Vintage Simmons Drums (UK) Users Group

Patrice, reading your text and looking at domain name
your mail are sent from seems somewhat ironic J

 >ha ?not sure to see what you mean, don't hesitate to pm me. No ironic intended in my  message ;)

From collectors point of view one could argue that the
original schematics are more valuable than the SDX itself, as it most likely are
more rare. Therefore it should never ever be copied as it could hurt the
collector value J

>mmm not my concern at all, don't worry about that...

But my serious thoughts on the matter. To my knowledge
Dave are no longer here to collect on the intellectual property of these
schematics. Nor do the new brand name owner actively supporting any of the old
gear. I don’t know if they actually own any rights other than the name? And to
my knowledge there are no longer any legal patented design luring inside these
papers. Therefore normal copyrights for printed/ published content would apply.

 > Dave is still alive mate, and had recently fought against Guitar Center who stole his name etc etc ...Hopefully for him, yes he owns all the patents.

Which mean that we are not allowed to sell copies of
our version of the schematics. Which in practical terms means any faulty SDX is
a brick if one not already have access to the schematic as Dave won’t respond
to sell you a copy.

However, in most countries in the world we will be
allowed to lend our copy to anyone of our liking. And they can legally take
copies for personal use.

> yes it's all a matter of personnal concern on that point.

>I was pointing the fact that the guy said "I won't pay for it" . Well we did mate  ;) 

>A few of us bought or swapped spares or units for that schematics.

Here in Norway a copy shop settled a case where they
tried to help out students in a pinch. What they did were to copy a book that
were out of print and sell it at normal copy price, as if the students met up
in the shop and copied it them self. What initially gave them trouble where
they for practical reason had them in stock (this before scan and print on demand
where available).

Reason they got away with it where that the copy right
holder had no plans to reprint the book and the university had made the bummer
to include the book in the students required reading list for that semester.
Low volume, for education reason only, no danger of repetition as university
removed the requirement and practical thinking won the case.

So practical thinking applied. If one where to sell
schematics for profit one could be in danger of being sued for money from copy
right holder. If there are no money to be had then documented loss are to be
taken into consideration. Personally I don’t think SDX have much to offer
regarding hardware design worth copying these days of low cost DSP chips. Not
really being a blockbuster movie I really doubt anyone interested in this
schematic are able to hurt Simmons brand owner or Dave in an attempt to copy
and sell this design. Interested parties either own a unit in need of repair,
or are interested for education purposes. Both I personally think we should
endorse to help keep an historic piece of electronic kit alive, and help
educating members of the world can only make it better place for all of us moving
on to an enlightening future.

 > Not sure it's comparable but ok I hear you.

Now, should we assume everyone have the time or even
want to scan and upload 140 pages long manual for free? Of course not. Some
members here and other forums that have access to these schematics make they
living from repair jobs. Of course they should not work for free. Some of them
even get so annoyed by these requests they stop they’re membership. Other learn
to live with it course they benefit from those sharing to keep they own cost
down and make better profits on the jobs they do get.

How many SDX jobs would a repair shop in 2017 expect
to see over the next decade? Probably zero, other than the one sitting on the
bench right now. All documentation cost has to go into this job alone.

> yep for sure...

Many
repair shops would tell the customer schematic are not available, but they’re
willing to take on the job if customer source it themselves. Shortcut to any
ethical concern right? And a valid reason for many people joining mailing lists and
forums with requests they normally wouldn’t attend.

So who are these requester for free Simmons schematics
and sounds? Back in the day most of them probably where people making partial or
all their livelihood from expensive tools like the SDS and SDX. Modern sounds
and schematics had intellectual value that Dave used to put food on his table. That
is not the case anymore.

> well in term of expensiveness and rareness, SDX is far beyond the SDS range..Closer to the Emulator range (for example) than the quite succesfull SDS range...

>I leave you judge of what gives food on Dave's table today. not really our problem.

>For example, Respect of Simmons team work and engineer creativity are still strong considerations for him. 

These days most requests come from collectors, hobbyist
and wannabees in a world where musicians rarely can make a living from
recording music. Any high functional professional musician actually making
money these days use a sampling library or simulator to create these vintage
sounds.

 > not sure about that... ;) you'd be surprised. but it's not false .

My impression there are several contributing members on
this list that have reservation regarding sharing publicly. If they lost business
by sharing I can understand they hurt, but if that business where selling
Simmons original sounds they’re morality is somewhat flawed if you ask me.

> well the group has been quite generous and helped many people here.

>I think it all depends sharing what and how. And with who and for what purpose...We all had some more or less painful examples.

My practical take on this. I’ve enjoyed numerus free
websites and schematics over the past two decades. Admittedly only a few of
them had they’re Donate button pressed I early on got inspired to share back to
the community when I could. I guess all of us have benefited from those that do
share. In some cultures one owes to them to pass on what one learned, while
others get insulted when one do as they claim intellectually property even when
its origin are not their own.

