Datacolor User to User Support Group.

Hello,

I just received my new PrintFIX Pro Suite and will be profiling my
little hart out in the coming weeks.

I use an Epson 2200 with OEM Ultra Chrome inks and this is my latest
workflow: AdobeRGB Raw > CaptureOne LE > Photoshop CS2 > Qimage

As I understand it, you typically profile Ink / Paper / Print
Resolution combinations such as in this permutation:

    Ultra Chrome / Ilford Smooth Pearl / 1400 PPI

Do I also need to do permutations based on rendering intent and the
use of black point compensation?

    Ultra Chrome / Ilford Smooth Pearl / 1400 PPI / Relative -
    Colorimetric / Black Point

Any tips or suggestion to get started would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Pierre

Hi Pierre,

You have the correct idea.
You do not choose intent when making the profile this is done 
afterward when printing. (You can print the test image in a ring a 
round with the different intents to see what difference it makes.  
But this is done with a single profile.)
Go ahead print the targets, allow to dry, and measure.  Then create a 
straight profile (without sliders), try it our and see where you 
are.  I usually use relative colorimetric with black point when 
printing unless I have a bunch of colors whice are out of gamut and 
then I will use perceptual.
Have fun

Paul

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "ve2caz" <ve2caz@...> wrote:

>
> Hello,
> 
> I just received my new PrintFIX Pro Suite and will be profiling my
> little hart out in the coming weeks.
> 
> I use an Epson 2200 with OEM Ultra Chrome inks and this is my latest
> workflow: AdobeRGB Raw > CaptureOne LE > Photoshop CS2 > Qimage
> 
> As I understand it, you typically profile Ink / Paper / Print
> Resolution combinations such as in this permutation:
> 
>     Ultra Chrome / Ilford Smooth Pearl / 1400 PPI
> 
> Do I also need to do permutations based on rendering intent and the
> use of black point compensation?
> 
>     Ultra Chrome / Ilford Smooth Pearl / 1400 PPI / Relative -
>     Colorimetric / Black Point
> 
> Any tips or suggestion to get started would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> Pierre
>

the last few days i have been frustrated with a continuing problem with 
my printer and error messages. in the middle of error messages i was 
able to get some prints out successfully but with color disasters. just 
now i have finally gotten the printer working without errors but the 
colors remain off from the intended soft proof appearing in Photoshop. 
i had one test print prove to resemble the soft proof this morning but 
all subsequent tests have resulted in yellowish prints. after three of 
these i remembered others here commenting on the same thing. it is a 
clear yellow cast across the entire image. i am baffled at how tests on 
the same paper and inks (MIS) could result in this amount of variance 
for the day. i must note that i also had a red cast this morning. i 
finally re-profiled and made a fresh profile with fine results, but now 
it appears the profile has corrupted again. it is strange to say the 
least. i have noticed 'drift' in the profiles i have made since i 
started using PFP. all the profiles i made, from plain paper to 
enhanced matte, for both my printers (7600 and C84) now generate 
inaccurate prints from the soft proof, something that was fine at the 
time i made the original profiles.

not sure what is going on.

ghi

Yesterday, while working to resolve various oddities in my output i 
decided to run some profiles and doing so i printed out a few targets. 
in the midst of these target prints i got one that printed out very 
different from the rest i have ever printed. i went back to my original 
targets i printed when i first got the PFP package to make comparisons.

what i found was that pretty much all the targets printed (225) were 
pretty much the same, with color swatches very dark and saturated. i 
looked at the swatches on a variety of papers i did in weeks past and 
all seemed the same in color. then yesterday i printed a target again 
and is was noticably different. it was far lighter and had an amazing 
resemblance to the idealized target displayed in the software 
interface. now this morning i have just printed off 2 more targets 
(same settings and paper) and i am back to the original darker and 
saturated output which make up the majority of my targets.

ghi

>the last few days i have been frustrated with a continuing problem with
>my printer and error messages. in the middle of error messages i was
>able to get some prints out successfully but with color disasters. just
>now i have finally gotten the printer working without errors but the
>colors remain off from the intended soft proof appearing in Photoshop.
>i had one test print prove to resemble the soft proof this morning but
>all subsequent tests have resulted in yellowish prints. after three of
>these i remembered others here commenting on the same thing. it is a
>clear yellow cast across the entire image. i am baffled at how tests on
>the same paper and inks (MIS) could result in this amount of variance
>for the day. i must note that i also had a red cast this morning. i
>finally re-profiled and made a fresh profile with fine results, but now
>it appears the profile has corrupted again. it is strange to say the
>least. i have noticed 'drift' in the profiles i have made since i
>started using PFP. all the profiles i made, from plain paper to
>enhanced matte, for both my printers (7600 and C84) now generate
>inaccurate prints from the soft proof, something that was fine at the
>time i made the original profiles.
>
>not sure what is going on.

