Vintage Simmons Drums (UK) Users Group

From: "randaleem" <randaleem@...>
> I'm new here; hoping that someone might know how I could get
> permission to clone the SDS3/4 drumsynths?

I think Dave Simmons still owns the design rights of the older products but 
I'm not sure. Anyone else?

> I read at Wikipedia that Guitar Center owns the rights to the Simmons
> name. But I don't know yet if they have any prior circuit rights?

Most certainly not since Dave is quite furious about the use of the name on 
crappy chinese kits...

> Anybody know any details?
>
> I already have the information I need to do the clones; I'm looking
> for the permissions to use the old circuit design.
> ANY help will be very much appreciated.

Yes, cloning is the easy part and a splendid machine to copy. I wonder if it 
was OK to use the Moog filter design back then though... so who knows... Are 
you planning a commercial product then since you're asking? If so, maybe a 
good way to get back the name? Team up with Dave to release a reborn 
SDS-III?! ;-)

If it's just for your own use, clone away, noone can stop you!

electronically yours, jesper
- -- --- ---- ----- ---- --- -- -
www.electronic-obsession.se

Order your own copy of the Machinepop/Imiafan
split-EP at www.electronic-obsession.se/label.asp

"Varf\ufffdr har du s\ufffd m\ufffdnga pianon?" (Nora Persson, 9 \ufffdr)

Ok, is your clone already working? I guess, not! You discuss about permissions, you should discuss where to get the replacements for BC 557, 2N 5172, LM 3086, 2N 5459 and so on. For all not to be into schematics so deep: These are the relevant electronic parts ;-.)).
B t w.: Dave Simmons cloned the original Moog ladder filter for his SDS3/4 Drum Synthesizers. May be he didn't know, because he cloned it from an ARP synthesizer :-))). So: If you want to produce a number under 10000, nobody will care, I think. If you want help, no problem. I have good detail photos and the REAL schematics of SDS3.
Cheers
Michael 
 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael, what makes you respond in such an aggressive way. Have I missed any 
post or was it my post about the schematics of the SDX you misinterpreted?

3086's are still quite easy to find and if not replaceable in this 
application I think. And I still hope to find a few 557's since that's used 
in my Variophon I'm cloning/midifying... etc.

But as you say, if you want to make a four digit number you better have all 
parts first! :)

electronically yours, jesper
- -- --- ---- ----- ---- --- -- -
www.electronic-obsession.se

Order your own copy of the Machinepop/Imiafan
split-EP at www.electronic-obsession.se/label.asp

"Varf\ufffdr har du s\ufffd m\ufffdnga pianon?" (Nora Persson, 9 \ufffdr)

----- Original Message ----- 

From: <michael.buchner@...>
To: <Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 4:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Simmons Drums] SDS3/4 clone-Design rights?


> Ok, is your clone already working? I guess, not! You discuss about 
> permissions, you should discuss where to get the replacements for BC 557, 
> 2N 5172, LM 3086, 2N 5459 and so on. For all not to be into schematics so 
> deep: These are the relevant electronic parts ;-.)).
> B t w.: Dave Simmons cloned the original Moog ladder filter for his SDS3/4 
> Drum Synthesizers. May be he didn't know, because he cloned it from an ARP 
> synthesizer :-))). So: If you want to produce a number under 10000, nobody 
> will care, I think. If you want help, no problem. I have good detail 
> photos and the REAL schematics of SDS3.
> Cheers
> Michael
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

> I have good detail photos and the REAL schematics of SDS3.

Do you have a better shot of the PCB than the one in here?  
http://www.simmons.synth.net/sds34/docs/sds_3_service_scoops.pdf

Michael,

Thank you for the offer of help; I'd appreciate seeing the 
schematics and any pics you might have as well. 

FWIW, I have already sourced the needed old stock parts in 
reasonable small production quantities.

I'm also aware of the Moog ladder filter clone in the unit.

You can email me in reply here, or direct at randaleem at yahoo.com

Again thank you for the offer to share schematics and pictures of 
the SDS3.

Many here say just do it; but I'd still like to find Dave S or 
whomever now has the rights and ASK permission. Guitar center was a 
dead end so far.

