EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

I'm playing with the EXS24 demo in Logic 5.3, and from what I can 
tell, it seems that you set amplitude envelopes at the patch level, 
and if you want a sample/sound in that patch to have a different 
envelope, you make adjustments envelope +/- adjustments in the group 
section for that sound.  Is this the case?  If so, I think this is a 
very convoluted way of handling sample or tone envelope parameters.  
I prefer having the flexibility to set unique envelopes for 
samples/sounds in patches.


Paul

You are correct, and yes... it is rather limiting.

> I'm playing with the EXS24 demo in Logic 5.3, and from what I can
> tell, it seems that you set amplitude envelopes at the patch level,
> and if you want a sample/sound in that patch to have a different
> envelope, you make adjustments envelope +/- adjustments in the group
> section for that sound.  Is this the case?  If so, I think this is a
> very convoluted way of handling sample or tone envelope parameters.
> I prefer having the flexibility to set unique envelopes for
> samples/sounds in patches.
> 
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's a shame, I think the EXS24 has some real pontential, if Emagic 
put some more work into it. Its a good thing I didn't listen to the 
bozos here who were telling me that the EXS24 could easily replace my 
Akai sampler, but then again, they've probably never worked with a 
real sampler..


Paul


--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Jer Olsen <HELP@M...> wrote:
> You are correct, and yes... it is rather limiting.
> 
> > I'm playing with the EXS24 demo in Logic 5.3, and from what I can
> > tell, it seems that you set amplitude envelopes at the patch 
level,
> > and if you want a sample/sound in that patch to have a different
> > envelope, you make adjustments envelope +/- adjustments in the 
group
> > section for that sound.  Is this the case?  If so, I think this 
is a
> > very convoluted way of handling sample or tone envelope 
parameters.
> > I prefer having the flexibility to set unique envelopes for
> > samples/sounds in patches.
> > 
> > 
> > Paul
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
> >    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > For a list of places to get free samples please see:
> >    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Paul, I own a full-blown Kurzweil K2500RS but use the EXS24 most of 
the time, mainly because of its very tight timing.

Which is -as we bozo's all know ofcourse=)- the carrier of the musical 
emotion.

Also the huge amount of memory inside my (brand new) Mac, the new EQ & 
freezefunction of Logic 6, the great Altiverb and EXS' discstreaming 
function makes it easy for me to choose for this native sampler. It 
makes me work fast & good.

And I think that's the bottomline. If an AKAI makes you work fast and 
maybe even better then me, then use the AKAI.



Nick




On Friday, Mar 7, 2003, at 20:28 Europe/Amsterdam, resomania wrote:

> That's a shame, I think the EXS24 has some real pontential, if Emagic
> put some more work into it. Its a good thing I didn't listen to the
> bozos here who were telling me that the EXS24 could easily replace my
> Akai sampler, but then again, they've probably never worked with a
> real sampler..
>
>
> Paul
>
>
> --- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Jer Olsen <HELP@M...> wrote:
> > You are correct, and yes... it is rather limiting.
> >
> > > I'm playing with the EXS24 demo in Logic 5.3, and from what I can
> > > tell, it seems that you set amplitude envelopes at the patch
> level,
> > > and if you want a sample/sound in that patch to have a different
> > > envelope, you make adjustments envelope +/- adjustments in the
> group
> > > section for that sound.  Is this the case?  If so, I think this
> is a
> > > very convoluted way of handling sample or tone envelope
> parameters.
> > > I prefer having the flexibility to set unique envelopes for
> > > samples/sounds in patches.
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
> > >    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > > For a list of places to get free samples please see:
> > >    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nick,
guess it depends on where you're coming from. The EXS24 might be fine 
for patches with a few string samples that all have similar 
envelopes, or drum loops, but if you're CREATING drum patches 
yourself, most drum sounds require different envelopes (to optimize 
polyphony and minimize hiss as the sample decays), and making +/- 
adjustments to a master envelope seems very unintuitive to me. Plus, 
you can't even view/edit the envelope graphically, as far as I can 
tell. I'm going to play with it some more and see if it grows on me, 
but my first impression is that its missing a few basic features that 
traditional samplers/synths usually have.

Paul 


--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Nick Mulder <metatron@x> wrote:
> Hi Paul, I own a full-blown Kurzweil K2500RS but use the EXS24 most 
of 
> the time, mainly because of its very tight timing.
> 
> Which is -as we bozo's all know ofcourse=)- the carrier of the 
musical 
> emotion.
> 
> Also the huge amount of memory inside my (brand new) Mac, the new 
EQ & 
> freezefunction of Logic 6, the great Altiverb and EXS' 
discstreaming 
> function makes it easy for me to choose for this native sampler. It 
> makes me work fast & good.
> 
> And I think that's the bottomline. If an AKAI makes you work fast 
and 
> maybe even better then me, then use the AKAI.
> 
> 
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Friday, Mar 7, 2003, at 20:28 Europe/Amsterdam, resomania wrote:
> 
> > That's a shame, I think the EXS24 has some real pontential, if 
Emagic
> > put some more work into it. Its a good thing I didn't listen to 
the
> > bozos here who were telling me that the EXS24 could easily 
replace my
> > Akai sampler, but then again, they've probably never worked with a
> > real sampler..
> >
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > --- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Jer Olsen <HELP@M...> wrote:
> > > You are correct, and yes... it is rather limiting.
> > >
> > > > I'm playing with the EXS24 demo in Logic 5.3, and from what I 
can
> > > > tell, it seems that you set amplitude envelopes at the patch
> > level,
> > > > and if you want a sample/sound in that patch to have a 
different
> > > > envelope, you make adjustments envelope +/- adjustments in the
> > group
> > > > section for that sound.  Is this the case?  If so, I think 
this
> > is a
> > > > very convoluted way of handling sample or tone envelope
> > parameters.
> > > > I prefer having the flexibility to set unique envelopes for
> > > > samples/sounds in patches.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
> > > >    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > > > For a list of places to get free samples please see:
> > > >    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> <image.tiff>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
> >    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > For a list of places to get free samples please see:
> >    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 08:28 PM 03/07/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>Nick,
>guess it depends on where you're coming from. The EXS24 might be fine
>for patches with a few string samples that all have similar
>envelopes, or drum loops, but if you're CREATING drum patches
>yourself, most drum sounds require different envelopes (to optimize
>polyphony and minimize hiss as the sample decays), and making +/-
>adjustments to a master envelope seems very unintuitive to me. Plus,
>you can't even view/edit the envelope graphically, as far as I can
>tell. I'm going to play with it some more and see if it grows on me,
>but my first impression is that its missing a few basic features that
>traditional samplers/synths usually have.
>
>Paul

Hold on to that Akai, Paul, and I'll be keeping my EMUs for the foreseeable 
future, because the dedicated power of having separate envelopes and 
filters on every key hasn't quite caught up in the software arena yet. On 
the other hand,  just try loading one of the new mondo orchestral or piano 
sample libraries into one of our extremely memory-limited hardware samplers 
and you'll realize why we need BOTH. As was mentioned, software samplers 
are killer for giant, high-quality libraries that rely less on large doses 
of tonal and envelope tweaking than they do on sheer loadability.  Add to 
that Logic integration and sample accurate timing, and I think EXS24 
becomes a must-have for most sample users.

