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Issues trying to replace HD in an Emax I

Issues trying to replace HD in an Emax I

2014-05-08 by Zlox

I'm looking to replace some faulty Miniscribes in a couple of Emaxes I own (2 HD SE & 1 HD). I've read HD replacement posts in various forums over the years, and I think I have a decent handle on the basics and what drives should work. I'm also pretty technical so in general I know what I'm doing. ;p

I previously tried a 105 meg Quantum ProDrive LPS that I pulled from my own Mac IIcx before I sold it. Once in the Emax, it formatted properly and I was in the process of restoring all my banks from floppy when somewhere around the 24th bank or so it started making a louder than normal clicking noise (almost grinding) and eventually the Emax couldn't read it anymore. I messed about with it for a few more hours, reformatted, changed jumper settings etc. but never got it to successfully format or work again. FWIW, that drive had been working fine since the day I bought it new around '90-91 right up until I put it in the Emax. I still have it and maybe I just didn't have it configured properly, but I thought the noise to be pretty suspect and have since moved on to another drive.

I just purchased an IBM WDS L-80meg scsi drive and despite a few jumper questions that I'll get to in a minute, it formatted to near-completion, but as soon as it tried to load bank 01 Untitled I got the dreaded "Hard Disk Error" message and it locked up. Had to reboot to the floppy and then I tried an HD Scan, which reported every bank had errors and it couldn't fix them. Attempts to reformat have failed.

So I am now questioning some of the jumper settings, termination, drive compatibility and operator error. I feel pretty confident I've correctly set the SCSI ID to 0, but I can't confirm the termination settings on the drive.

The hard drive's controller board doesn't quite match the settings diagrams I found for this particular model.

Going by the diagrams referenced above for the option block, it shows 13 pins (pin 7 not present) however on my drive there IS a pin 7. I initially ignored this as I assumed its presence didn't mean it would be used and if I didn't attempt to jump pins 7 &; 8 if figured there'd be no harm. Perhaps this is nothing but I mention it just in case.

I wasn't sure if the "Auto Spin Up Enable" option (jumping pins 9 & 10) was necessary, but it was set initially so I installed/formatted the drive that way the first time. After the failure I removed the jumper to see if it behaved differently w/ the Auto Spin Up off but wasn't able to successfully format the drive this way either.

So the next issue is the termination. I'm using the original SCSI cable that came with the Emax which is only a single-device cable; I'm not sure if it's terminated by virtue of the fact that there's no additional connection on the cable or if the drive requires some explicit termination. The problem is that while the diagram referenced above shows some terminating resistor(s) & jumper options, the controller board on my drive doesn't have anything that resembles jumpers, terminating resistors or even holes for resistors anywhere near the region in the diagram labeled T-Res & J.

Unfortunately, I no longer have any computer that will take a SCSI drive to do any testing outside the Emax.

So my questions are:

- Does the IBM drive meet the basic specs for compatibility?
- Does the extra pin 7 on the option block jumpers raise any red flags?
- Do I need to explicitly terminate it and if so, any suggestions on how I figure out where the resistors/jumpers are?

I've RTFMed and Googled extensively over the past few days and am running out of ideas. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jim


Re: [emax] Issues trying to replace HD in an Emax I

2014-05-08 by Ted Summers

Auto Enable spin up jumper should be on.
In regards to TERM resistors- it says at the bottom of one of your linked pages "not all drives have termination resistors" or some such.

If you can post a pic of the HD controller board to the group files section or mail me directly then I can likely tell you if term is there.
(you can't put pics inline on emails to the group)

The other solution to termination concerns is to pull the term jumper and get an internal cable with termination (active is best).
At that point- you could rule out termination as the possible issue if it still fails.

Hope that helps,
Ted

Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Zlox <xeelox@...> wrote:

I'm looking to replace some faulty Miniscribes in a couple of Emaxes I own (2 HD SE & 1 HD). I've read HD replacement posts in various forums over the years, and I think I have a decent handle on the basics and what drives should work. I'm also pretty technical so in general I know what I'm doing. ;p

I previously tried a 105 meg Quantum ProDrive LPS that I pulled from my own Mac IIcx before I sold it. Once in the Emax, it formatted properly and I was in the process of restoring all my banks from floppy when somewhere around the 24th bank or so it started making a louder than normal clicking noise (almost grinding) and eventually the Emax couldn't read it anymore. I messed about with it for a few more hours, reformatted, changed jumper settings etc. but never got it to successfully format or work again. FWIW, that drive had been working fine since the day I bought it new around '90-91 right up until I put it in the Emax. I still have it and maybe I just didn't have it configured properly, but I thought the noise to be pretty suspect and have since moved on to another drive.

