone - i've only ever had experience of
SMD once, and it was not fun at all
if there were a good way of converting SMD to DIP size i'd be interested, i
think i'd also be prepared too shell out an extra $30 for the DIP version
but as paul said previously, most of his modules are now pre-assembled - so
excluding SMD stuff for the benefit of kit builders would could be
detrimental to the programme

i think craig got it in a nutshell earlier:
"I don't think I mind too much, at least not for the not-so-teeny devices
you're talking about.  These days having so much stuff in surface mount
probably means dealing with it eventually, and I may as well learn it from
the school of MOTM."

maybe we could be eased into the SMD thing gently - first SMD kit - a nice
spacious board & low parts count

cheers
paul b





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

1) Not thinking adapter, as you still have to *solder* the chip to the adapter. Defeats the
purpose :)

2) You would need a good, lighted magnifier. I personally could not function without one. And you
need a nice pointy tip on your iron ($4-$5 maybe). The secret is not to mangle the pins.
Something I would think about is: is it better for me to presolder it on the pcb for you versus
getting it to you intact. Versus just having it all reflowed soldered and be done with it.

3) The $30 adder may be just the way to go. BTW: these are like $15ea chips, and there are 3 of
them. This is for a small version of the Rhythm Wheel. Mainly for me to prove the concept,
provide a SW platform (it has a 8051 uP) and keep the price down (<$250 kit). The larger Rhythm
Wheel is looking like a $500 kit. Now, you have to figure out what the *?! is a Rhymth Wheel :)

BTW: in general, the 500 Series are in the $250-$300 kit range, because they use EXPENSIVE parts
(the one in the WaveWarper is a $40 chip!).

Paul S.

> Now, you have to figure out what the *?! is a Rhymth Wheel...

Is it like the Electronotes' one? Very Buchla derived thingy if I
remember rightly. Make a nice module it would.

Tony

I would prefer to have the $30 up charge for staying away from SMD, unless 
as Larry suggests, could there be an adapter that would have the SMD wave 
soldered onto it.

dave

I would just as soon not have to solder SMDs myself.  I'm probably 
one of the older farts in this group and my eyesight is not as good 
as it was and I can't quite hold a soldering iron as still as I used 
to be able to either.  I do have one of those nice big magnifier 
lights and a good soldering iron so perhaps I could do it, but I've 
never tried and I really don't want to bugger an expensive chip in 
trying to learn how.  I'd rather pay the extra $30, or have the SMD 
presoldered.  I'll still buy the module if I have to solder the SMD 
myself.  I just would rather not.

i'm on the side of not soldering this stuff either. i'm drooling over the
idea of the 500 series, so price is less an object to me than the
possibility of mangling an IC.

bleep.
out.

---
www.mp3.com/leichenfeld
www.mp3.com/captainhotrod
www.mp3.com/silenttristero

Given the comments I've read and my 'skills' at soldering, I'd prefer the
$30 extra partial kit.

Are there any readily accessible photos of what these things look like?
Jeff

> Are there any readily accessible photos of what these things look like?

Screw the photos - panels with knobs man.  Give me some sound files. Let's
HEAR the 500 series in action!!!

Les Mizzell

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Blessed is the end-user who expects
nothing, for ye shall not be
disappointed.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

DIY surface mount soldering is ripe with potential for disaster! Unless
you have a great magnifier, small tip and skinny solder....not to
mention steady hands.

I looked into reflow soldering a few SMT ICs on a new design due to
space considerations. They basically want a bunch for setup and solder
paste mask. It was going to be $10-15 a board in 100's. Cheaper after
the NRE is paid off. This is probably the best way to go for a partially
assembled kit. It also gives Paul a leg up on the assembled ones....

--

Regards,
-----------------------------
John Blacet
Blacet Research
http://www.blacet.com

If the exact SMT parts were available as DIP, or an equalivant or superior
DIP part could be used in place of the SMT part, then I would happily spend
$30 more to go "all DIP".  (Especially since the 500 kits will be $$$ to
begin with.)  If only a lesser part were available as DIP, then I guess I'd
have to deal with some SMT parts, alas.

The thing with DIPs is, if there are any issues, I feel I can handle them
myself without having to rely on returning the PCB to Synthtech for
debugging/de-soldering/soldering.  I'm not so certain about SMT.

All that being said, if SMT is the only solution, then if you were to supply
the kits as they are today with the only difference being that the PCB would
have the SMT parts already soldered, I guess I'd feel comfortable with that.