Ghi:

It has to be your printer. Profiles don't corrupt, or change, after you've
build them. If you print through a given profile one day, and then see
color shifts, yellowish casts, red casts, etc. when you print through the
same profile another day (assuming that all other things are equal: that
you're using the same driver settings when you print through the profile);
then your printer is behaving inconsistently.

And if your printer is inconsistent, then things are never going to be
stable. Let's say that you wake up this morning, everything was printing
fine yesteray, but today: there's a red cast. (Note: this shouldn't happen!
assuming that you haven't touched the printer, changed the inks, switched
to a different batch of the same paper). But let's say that it does, for
whatever reason.

You reprofile, the new profile now makes up for the red cast, but the next
day, or later in the afternoon, the printer shifts again, using profile #2.
You could keep trying to catch up with the printer forever.

The key here is making sure that a) you're using the same profile, and b)
all of the driver settings you're using to print through the profile are
consistent. If they are: then the printer should be stable, as long as you
don't switch inks or papers.

If the printer isn't stable, then you can always "fix" it by reprofiling
(which is a good side-effect of having PFP); but instability would mean that
the color would keep going "off", and you'd have to catch this and then profile
again (a bad situation, which shouldn't be happening).

There should not be that amount of variance, and if there is, then something
is wrong with the printer or inks.

-- 
David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision

>Yesterday, while working to resolve various oddities in my output i
>decided to run some profiles and doing so i printed out a few targets.
>in the midst of these target prints i got one that printed out very
>different from the rest i have ever printed. i went back to my original
>targets i printed when i first got the PFP package to make comparisons.
>
>what i found was that pretty much all the targets printed (225) were
>pretty much the same, with color swatches very dark and saturated. i
>looked at the swatches on a variety of papers i did in weeks past and
>all seemed the same in color. then yesterday i printed a target again
>and is was noticably different. it was far lighter and had an amazing
>resemblance to the idealized target displayed in the software
>interface.

That would mean that (probably by accident) you printed the target with
color managment turned ON (enabled) in the printer driver.

That would be a problem...:-) If you print the target that way; measure;
build a profile; and then print through the profile the "right" way
(with color management turned off). The profile will end up doing very
little if it's based on measurements taken from "calibrated" output through
the driver's standard color management settings, and the result would
be a print that would be very close to "uncalibrated".

>now this morning i have just printed off 2 more targets
>(same settings and paper) and i am back to the original darker and
>saturated output which make up the majority of my targets.

That's what your target prints should look like: dark and saturated.

If you're printing them on the same paper, and with (theoretically) the
same inks, then there should be almost no measurable difference between
any of them. You could try using the Measure tool in PFP 1.1.1 to measure
the a few of the same patches, from one target to the next; write the
Lab numbers down and see if, for instance, the "primary" color patches,
which will be the most saturated: 1E, 5A, 5E, 6F, 6J, 10F; measure consistently
across multiple targets. You shouldn't see a difference of more than 1 or
2 points in any of the Lab components, otherwise, the printer is shifting
between target prints.



Best regards,

-- 
David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision

>
>
>  That would be a problem...:-) If you print the target that way; 
> measure;
>  build a profile; and then print through the profile the "right" way
>  (with color management turned off). The profile will end up doing very
>  little if it's based on measurements taken from "calibrated" output 
> through
>  the driver's standard color management settings, and the result would
>  be a print that would be very close to "uncalibrated".


Hey David, yes i think that i did accidentally have 'no color 
management' unchecked during one of the target prints. i shoulda 
thought of it before i sent the email to you :P. it came to me the 
moment i hit the send button.

as for the printer being the problem...

i went at problem solving once again this morning (the moment i 
finished my coffee)... and, to my amazement, everything was working 
again. there were no errors or printer issues, so a decided to print a 
couple new color swatches, did two readings and used the resulting ICC 
profiles, tried the profiles out and got a good print! your

i think what is happening is that i'm getting corruption in the print 
spooler. this is resulting in a bad file being sent to the printer and 
it clogs up the cache and makes everything screwy. i reinstalled all 
print drivers after trashing every printer driver and associated prefs 
i could find.

thanks for the help once again :)

ghi

>>  That would be a problem...:-) If you print the target that way; measure;
>>  build a profile; and then print through the profile the "right" way
>>  (with color management turned off). The profile will end up doing very
>>  little if it's based on measurements taken from "calibrated" output through
>>  the driver's standard color management settings, and the result would
>>  be a print that would be very close to "uncalibrated".
>
>
>Hey David, yes i think that i did accidentally have 'no color 
>management' unchecked during one of the target prints. i shoulda 
>thought of it before i sent the email to you :P. it came to me the 
>moment i hit the send button.
>
>as for the printer being the problem...