Randal 



--- In Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com, <michael.buchner@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, is your clone already working? I guess, not! You discuss about 
permissions, you should discuss where to get the replacements for BC 
557, 2N 5172, LM 3086, 2N 5459 and so on. For all not to be into 
schematics so deep: These are the relevant electronic parts ;-.)).
> B t w.: Dave Simmons cloned the original Moog ladder filter for 
his SDS3/4 Drum Synthesizers. May be he didn't know, because he 
cloned it from an ARP synthesizer :-))). So: If you want to produce 
a number under 10000, nobody will care, I think. If you want help, 
no problem. I have good detail photos and the REAL schematics of 
SDS3.
> Cheers
> Michael

Hello Randal,
I definitely see no permission problems in cloning the SDS3, if you don't write "Simmons SDS3" on the top of your box ;-). Why should they punish an offripper of ripoff? Some of these circuits I found in other machines and - in electronic newspapers! And I don't think you will earn a fortune by selling these clones, and therefor it will be not very interesting for lawyers to fight at court. If you replace the original transistors with other components, this is already a change in layout and design. And I think, you don't want to copy the PCB, because all components on one large bed is pure nonsense. But, why only cloning it? Why not adding some nice things like an oscillator? Or a separate LFO for every channel? More (7...) channels? Change these ramp generators a little. Leave away this mic on/off fet circuit and the pad inputs (the pads work fine on the mic inputs). Then you can be sure not to lose at court. 
I will send the material I have to your private email address tomorrow because  have to reduce the mbyte size of the photos a little. B t w: Do you OWN an original SDS3/4?
See you soon
Michael
Ps.: I definitely SEE a problem in cloning an SDX. 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: randaleem 
  To: Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 3:29 AM
  Subject: Re: [Simmons Drums] SDS3/4 clone-Design rights?


  Michael,

  Thank you for the offer of help; I'd appreciate seeing the 
  schematics and any pics you might have as well. 

  FWIW, I have already sourced the needed old stock parts in 
  reasonable small production quantities.

  I'm also aware of the Moog ladder filter clone in the unit.

  You can email me in reply here, or direct at randaleem at yahoo.com

  Again thank you for the offer to share schematics and pictures of 
  the SDS3.

  Many here say just do it; but I'd still like to find Dave S or 
  whomever now has the rights and ASK permission. Guitar center was a 
  dead end so far.

  Randal 

  --- In Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com, <michael.buchner@...> wrote:
  >
  > Ok, is your clone already working? I guess, not! You discuss about 
  permissions, you should discuss where to get the replacements for BC 
  557, 2N 5172, LM 3086, 2N 5459 and so on. For all not to be into 
  schematics so deep: These are the relevant electronic parts ;-.)).
  > B t w.: Dave Simmons cloned the original Moog ladder filter for 
  his SDS3/4 Drum Synthesizers. May be he didn't know, because he 
  cloned it from an ARP synthesizer :-))). So: If you want to produce 
  a number under 10000, nobody will care, I think. If you want help, 
  no problem. I have good detail photos and the REAL schematics of 
  SDS3.
  > Cheers
  > Michael 



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

HEy I never said it would be easy ( or did I )
Berk
>Ps.: I definitely SEE a problem in cloning an SDX. 
>

________________________________________________________________________________________
12move ADSL: Voordelig, snel en onbeperkt internet. 
Meer informatie vind je op http://adsl.12move.nl

Hello Randal, I hope, all these pics and things went through to your private address. As you can see, I already did all the basic research. Have fun. I have to draw the differences in schematics, they will come soon.
Michael

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael, Yes, receieved them. Thank you.

Anyone interested in getting one or more of these clones, please let 
me know offlist.

Let me know if you want an exact clone or one with add-ons or 
deletions? Some idea of what you consider to be a fair price would 
be nice to know, and very helpful.

The number of voices will be up to you; it does not have to be four.

I'm considering offering up a modular analog drum set; in addition 
to the SDS3 modles; I plan to have bass, hi-hat and snare voices 
available. And some control stuff to boot<G>(both MIDI and non-MIDI).

I'm not really into doing the pads yet, but I do like the REAL pads 
of the orig SDS3. I'm looking into Mandala technology too; but first 
things first.  

Any thoughts on this I'd like to hear; again offlist.

Randal (more below)

--- In Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com, <michael.buchner@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Randal,
>But, why only cloning it? Why not adding some nice things like an 
>oscillator? Or a separate LFO for every channel? More (7...) 
>channels? Change these ramp generators a little. Leave away this 
>mic on/off fet circuit and the pad inputs (the pads work fine on 
>the mic inputs).

Yes, but spometimes basic and simple works too.

>Then you can be sure not to lose at court/

Once you're in court; you've already lost!
 
>I will send the material I have to your private email address 
>tomorrow because  have to reduce the mbyte size of the photos a 
>little. 

Thank you. FWIW, I can receive up to 100meg files.

B t w: Do you OWN an original SDS3/4?

No, but soon I'll have its clone.<G>

>Ps.: I definitely SEE a problem in cloning an SDX. 

Have not had time to look into all the Simmons back catalog; but i 
have squirreled away as much info as I could find on various Simmons 
products online.