 > it's all the difference between sharing with "give and return " (that's quite human, nothing wrong in that) or just give away ... and depreciating the rare tools.

and opening the gate to speculators who takes for free,  and do their business fooling people with it ... (names and pseudos on request ;) )

Let's take it the other way... you bought some equipment at high price, bought extras for a lot of money... why should you give away what you had to pay (for a lot of money )?

it's not like sharing schematics about sds7 V 9 etc ... again, what have been quite freely done here for years now.

Why should you give what makes your units special (sounds in that case). After yes, we're all free to do what we want. We also can think of direct or undirect consequences... we can also swap stuff together.

but I don't think that sounds are free for samplers. we're not in the "plug in" world where we consider normal to crack everything we can.

People who keeps some vintage equipment to use them, it's all bc they are unique. if you spread away stuff , sounds etc ... then it's not unique anymore. you're firing a bullet to your own foot. Why keeping some very special units  with all the heavy process of maintenance etc , if you don't protect them and ready to convert all the special sounds to wave format for example ...etc ... That's stupid . especially that this library is exceptional in the unit but quite a pale image of it as WAV samples...but yeah that's another story.  
SDX users should be conscious that it will stay unique if we protect it, it will become an empty box if we don't.

Example that guy on Ebay who claims he has the right to sell SDX library sample WAV copies bc he owns or owned an SDX.  No he clearly doesn't !

After it doesn't stop us to trade stuff between us to keep alive the remaining units. that's diferent.

So to you question Patrice, I guess to each his own https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/to_each_his_own 

I will bluntly take this opportunity to ask if anyone are
willing share SDS7 original eprom BIN files with me?

> imho that's ok to me... I'd share that bc it's a part of the machine,

I wouldn't share the SDX library I paid  for bc :

it's a sampler. basically an empty machine depending on how you gonna feed it.

A sampler is basically valuable by its library. If it's empty it's useless. Garbage in Garbage out.

if you use great sounds then it's using full potential of the beautiful design of these beasts... old or not ...

Personnaly I'm ok to pay to keep it unique.

I promise never to make a No.1 hit song using these
sounds (or any other sound for that matter)

>  :) ... If you can no problem help yourself mate !! (no Irony intended). it's been actually done in the past for many people in the late 80's and it made their fortune..

I promise I very rarely will use the sounds, they mostly
have historic value to me, I few hours of fun for recreation purposes

I promise I never Share if not explicit allowed

I promise I never Publicly Share it if not explicit
allowed

I promise If sharing is allowed I’ll give Credit Only if explicit
Requested, else you will be Anonymous

 > you don't need to promise anything. we're all free and responsible.

> we can talk about it not to convince each other but just to exchange point of views.

>thanks for your opinion Hans   take care   

>P.

Best regards

Hans

Still Not Working

Sorry, I
didn’t know Dave still where fighting for his name and intellectual property
regarding Simmons products. I haven’t picked up on his voice and opinion on any
of the major forums? Are the any links where I can read up on the topic?

>>> I'm afraid not much. Dave doesn't have time and isn't really interested into wandering on forums etc ...

  I think there's a recent interview in Digital Drummer (a few years old ) where he mentionned it. I have it somewhere if you want it. it might even be in Yahoo group files.

There are mates here who must have that for sure.

Will we see
an awakening of Simmons like Oberheim's SEM, Dave Rossum's EMU modular and alike?

>> only Dave knows that ;)

>> P
wrote: “why should you give away what you had to pay (for a lot of money) ?”

Regarding selling copies of schematics and sounds is just plain wrong, that we agree on. That might also be the reason OT stated he will not pay for it? Could it be a simple misunderstanding?

>>it could be ... no offense.

I think I'm upset by the fact that the guy "asks", "wants", but doesn't give or offer anything in return. At least , informations on his units , serial numbers , history etc ...

We're not a simmons supermarket that has any obligations to anyone. it works bc we talk, share informations, spares and eventually friendship etc... 

Dave wouldn't be realistic to spend time and resupply anything for such a small market now ...And he's not someone turned towards the past . he looks far ahead in the future.

but we're a few to have stuff we can share, sell, swap trade etc ... and we did . We have original library , and also extra one. I sometimes trade some. and rarely just refuse ^^. same for SDX schematics (all the other Simmons stuff as I said , it's been copied so much for the best and the worse sometimes, but it's definitely available. so not a problem to spread) 

In a perfect world copyright holders could say "no we don't want to sell sounds and schematics".

>>in French law, a company must let available the schematics  (for 10 years if I remember well, not sure that needs to confirmed).

If most does it, there are still companies like TC electronic or AMS Neve who don't give any schematics without special restrictive agreement to keep them in control. even on very old systems like rmx16 or sdmx etc ... you won't find that schematics on internet easily. it's annoying and I understand in the same time.