Sean McCoy
Oregon Sound Recording

Paul, if I need that feature -to envelope a sample- I simply make a 
program per sample..=)

I do have some seperate kick/tom/stuff programs. Works great. In a 
studioenvironment you also route each part of a drumkit to seperate 
channels.. Ok, I would like to have it in one complete program so I 
could map it out on my keyboard and start jamming, but hey, they end up 
on different channels anyway (EQ/comp/stuff) so no problem to me.

And I haven't checked the new denoiser of Logic yet, (just went from 
4.8.1 to 6.0) but it wouldn't suprise me if it worked rather ok.

Most of the drumsamples I use/make are 'oneshots', I sample them with 
the original roomreverb, so I don't need envelopetweaking. Said that, 
since I use Altiverb a lot nowadays, I'm curious about going back to 
superdry drumsamples (Hmm, pre-room EQ/compression!=).

My Kurz does 48 voices poly, the EXS on my 867 MP.. Well, pretty ok. 
Also thanks to the freezetracks. And the discstreaming ofcourse.

And ok, you can't see the envelopes. But I guess you can hear them.=)

My point is: Just look at Logic as the complete sampler, not only at 
the EXS24.

And really, in the end you'll love the timing.

But again, if the AKAI makes you work without thinking, and the EXS 
asks too much of an effort from you, stick with the AKAI. Musical 
expression needs a no-brainer tool.


Nick



On Friday, Mar 7, 2003, at 21:28 Europe/Amsterdam, resomania wrote:

> Nick,
> guess it depends on where you're coming from. The EXS24 might be fine
> for patches with a few string samples that all have similar
> envelopes, or drum loops, but if you're CREATING drum patches
> yourself, most drum sounds require different envelopes (to optimize
> polyphony and minimize hiss as the sample decays), and making +/-
> adjustments to a master envelope seems very unintuitive to me. Plus,
> you can't even view/edit the envelope graphically, as far as I can
> tell. I'm going to play with it some more and see if it grows on me,
> but my first impression is that its missing a few basic features that
> traditional samplers/synths usually have.
>
> Paul
>
>
> --- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Nick Mulder <metatron@x> wrote:
> > Hi Paul, I own a full-blown Kurzweil K2500RS but use the EXS24 most
> of
> > the time, mainly because of its very tight timing.
> >
> > Which is -as we bozo's all know ofcourse=)- the carrier of the
> musical
> > emotion.
> >
> > Also the huge amount of memory inside my (brand new) Mac, the new
> EQ &
> > freezefunction of Logic 6, the great Altiverb and EXS'
> discstreaming
> > function makes it easy for me to choose for this native sampler. It
> > makes me work fast & good.
> >
> > And I think that's the bottomline. If an AKAI makes you work fast
> and
> > maybe even better then me, then use the AKAI.
> >
> >
> >
> > Nick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Friday, Mar 7, 2003, at 20:28 Europe/Amsterdam, resomania wrote:
> >
> > > That's a shame, I think the EXS24 has some real pontential, if
> Emagic
> > > put some more work into it. Its a good thing I didn't listen to
> the
> > > bozos here who were telling me that the EXS24 could easily
> replace my
> > > Akai sampler, but then again, they've probably never worked with a
> > > real sampler..
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Jer Olsen <HELP@M...> wrote:
> > > > You are correct, and yes... it is rather limiting.
> > > >
> > > > > I'm playing with the EXS24 demo in Logic 5.3, and from what I
> can
> > > > > tell, it seems that you set amplitude envelopes at the patch
> > > level,
> > > > > and if you want a sample/sound in that patch to have a
> different
> > > > > envelope, you make adjustments envelope +/- adjustments in the
> > > group
> > > > > section for that sound.  Is this the case?  If so, I think
> this
> > > is a
> > > > > very convoluted way of handling sample or tone envelope
> > > parameters.
> > > > > I prefer having the flexibility to set unique envelopes for
> > > > > samples/sounds in patches.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
> > > > >    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > > > > For a list of places to get free samples please see:
> > > > >    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > <image.tiff>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
> > >    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > > For a list of places to get free samples please see:
> > >    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> guess it depends on where you're coming from. The EXS24 might be fine
 > for patches with a few string samples that all have similar
 > envelopes, or drum loops, but if you're CREATING drum patches
 > yourself, most drum sounds require different envelopes (to optimize
 > polyphony and minimize hiss as the sample decays), and making +/-
 > adjustments to a master envelope seems very unintuitive to me. Plus,
 > you can't even view/edit the envelope graphically, as far as I can
 > tell. I'm going to play with it some more and see if it grows on me,
 > but my first impression is that its missing a few basic features that
 > traditional samplers/synths usually have.

You've hit the head on the nail here.  The design of the EXS24 is 
HORRIBLE for creating drum patches.  Actually, it's horrible for any 
sort of multi-instrument patch.  But this is understandable (if not 
excusable) if you keep in mind that it's designed as a plug and not 
(from my point of view) as a full-blown sampler.  It's meant to be 
layered, one sampler on top of another, as opposed to managing its own 
polyphony.

Let's say you have a brass sample and a string sample.  Because the EXS 
is a plug, it's more natural to make a separate brass patch and a 
separate string patch, then load two instances of EXS in your song, and 
load one patch into each.  Now each EXS instance is responsible for 
playing just one patch and everything works great.

On another, non-plugin-oriented sampler it might make just as much sense 
to combine both samples together into one patch.  Or maybe this other 
sampler is one of those that lets you load and manage multiple patches 
at once into a single instance of the sampler.

Conceptually I really like the plug-in orientation of the EXS.  It fits 
very intuitively with the way I work.  I don't use many drum patches in 
my stuff, but when I do I tend to treat them just like my other sampled 
instruments -- I have my kick on a single EXS, my snare on another, my 
hat on another...

But I rarely have more than 8 or so drum parts in my songs.  I just pop 
those into a folder and it's all good.  I can see how this would be a 
big problem for someone who uses 120 percussive instruments in a project.

So yeah, if that's the kind of work you're going to do, the EXS is not 
the tool for you.  That doesn't invalidate it as a useful tool for 
others, but it really just hasn't been designed to do the kind of work 
you want it to.

Cheers,
-Josh Emmons

On a fine day, 07-03-2003, Nick Mulder wrote:

>Hi Paul, I own a full-blown Kurzweil K2500RS but use the EXS24 most of
>the time, mainly because of its very tight timing.
>
>Which is -as we bozo's all know ofcourse=)- the carrier of the musical
>emotion.

Very tight timing is the carrier of the musical emotion???  Wow, it's 
been long since I last heard such a ridulous statement...  Sorry for 
being so rude, but what you say here is just too bizarre.  Unless it 
was an attempt at humour of course.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com

On Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 10:58  AM, Hendrik Jan Veenstra wrote:

> On a fine day, 07-03-2003, Nick Mulder wrote:
>
>> Hi Paul, I own a full-blown Kurzweil K2500RS but use the EXS24 most of
>> the time, mainly because of its very tight timing.
>>
>> Which is -as we bozo's all know ofcourse=)- the carrier of the musical
>> emotion.
>
> Very tight timing is the carrier of the musical emotion???  Wow, it's
> been long since I last heard such a ridulous statement...  Sorry for
> being so rude, but what you say here is just too bizarre.  Unless it
> was an attempt at humour of course.


