MOTM

I vote a hearty NAY!  I wouldn't say that it demeans the kit-building
process, but I wouldn't want to pay extra for the "work" that I can doing
myself while relaxing.  And if the machine screws up, well... I'd rather
find something that *I* did wrong than get frusterated at something a
machine several hundred miles away did wrong.  Finding something that I did
wrong builds confidence in myself; finding something that a machine did
wrong breaks confidence in the product.

--PBr

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:23 PM
To: MOTM listserv
Subject: [motm] Attention MOTM Kit Builders!!


If you are a MOTM kit builder, I need your opinion.

Some of the upcoming (and older) kits have over 90 axial parts
(resistors/diodes/caps). I
have received quotes on providing these components sequenced on tape.

The thought occured to me today as I was doing taxes (gack!): I could have
these parts
*inserted but not soldered* in the pcb. The auto-inserting machine crimps
and shears off
the leads, so the parts are in no danger of falling out.

So, the question I have: is having pre-inserted axial parts worth $10 - $12
more per kit?

On a religious level: does this "demean" the kit-building process? Or, are
we all sick of those
resistors??!?

Yikes!  Please don't!  I would prefer to install the parts myself.  As you
say, it's part of the kit building experience.  I even prefer to sort the
parts myself, as I find the entire process relaxing.  (I also get the chance
to screw it up and then fix it later.)

Speaking of taxes, I better get started!

GeorgeK

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Paul Schreiber [SMTP:synth1@...]
> Sent:	Monday, March 12, 2001 6:23 PM
> To:	MOTM listserv
> Subject:	[motm] Attention MOTM Kit Builders!!
> 
> If you are a MOTM kit builder, I need your opinion.
> 
> Some of the upcoming (and older) kits have over 90 axial parts
> (resistors/diodes/caps). I
> have received quotes on providing these components sequenced on tape.
> 
> The thought occured to me today as I was doing taxes (gack!): I could have
> these parts
> *inserted but not soldered* in the pcb. The auto-inserting machine crimps
> and shears off
> the leads, so the parts are in no danger of falling out.
> 
> So, the question I have: is having pre-inserted axial parts worth $10 -
> $12
> more per kit?
> 
> On a religious level: does this "demean" the kit-building process? Or, are
> we all sick of those
> resistors??!?
> 
> Paul S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>

If you are a MOTM kit builder, I need your opinion.

Some of the upcoming (and older) kits have over 90 axial parts
(resistors/diodes/caps). I
have received quotes on providing these components sequenced on tape.

The thought occured to me today as I was doing taxes (gack!): I could have
these parts
*inserted but not soldered* in the pcb. The auto-inserting machine crimps
and shears off
the leads, so the parts are in no danger of falling out.

So, the question I have: is having pre-inserted axial parts worth $10 - $12
more per kit?

On a religious level: does this "demean" the kit-building process? Or, are
we all sick of those
resistors??!?

Paul S.

In a message dated 3/12/01 3:14:04 PM, synth1@... writes:

<< So, the question I have: is having pre-inserted axial parts worth $10 - $12
more per kit? >>

I would say yes, especially when it comes to big projects like sequencers and 
such.

Ivan

From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
> So, the question I have: is having pre-inserted axial parts worth $10 -
$12
> more per kit?

never in a million years..?

> On a religious level: does this "demean" the kit-building process? Or, are
> we all sick of those
> resistors??!?

i'd much prefer to do it all myself and get it wrong, than spend the extra
$10 and check the automation and still get it wrong, i love the kit ethos -
you get the bits you populate the board - that's a kit
or:
if it's not soldered down, then it might be wrong..?

erm, that's all i'm prepared to submit at this time
(bad day in the office dear...)
cheers all
paul b

On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Paul Schreiber wrote:

> If you are a MOTM kit builder, I need your opinion.
> 
> So, the question I have: is having pre-inserted axial parts worth $10 - $12
> more per kit?

  GOOD LORD--YES!!!!!

Crow

/**/

A very big NO from me!!!

As far as the religious level, I prefer to have the kit as close to the DIY 
level as possible.

