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[exs] OT using sample libraries

[exs] OT using sample libraries

2001-12-07 by Julie Larson

Hi everyone,
I think there is something wrong with my 
paradym about using sample libraries.  
Take one like Advanced Orchestra where 
there are gads of different attacks and 
articulations for each instrument.  It seems 
like the pieces are there to build a plausibly 
realistic sounding line...but it also seems 
like since they are all in different patches 
that it would require many different midi 
channels to achieve this..a trill on one 
channel, a half step slur on another, 
section slides on another and of course 
that one octave run...it could go on like this 
until you didn't have any midi channels 
left...what are you guys doing?  

I recently bought the Quantum Leap Rare 
instruments library for Akai...it was originally 
programed for Gigasampler using a lot of 
key-switching and as a result was very 
"user friendly" So... the low Irish Whistle  
was a single 95 meg patch in 
gigasampler...In the akai version it's about 
30 different programs ...I understand the 
reasoning behind this programming...but 
my destination is the EXS and fat programs 
aren't a problem if you have the ram.  Is 
key=switching  something peculiar to 
Gigasampler...or is that something that I 
could recreate in the EXS....Or... please 
send me to someplace where these 
questions are more appropriate.  Thanks

julie
-- 

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Re: [exs] OT using sample libraries

2001-12-07 by HELP@MusicBootCamp.com

I agree with your perspective. -Jer
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Julie Larson" <julielarson@...>
> Reply-To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 22:07:46 +0800
> To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [exs] OT using sample libraries
> 
> Hi everyone,
> I think there is something wrong with my
> paradym about using sample libraries.
> Take one like Advanced Orchestra where
> there are gads of different attacks and
> articulations for each instrument.  It seems
> like the pieces are there to build a plausibly
> realistic sounding line...but it also seems
> like since they are all in different patches
> that it would require many different midi
> channels to achieve this..a trill on one
> channel, a half step slur on another,
> section slides on another and of course
> that one octave run...it could go on like this
> until you didn't have any midi channels
> left...what are you guys doing?
> 
> I recently bought the Quantum Leap Rare
> instruments library for Akai...it was originally
> programed for Gigasampler using a lot of
> key-switching and as a result was very
> "user friendly" So... the low Irish Whistle
> was a single 95 meg patch in
> gigasampler...In the akai version it's about
> 30 different programs ...I understand the
> reasoning behind this programming...but
> my destination is the EXS and fat programs
> aren't a problem if you have the ram.  Is
> key=switching  something peculiar to
> Gigasampler...or is that something that I
> could recreate in the EXS....Or... please
> send me to someplace where these
> questions are more appropriate.  Thanks
> 
> julie
> -- 
> 
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>

Re: [exs] OT using sample libraries

2001-12-07 by PersingEP@aol.com

Hi Julie,

You are absolutely correct in that this is a serious issue with the Logic/EXS 
approach. The two problems are that:

1.  EXS isn't multitimbral and doesn't have Key switching. ..(which would be 
OK if you had more Audio Instrument Tracks...but...)

2.  Logic doesn't have enough Audio instrument tracks to do this kind of 
work. Logic 5 will be increased to 32, but that's still almost nothing for 
doing orchestral work, where you have loads of patches set up all the time, 
and each one only plays a note here and there...which is how most composers 
now work with Gigastudio. (Of course, Cubase only has 8 audio instrument 
tracks....but Performer and Pro Tools is unlimited!)

I've talked to the Germans about this, but they just don't seem to understand 
how composers work this way. It's one of the only reasons that Giga is so 
popular amongst composers. The EXS is a very good sampler, the concept of 
this virtual system is better suited to pop/techno music, than flexible 
enough for serious orchestral work.

If the EXS was multitimbral like HALion is, (and streamed from disc)..that 
would solve a lot of these issues.

