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New to the list - newbie question

2009-08-10 by Nils Odegaard

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this list, and not (yet) a Serge owner. I'm contemplating acquiring an Animal, after years of drooling over a Serge system.

One of the things I like about Serge is, not surprisingly, the patch-programmability. Since an Animal seems most suited to my needs, I'm currently trying to understand the possible uses of each of the modules. One way of doing this is to set up "imaginary patches" in my head :)

I would like your feedback on one of these patches, namely the "reduced Yamaha DX". The idea is to make a 3-operator FM synth, not in any way an exact replica of a Yamaha DX, but with a similar and simplified architecture. The 6-op DX7 arcitecture will of course demand a lot more modules, and I'm thinking 3-op will give me enough to play with when taking voltage-controllability, wave multipliers etc into account.

I'm thinking I'll need the following to achieve my idea:
3 VCOs (sine/triangle required, everything else is a bonus)
3 EGs (simple ramp generators will do, for controlling the VCAs and/or sweeping the frequency of the oscillators)
3 VCAs (1 for the basic VCO volume, 2 as voltage-controlled attenuators)

So... my question is: which modules are suitable for what? As far as I've gathered, the following modules can be used:
NTO - vco
PCO - vco
VCQF - vco
DTG - vco or ramp gen (x2)
SSG - vca or ramp gen (x2)
UAP - vca (x2)

My nine needed modules will only work if the stepped section of the SSG also works like a vca (I've gathered that the smooth section can). Is this possible? Are there important limitations to using the various modules this way?

I have the ability to use external "voltage controlled" ramp generators from a drum machine via MIDI/CV converters, and probably will to increase the complexity of the patch. But for now, I'd like to know if it's possible to do it within the Serge alone.

Have I overlooked or misunderstood anything? I might be completely off track on this, so please correct me if I am. Any feedback is much appreciated.

Sorry for the oddball first post, but I get the impression this is not a bad place for a post like this :)

Best regards,
Nils, Norway

Re: New to the list - newbie question

2009-08-10 by stkorn

Hi Nils,

Welcome to the list! The Animal is a great choice for an all-in-one Serge. As far as I know, the bottom section of the SSG cannot be used as a VCA but nonetheless I think you have all the pieces needed to do the 3 operator FM patch you describe. Oscillators are no problem, you would have at least 6 to choose from. Let's say you use the NTO, PCO and VCFQ. You can then use both halves of the DTG as EG's plus the SSG smooth section which can self-cycle as an LFO (you said you also have external ramp generators so that would give you more options here) . For VCA's you have the top section of the Wave Multiplier plus the two in the UAP. So it looks like you would be able to do the patch (plus a whole lot more of course!)

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, "Nils Odegaard" <nilsodegaard@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm new to this list, and not (yet) a Serge owner. I'm contemplating acquiring an Animal, after years of drooling over a Serge system.
>
> One of the things I like about Serge is, not surprisingly, the patch-programmability. Since an Animal seems most suited to my needs, I'm currently trying to understand the possible uses of each of the modules. One way of doing this is to set up "imaginary patches" in my head :)
>
> I would like your feedback on one of these patches, namely the "reduced Yamaha DX". The idea is to make a 3-operator FM synth, not in any way an exact replica of a Yamaha DX, but with a similar and simplified architecture. The 6-op DX7 arcitecture will of course demand a lot more modules, and I'm thinking 3-op will give me enough to play with when taking voltage-controllability, wave multipliers etc into account.)

Re: New to the list - newbie question

2009-08-10 by matthew carpenter

Hi Nils,

The Animal's a great choice!

I would use the following for a 3 operator FM patch with an Animal. Pretty much echoing what Steve said:

The NTO provides a built-in VCA for FM modulation amount so the other VCA for controlling the mod. amount of the PCO could be obtained from the top section of the Wave Multiplier (in LO mode). Then, if you want control over the mod. amount for your third oscillator, which could be the self-oscillating VCFQ, use half of the UAP.

The Smooth section of the SSG and both halves of the DTG can be patch-programmed to behave as transient generators or dual-waveform LFOs. These won't behave like VCAs, if patch-programmed -- the behavior is more like a low-pass gate.

Matt

Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 10:01 AM, stkorn <stkorn@...> wrote:

Hi Nils,

Welcome to the list! The Animal is a great choice for an all-in-one Serge. As far as I know, the bottom section of the SSG cannot be used as a VCA but nonetheless I think you have all the pieces needed to do the 3 operator FM patch you describe. Oscillators are no problem, you would have at least 6 to choose from. Let's say you use the NTO, PCO and VCFQ. You can then use both halves of the DTG as EG's plus the SSG smooth section which can self-cycle as an LFO (you said you also have external ramp generators so that would give you more options here) . For VCA's you have the top section of the Wave Multiplier plus the two in the UAP. So it looks like you would be able to do the patch (plus a whole lot more of course!)

--- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, "Nils Odegaard" <nilsodegaard@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm new to this list, and not (yet) a Serge owner. I'm contemplating acquiring an Animal, after years of drooling over a Serge system.
>
> One of the things I like about Serge is, not surprisingly, the patch-programmability. Since an Animal seems most suited to my needs, I'm currently trying to understand the possible uses of each of the modules. One way of doing this is to set up "imaginary patches" in my head :)
>
> I would like your feedback on one of these patches, namely the "reduced Yamaha DX". The idea is to make a 3-operator FM synth, not in any way an exact replica of a Yamaha DX, but with a similar and simplified architecture. The 6-op DX7 arcitecture will of course demand a lot more modules, and I'm thinking 3-op will give me enough to play with when taking voltage-controllability, wave multipliers etc into account.)

Re: New to the list - newbie question

2009-08-11 by kkonkkrete

Hi Nils

Nice to see you over here!

I just wanted to mention that in my personal experience (only about 1 year), while having a clear goal in mind is generally a great starting point, I honestly wouldn't get too caught up in visualizing a very specific application, as that can lead to frustration when things don't quite work out. I tend to chance on the best sounds just at the moment when I transition from thinking about how with an extra ADSR I could do so-and-so (left brain, engineering approach to patching) and start just experimenting. Of course, you have to set up a good playground, and that's the art of patching a Serge as far as I can tell. Yes on paper it can do X, Y and Z, but I went through a lull after buying mine when I started reaching the limits of my preconceptions based on other synths.

A lot of the power of a Serge is just the shear power of the sound. I still start each patch with "this is going to be an FM patch" or something similar, but I now let myself end up with something completely different. This took some getting used to. Yes the modules are very versatile, but you probably don't want to think of the top half of an SSG as an LFO for example, that's too limiting, nor is the SSG a very fully featured LFO.

Cheers,
Kkonkkrete

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, matthew carpenter <matfhew.carpenfer@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Nils,
>
> The Animal's a great choice!
>
> I would use the following for a 3 operator FM patch with an Animal. Pretty
> much echoing what Steve said:
>
> The NTO provides a built-in VCA for FM modulation amount so the other VCA
> for controlling the mod. amount of the PCO could be obtained from the top
> section of the Wave Multiplier (in LO mode). Then, if you want control over
> the mod. amount for your third oscillator, which could be the
> self-oscillating VCFQ, use half of the UAP.
>
> The Smooth section of the SSG and both halves of the DTG can be
> patch-programmed to behave as transient generators or dual-waveform LFOs.
> These won't behave like VCAs, if patch-programmed -- the behavior is more
> like a low-pass gate.
>
> Matt
>
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 10:01 AM, stkorn <stkorn@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hi Nils,
> >
> > Welcome to the list! The Animal is a great choice for an all-in-one Serge.
> > As far as I know, the bottom section of the SSG cannot be used as a VCA but
> > nonetheless I think you have all the pieces needed to do the 3 operator FM
> > patch you describe. Oscillators are no problem, you would have at least 6 to
> > choose from. Let's say you use the NTO, PCO and VCFQ. You can then use both
> > halves of the DTG as EG's plus the SSG smooth section which can self-cycle
> > as an LFO (you said you also have external ramp generators so that would
> > give you more options here) . For VCA's you have the top section of the Wave
> > Multiplier plus the two in the UAP. So it looks like you would be able to do
> > the patch (plus a whole lot more of course!)
> >
> >
> > --- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com <SergeModular%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Nils Odegaard" <nilsodegaard@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > I'm new to this list, and not (yet) a Serge owner. I'm contemplating
> > acquiring an Animal, after years of drooling over a Serge system.
> > >
> > > One of the things I like about Serge is, not surprisingly, the
> > patch-programmability. Since an Animal seems most suited to my needs, I'm
> > currently trying to understand the possible uses of each of the modules. One
> > way of doing this is to set up "imaginary patches" in my head :)
> > >
> > > I would like your feedback on one of these patches, namely the "reduced
> > Yamaha DX". The idea is to make a 3-operator FM synth, not in any way an
> > exact replica of a Yamaha DX, but with a similar and simplified
> > architecture. The 6-op DX7 arcitecture will of course demand a lot more
> > modules, and I'm thinking 3-op will give me enough to play with when taking
> > voltage-controllability, wave multipliers etc into account.)
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: New to the list - newbie question

2009-08-11 by S V G

Nils,

Instead of approaching the Serge with preconceived ideas of what and how you want to make sound, I'd recommend going in with a blank slate. I've seen too many people in the modern age of keyboards expecting X, Y, and Z without really letting the instrument speak and have it's own voice come through. I'd encourage you to experiment like crazy with the FM capabilities on the Serge, just be aware that it may or may not come close to any of your preconceived notions. It's a fantastic machine that will do so very much more than simple FM (or phase modulation as the case may be...)