So to sum up, NO

dave


At 05:23 PM 3/12/01 -0600, you wrote:

>If you are a MOTM kit builder, I need your opinion.
>
>Some of the upcoming (and older) kits have over 90 axial parts
>(resistors/diodes/caps). I
>have received quotes on providing these components sequenced on tape.
>
>The thought occured to me today as I was doing taxes (gack!): I could have
>these parts
>*inserted but not soldered* in the pcb. The auto-inserting machine crimps
>and shears off
>the leads, so the parts are in no danger of falling out.
>
>So, the question I have: is having pre-inserted axial parts worth $10 - $12
>more per kit?
>
>On a religious level: does this "demean" the kit-building process? Or, are
>we all sick of those
>resistors??!?

Hi Paul,

I too think you should not do this...

I think the "NO" meter is about 88%!!!

Tony

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:23 PM
> To: MOTM listserv
> Subject: [motm] Attention MOTM Kit Builders!!
>
>
> If you are a MOTM kit builder, I need your opinion.
>
> Some of the upcoming (and older) kits have over 90 axial parts
> (resistors/diodes/caps). I
> have received quotes on providing these components sequenced on tape.
>
> The thought occured to me today as I was doing taxes (gack!): I could have
> these parts
> *inserted but not soldered* in the pcb. The auto-inserting machine crimps
> and shears off
> the leads, so the parts are in no danger of falling out.
>
> So, the question I have: is having pre-inserted axial parts worth
> $10 - $12
> more per kit?
>
> On a religious level: does this "demean" the kit-building process? Or, are
> we all sick of those
> resistors??!?
>
> Paul S.

In a message dated 3/12/01 3:50:30 PM, david@... writes:

<< As far as the religious level, I prefer to have the kit as close to the 
DIY 
level as possible. >>

How about perf board and wirewrapping everything?

Personally, it is VERY hard for me to find the time to work on these 
projects, so as much as I enjoy them I would still like to have some items 
prestuffed.

Ivan

Wire wrapping's cool.  Worked for WECO in the early 70's and could strip 
and wire wrap about 3000 connections a day on some of the telco 
installations I worked on..  Pneumatic wire wrap gun of course.  Still have it.

dave

At 07:01 PM 3/12/01 -0500, you wrote:

>How about perf board and wirewrapping everything?
>
>Personally, it is VERY hard for me to find the time to work on these
>projects, so as much as I enjoy them I would still like to have some items
>prestuffed.

another vote for yes, stuff those things.  the hour it takes me to 
stuff the resistors is worth more to me than 12 bucks.  i love 
building the kits but tedium is tedium.

alex

>Personally, it is VERY hard for me to find the time to work on these
>projects, so as much as I enjoy them I would still like to have some items
>prestuffed.

I have to agree w/ivan here. I mainly got into building the kits because
they are cheaper than the assembled modules (all these years as a musician
have made me a cheapskate by necessity). I love building the modules, have
learned an amazing amount about electronics by doing so, but if I had the
option of pre-assembly, I'd probably take it.

____________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@...
New & Improv Media
http://www.newandimprov.com
Now available: Admiral Twinkle Devil: Wabi Dub
____________________________________________

h3y all,
NO gets my vote.  i don't feel it would demean the kit buildin' 
experience, i just enjoy the rather mindless monotony of stuffin' all 
those bloody little resistors...
 yeah, i buy the kits 'cause they're cheaper, but i'd still buy them 
if they cost as much as the assembled modules...
peace,
doc



--- In motm@y..., "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@a...> wrote:
> If you are a MOTM kit builder, I need your opinion.
> 
> Some of the upcoming (and older) kits have over 90 axial parts
> (resistors/diodes/caps). I
> have received quotes on providing these components sequenced on 
tape.
> 
> The thought occured to me today as I was doing taxes (gack!): I 
could have
> these parts
> *inserted but not soldered* in the pcb. The auto-inserting machine 
crimps
> and shears off
> the leads, so the parts are in no danger of falling out.
> 
> So, the question I have: is having pre-inserted axial parts worth 
$10 - $12
> more per kit?
> 
> On a religious level: does this "demean" the kit-building process? 
Or, are

> we all sick of those
> resistors??!?
> 
> Paul S.

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
> If you are a MOTM kit builder, I need your opinion.

Now, that's a can of worms to open

> So, the question I have: is having pre-inserted axial parts
> worth $10 - $12 more per kit?

Well, it is probably "worth it" in the most basic sense of what each
of our respective time is worth.  

HOWEVER, I want to assemble my own, and that includes putting
any parts in the wrong place.

> On a religious level: does this "demean" the kit-building process?