I just purchased an IBM WDS L-80meg scsi drive and despite a few jumper questions that I'll get to in a minute, it formatted to near-completion, but as soon as it tried to load bank 01 Untitled I got the dreaded "Hard Disk Error" message and it locked up. Had to reboot to the floppy and then I tried an HD Scan, which reported every bank had errors and it couldn't fix them. Attempts to reformat have failed.

So I am now questioning some of the jumper settings, termination, drive compatibility and operator error. I feel pretty confident I've correctly set the SCSI ID to 0, but I can't confirm the termination settings on the drive.

The hard drive's controller board doesn't quite match the settings diagrams I found for this particular model.

Going by the diagrams referenced above for the option block, it shows 13 pins (pin 7 not present) however on my drive there IS a pin 7. I initially ignored this as I assumed its presence didn't mean it would be used and if I didn't attempt to jump pins 7 & 8 if figured there'd be no harm. Perhaps this is nothing but I mention it just in case.

I wasn't sure if the "Auto Spin Up Enable" option (jumping pins 9 & 10) was necessary, but it was set initially so I installed/formatted the drive that way the first time. After the failure I removed the jumper to see if it behaved differently w/ the Auto Spin Up off but wasn't able to successfully format the drive this way either.

So the next issue is the termination. I'm using the original SCSI cable that came with the Emax which is only a single-device cable; I'm not sure if it's terminated by virtue of the fact that there's no additional connection on the cable or if the drive requires some explicit termination. The problem is that while the diagram referenced above shows some terminating resistor(s) & jumper options, the controller board on my drive doesn't have anything that resembles jumpers, terminating resistors or even holes for resistors anywhere near the region in the diagram labeled T-Res & J.

Unfortunately, I no longer have any computer that will take a SCSI drive to do any testing outside the Emax.

So my questions are:

- Does the IBM drive meet the basic specs for compatibility?
- Does the extra pin 7 on the option block jumpers raise any red flags?
- Do I need to explicitly terminate it and if so, any suggestions on how I figure out where the resistors/jumpers are?

I've RTFMed and Googled extensively over the past few days and am running out of ideas. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jim



Re: Issues trying to replace HD in an Emax I

2014-05-09 by xeelox@...

Thanks for your reply Ted.

I did see the part that said "Not all models will have terminating resistors. In cases where there is no termination, an in-line terminator will be required" but still couldn't locate where adding my own terminator would go. None of the holes I saw looked right to me, but I concede I don't really know what I'm looking for.

Hopefully the photos will help. I created an album called IBM WDS L80 HD here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/emax/photos/albums/428384323

Thanks again for your assistance,
Jim

Re: [emax] Re: Issues trying to replace HD in an Emax I

2014-05-09 by Ted Summers

I do not see any evidence of the resistor networks or even networks that look like an IC on this controller board.

So leave any jumper labeled termination off, and terminate it externally to be sure.

-T


On May 8, 2014, at 8:17 PM, <xeelox@...> wrote:

Thanks for your reply Ted.


I did see the part that said "Not all models will have terminating resistors. In cases where there is no termination, an in-line terminator will be required" but still couldn't locate where adding my own terminator would go. None of the holes I saw looked right to me, but I concede I don't really know what I'm looking for.

Hopefully the photos will help. I created an album called IBM WDS L80 HD here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/emax/photos/albums/428384323

Thanks again for your assistance,
Jim


Re: Issues trying to replace HD in an Emax I

2014-05-09 by xeelox@...

>> So leave any jumper labeled termination off, and terminate it externally to be sure

I guess that won't be a problem as I couldn't find a jumper, or anything else for that matter, labeled termination on that controller. Did you?

And just to be sure I understand your suggestion, I should remove the single-device scsi ribbon cable I currently have (where the drive is already the last item in the chain), replace it with a 2 device cable (connecting the drive to the 1st connection) AND then affix an active terminator to the last drive connection. Correct?