>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: randaleem 
>   To: Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 3:29 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Simmons Drums] SDS3/4 clone-Design rights?
> 
> 
>   Michael,
> 
>   Thank you for the offer of help; I'd appreciate seeing the 
>   schematics and any pics you might have as well.

Thank you Michael.

Randal

--- In Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com, <michael.buchner@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Randal, I hope, all these pics and things went through to your 
private address. As you can see, I already did all the basic research. 
Have fun. I have to draw the differences in schematics, they will come 
soon.
> Michael

Hi Michael,

the SDS3 schematics + service scoops that I released to 
simmons.synth.net were given to me by Dave Simmons and, as you can
tell, were mostly hand drawn.
Are your schematics in better condition and will you be releasing
them to the group ?

Regards
Tom W.



--- In Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com, <michael.buchner@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, is your clone already working? I guess, not! You discuss about 
permissions, you should discuss where to get the replacements for BC 
557, 2N 5172, LM 3086, 2N 5459 and so on. For all not to be into 
schematics so deep: These are the relevant electronic parts ;-.)).
> B t w.: Dave Simmons cloned the original Moog ladder filter for 
his SDS3/4 Drum Synthesizers. May be he didn't know, because he 
cloned it from an ARP synthesizer :-))). So: If you want to produce 
a number under 10000, nobody will care, I think. If you want help, 
no problem. I have good detail photos and the REAL schematics of 
SDS3.

> Cheers
> Michael 
>  
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I think, it is not necessary to clone the whole SDX. The whole sampling and
sound stuff with the nine sounds per pad, the sampling itself, the storage
a.s.o. can be easily made by an old Akai or something else. But it would be
a good idea to build the input interfaces which are located on the first SDX
PCB and the ZI thing. I am working on that and I have drawn a rough
schematic of the standard ZI input (still not ready: the 2 piezo inputs of
kick and snarerim and also the pedals).Anybody who wants to have that for
own experiments: I share it of course for free. I am working on ZI pad
clones also, but this might take some time. But I am glad to have all
materials together to build these FSRs. I also found a way to play
"ordinary" synthdrums (SDS 3,4,5,7,8,9) with a ZI pad (!) and I am working
on a solution to play SDX with a "normal" piezopads (sure, I know, the zone
information will be lost, but most of SDX owners don't have 16 ZIs and
perhaps they will be glad to use ALL channels somehow. And a cowbell for
example needs no zone intelligence).
Michael

le 28/09/07 2:06, michael.buchner@... à michael.buchner@debitel.net
a écrit :

> I think, it is not necessary to clone the whole SDX. The whole sampling and
> sound stuff with the nine sounds per pad, the sampling itself, the storage
> a.s.o. can be easily made by an old Akai or something else. But it would be
> a good idea to build the input interfaces which are located on the first SDX
> PCB and the ZI thing. I am working on that and I have drawn a rough
> schematic of the standard ZI input (still not ready: the 2 piezo inputs of
> kick and snarerim and also the pedals).Anybody who wants to have that for
> own experiments: I share it of course for free. I am working on ZI pad
> clones also, but this might take some time. But I am glad to have all
> materials together to build these FSRs. I also found a way to play
> "ordinary" synthdrums (SDS 3,4,5,7,8,9) with a ZI pad (!) and I am working
> on a solution to play SDX with a "normal" piezopads (sure, I know, the zone
> information will be lost, but most of SDX owners don't have 16 ZIs and
> perhaps they will be glad to use ALL channels somehow. And a cowbell for
> example needs no zone intelligence).
> Michael
> 
> 
>
It's all for sure some very precious & hard work thanks for doing it
Michael...

you know what ?  
my dream about the pads would be tohave the inside triggering  of ddrum3/4
mesheads that can send zone informations to the ddrum brain from a piezo
sensor ...(but I don't know how it does it ...)
& have this hexagonal shape ...

Or I'd like to (it's a fantasy more than a wish ) to find the same ZI pad &
being able to enhance the bounce on it ; they are so beautiful ...

I have some few new FSR films, but how are you building that ?

If you need any informations I still can transfer questions to Dave if ever
he has time & agrees to answer ...
I also have some schematics, you can contact me if you need something
precise.

I will be for sure intersted by some of your interfaces, maybe it will end
to be one ...

The next stage will be the sound in itself ...
But one thing at one time ...