Tight timing doesn't mean perfectly quantized. It means that what you 
play in is what the softsynth plays out. In that sense Nick's comment 
has some validity.
--------
Edmund Eagan
www.twelfthroot.com

On Saturday, Mar 8, 2003, at 16:58 Europe/Amsterdam, Hendrik Jan 
Veenstra wrote:

> On a fine day, 07-03-2003, Nick Mulder wrote:
>
> >Hi Paul, I own a full-blown Kurzweil K2500RS but use the EXS24 most of
> >the time, mainly because of its very tight timing.
> >
> >Which is -as we bozo's all know ofcourse=)- the carrier of the musical
> >emotion.
>
> Very tight timing is the carrier of the musical emotion???  Wow, it's
> been long since I last heard such a ridulous statement...  Sorry for
> being so rude, but what you say here is just too bizarre.  Unless it
> was an attempt at humour of course.

No, I was serious. This is an attemp at humour:

"Dear Hendrik-Jan, now me and my fellowteachers at the Royal 
Conservatory at the Hague in the Netherlands are totally blown away by 
your bold statement and invite you hereby to come and teach us the REAL 
secret of musical expression, for centuries we have been thinking it 
was all about timing, dynamics, intonation and -general- phrasing. And 
a sampler that follows that timing more (sample)accurate than a midi 
hardware counterpart is therefor by us considered more musical..

Omega, please enlighten us.

Humbled and ashamed,

Nick Mulder"

>
> --
> Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
> Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On a fine day, 08-03-2003, Edmund Eagan wrote:

>On Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 10:58  AM, Hendrik Jan Veenstra wrote:
>
>>  On a fine day, 07-03-2003, Nick Mulder wrote:
>>
>>>  Hi Paul, I own a full-blown Kurzweil K2500RS but use the EXS24 most of
>>>  the time, mainly because of its very tight timing.
>>>
>>>  Which is -as we bozo's all know ofcourse=)- the carrier of the musical
>>>  emotion.
>>
>>  Very tight timing is the carrier of the musical emotion???  Wow, it's
>>  been long since I last heard such a ridulous statement...  Sorry for
>>  being so rude, but what you say here is just too bizarre.  Unless it
>  > was an attempt at humour of course.
>
>Tight timing doesn't mean perfectly quantized. It means that what you
>play in is what the softsynth plays out. In that sense Nick's comment
>has some validity.

Not on my planet it hasn't...  Hell, I've got LPs from the 60ies 
where all musicians manage to miss each other by half a beat or 
something -- which doesn't take away from the emotional content at 
all...  It's just very sloppy playing, but I can live with that if 
the music is good enough.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com

On a fine day, 08-03-2003, Nick Mulder wrote:

>On Saturday, Mar 8, 2003, at 16:58 Europe/Amsterdam, Hendrik Jan
>Veenstra wrote:
>
>>  On a fine day, 07-03-2003, Nick Mulder wrote:
>>
>>  >Hi Paul, I own a full-blown Kurzweil K2500RS but use the EXS24 most of
>>  >the time, mainly because of its very tight timing.
>  > >
>  > >Which is -as we bozo's all know ofcourse=)- the carrier of the musical
>  > >emotion.
>>
>  > Very tight timing is the carrier of the musical emotion???  Wow, it's
>>  been long since I last heard such a ridulous statement...  Sorry for
>>  being so rude, but what you say here is just too bizarre.  Unless it
>>  was an attempt at humour of course.
>
>No, I was serious. This is an attemp at humour:
>
>"Dear Hendrik-Jan, now me and my fellowteachers at the Royal
>Conservatory at the Hague in the Netherlands are totally blown away by
>your bold statement and invite you hereby to come and teach us the REAL
>secret of musical expression, for centuries we have been thinking it
>was all about timing, dynamics, intonation and -general- phrasing. And
>a sampler that follows that timing more (sample)accurate than a midi
>hardware counterpart is therefor by us considered more musical..

Surely timing is part of what musical expression is all about.  But 
'timing' as in 'phrasing' is (imo) entirely different from 'timing' 
as in 'sample accurate software, synced to digital clocks', etc.
Stupid example: Ike & Tina Turner (or any other music that has 
'swing') depended on timing, sure, but I don't see what that has to 
do with sample-accuracy.

Moreover, you didn't say that timing was an integral part of music, 
with which I, and anyone else I presume, obviously would agree.  You 
said that timing is "the carrier of the musical emotion" -- note: THE 
carrier -- which I still find a ridiculous statement.  Now all of a 
sudden you talk about timing AND dynamics AND intonation AND... 
That's something completely different.

"Red is the true carrier of emotion in pictures."  "No that's 
nonsense."  "Oh, you mean that all those painters who used red and 
yellow and blue and green and orange and purple and brown and black 
and white didn't know what they were doing?"

See where this argument fails?

>Omega, please enlighten us.
>
>Humbled and ashamed,

I suppose you think that since you're teaching at the conservatory, 
you are entitled to belittle someone who disagrees with you?  Cool... 
and very mature as well.  If you disagree with me, fine, no problem 
of course, but then at least come up with a decent argument and not 
this flawed, quasi-authority based rhetorics.


-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com

On Saturday, Mar 8, 2003, at 18:03 Europe/Amsterdam, Hendrik Jan 
Veenstra wrote:

> On a fine day, 08-03-2003, Nick Mulder wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, Mar 8, 2003, at 16:58 Europe/Amsterdam, Hendrik Jan
> >Veenstra wrote:
> >
> >>  On a fine day, 07-03-2003, Nick Mulder wrote:
> >>
> >>  >Hi Paul, I own a full-blown Kurzweil K2500RS but use the EXS24 
> most of
> >>  >the time, mainly because of its very tight timing.
> >  > >
> >  > >Which is -as we bozo's all know ofcourse=)- the carrier of the 
> musical
> >  > >emotion.
> >>
> >  > Very tight timing is the carrier of the musical emotion???  Wow, 
> it's
> >>  been long since I last heard such a ridulous statement...  Sorry 
> for
> >>  being so rude, but what you say here is just too bizarre.  Unless 
> it
> >>  was an attempt at humour of course.
> >
> >No, I was serious. This is an attemp at humour:
> >
> >"Dear Hendrik-Jan, now me and my fellowteachers at the Royal
> >Conservatory at the Hague in the Netherlands are totally blown away by
> >your bold statement and invite you hereby to come and teach us the 
> REAL
> >secret of musical expression, for centuries we have been thinking it
> >was all about timing, dynamics, intonation and -general- phrasing. And
> >a sampler that follows that timing more (sample)accurate than a midi
> >hardware counterpart is therefor by us considered more musical..
>
> Surely timing is part of what musical expression is all about.  But
> 'timing' as in 'phrasing' is (imo) entirely different from 'timing'
> as in 'sample accurate software, synced to digital clocks', etc.
> Stupid example: Ike & Tina Turner (or any other music that has
> 'swing') depended on timing, sure, but I don't see what that has to
> do with sample-accuracy.

I do.  And even more people do.

> Moreover, you didn't say that timing was an integral part of music,
> with which I, and anyone else I presume, obviously would agree.  You
> said that timing is "the carrier of the musical emotion" -- note: THE
> carrier -- which I still find a ridiculous statement. 

Ok, is noted. (says more about you then about music dude)

> Now all of a
> sudden you talk about timing AND dynamics AND intonation AND...
> That's something completely different.

Ok, here it is:

Sloppy timing ruins precision.

You can vibrate, phrase and scream all you want, if the timing isn't 
there, the tension is gone.

a Musician knows that.


> "Red is the true carrier of emotion in pictures."  "No that's
> nonsense."  "Oh, you mean that all those painters who used red and
> yellow and blue and green and orange and purple and brown and black
> and white didn't know what they were doing?"
>
> See where this argument fails?

Yes, clearly.