Cheers,
George

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
To: MOTM listserv <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 1:08 AM
Subject: [motm] Opinions on surface mounting


> Looking ahead, there are some ICs of interest ONLY available in surface
mount. But, not the
> teeny-tiny, cellphone stuff. Rather, your "standard" SO-8 / SO-16 (0.050
lead pitch) sort of
> parts.
>
> These are for the 500 Series. Maybe I should offer "semi-kits" of soldered
pcb, but no
> wires/pots/etc soldered. You would still have to do this as in current
kits.
>
> What is your "comfort zone" is handling/soldering these parts? Not talking
ALL parts on the
> board, maybe 2 ICs out of 8.
>
> Or....what if I could go "all DIP" but the price of the kit was $30 more?
Worth $30 to have all

> DIP?
>
> Discuss.
>
> Paul S.

At 12:08 AM -0500 2002/05/08, Paul Schreiber wrote:
>Or....what if I could go "all DIP" but the price of the kit was $30 
>more? Worth $30 to have all
>DIP?

My preferences (in order):

1. Go "all DIP", $30 isn't too much of a hit.
2. Use SMD where necessary. Provide soldering hints, maybe even a few jpegs.
3. Have the SMD parts pre-soldered.

Also consider what would be best for your "if it doesn't work, return 
it and I'll fix it for you" policy. If half of the SMD kits all come 
back to you for repairs, you're probably better off soldering the SMD 
parts yourself. How much do you trust us to get it right?

--- In motm@y..., "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@a...> wrote:
> 
> Or....what if I could go "all DIP" but the price of the kit was $30 
> more? Worth $30 to have all DIP?


My thoughts:

I vote to go all dip.   $30 is not that much considering the overall 
cost of the 500 series modules.   Us folks who assemble our kits are 
outfitted currently to do DIP, and I am guessing that most of us do 
not have the tools or experience to assemble surface mount chips.

Andy

Whatever. I'll deal with it.

Moe

I'd also like to have the smd soldering done for me and would easily pay $30
for that.  I don't trust my soldering skills to that level.

Hopefully the 500 series are still on target for summer kit delivery...

Graham




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My opinion is $30 is a lot of money and I'm in favor of cutting the price wherever that's possible. I'm less likely to buy a module if the price is higher especially if it's one of the pricier 500 series modules. ; The people who don't care about price can easily buy the assembled module.

And what about the certain eventuality of losing DIP versions of the part? I expect my MOTM to last decades (and hopefully more). If I need a DIP replacement in 10 years, I'm hosed. A good supply of DIPs in the next several years is good for Synthtech but it's not so good for us 10 years down the road when the supply has long dried up.

I vote 0.05 SMD kits.

John Speth
mailto:johns@...

I have to agree here.  It's not a question of just soldering skills,
it's a question of deteriorating eyesight.  I might be able to manage
SOICs for now, but will reach some point in the not too distant future
where I couldn't do this without a good microscope.  I already get the
young kids at work to read part numbers off the surface mount devices
for me.  Of course this transparent "white" paint they use these days
for lettering doesn't help.
John Loffink
jloffink@... 

-----Original Message-----
From: paulhaneberg [mailto:phaneber@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 10:18 AM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [motm] Re: Opinions on surface mounting
 
I would just as soon not have to solder SMDs myself.  I'm probably 
one of the older farts in this group and my eyesight is not as good 
as it was and I can't quite hold a soldering iron as still as I used 
to be able to either.  I do have one of those nice big magnifier 
lights and a good soldering iron so perhaps I could do it, but I've 
never tried and I really don't want to bugger an expensive chip in 
trying to learn how.  I'd rather pay the extra $30, or have the SMD 
presoldered.  I'll still buy the module if I have to solder the SMD 
myself.  I just would rather not.

Yes, that's my guess, the pseudo random tone wheel thing.  Create a
pseudo random tone generator from shift registers and XOR gates, then
load the results into a recirculating shift register for rhythmic
patterns.  This would be a good device for implementation on a CPLD or
small FPGA.
John Loffink
jloffink@... 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Allgood [mailto:oakley@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 9:22 AM
To: MOTM List
Subject: Re: [motm] Opinions on surface mounting
 
> Now, you have to figure out what the *?! is a Rhymth Wheel...

Is it like the Electronotes' one? Very Buchla derived thingy if I
remember rightly. Make a nice module it would.

Tony





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