Actually most of them do but as I see it
there are only one way to fight these crimes. Make the items in demand even
more accessible to everyone, then there are no value selling illegally – other than
get payed for the physical e-prom programming or floppy disk copying.

>>I don't know what we can really do about that. but at least we can trade respecting the value of things , swapping between us or whatever.

Inviting users being in that circle. I don't know if there are more than 50 SDX units still alive these days. certainly less than 100 actually. So we're a very small comunauty.

The massive
illegal sharing of music that took place past decades has dropped drastically
in regions where music has become easily and cheaply availably. Sadly not in a
manner that got musicians payed that much more money, but now at least it’s
done legal.

> it could be a way. but musician should be re - placed at the center of what or who makes music.

that's only my opinion but otherwise it appears to stay a perverse way to consume, cut from its roots. We're going in a world when "AI" will probably do music at our place very soon just for the best benefits of a few. quite a fashionable tendancy this last years ^^.

I still want to beleive in Talent and creativity. Like a painter chooses his colours , Choice of the equipment is determinant.

Like the movie and music industry spend two decades to learn. If Dave or whomever
still own the right for the sound library and schematics put up an automated webpage
to sell this this stuff electronically that should help. Although lots of people
will try to access this stuff for free any copyright holder now have the tools
and respect in the community to make their claims and easily shut down illegal sales and sharing.

>> it's more complicated than that in Dave's case , but yes it could be a way.

Here are food for thoughts. As more people get
access to great sounding VST simulation of old vintage synthesizes and drum
machines the more valuable the original hardware gets.

>>ExactlyThat's it mate ! Everyone have access to some good stuff today , the old rare gear is the originality now. not as sophisticated as actual VSTs in many ways , but such a bigger sound on the other hand... That exactly what I meant by protecting the rarities. That would be fair if Dave would create an SDX emulation and bring back the nice sound library etc ... but really unfair  if a greedy prick just put it on Ebay in WAV format. Yes they would be available to anyone but  1)they wouldn't sound as it should, and 2) the creator would be rubbed instead of having money to make something good with the same innovating spirit.

Yes I noticed you first made the point its not the money value of SDX that concern you, but to keep it unique. I'm not sure yet where I stand when it comes to this question :)

>> do you have one ?

For me, on the paper SDX has no value today. only what people want to pay for it. it can go from 200£ to 3000£. it's completely irrational. And in the same time, it can be my first choice before any contemporary VST or 2box ddrum more easy to use.

Therefore I think that , what makes the value of each unit, is the soundbank and good state. And who will use it and how ;)... (not to mention the filters and converters of the SDX)

For some other people it's rare so it should be expensive anyway.

For me it's old and risky to use. it could be secured, but it stays a challenge. some passionate mates are working to redevelop stuff for it. like Alan about new FSR for examples. We'll see what future brings us. we all know weakness and strong points of the system, we know what to do and how to use it within the system limits.

As long it gives this hypnotic sense of creativity it seems it can trigger on people, then it's worthwhile to fight for this machine.

Anyway we are a few to actively maintain the myth alive as much as we can. Bruce and I have a massive soundbank beyond the original one, he knows very well the

system restored many units. Alain is very involved (and in love) too in research for the future... we all invested quite some money in spares, sounds, schems etc ...

If there where made 250 SDX units and only 5000 people knew about it. Is that more unique than if there where made 250 SDX units, 20.000 DSP / VST versions and 2 million people had heard about it?

by definition yes I think so ... ;) but it's not necessary the goal to keep it so unique, so no ones ever heard of it. Fact is people knew it wthout noticing what it was (Prince used it a lot on Batman's stuff, Genesis , Vangelis, Pink floyd, jmJarre etc...) but it's been a very short adventure mainly concentrated in between 1988 and 1992 ...

SDX system deserves to be redevelopped in a way or another. how the Zone Intelligent pads "zones and dynamics" can affect envelopes , Pan, Pitch, filters is unique and still ignored by most succesful manufacturers today. (only the ddrum3, Mandalas,  approached that for example)

SDX story is painted of drama, deception, fascination not to say fantasy. But in the end it's a fabulous unique sound, with unique functions the actual Edrum builder haven't necessary come through..In term of sound, it's unique like an Emulator II , III,  or a Fairlight cmi II can be. They are called digital bc they are samplers but they are very analog sounding ...

Despite the samples or VST, they stay a privilege to own and use... and also a nightmare too ;)  so determination is the key.

They have that fascinating power on some people, to increase and trigger creativity. Love it for that.

Take care , you can PM me if you wanna talk further on the subject . We're only two in that post at the moment ;)

thanks for reading and making the effort to understand and share.

Den 2017-01-18 kl. 04:10, skrev Jacquot.Patrice@... [Simmons_Drums]:

> Take care , you can PM me if you wanna talk further on the subject .

> We're only two in that post at the moment ;)

>

> thanks for reading and making the effort to understand and share.