Stephen

<<The idea is to make a 3-operator FM synth, not in any way an exact replica of a Yamaha DX, but with a similar and simplified architecture. >>

Re: New to the list - newbie question

2009-08-11 by Kylee Kennedy

For me the Serge is most rewarding when I go at it with a blank slate
also. I will have a few ideas of what I want to accomplish, basslines,
pads or bug music but just patch and pull, patch and pull. Till I hit
on something then hit record.
My favorite thing to do is self-generating patches that have long loop
lengths if they even loop at all. Just set one of those up in the
morning and let it go all day while I'm around doing chores, take a
break, mess with the patch and keep on grooving with the chores. The
Serge is magical in auto-pilot.
I love the DSGs and want to get some M-odules with a WAD and some ADSR
(which my 3 panel lacks).

Modulations,
Kylee Kennedy

Re: New to the list - newbie question

2009-08-11 by Nils Odegaard

Great answers, thanks a lot!

That's great news that there are more options than I thought. I wasn't aware of the VCA function of the top Wave multiplier, and forgot about the VC input of the NTO. And judging from your responses my idea doesn't seem that far out :)

I certainly need to get into the SSG more, it seems to carry many secrets, as well being slightly related to the DSG/DTG in its core (?). Is it possible to patch the smooth section to act as a one-shot ramp, or will it always cycle?

The only module left that doesn't seem to have a wide range of uses is the mixer. Apart from what seems to be an inverter on the 3rd input, does this module have any other tricks up its sleeve? Seems a slight shame that there are no VC opton in this module, but I guess there's not much space for that :)

Nils

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, matthew carpenter <matfhew.carpenfer@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Nils,
>
> The Animal's a great choice!
>
> I would use the following for a 3 operator FM patch with an Animal. Pretty
> much echoing what Steve said:
>
> The NTO provides a built-in VCA for FM modulation amount so the other VCA
> for controlling the mod. amount of the PCO could be obtained from the top
> section of the Wave Multiplier (in LO mode). Then, if you want control over
> the mod. amount for your third oscillator, which could be the
> self-oscillating VCFQ, use half of the UAP.
>
> The Smooth section of the SSG and both halves of the DTG can be
> patch-programmed to behave as transient generators or dual-waveform LFOs.
> These won't behave like VCAs, if patch-programmed -- the behavior is more
> like a low-pass gate.
>
> Matt
>
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 10:01 AM, stkorn <stkorn@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hi Nils,
> >
> > Welcome to the list! The Animal is a great choice for an all-in-one Serge.
> > As far as I know, the bottom section of the SSG cannot be used as a VCA but
> > nonetheless I think you have all the pieces needed to do the 3 operator FM
> > patch you describe. Oscillators are no problem, you would have at least 6 to
> > choose from. Let's say you use the NTO, PCO and VCFQ. You can then use both
> > halves of the DTG as EG's plus the SSG smooth section which can self-cycle
> > as an LFO (you said you also have external ramp generators so that would
> > give you more options here) . For VCA's you have the top section of the Wave
> > Multiplier plus the two in the UAP. So it looks like you would be able to do
> > the patch (plus a whole lot more of course!)
> >
> >
> > --- In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com <SergeModular%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Nils Odegaard" <nilsodegaard@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > I'm new to this list, and not (yet) a Serge owner. I'm contemplating
> > acquiring an Animal, after years of drooling over a Serge system.
> > >
> > > One of the things I like about Serge is, not surprisingly, the
> > patch-programmability. Since an Animal seems most suited to my needs, I'm
> > currently trying to understand the possible uses of each of the modules. One
> > way of doing this is to set up "imaginary patches" in my head :)
> > >
> > > I would like your feedback on one of these patches, namely the "reduced
> > Yamaha DX". The idea is to make a 3-operator FM synth, not in any way an
> > exact replica of a Yamaha DX, but with a similar and simplified
> > architecture. The 6-op DX7 arcitecture will of course demand a lot more
> > modules, and I'm thinking 3-op will give me enough to play with when taking
> > voltage-controllability, wave multipliers etc into account.)
> >
> >
> >
>