> >Omega, please enlighten us.
> >
> >Humbled and ashamed,
>
> I suppose you think that since you're teaching at the conservatory,
> you are entitled to belittle someone who disagrees with you? 

No, you're wrong again.

I suppose I can toy a bit with a person who starts a personal flame 
without actually knowing his stuff and tries to save his face.

> Cool...
> and very mature as well. 

Young at heart..

> If you disagree with me, fine, no problem
> of course, but then at least come up with a decent argument and not
> this flawed, quasi-authority based rhetorics.


If you don't understand it, that's cool (only five a year make it in my 
class).

But if you start flaming people who do understand, expect some reaction.

Ventje, je zit er gewoon falikant naast en bent te belazerd het toe te 
geven. Dat valt erg op hoor.

Leer eerst eens fatsoenlijk je oren te gebruiken tijdens het mixen -ik 
heb eea op je homepage gehoord nadat ik daar door anderen op gewezen 
ben bij wijze van komisch tijdsverdrijf- en ga dan heeel voorzichtig de 
autoriteit uithangen.

Dit zou ik letterlijk tegen een student zeggen omdat ik immers de 
plicht op me genomen heb jonge mensen te waarschuwen voor stomme fouten 
die hun latere carriere (zwaar) zou kunnen schaden..

En als je eigenlijk geen verstand hebt van de materie, wees dan niet zo 
stom je ego aan je kennis te hangen, dan pleeg je uiteindelijk een 
soort van karakterzelfmoord want moet je tegen beter weten in 
stupiditeiten blijven volhouden.

Ook dat druk ik studenten op het hart.

En de slimmen snappen dat. Want het zijn immers fouten die we allemaal 
tot op zekere hoogte maken.=)

Dag,

Nick (de toelatingsexamens starten weer in mei!!=)


(this was the last temptation)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You are a dork. I don't usually say things like that on this list. But you
seem quite thoughtless, arrogant and inconsiderate. If you've ever lost
timing accuracy in your midi gear (like the way OMS degraded with each new
incarnation of Logic from 4.5 up) then you would note that the person you
are quoting is correct. A much less accurate MIDI timing yields a much
looser feel. I'd personally rather choose when I want looser accuracy. For
that I can use the humanize function in Logic. I'm not saying it was a
stroke of genius, but think about it. Carrier doesn't imply that it is the
source of musical emotion; but it is, in fact, responsible for delivering
the emotion as intended. There were many times before switching to Logic's
built-in MIDI with the Unitor8 when accuracy killed the feel of my song. It
was one of the most aggravating, music-making periods. I stopped writing
until the issue was resolved. I don't think the statement made by the person
you are ridiculing is too much of a stretch. More to the point, I think your
email was a useless insult. What better way to follow a useless insult than
with a useful insult! Yes, you nailed it when you said you were being rude.
I've thought about whether I should post this message or not, but I wouldn't
want silence to make the other person feel that your bullshit was ok with
other list members. Try to exercise more tact if you are going to contribute
to this list. If you have a strong opinion, try to back it up with more that
whiney insults. -Jer

> Very tight timing is the carrier of the musical emotion???  Wow, it's
> been long since I last heard such a ridulous statement...  Sorry for
> being so rude, but what you say here is just too bizarre.  Unless it
> was an attempt at humour of course.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 11:45  AM, Hendrik Jan Veenstra wrote:

> On a fine day, 08-03-2003, Edmund Eagan wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 10:58  AM, Hendrik Jan Veenstra wrote:
>>
>>>  On a fine day, 07-03-2003, Nick Mulder wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Hi Paul, I own a full-blown Kurzweil K2500RS but use the EXS24 
>>>> most of
>>>>  the time, mainly because of its very tight timing.
>>>>
>>>>  Which is -as we bozo's all know ofcourse=)- the carrier of the 
>>>> musical
>>>>  emotion.
>>>
>>>  Very tight timing is the carrier of the musical emotion???  Wow, 
>>> it's
>>>  been long since I last heard such a ridulous statement...  Sorry for
>>>  being so rude, but what you say here is just too bizarre.  Unless it
>>> was an attempt at humour of course.
>>
>> Tight timing doesn't mean perfectly quantized. It means that what you
>> play in is what the softsynth plays out. In that sense Nick's comment
>> has some validity.
>
> Not on my planet it hasn't...  Hell, I've got LPs from the 60ies
> where all musicians manage to miss each other by half a beat or
> something -- which doesn't take away from the emotional content at
> all...  It's just very sloppy playing, but I can live with that if
> the music is good enough.

I agree with the last half of your paragraph, but Nick still had a 
valid point. Just because a musician misses by half a beat doesn't mean 
that was not their musical intention. It's up to the musician to 
decide, not inaccurate time-stamping by a computer. THAT was his point.
>
--------
Edmund Eagan
www.twelfthroot.com

I just realized that I shot a grenade at Hendrik. Hendrik, your statement
was really out of character. I think I was a bit harsh, but it surprises me
that you would post a statement like this. Sorry, but you pressed some major
buttons. If I align your statements with all your previous statements, I
must give you some breathing room. But obviously, I don't think what you
said was in good taste or was consistent with what I'm used to hearing from
you. Please accept my apology for being rash, but take my response with a
grain of salt. Perhaps you can glean something useful out of it. I don't
wish to make enemies of long-time-list members (or anybody for that matter)
whose contributions have been useful in general. I'm not generally a flamer
on user lists. Oh, well. I can't recall the message so... Jer

> Hendrik Jan Veenstra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Now that was genius (LOL!!!)! -Jer

> No, I was serious. This is an attemp at humour:
> 
> "Dear Hendrik-Jan, now me and my fellowteachers at the Royal
> Conservatory at the Hague in the Netherlands are totally blown away by
> your bold statement and invite you hereby to come and teach us the REAL
> secret of musical expression, for centuries we have been thinking it
> was all about timing, dynamics, intonation and -general- phrasing. And
> a sampler that follows that timing more (sample)accurate than a midi
> hardware counterpart is therefor by us considered more musical..
> 
> Omega, please enlighten us.
> 
> Humbled and ashamed,
> 
> Nick Mulder"




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oumpf..Erm, I think I insulted him back enough don't you agree?=)

In his defence I have to say it is a bit common in Holland to be the 
best know-it-all-brainiac, I also suffer more or less from this flaw.

Alas but true, dutch musicians are still beeing considered very capable 
in playing their instruments, as long as they do it alone.

I hope to contribute to a more open-minded next generation.=)


Nick


On Saturday, Mar 8, 2003, at 20:08 Europe/Amsterdam, Jer Olsen wrote:

> You are a dork. I don't usually say things like that on this list. But 
> you
> seem quite thoughtless, arrogant and inconsiderate. If you've ever lost
> timing accuracy in your midi gear (like the way OMS degraded with each 
> new
> incarnation of Logic from 4.5 up) then you would note that the person 
> you
> are quoting is correct. A much less accurate MIDI timing yields a much
> looser feel. I'd personally rather choose when I want looser accuracy. 
> For
> that I can use the humanize function in Logic. I'm not saying it was a
> stroke of genius, but think about it. Carrier doesn't imply that it is 
> the
> source of musical emotion; but it is, in fact, responsible for 
> delivering
> the emotion as intended. There were many times before switching to 
> Logic's
> built-in MIDI with the Unitor8 when accuracy killed the feel of my 
> song. It
> was one of the most aggravating, music-making periods. I stopped 
> writing
> until the issue was resolved. I don't think the statement made by the 
> person
> you are ridiculing is too much of a stretch. More to the point, I 
> think your
> email was a useless insult. What better way to follow a useless insult 
> than
> with a useful insult! Yes, you nailed it when you said you were being 
> rude.
> I've thought about whether I should post this message or not, but I 
> wouldn't
> want silence to make the other person feel that your bullshit was ok 
> with
> other list members. Try to exercise more tact if you are going to 
> contribute
> to this list. If you have a strong opinion, try to back it up with 
> more that
> whiney insults. -Jer
>
> > Very tight timing is the carrier of the musical emotion???  Wow, it's
> > been long since I last heard such a ridulous statement...  Sorry for
> > being so rude, but what you say here is just too bizarre.  Unless it
> > was an attempt at humour of course.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Henrik: loosen up, bro! We can't take each other so literally all the time.
This is email after all, and things often get blown out of proportion. I
think if the two of you were having a conversion in person, this would not
be happening. I respect both of you. We got our laughs. It's cool now...
-Jer