Yes, synth time is R & R for me.   If you are going to stuff the parts
you might as well wav solder them too.

My $.01 (I'm kind of worthless today).
Larry H

I actually like bending and placing all of the components myself.  
Maybe I am in the minority, but I would rather build em all the way.

Bruce

...and I should add that for me, the religious part comes from making music
with the MOTM, not from building it, though it is good meditation ...

____________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@...
New & Improv Media
http://www.newandimprov.com
Now available: Admiral Twinkle Devil: Wabi Dub
____________________________________________

Of corse this question is getting all kinds of responses.  I would think that 
if a person had a option of how he wanted it when buying it, there would be 
nothing wrong with that.  If forced to take the pre-stuffed boards, that 
might be a problem.  However, for some unknown reasons, some people enjoy 
wasting their short lives away with miserable petty tasks like sorting, 
bending and inserting resistors, which accounts for so many NO responses.  
Sorting resistors isn't relaxing, it's a pain in the ass.  Fortunately the 
sequenced tape helps eliminate that.

-Elhardt

> On a religious level: does this "demean" the kit-building process? Or, are
> we all sick of those
> resistors??!?

SACRILEGE!!!! SACRILEGE I SAY!!!!

um... let us stuff 'em... :)

bleep.
out.

I would agree.

The tedious part for me is sorting out the components into their respective
values ( I am blue/green colorblind so need to use a multimeter for the
resistors )

The fun part is stuffing the boards.

Sequenced components would be the way to go.

Dave



-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Cap'n F.M. Bleep [mailto:bleep@...]
-> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:07 PM
-> To: motm@yahoogroups.com
-> Subject: Re: [motm] Re: Attention MOTM Kit Builders!!
->
->
->
-> > Sequence the resistors. Those who want to sort them themselves, can
-> > pull them off the tape and throw them in a pile<g>.
->
-> agreed... sequenced parts good, stuffed parts bad...
->
-> out.
->
->
->
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-> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
->
->

Sequence the resistors. Those who want to sort them themselves, can 
pull them off the tape and throw them in a pile<g>.

Don't stuff the boards, I'd rather keep the kit price down where 
possible. Remember, folks - kit prices could go up in the future for 
other reasons, like rising component prices.

Moe

> Sequence the resistors. Those who want to sort them themselves, can
> pull them off the tape and throw them in a pile<g>.

agreed... sequenced parts good, stuffed parts bad...

out.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: <improv@...>
 I love building the modules, have learned an amazing
amount about electronics by doing so, but if I had the
option of pre-assembly, I'd probably take it.
-----
You do.  It's called assembled.  :)
LH

Please keep our costs and your costs as low as possible without sacrificing
quality!

Thanks,
Shemp

> If you are a MOTM kit builder, I need your opinion.
>
> Some of the upcoming (and older) kits have over 90 axial parts
> (resistors/diodes/caps). I
> have received quotes on providing these components sequenced on tape.
>
> The thought occured to me today as I was doing taxes (gack!): I could have
> these parts
> *inserted but not soldered* in the pcb. The auto-inserting machine crimps
> and shears off
> the leads, so the parts are in no danger of falling out.
>
> So, the question I have: is having pre-inserted axial parts worth
> $10 - $12
> more per kit?
>
> On a religious level: does this "demean" the kit-building process? Or, are
> we all sick of those
> resistors??!?
>
> Paul S.
>

As far as stuffing goes, I'm six of on, half a dozen of the other (or maybe 
I've just been watching The Prisoner too much).

In a message dated 3/12/2001 3:43:44 PM, jlarryh@... writes:

>> On a religious level: does this "demean" the kit-building process?

The Infidel chiming in here!

>Yes, synth time is R & R for me.   If you are going to stuff the parts
>you might as well wav solder them too.

I'm just wondering how much it would cost additionally to have preassembled 
PCBs (everything up to the "no clean" solder) -- this would also probably 
reduce the Stoogie phone calls to Paul about backwards components and the 
rest.


In a message dated 3/12/2001 3:49:07 PM, tony@... writes:

>I too think you should not do this...
>
>I think the "NO" meter is about 88%!!!

I enjoyed this given what Tony's views about kits are!


MOTM -- where the infidel are always concerned about fidelity!
JB

--- In motm@y..., "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@a...> wrote:
> So, the question I have: is having pre-inserted axial parts worth 
$10 - $12
> more per kit?
> 
> On a religious level: does this "demean" the kit-building process? 
Or, are
> we all sick of those
> resistors??!?
> 
> Paul S.