No problem..:-)

This has happened to people from time to time; I wish there was just
a way to have a "color managment in the driver on/off" control -outside-
of the printer drivers, so that nobody would have to remember to push
the proper buttons on the inside of the driver, or even know that they're
there.

But: there isn't...

>i went at problem solving once again this morning (the moment i 
>finished my coffee)... and, to my amazement, everything was working 
>again. there were no errors or printer issues, so a decided to print 
>a couple new color swatches, did two readings and used the resulting 
>ICC profiles, tried the profiles out and got a good print!


That sounds better!

>
>i think what is happening is that i'm getting corruption in the 
>print spooler. this is resulting in a bad file being sent to the 
>printer and it clogs up the cache and makes everything screwy. i 
>reinstalled all print drivers after trashing every printer driver 
>and associated prefs i could find.
>
>thanks for the help once again :)

You're welcome! Let's see if things run consistently for you now. if you're
right, that would make it a "digital" problem (bad data being sent to the
printer), although I'm still puzzled as to how that could happen or produce
the kinds of results you're talking about.

I was thinking more along the lines of "analog" problems: such as, the ink
not being delivered consistently, head clogs, etc. I suppose we'll see...


Best regards,


-- 
David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Ghi Stecyk <ghiangelo@...> wrote:

> i think what is happening is that i'm getting corruption in the print 
> spooler. this is resulting in a bad file being sent to the printer and 
> it clogs up the cache and makes everything screwy. i reinstalled all 
> print drivers after trashing every printer driver and associated prefs 
> i could find.

If it's not the above problem my bet is, as David mentioned, an ink delivery problem. If the 
first few prints are good and subsequent are not there could be clog or a vacuum problem in 
one or more of the lines.

What printers are you having problems with?

On 1-Oct-06, at 7:07 AM, John Vitollo wrote:
>
>  If it's not the above problem my bet is, as David mentioned, an ink 
> delivery problem. If the
>  first few prints are good and subsequent are not there could be clog 
> or a vacuum problem in
>  one or more of the lines.
>
>  What printers are you having problems with?


hi John,

i'm using a 2 year old Epson 7600, Mac Os X drivers using a G5. all the 
test prints and nozzle checks are clear, no banding problems either. 
the reason i say there is a spooling problem is that ever since i got 
the printer i periodically would have strange prints come out of it, 
usually after an episode of a 'command error' message ( a command error 
is said to occur if the data being sent to the printer is damaged 
somehow, or a confusion with the appropriate print driver occurs). the 
other day i was plagued with these errors and i always notice that once 
i am able to make a print after a spat with an error alert shutdown the 
subsequent print has color issues, and at times banding problems (not 
the sort of banding associated with clogs but the kind that look to be 
part of the print file). sometimes these prints shoot out of the 
printer at 360 dpi instead of the intended 1440 dpi put into the 
printer dialogues. i think these things are indicative of print 
spooling errors. i don't like the fact this is happening since it can 
ruin the printing process and waste paper.

ghi

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, Ghi Stecyk <ghiangelo@...> wrote:
>
> i'm using a 2 year old Epson 7600, Mac Os X drivers using a G5. all the 
> test prints and nozzle checks are clear, no banding problems either. 
> the reason i say there is a spooling problem is that ever since i got 
> the printer i periodically would have strange prints come out of it, 

OK...looks like the last OS update -10.4.8- fixes some printing issues. Might help your 
situation.

Do you run maintenance programs regularly like Cocktail, Cache Out X or AppleJack to purge 
caches?

Hi, 

Welcome back and thanks for your report on Zeta HP printers.

You are correct of course, as I have proved to myself by measuring 
max density of a step wedge printed through a profile with black 
point checked.  My question.  Most color gurus I have read almost 
always suggest black point compensation be checked.  Why?  If I print 
with perceptual it doesn't seem to make a difference.  (I have heard 
that BPC doesn't apply to perceptual rendering, but it is there to be 
checked or unchecked.)  Would appreciate your explanation about these 
issues.

Paul

> PrintFIX PRO profiles are RGB to RGB, so blacks in images are 
defined as 0, 
> 0, 0. Any changes via Black Point Compensation can only make this 
number 
> higher, not lower. So BPC can weaken your blacks, but it can't 
strengthen them. Keep 

> that in mind when choosing it!
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
>