> Moreover, you didn't say that timing was an integral part of music,
> with which I, and anyone else I presume, obviously would agree.  You
> said that timing is "the carrier of the musical emotion" -- note: THE
> carrier -- which I still find a ridiculous statement.  Now all of a
> sudden you talk about timing AND dynamics AND intonation AND...
> That's something completely different.
> 
> "Red is the true carrier of emotion in pictures."  "No that's
> nonsense."  "Oh, you mean that all those painters who used red and
> yellow and blue and green and orange and purple and brown and black
> and white didn't know what they were doing?"
> 
> See where this argument fails?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, I guess this means you are not Jesus (I'm really enjoying this thread
now... keep it going, no really! I mean it. (psyche!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)). -Jer
;-)

> (this was the last temptation)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, I made the classic "stupid" mistake of not reading the entire thread
before losing my cool and blowing my top. Doh! Bad Jer!!

> Oumpf..Erm, I think I insulted him back enough don't you agree?=)
> 
> In his defence I have to say it is a bit common in Holland to be the
> best know-it-all-brainiac, I also suffer more or less from this flaw.
> 
> Alas but true, dutch musicians are still beeing considered very capable
> in playing their instruments, as long as they do it alone.
> 
> I hope to contribute to a more open-minded next generation.=)
> 
> 
> Nick




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Logic crashes nearly every time I create a new instrument and try to save
it. Anyone else had that problem?

Here's another, Pultec (UAD-1) stutters and skip when put on the Output
stereo channel. Neither the UAD or the Mac are anywhere near their max, not
even 2/3.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I should clarify that this is only in OS9.

> Logic crashes nearly every time I create a new instrument and try to save
> it. Anyone else had that problem?
> 
> Here's another, Pultec (UAD-1) stutters and skip when put on the Output
> stereo channel. Neither the UAD or the Mac are anywhere near their max, not
> even 2/3.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

doesn't happen for me.  if i have the same samples that you're using i 
can try creating the
kit you're attempting to on my system


On Saturday, March 8, 2003, at 03:02 PM, Jer Olsen wrote:

> I should clarify that this is only in OS9.
>
> > Logic crashes nearly every time I create a new instrument and try to 
> save
> > it. Anyone else had that problem?
> >
> > Here's another, Pultec (UAD-1) stutters and skip when put on the 
> Output
> > stereo channel. Neither the UAD or the Mac are anywhere near their 
> max, not
> > even 2/3.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
> >    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > For a list of places to get free samples please see:
> >    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Happens with any kit. The samples don't matter. I'm just building the kits
on OSX instead, but it would be nice to get to the bottom of it. V6 will
probably make this a moot point.

> doesn't happen for me.  if i have the same samples that you're using i
> can try creating the
> kit you're attempting to on my system




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On a fine day, 08-03-2003, Nick Mulder wrote:

>  > I suppose you think that since you're teaching at the conservatory,
>>  you are entitled to belittle someone who disagrees with you? 
>
>No, you're wrong again.
>
>I suppose I can toy a bit with a person who starts a personal flame
>without actually knowing his stuff and tries to save his face.

I don't start a personal flame.  I simply responded to the kind of 
argument I've heardnumerous times from 20-year olds who use prefab 
loops and think they make great music because their music is 
sample-accurate.

If you meant it in a different way than that (which apparently is the 
case) then I apologize.  I still think then though that the original 
statement needs a lot of ifs and buts and clarification and nuance. 
As a conservatory teacher, you surely agree with the fact that 
musical emotion is a matter of harmony, melody _and_ timing, and not 
just timing alone -- and that's the basic idea to which I responded.
Hell, you can play a 3-chord top-40 tune with exact timing and have 
no emotion at all, and even if you play Bach in a somewhat sloppy 
way, the emotion is still there -- too strong to be killed by sloppy 
playing.

>Ventje, je zit er gewoon falikant naast en bent te belazerd het toe te
>geven. Dat valt erg op hoor.
>[...]

Offending me in a language that hardly anyone can read in a public 
international forum is not what I would call polite.  But that's 
probably just me.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com

On a fine day, 08-03-2003, Edmund Eagan wrote:

>  > Not on my planet it hasn't...  Hell, I've got LPs from the 60ies
>>  where all musicians manage to miss each other by half a beat or
>>  something -- which doesn't take away from the emotional content at
>>  all...  It's just very sloppy playing, but I can live with that if
>>  the music is good enough.
>
>I agree with the last half of your paragraph, but Nick still had a
>valid point. Just because a musician misses by half a beat doesn't mean
>that was not their musical intention.

Uhm, I mean I have LPs where the musicians miss each otehr by half a 
beat _unintentionally_.  Just sloppy playing or whatever.

>It's up to the musician to
>decide, not inaccurate time-stamping by a computer. THAT was his point.

Well, if that was the point then I agree.  Sure, a machine should be 
as exact as possible -- human timing already is sloppy enough as it 
is in general, without machines adding to that.  The point to which I 
responded though was that exact timing was supposed to be _the_ 
carrier of musical emotion -- which is again a quite different thing 
imo.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com

On a fine day, 08-03-2003, Jer Olsen wrote:

>I just realized that I shot a grenade at Hendrik. Hendrik, your statement
>was really out of character. I think I was a bit harsh, but it surprises me
>that you would post a statement like this.

OK, maybe I was a bit fast and harsh, for which I then obviously 
should apologize to the list in general and Nick in particular.  Let 
me explain a bit, since usually (as most of you hopefully know) I'm 
not the most unreasonable person on the planet...

What I read was: timing is THE carrier of musical emotion.

My association with a statement like this: house, dance or any top-40 
tune, tight to the microsecond, but most often with a complete lack 
of emotion.  And a documentary I saw some time ago where an old 
Afro-American sat in front of his house, playing Bach on a bluesharp, 
sending shivers down my spine.  This Afro-American surely couldn't be 
othered with sample-accuracy.

With such associations, a rather unqualified statement like 'timing 
is the carrier of musical emotion' indeed starts to look a bit silly, 
and sounds like something one of my 18-year old students could have 
said, making "great tunes" on his home-PC with out of the box loops 
and stuff -- especially since harmony, melody and all other 
ingredients that make up music seem to be downgraded to second-rate 
(which many 18 year olds indeed seem to do), which imo they aren't.

Maybe (or should that be 'probably'?) I read something in this 
statement that wasn't there -- maybe the statement was completely 
innocent and I made it into something else.  In that case, once more, 
I apologize, even though I still feel like such a statement could do 
with a bit more nuance then.

>Please accept my apology for being rash, but take my response with a
>grain of salt.