Eric Persing
Spectrasonics


In a message dated 12/7/01 6:08:34 AM, julielarson@... writes:

>Hi everyone,
>I think there is something wrong with my 
>paradym about using sample libraries.  
>Take one like Advanced Orchestra where 
>there are gads of different attacks and 
>articulations for each instrument.  It seems 
>like the pieces are there to build a plausibly 
>realistic sounding line...but it also seems 
>like since they are all in different patches 
>that it would require many different midi 
>channels to achieve this..a trill on one 
>channel, a half step slur on another, 
>section slides on another and of course 
>that one octave run...it could go on like this 
>until you didn't have any midi channels 
>left...what are you guys doing?  
>
>I recently bought the Quantum Leap Rare 
>instruments library for Akai...it was originally 
>programed for Gigasampler using a lot of 
>key-switching and as a result was very 
>"user friendly" So... the low Irish Whistle  
>was a single 95 meg patch in 
>gigasampler...In the akai version it's about 
>30 different programs ...I understand the 
>reasoning behind this programming...but 
>my destination is the EXS and fat programs 
>aren't a problem if you have the ram.  Is 
>key=switching  something peculiar to 
>Gigasampler...or is that something that I 
>could recreate in the EXS....Or... please 
>send me to someplace where these 
>questions are more appropriate.  Thanks
>
>julie
>-- 
>
>_______________________________________________
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ww.getpennytalk.com
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>
>
>
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>exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
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> 
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>
>
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Re: [exs] OT using sample libraries

2001-12-07 by Eli Krantzberg

HELP@... wrote:

> I agree with your perspective. -Jer
>
> Julie wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> > I think there is something wrong with my
> > paradym about using sample libraries.
> > Take one like Advanced Orchestra where
> > there are gads of different attacks and
> > articulations for each instrument.  It seems
> > like the pieces are there to build a plausibly
> > realistic sounding line...but it also seems
> > like since they are all in different patches
> > that it would require many different midi
> > channels to achieve this..a trill on one
> > channel, a half step slur on another,
> > section slides on another and of course
> > that one octave run...it could go on like this
> > until you didn't have any midi channels
> > left...what are you guys doing?
>

I also agree and find this a conceptual problem which seems to impose severly
inelegant ways of working on us. Very unintuitive. How _do_ other people handle
this sort of thing?  Another thing about the Akai extraction of the Advanced
Orchestra library is that it creates a ton of sub folders each having just one
program in it (along with either a slimmed down or mono version).


--
Eli Krantzberg
Nightshift Orchestra / Almat Productions
http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com

Re: [exs] OT using sample libraries

2001-12-07 by Rubber Chicken Software Co.

At 10:07 PM 12/7/01 +0800, you wrote:

>I think there is something wrong with my
>paradym about using sample libraries.
>Take one like Advanced Orchestra where
>there are gads of different attacks and
>articulations for each instrument.  It seems
>like the pieces are there to build a plausibly
>realistic sounding line...but it also seems
>like since they are all in different patches
>that it would require many different midi
>channels to achieve this..a trill on one
>channel, a half step slur on another,
>section slides on another and of course
>that one octave run...it could go on like this
>until you didn't have any midi channels
>left...what are you guys doing?

It's also difficult to use the Akai simply because of the 12-character 
naming. It inhibits me, at least.

Eric answered this very well - I agree.

>I recently bought the Quantum Leap Rare
>instruments library for Akai...it was originally
>programed for Gigasampler using a lot of
>key-switching and as a result was very
>"user friendly" So... the low Irish Whistle
>was a single 95 meg patch in
>gigasampler...In the akai version it's about
>30 different programs ...I understand the
>reasoning behind this programming...but
>my destination is the EXS and fat programs
>aren't a problem if you have the ram.  Is
>key=switching  something peculiar to
>Gigasampler...or is that something that I
>could recreate in the EXS....Or... please
>send me to someplace where these
>questions are more appropriate.  Thanks

Really, all key-switching is, is the ability to "turn off" a sample with 
some type of controller. Mod Wheel, MIDI note (note on or note off), 
velocity value, pedal, whatever. The term "turn off" could describe 
lowering the amplitude to zero, or literally removing the sample reference 
from the "program." Then there's the issue of "if the amplitude is zero, 
does the playback engine remove the note from voice allocation?" - just to 
confuse things...

Most samplers allow some form of "key switching," if you take this broad 
approach. Take a mod wheel and bring it up to take out a sample and bring 
in another. But the Giga - and especially HALion - take this concept and 
address it specifically. The very ability to turn a sample or groups of 
samples off and on with a on-off switch (compared to a continuous 
controller with 0-127 values) - and the most obvious on and off switch is 
the keyboard MIDI notes themselves - is very powerful. Especially with your 
topic of temporary articulations.

(I should note at this juncture, for the glee of former and present Ensoniq 
owners (Jer?), that the Ensoniq EPS and ASR samplers did this a long time 
ago with the patch select buttons. It a shame that the very idea of patch 
select buttons as a standard controller feature wasn't picked up and done 
by other companies. To me, it's clumsy to think of hitting keys on the 
keyboard (which intuitively are supposed to make sound) to change the 
settings of a patch. Better to do it with dedicated buttons.)