Something like this...
SCSI IDS 50 Male Internal Active Terminator
SCSI IDS 50 Male Internal Active Terminator
SCSI IDS 50 Male Internal Active Terminator - IDC 50 MALE Internal Active SCSI Terminator for Terminating SCSI-II IDC-50 Ribbon Cables fully molded
View on www.trianglecables...
Preview by Yahoo


Thanks again,
Jim

Re: [emax] Re: Issues trying to replace HD in an Emax I

2014-05-09 by Ted Summers

correct, or you can get a cable often times that already has the terminator permanently attached to the end (this prevents it coming loos).

-T
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, xeelox@... [emax] <emax@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>> So leave any jumper labeled termination off, and terminate it externally to be sure

I guess that won't be a problem as I couldn't find a jumper, or anything else for that matter, labeled termination on that controller. Did you?

And just to be sure I understand your suggestion, I should remove the single-device scsi ribbon cable I currently have (where the drive is already the last item in the chain), replace it with a 2 device cable (connecting the drive to the 1st connection) AND then affix an active terminator to the last drive connection. Correct?

Something like this...
SCSI IDS 50 Male Internal Active Terminator
SCSI IDS 50 Male Internal Active Terminator
SCSI IDS 50 Male Internal Active Terminator - IDC 50 MALE Internal Active SCSI Terminator for Terminating SCSI-II IDC-50 Ribbon Cables fully molded
Preview by Yahoo


Thanks again,
Jim


Re: Issues trying to replace HD in an Emax I

2014-05-17 by xeelox@...

Ok, so I got a cable with an active terminator and all that happens when I try to format the drive now is that it's been stuck on the step "Saving Bank... 01 Untitled" for close to an hour. Removing the terminator and it goes back to the previous behavior of giving the hard disk error at the end of the format.

I also got my hands on a 1gb Quantum FRBLS 655 -0141 that has an Apple logo on it so I assume it was pulled from a Mac. ...and it won't format either. Exact same symptoms as the initial attempts with the IBM drive and my pervious Quantum from my own Mac--hard disk error.

So if it's not termination, then what else could it be?

- Could it be drive incompatibility in all 3 cases?
- Could it be a problem w/ the SCSI controller in the Emax itself?

Thanks,
Jim

Re: [emax] Re: Issues trying to replace HD in an Emax I

2014-05-18 by Ted Summers

Not sure on this one- ;I've never heard of an Emax 1 shipping with larger than a 40MB…I know people in the Emax community have found drives which did not work….

I found this link for the drive you have:

It details SCSI-2 interface.
The detail at that link also indicate that the drive has active termination on board.
So if you have a terminator and basically double terminate that can be a problem.
What I can't tell from your pics or other pics of that drive is where the actual term resistor / jumper are.

Emax is SCSI-1. There are cases where Flash media drives that are SCSI-2 / SCSI-3 do not work with Emax, it is possible this is the case here as the command set for the drive control is changed from SCSI 1 to SCSI 2 and onward.

But I can't be 100%. There is conflicting data on this one- there is also documentation that says it is SCSI-1, but those docs clearly show there is a terminating resistor pack and jumpers right next to it by the SCSI connector- clearly not the case in your pics….

I am beginning to think there are 2 revisions of the drive- SCSI 1 with the expected term resistors and jumpers and a later revision with SCSI 2, and SMT resistor elsewhere on the board with a SMT device as the jumper on / off.



-- Ted





On May 17, 2014, at 4:37 PM, xeelox@... [emax] wrote:

Ok, so I got a cable with an active terminator and all that happens when I try to format the drive now is that it's been stuck on the step "Saving Bank... 01 Untitled" for close to an hour. Removing the terminator and it goes back to the previous behavior of giving the hard disk error at the end of the format.


I also got my hands on a 1gb Quantum FRBLS 655 -0141 that has an Apple logo on it so I assume it was pulled from a Mac. ...and it won't format either. Exact same symptoms as the initial attempts with the IBM drive and my pervious Quantum from my own Mac--hard disk error.

So if it's not termination, then what else could it be?

- Could it be drive incompatibility in all 3 cases?
- Could it be a problem w/ the SCSI controller in the Emax itself?

Thanks,
Jim


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