You don't need to apologize -- but thanks anyway.  And no, no hard feelings.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com

On Sunday, Mar 9, 2003, at 11:03 Europe/Amsterdam, Hendrik Jan Veenstra 
wrote:

> On a fine day, 08-03-2003, Nick Mulder wrote:
>
> >  > I suppose you think that since you're teaching at the 
> conservatory,
> >>  you are entitled to belittle someone who disagrees with you?
> >
> >No, you're wrong again.
> >
> >I suppose I can toy a bit with a person who starts a personal flame
> >without actually knowing his stuff and tries to save his face.
>
> I don't start a personal flame. 

Yes, you did. It was noticed. Don't change it ad hoq.

> I simply responded to the kind of
> argument I've heardnumerous times from 20-year olds who use prefab
> loops and think they make great music because their music is
> sample-accurate.

And you just needed to show you knew it better hm?=)

I also simply responded to such an response, I thought you were such a 
20-year old smartass who asked to be put back in his place.

So I guess you don't mind me doing that.


> If you meant it in a different way than that (which apparently is the
> case) then I apologize. 

I didn't meant it different, it _is_ different.

You simply misread/understood it and can't admit that.

The great difference between analog recording and midirecording of an 
synthesizer is the timing of the notes on playback of a liverecording. 
For this reason many people choose analog recording (in the past) so 
that the inherent quantisation of the computer -the first sequencers 
had a grid of 64 clockpulses!- didn't mess up their groove. Remember 
that, that's important sequencerhistory.

> I still think then though that the original
> statement needs a lot of ifs and buts and clarification and nuance.

That's ok, you're free to do with your time what you want.

> As a conservatory teacher, you surely agree with the fact that
> musical emotion is a matter of harmony, melody _and_ timing, and not
> just timing alone -- and that's the basic idea to which I responded.

Yes, we all know you got the message wrong.

Don't make it worse by stating that your misinterpretation allows you 
to start flaming.

Oops, you just did.

> Hell, you can play a 3-chord top-40 tune with exact timing and have
> no emotion at all, and even if you play Bach in a somewhat sloppy
> way, the emotion is still there -- too strong to be killed by sloppy
> playing.

Nope. That's called 'magical style'. You can even cut up a Bach 
fuga/invention by playing only the 4th quarter of every bar, put all 
those 4th beats together and for some magical reason -wich is called 
'style', 'fundament'- you still hear Bach, even if 75% of the score is 
amputated.

That has nothing to do with timing, that's architecture, composition. 
Wrong again.

We're talking here about musicians who have a certain idea, a certain 
feel about how they wanna play a song, and notice they loose that feel 
when they record it in a computer.

There was a time -really- that for that reason keyboardplayers refused 
to play into a computer, but went straight to tape.

Things even got worse with the first digital synths, who's 
scanninglogics/DSPlatencies were way too slow to allow tight playing.

(that's also important sequencerhistory)


> >Ventje, je zit er gewoon falikant naast en bent te belazerd het toe te
> >geven. Dat valt erg op hoor.
> >[...]
>
> Offending me in a language that hardly anyone can read in a public
> international forum is not what I would call polite.  But that's
> probably just me.


Ouf, you've got me there. I'm very unpolite and you are so right.

Djeez, I'm glad I don't have to feed you every day..

I understand from the LUGforum you're good in cabling environments 
together, that's great, we need people who will do that stuff.

Please stick to your field ok?

NM

>
> --
> Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
> Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sunday, Mar 9, 2003, at 11:17 Europe/Amsterdam, Hendrik Jan Veenstra 
wrote:

> On a fine day, 08-03-2003, Jer Olsen wrote:
>
> >I just realized that I shot a grenade at Hendrik. Hendrik, your 
> statement
> >was really out of character. I think I was a bit harsh, but it 
> surprises me
> >that you would post a statement like this.
>
> OK, maybe I was a bit fast and harsh, for which I then obviously
> should apologize to the list in general and Nick in particular.  Let
> me explain a bit, since usually (as most of you hopefully know) I'm
> not the most unreasonable person on the planet...
>
> What I read was: timing is THE carrier of musical emotion.
>
> My association with a statement like this: house, dance or any top-40
> tune, tight to the microsecond, but most often with a complete lack
> of emotion.  And a documentary I saw some time ago where an old
> Afro-American sat in front of his house, playing Bach on a bluesharp,
> sending shivers down my spine.  This Afro-American surely couldn't be
> othered with sample-accuracy.

He would if you started recording him in a sequencer.

Escpecially those 'afro-americans' have this thing about timing.

And again, your association was wrong. Timing IS the carrier, wether 
you like it or not.

You think it all has to do with sloppy coincidence (which is indeed the 
case with louzy amateur musicians), but timing is spontanious, 
emotional, it is considered the 'character' of the musician in the 
music, it carries the 'statement'. Ask any afro-american jazzplayer, 
they'll agree.

Musicians don't like attacks on their character.


NM (cable on dude)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 9/3/03 11:12, "Nick Mulder" <metatron@...> wrote:

> Ouf, you've got me there. I'm very unpolite and you are so right.
> 
> Djeez, I'm glad I don't have to feed you every day..
> 
> I understand from the LUGforum you're good in cabling environments
> together, that's great, we need people who will do that stuff.
> 
> Please stick to your field ok?
> 
> NM

This is quite enough Nick - Hendrik has apologised for his initial post and
you do not even have the good grace to accept his apology;  instead you
continue to throw insults.

He is a very helpful / thoughtful member of the LUG / EXS community.  Yes he
has strong opinions which may sometimes come across as arrogant or abrasive,
but the standard of his contributions over the years to this group has been
very high - and his frequent assistance with technical matters and the FAQ /
Logic tips section is invaluable for many people.

You, having been flamed and taken offence, have just piled on the invective
and seem not to be big enough to stand down for a moment.

I don't mind strong disagreements - indeed I think they're very healthy (and
I don't agree with Hendrik's implication that rigorously quantized
electronic or dance music tends to lack emotional affect - for example).
But you do yourself no favours by the very deliberately insulting manner in
which you make your arguments.  As they say in football you should play the
ball and not the man.

> Musicians don't like attacks on their character.

no one likes attacks on their character - musicians (the somewhat rude
implication being that you are one and Hendrik is not?) are not some higher
breed. you have amply demonstrated that. everyone deserves some respect and
politeness.

sorry,

pk

On a fine day, 09-03-2003, Nick Mulder wrote:

>I understand from the LUGforum you're good in cabling environments
>together, that's great, we need people who will do that stuff.
>
>Please stick to your field ok?

Do you honestly expect a serious reply to a post like this?


-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com

>
>
> no one likes attacks on their character - musicians (the somewhat rude
> implication being that you are one and Hendrik is not?) are not some 
> higher
> breed. you have amply demonstrated that. everyone deserves some 
> respect and
> politeness.
>
> sorry,
>
> pk
>

Point taken.

Last mark on my behalf:

I hate false statements about music coming from highschool 
math-teachers.

Knotting transformers together doesn't make you a musician.

When you try to act like something you aren't, that's when you consider 
yourself higher breed.


But ofcourse I'm way out of line here, we should be nice & patient to 
everybody.

NM






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sunday, Mar 9, 2003, at 13:41 Europe/Amsterdam, Hendrik Jan Veenstra 
wrote:

> On a fine day, 09-03-2003, Nick Mulder wrote:
>
> >I understand from the LUGforum you're good in cabling environments
> >together, that's great, we need people who will do that stuff.
> >
> >Please stick to your field ok?
>
> Do you honestly expect a serious reply to a post like this?