HALion, with their Mega-Trigg, really expounded the concept of turning 
samples, voices, and references on and off with any controller. There's a 
wider variety to choose from than Giga, and you have three levels, with 
boolean AND/OR decisions. Beautiful implementation. I'm really looking at 
EXS and Giga to respond to this.



Garth Hjelte
Sampler User

Re: [exs] OT using sample libraries

2001-12-07 by yael

I also agree and find this a conceptual problem which seems to impose
severly
inelegant ways of working on us. Very unintuitive. How _do_ other people
handle
this sort of thing?  Another thing about the Akai extraction of the Advanced
Orchestra library is that it creates a ton of sub folders each having just
one
program in it (along with either a slimmed down or mono version).
************
I always listen to EVERY programs one by one !!
It is VERY important to know perfectly the sounds we got...
and I do a selection, not usefull to convert every Volume...
M2Coins
Igor

EXS file limit?

2001-12-07 by Henrik Ahlgren

I have a SampleCell library that is quite vast (50Gb and >200.000 files). I
made aliases of it and put in the "Sampler Instruments" folder in the Logic
folder. It has worked fine until I added a couple of more files to the
library.

Now I can“t get any instruments to load into EXS24. The instruments get
converted from SC as usual, but then there is only the initial lines where
the name of the instrument should show up, and only the init sine wave is
sounding.

When I remove a couple of aliases it works fine again. It seems like there
is a limit of how many files EXS24 can keep track of. Is this a bug or a
feature? Mac OS related maybe? Is there a workaround?

Cheers / Henrik

Re: [exs] OT using sample libraries

2001-12-09 by Sascha Franck

Not that this would cure the problems Julie described, but very often I find
it extremely handy to merge different programs into one and divide them in
octaves.
So, let's say you have two string patches, one legato, one pizzicato. I
would then just open both of them in the EXS editor, do a "Select All" in
one patch copy themn to the other patch. In the target patch I do then use
the "Shift selected zones left/right (inc. root key)" command to divide
them.
Sure this requires a relatively large master keyboard but it often made my
work way more easier.

I know, not a perfect solution though - multitimbrality and an option to
simultaneously use more than one virtual instrument in realtime would help
quite a bit more.

Regards,
Sascha

Re: [exs] OT using sample libraries

2001-12-09 by Julie Larson

Thanks Sascha,

your wrote-
multitimbrality and an option to 
simultaneously use more than one virtual 
instrument in realtime would help quite a 
bit more.


Complete agreement there.  I read a thread 
in the archives (from a couple of months 
back) about using Halion inside of 
Logic...Is everyone still having a negative 
experience with this or could this be a 
viable "work around" for the EXS's lack of 
multitembral instruments?  Is Logic 5 going 
to be fully VST 2.0 compatable?  

Julie



> Not that this would cure the problems 
Julie described, but very often I find
> it extremely handy to merge different 
programs into one and divide them in
> octaves.
> So, let's say you have two string patches, 
one legato, one pizzicato. I
> would then just open both of them in the 
EXS editor, do a "Select All" in
> one patch copy themn to the other patch. 
In the target patch I do then use
> the "Shift selected zones left/right (inc. 
root key)" command to divide
> them.
> Sure this requires a relatively large 
master keyboard but it often made my
> work way more easier.
> 
> I know, not a perfect solution though - 
multitimbrality and an option to
> simultaneously use more than one virtual 
instrument in realtime would help
> quite a bit more.
> 
> Regards,
> Sascha
> 
> 

-- 

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Re: [exs] OT using sample libraries

2001-12-09 by Colin Shapiro

Julie wrote:
>  I read a thread
>in the archives (from a couple of months
>back) about using Halion inside of
>Logic...Is everyone still having a negative
>experience with this or could this be a
>viable "work around" for the EXS's lack of
>multitembral instruments?  Is Logic 5 going
>to be fully VST 2.0 compatable?

Emagic said 5.x would have  "Support of audio instruments' individual 
outputs" so at least that's a start.

Markus Fritze of Emagic wrote:
>Logic 5.0 is now feature complete. So no more new features will be
>implemented in 5.0.0. Everything from now on will be in a later release.

So, it may not be January 7th, but it'll be soon.......

Regards - Colin

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