 I would like to keep the price down and build it myself. I, like 
others have mentioned, also find it relaxing. I think if the board is 
going to be pre-stuffed, that's pretty like getting a pre-assembled 
module. That's just not what I want to do at this point. 
 
 Andrew Sanchez

No, Thanks. I'll stuff my own.

-- 
James Holloway
jimh54@... - email
(972) 993-2023 x1188 - voicemail/fax



---- "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...> wrote:
> If you are a MOTM kit builder, I need your opinion.
> 
> Some of the upcoming (and older) kits have over 90 axial parts
> (resistors/diodes/caps). I
> have received quotes on providing these components sequenced on tape.
> 
> The thought occured to me today as I was doing taxes (gack!): I could
> have
> these parts
> *inserted but not soldered* in the pcb. The auto-inserting machine
> crimps
> and shears off
> the leads, so the parts are in no danger of falling out.
> 
> So, the question I have: is having pre-inserted axial parts worth $10
> - $12
> more per kit?
> 
> On a religious level: does this "demean" the kit-building process?
> Or, are
> we all sick of those
> resistors??!?
> 
> Paul S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 
> 

__________________________________________________
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I know I'm in the minority but for larger kits I like this idea a 
lot.  My main goal with the MOTM is to make music, though the 
assembly is a blast, too.  Time is always my issue: I can't seem to 
find enough of it.  Anything that helps me get to the noise but still 
give me the feeling of initimacy with the module (hey, no cracks 
about robot love!) is welcome!

Mike


--- In motm@y..., "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@a...> wrote:
> If you are a MOTM kit builder, I need your opinion.
> 
> Some of the upcoming (and older) kits have over 90 axial parts
> (resistors/diodes/caps). I
> have received quotes on providing these components sequenced on 
tape.
> 
...

I respectively disagree.  But, then again, I believe that we have different
views on our systems.  Mine is something I relax with, something that I do
in those rare moments of quiet alone time.  If I understand correctly, you
use yours as part of your livelihood, which gives it a much more serious
implication-- wasted time is wasted money.  

So, while for you, stuffing leads might be a pain in the a&&, I don't see it
as a miserable, petty task.  Its something I can do to let my mind unwind
after sitting in front of a computer for 8+ hours a day, attempting to
predict exactly what the best way to store and index a million electronic
documents within the constraints of a feeble database and users who don't
know what they want and a project in continuous emergency-mode development
thats several years late.  Oh, sorry, I digress... I must need more solder.
;)

--PBr, who actually likes his job.  Really!

-----Original Message-----
From: elhardt@... [mailto:elhardt@...]
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 5:58 PM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [motm] Attention MOTM Kit Builders!!


However, for some unknown reasons, some people enjoy 
wasting their short lives away with miserable petty tasks like sorting, 
bending and inserting resistors, which accounts for so many NO responses.  
Sorting resistors isn't relaxing, it's a pain in the ass.  Fortunately the 
sequenced tape helps eliminate that.

Perhaps I should explain my reason for the (now moot) yes vote.

  I design/build/repair lots of circuit boards.  Since 1981, I've designed
about 250 unique boards not counting revisions, and I've assembled more
than 3,000 boards since 1975!  Not trying to brag or anything, but when
something comes along to alleviate part of the tedium of stuffing a board,
I'll take it!  This is what happens to you if your livelihood is circuit
boards.  If you assemble the occasional board, I can see why one might
want to do everything themselves.  If you work on a dozen boards a week,
usually none of them for personal enjoyment, then you want as much done
for you as possible short of buying the assembled version.

  Maybe Paul can have some of the higher parts-count MOTM boards offered
with the option of cinched resistors, diodes, etc.  That is, available on
request.  That way, those who want 'pure' kits can have them, and those
who want time-saving steps provided can have them.

  Cheers,

    Crow--who has spent the spare moments of the past 5 days recreating
circuit boards for a once-dead CS80, and welcomes any relief on the MOTM
front.

/**/

--- In motm@y..., "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@a...> wrote:

> So, the question I have: is having pre-inserted axial parts worth 
$10 - $12
> more per kit?
> 

I vote NO on the pre-inserted parts.  I really like doing all the 
building myself.

Andy Miller