No, ofcourse not, you already showed you can't.

Stick to (teaching) the math man, you're strong there.

And since I overstept my line here way too much, I wont comment on your 
singingskills.

http://www.omega-art.com/hear/nextlife.mp3

I'll shut up now,

NM








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sunday, Mar 9, 2003, at 13:22 Europe/Amsterdam, The Pupkid wrote:
>

Oh, BTW:
>
> You, having been flamed and taken offence, have just piled on the 
> invective
> and seem not to be big enough to stand down for a moment.

That's not it, its worse:

I like it.

NM (just beeing honest)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 9/3/03 13:12, "Nick Mulder" <metatron@...> wrote:
 
> And since I overstept my line here way too much, I wont comment on your
> singingskills.

well, you just plumbed new depths for any public forum I've been on. yuck.

> http://www.omega-art.com/hear/nextlife.mp3
> 
> I'll shut up now,

i think you should.

pk

Hmm, 

I guess the works of that renowned late 20th  century American philosopher, 
Rodney King, have made little impact in the Netherlands.

Regards,
M

On Sunday, Mar 9, 2003, at 14:28 Europe/Amsterdam, The Pupkid wrote:

> On 9/3/03 13:12, "Nick Mulder" <metatron@...> wrote:
>
> > And since I overstept my line here way too much, I wont comment on 
> your
> > singingskills.
>
> well, you just plumbed new depths for any public forum I've been on. 
> yuck.

You should watch me when I'm on a new-age forum and they start 
spreading their insane gospel about the healing powers of music. They 
surely need them when I'm gone.

>
> > http://www.omega-art.com/hear/nextlife.mp3
> >
> > I'll shut up now,
>
> i think you should.

Come on, be honest! There wasn't anything wrong until Hendrik-Jan 
started playing the man as you call it, and I happen to like to play 
along! No prob.
Ofcourse I know that makes people nerveous, so one can do that for a 
limited time only, but until then it can be real fun.

I'm honest about that, and don't like the fact that the netetiquette 
offers an oppertunity for smartasses to hide behind the wall of 
political-correct dialog.

I can be nice too, really.

Trust me.=)

NM

>
> pk
>
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Original phrase that caused all the trouble:

"Timing is _the_ carrier of musical emotion"

This has turned into a Clintonian debate on the meaning of the word "the". While both of you make cogent points, I think much of the trouble began by different conceptions of the intent of the word "the".

> I understand from the LUGforum you're good in cabling environments
> together, that's great, we need people who will do that stuff.
>
> Please stick to your field ok?

Nick I have to stand up for my buddy Hendrik Jan at this point. While we can all enjoy heated debates/arguments, and even tolerate the occasional light flame war, you have turned this into an insulting hurtful personal attack. And that is never necessary. And it seems like you are actually enjoying it. Can you please lower the rhetoric down a couple of notches for the sake of general list etiquette, not to mention basic good manners? I don't think I am alone when I say that your last posts have been offensive to us all.



--
Eli Krantzberg
Nightshift Orchestra / Almat Productions
http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com

On Sunday, Mar 9, 2003, at 14:45 Europe/Amsterdam, Eli Krantzberg wrote:

> Original phrase that caused all the trouble:
>
> "Timing is _the_ carrier of musical emotion"
>
> This has turned into a Clintonian debate on the meaning of the word 
> "the". While both of you make cogent points, I think much of the 
> trouble began by different conceptions of the intent of the word > "the".
>
> > I understand from the LUGforum you're good in cabling environments
> > together, that's great, we need people who will do that stuff.
> >
> > Please stick to your field ok?
>
> Nick I have to stand up for my buddy Hendrik Jan at this point. While 
> we can all enjoy heated debates/arguments, and even tolerate the 
> occasional light flame war, you have turned this into an insulting 
> hurtful personal attack.

Uhuh.

>  And that is never necessary.

Well, it can be fun disarming smartasses. And if Saddam was treated 
that way, Iraq wouldn't burn.

> And it seems like you are actually enjoying it.

Yes, it's karmarepairday tomorrow..

> Can you please lower the rhetoric down a couple of notches for the 
> sake of general list etiquette, not to mention basic good manners? I 
> don't think I am alone when I say that your last posts have been 
> offensive to us all.

Ok, people, sorry about the link, that WAS bad taste.

Ofcourse I can lower it. But when one starts playing on me, then we'll 
play, even if you hide behind etiquette.

Boy, you guys are _never_ gonna answer a question from me again.=)

I'll make it up to you, I'll promise.

Bye,

Nick




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sunday, Mar 9, 2003, at 14:40 Europe/Amsterdam, Murray McDowall 
wrote:

> Hmm,
>
> I guess the works of that renowned late 20th  century American 
> philosopher,
> Rodney King, have made little impact in the Netherlands.
>
> Regards,
> M

Don't tell me I missed a riot

NM



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nick Mulder wrote: 
>
> Don't tell me I missed a riot


You like riots too?

M

On Sunday, Mar 9, 2003, at 15:46 Europe/Amsterdam, Murray McDowall 
wrote:

> Nick Mulder wrote:
> >
> > Don't tell me I missed a riot
>
>
> You like riots too?
>

If you want some, come overhere! This week we just had a very large 
pack of muslim fascists (the AEL-party) joining our democracy with the 
sole purpose of overthrowing it and installing the sharia!

Should be fun!

NM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nick Mulder wrote:

>
> If you want some, come overhere! This week we just had a very large 
> pack of muslim fascists (the AEL-party) joining our democracy with the 
> sole purpose of overthrowing it and installing the sharia!
>
> Should be fun!


The idea of doing something similar in Australia (low single figures % Muslim
population) has its adherents in our neighbouring SE Asian countries.  It
hasn't got to the stage of riots here though. Funny thing -- the biggest
demonstrations in living memory filled the streets of the Australian capitals
just a couple of weeks ago: 150K+ in Melbourne and 200K odd in Sydney. They
were intended to get our supposedly representative democratic government to
take some notice of the overwhelming public opposition to Australian
participation in the proposed adventure in Iraq -- particularly in the case
where this would be without UN sanction. Our fearless leaders remain
undeterred.

Regards,
Murray

For the record, Hendrik, your email was inflammatory, hence the term flame.
Your original email, albeit very short, puts down another person's opinion
and was arrogant. If you can't see that, it's a shame. I have fired off
unfair retorts at people who may not have deserved it a few times, but I
usually don't have a problem admitting fault in that case. It doesn't mean
that I don't think I was right, but that's beside the point if I'm simply
being rude. You even admitted that you might have sounded rude in your first
email. Despite your indemnification clause, it still came off that way, even
to me who it wasn't directed at. This is getting far too technical. You both
seem to agree and yet the argument persists. On behalf of the list, I ask
you to let this go. Your just debating semantics at this point, and it's
futile. Ok, he forgot to mention a few other facets that "carry musical
emotion." Who gives a shit (besides you)? We all got your point and the
theme is becoming repetitive. Can we let this go? Please? -Jer

>> > I don't start a personal flame. 
> 
> Yes, you did. It was noticed. Don't change it ad hoq.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEE STOP!