Thanks again for working on it !
& Good luck,
Patrice.

le 28/09/07 2:06, michael.buchner@... à michael.buchner@debitel.net
a écrit :

> I think, it is not necessary to clone the whole SDX. The whole sampling and
> sound stuff with the nine sounds per pad, the sampling itself, the storage
> a.s.o. can be easily made by an old Akai or something else. But it would be
> a good idea to build the input interfaces which are located on the first SDX
> PCB and the ZI thing. I am working on that and I have drawn a rough
> schematic of the standard ZI input (still not ready: the 2 piezo inputs of
> kick and snarerim and also the pedals).Anybody who wants to have that for
> own experiments: I share it of course for free. I am working on ZI pad
> clones also, but this might take some time. But I am glad to have all
> materials together to build these FSRs. I also found a way to play
> "ordinary" synthdrums (SDS 3,4,5,7,8,9) with a ZI pad (!) and I am working
> on a solution to play SDX with a "normal" piezopads (sure, I know, the zone
> information will be lost, but most of SDX owners don't have 16 ZIs and
> perhaps they will be glad to use ALL channels somehow. And a cowbell for
> example needs no zone intelligence).
> Michael
> 
> 
> 


one more thing ; 
we have to find the way to devellop its trigging dynamic, personnally it
always appeared to me too limiting in the gest & the motion. I remember
talking about that with Bill Bruford .

I know I changed that on my ddrum3 system by puttin,g some mesheads instead
of normal remo skin on the pads ...
it nearly doubled the dynamic & allowed biggest hits & nuances...

For the SDX or ZI pads let's think a bit more about it maybe ...
as they 're still quite hard to hit...

I do have some notes somewhere about the wishlist for the becoming perfect
SDX.I'll try to dig them out.
Let's not forgetting that there are some few troubles in the software too
...especially on the samples & instruments catalog management... but it's
another story 

anyway ; time to sleep !

bye, 
Patrice.

When I came in the rehearsel room with my SDX, our guitarist stated after
hearing my kinda sales story why it "ould be great for the band to have a
drummer who played an sdx" : "It's nice that we finally have a drummer with
some kind of intelligence"

I'm really curious what you're up to !
Is it possible to have true ZI?? fromtotal left----->>>Right and top to bottom
Can you send me those schematics??

greetz Berk

>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>To: <Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com>
>From: <michael.buchner@...>
>Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 02:06:44 +0200
>Subject: Re: Re: [Simmons Drums] SDS3/4 clone-Design rights?
>Reply-To: Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>I think, it is not necessary to clone the whole SDX. The whole sampling
and
>sound stuff with the nine sounds per pad, the sampling itself, the storage
>a.s.o. can be easily made by an old Akai or something else. But it would
>be
>a good idea to build the input interfaces which are located on the first
>SDX
>PCB and the ZI thing. I am working on that and I have drawn a rough
>schematic of the standard ZI input (still not ready: the 2 piezo inputs
of
>kick and snarerim and also the pedals).Anybody who wants to have that for
>own experiments: I share it of course for free. I am working on ZI pad
>clones also, but this might take some time. But I am glad to have all
>materials together to build these FSRs. I also found a way to play
>"ordinary" synthdrums (SDS 3,4,5,7,8,9) with a ZI pad (!) and I am working
>on a solution to play SDX with a "normal" piezopads (sure, I know, the zone
>information will be lost, but most of SDX owners don't have 16 ZIs and
>perhaps they will be glad to use ALL channels somehow. And a cowbell for
>example needs no zone intelligence).
>Michael
>
>
>
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


________________________________________________________________________________________
12move ADSL: Voordelig, snel en onbeperkt internet. 
Meer informatie vind je op http://adsl.12move.nl

Michael,

I tried my SDX with standard piezo pads and all (ZI) channels work no 
problem. I think the spec for the ZI input was something like +5v or -
15v (one was for position, other for intensity but I can't remember 
which way round). Doesn't seem to have harmed my SDX either !

Phil.

PS welcome back Patrice :o)


--- In Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com, <michael.buchner@...> wrote:
>
> I think, it is not necessary to clone the whole SDX. The whole 
sampling and
> sound stuff with the nine sounds per pad, the sampling itself, the 
storage
> a.s.o. can be easily made by an old Akai or something else. But it 
would be
> a good idea to build the input interfaces which are located on the 
first SDX
> PCB and the ZI thing. I am working on that and I have drawn a rough
> schematic of the standard ZI input (still not ready: the 2 piezo 
inputs of
> kick and snarerim and also the pedals).Anybody who wants to have 
that for
> own experiments: I share it of course for free. I am working on ZI 
pad
> clones also, but this might take some time. But I am glad to have 
all
> materials together to build these FSRs. I also found a way to play
> "ordinary" synthdrums (SDS 3,4,5,7,8,9) with a ZI pad (!) and I am 
working
> on a solution to play SDX with a "normal" piezopads (sure, I know, 
the zone
> information will be lost, but most of SDX owners don't have 16 ZIs 
and
> perhaps they will be glad to use ALL channels somehow. And a 
cowbell for

> example needs no zone intelligence).
> Michael
>