> 
> On Sunday, Mar 9, 2003, at 14:28 Europe/Amsterdam, The Pupkid wrote:
> 
>> > On 9/3/03 13:12, "Nick Mulder" <metatron@...> wrote:
>> >
>>> > > And since I overstept my line here way too much, I wont comment on
>> > your
>>> > > singingskills.
>> >
>> > well, you just plumbed new depths for any public forum I've been on.
>> > yuck.
> 
> You should watch me when I'm on a new-age forum and they start
> spreading their insane gospel about the healing powers of music. They
> surely need them when I'm gone.
> 
>> >
>>> > > http://www.omega-art.com/hear/nextlife.mp3
>>> > >
>>> > > I'll shut up now,
>> >
>> > i think you should.
> 
> Come on, be honest! There wasn't anything wrong until Hendrik-Jan
> started playing the man as you call it, and I happen to like to play
> along! No prob.
> Ofcourse I know that makes people nerveous, so one can do that for a
> limited time only, but until then it can be real fun.
> 
> I'm honest about that, and don't like the fact that the netetiquette
> offers an oppertunity for smartasses to hide behind the wall of
> political-correct dialog.
> 
> I can be nice too, really.
> 
> Trust me.=)
> 
> NM
> 
>> >
>> > pk
>> >
>> >
> <image.tiff>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>> >    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>> > For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>> >    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sunday, Mar 9, 2003, at 17:50 Europe/Amsterdam, Jer Olsen wrote:

> AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
> !!!!
>
> PLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEE STOP!

Had enough?=)

NM

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK, I think I've spent more time criticizing Hendrik than Nick, but after
viewing the entire thread, I think you both should go sit in the corner! -Jer


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm there, with my wife & dinner!

yum..


On Sunday, Mar 9, 2003, at 17:54 Europe/Amsterdam, Jer Olsen wrote:

> OK, I think I've spent more time criticizing Hendrik than Nick, but 
> after
> viewing the entire thread, I think you both should go sit in the 
> corner! -Jer
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eli Krantzberg wrote:

>Original phrase that caused all the trouble:

>"Timing is _the_ carrier of musical emotion"

>This has turned into a Clintonian debate on the meaning of the word "the".
While both of you make cogent points, I think >much of the trouble began by
different conceptions of the intent of the word "the".

>> I understand from the LUGforum you're good in cabling environments
>> together, that's great, we need people who will do that stuff.
>>
>> Please stick to your field ok?

>Nick I have to stand up for my buddy Hendrik Jan at this point. While we
can all enjoy heated debates/arguments, and even  >tolerate the occasional
light flame war, you have turned this into an insulting hurtful personal
attack. And that is never >necessary. And it seems like you are actually
enjoying it. Can you please lower the rhetoric down a couple of notches for
the >sake of general list etiquette, not to mention basic good manners? I
don't think I am alone when I say that your last posts >have been offensive
to us all.


>Eli Krantzberg


I would like to strongly second Eli's comments here. I know of no member of
any of the lists I am subscribed to who distinguishes hmself with the
quality and quantity of his knowledgeable, helpful posts as Hendrik Jan
Veenstra.

Recently, a few of us on the LUG pooled together to write some online help
for Logic which is now hosted on Hendrik Jans' website. The bulk of the FAQ
is actually HJ's work, and he put it together in astonishingly little time.
He didn't have to do that, and I for one can only admire his motives and
constant willingness to help.

HJ, try not to let it bother you, chill, you have better things to do right
now...

kind regards

Mark Cahill

> From: Hendrik Jan Veenstra <h@...>
> Reply-To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 13:41:47 +0100
> To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [exs] checking out demo, question about envelopes..
> 
> On a fine day, 09-03-2003, Nick Mulder wrote:
> 
>> I understand from the LUGforum you're good in cabling environments
>> together, that's great, we need people who will do that stuff.
>> 
>> Please stick to your field ok?
> 
> Do you honestly expect a serious reply to a post like this?
Well, I dunno, Hendrik. When I tune into WWV I nearly have an orgasm. And my
bedside clock makes me cry.

Bob Vandiver

On a fine day, 09-03-2003, Jer Olsen wrote:

>For the record, Hendrik, your email was inflammatory, hence the term flame.

Okay, granted. I was tired, I read a msg that seemed to be very 
silly, and I responded in a not too politically correct way.  Rather 
soon it became clear that I'd read something in Nick's message which 
was intended differently.  That's my fault, which I already admitted, 
and apologized for.  Instead of stopping there however, _Nick_ was 
the one who choose to turn this into an outrageous personal attack -- 
too which, to speak up for my own defense, I hardly responded.

>You both seem to agree and yet the argument persists. On behalf of 
>the list, I ask you to let this go.

For the record: you may have noticed that I haven't replied anyumore 
to any of the outrageously insulting stuff that was fired at me -- 
and which was, in my humble opinion, way, way beyond anything I ever 
"asked for" with my original posting.
You're right though: I don't think anyone in this group is really 
entertained by this kind of, uhm, mature exchange of viewpoints.  So 
yes, I intend to let this die out, for the sake of all list members, 
and my own.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.omega-art.com

Hendrik,

Your most recent comments are very well-spoken. Thanks for the response. -Jer


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

whew! ok, back to the original issue at hand (that being software 
samplers).  Can anyone recommend any other software samplers besides 
the EXS24 or Kontakt for the mac?  I'm currently playing with both 
demos, and to be honest, neither one is what I was hoping for (the 
EXS has its paramaters at the patch level for the most part, and I 
prefer my parameters at the sample/tone level, and Kontact is more 
modular, but appears to offer few navigational tools and commands 
accessible from command keys).  Again, I've only played with the 
demos a little, and that's what I've noticed so far.  Are there any 
other software samplers out there for the mac??

Paul


--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Jer Olsen <HELP@M...> wrote:
> Hendrik,
> 
> Your most recent comments are very well-spoken. Thanks for the 
response. -Jer

> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul wrote:

>Are there any 
> other software samplers out there for the mac??

MOTU MachFive. But that one will nog be available until april.

Eppo Schaap
Galbatron Epic Symphonic Electronica
www.galbatron.com
music: www.mp3.com/galbatron

The MOTU Mach Five looks VERY intriguing. If it's every thing they claim, I
might even switch. -Jer

> whew! ok, back to the original issue at hand (that being software
> samplers).  Can anyone recommend any other software samplers besides
> the EXS24 or Kontakt for the mac?  I'm currently playing with both
> demos, and to be honest, neither one is what I was hoping for (the
> EXS has its paramaters at the patch level for the most part, and I
> prefer my parameters at the sample/tone level, and Kontact is more
> modular, but appears to offer few navigational tools and commands
> accessible from command keys).  Again, I've only played with the
> demos a little, and that's what I've noticed so far.  Are there any
> other software samplers out there for the mac??
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> --- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Jer Olsen <HELP@M...> wrote:
>> > Hendrik,
>> > 
>> > Your most recent comments are very well-spoken. Thanks for the
> response. -Jer
>> > 
>> > 
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 08:08 AM, Jer Olsen wrote:

> The MOTU Mach Five looks VERY intriguing. If it's every thing they 
> claim, I
> might even switch. -Jer

Naah, stick to the EXS. Apple owns the legal right to do Dolby AC3 and 
DTSstuff, so I guess we can expect some nice updates in the future..==)

NM

Emagic really needs to get their ass in gear and add drag & drop support as
well as other global parameter changes. I spent way too much time building
new kits two nights ago. Big time waster. Well, my statement was a little
premature. I doubt I'll switch, but we'll see.

>> > The MOTU Mach Five looks VERY intriguing. If it's every thing they
>> > claim, I
>> > might even switch. -Jer
> 
> Naah, stick to the EXS. Apple owns the legal right to do Dolby AC3 and
> DTSstuff, so I guess we can expect some nice updates in the future..==)
> 
> NM




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]