Modular Synth Panels

The Milton sequencer looks like it will be a very interesting
project, and a great complement to the USeq.

If you're not familiar with the Milton, you can find info on it here:
http://www.buzzclick-music.com/about_milton.html

It's a 4-bank, 16-stage analog sequencer.

A preliminary MOTM-style panel for it is in the files area, under
panel proposals - Milton Sequencer. I'd appreciate any suggestions
you may have. If we can get a design that will work for several
people, Stooge panels would probably be a cheaper route than
Schaeffer (about $200!).

Two other panel designs are there. These are for two modules that
would be entirely optional, but could add a lot of capabilities to
the Milton.

My thought is that if I'm going to spend the money to build a
powerful analog sequencer, I might as well go whole hog...

CGS Seq Switch
The CGS Seq Switch panel is for Ken Stone's Sequential Switch:
http://cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs28_seq_switch.html

This module can be used as a 8-stage sequencer, but also can be used
to sequence between 8 inputs. Using this with the Milton, one should
be able to create longer sequences, such as 32 or 64 steps.

For example:
* Milton A output into 1st CGS Switch input
* Milton B output into 2nd CGS Switch input
* Milton step 1 gate out into CGS clock in

This would alternate the CGS Switch output between the first Milton
bank & the second. Using the modules together should allow for a lot
of flexibility in sequence length.

Milton Gate Bus
The second panel, Milton Gate Bus, brings out the unused gate busses
on the 2nd, 3rd, & 4th Milton bank boards. I'm thinking about buying
an extra bank board to allow 4 total on the expander panel. The
Milton supports up to 15 banks. The extra bank board is $15, so the
cost here is basically panel components.

The gate panel would give you 8, 16-stage gate busses. These could be
used to create rhythmic trigger combinations. They could also be used
to create long, syncopated rhythms with the main sequencer.

Using these modules together would allow a great deal of flexibility,
along with full hands-on interactivity.

Panels
As I mentioned, I'm interested in getting Stooge panels made up -
they'd be attractive, and they'd probably be cheaper than Shaeffer
if several people ordered. The next panel order is months away, which
allows time for a lot of discussion and experimentation with the
layout.

Any suggestion or feedback is appreciated!

Hi there,
your proposal looks pretty impressive!
For my part I'm still not sure what way to go, but this seems to me
closer than anything I saw or had in mind till now.
I printed your PDFs and will scrutinize them later on at home ;-)
Did you do them with FPD?

--- In motmpanels@yahoogroups.com, "elle_webb" <elle_webb@h...> wrote:
> Milton Gate Bus
> The second panel, Milton Gate Bus, brings out the unused gate busses
> on the 2nd, 3rd, & 4th Milton bank boards. I'm thinking about buying
> an extra bank board to allow 4 total on the expander panel. The
> Milton supports up to 15 banks. The extra bank board is $15, so the
> cost here is basically panel components.

I ordered two sets of PCBs. So this sounds pretty interesting (as I'm
addicted to rhythm as well ;-)

But those numbers of SPDT switches would burst my budget.
AFAIK up to 6-8USD/EUR a pc. (and they should withstand some heavy
flipping when performing live)
That's not an issue for you?

> The gate panel would give you 8, 16-stage gate busses. These could be
> used to create rhythmic trigger combinations. They could also be used
> to create long, syncopated rhythms with the main sequencer.
> Using these modules together would allow a great deal of flexibility,
> along with full hands-on interactivity.

Yeah! Yeah! Here! Performance! Here! ;-)

BTW, what brand/model of knobs do you suggest for your design?

Thanks a lot!
soon, Michael.

--- In motmpanels@yahoogroups.com, "tontaub" <egroups@a...> wrote:

> Hi there,
> your proposal looks pretty impressive!
> For my part I'm still not sure what way to go, but this seems to me
> closer than anything I saw or had in mind till now.

Glad to hear this. We've got time, so the more discussion, the better.

> Did you do them with FPD?
>

Adobe Illustrator. The Stooge guys prefer Corel Draw, but I don't
have
it.

> But those numbers of SPDT switches would burst my budget.
> AFAIK up to 6-8USD/EUR a pc. (and they should withstand some heavy
> flipping when performing live)
> That's not an issue for you?
>

Panel & switch cost is a big issue. On panels, I think we can
minimize cost if we can get a panel design that will work for a group
of people. It makes sense to keep additional functionality
on separate panels to keep costs down for people that either don't
need the extra features, or that would rather add them as they need
them.

I'm hoping to find some inexpensive switches. Cynthia from
Cyndustries has recommended some switches that were about 1$ US. $70
for switches is doable. I haven't seen these yet, though. I'd like to
find a switch that will keep the cost down while not being flimsy.
Anybody that's independently wealthly could use more expensive
switches without affecting the panels.

Anybody have suggestions for good inexpensive SPDT center-off
switches?

> BTW, what brand/model of knobs do you suggest for your design?
>

I'd like to find out what is used on the UEG. They are smaller
versions of the MOTM knobs. Anybody have a source or part number for
these?

I got some ueg knobs, smaller version of the "oficial" MOTM knob. I think
your design uses the same spacing than mine(.8" between pot centers) so they
can`t work ... I printed my fdp design and tried to align them but you`ll
need more spacing... Also, the pots have a 6mm D shaft and the ueg`s are
1/4". We need smaller knobs, 10-11mm. max diameter.
Thanks,

Josue Arias.

PS. I like your design and it`s very much like mine. I preffer some lines
for separating the sequencer channels and the in/outs section.

----- Original Message -----
From: "elle_webb" <elle_webb@...>
To: <motmpanels@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 11:05 PM
Subject: [motmpanels] Re: Milton monster sequencer - feedback requested
> I'd like to find out what is used on the UEG. They are smaller
> versions of the MOTM knobs. Anybody have a source or part number for
> these?

--- In motmpanels@yahoogroups.com, "Josue Arias" <josue@A...> wrote:

>I got some ueg knobs, smaller version of the "oficial" MOTM knob. I

think they can`t work. We need smaller knobs, 10-11mm. max diameter.

It's unfortunate that they're too big. Let us know if you find
anything good. I haven't found a good source.
http://www.rogancorp.com/ has some nice knobs, but a lousy website.

> PS. I like your design and it`s very much like mine. I preffer some

lines

> for separating the sequencer channels and the in/outs section.
>

I like the Cyndustries panel for it, but not the jacks at the top.
Yours is very good, too, but I'd prefer more of an MOTM look.

I'm very open to changes and would consider other panel proposals. My
hope is that we could come up with a MOTM-style panel that a group
likes, to keep our costs down.

--- In motmpanels@yahoogroups.com, "elle_webb" <elle_webb@h...> wrote:

> I'm hoping to find some inexpensive switches. Cynthia from
> Cyndustries has recommended some switches that were about 1$ US. $70
> for switches is doable. I haven't seen these yet, though. I'd like to
> find a switch that will keep the cost down while not being flimsy.

the cheapest I found till now is at rs-components.com/.at @ about 4
EUR/pc. @ 25pc. That's better but will sum up quickly nevertheless.

Michael. (still on the hunt)

--- elle_webb <elle_webb@...> wrote:

> I'm very open to changes and would consider other panel proposals.
> My hope is that we could come up with a MOTM-style panel that a
> group likes, to keep our costs down.

Without a doubt, if the group can decide on a single design, Stooge
Panels, Inc. can blow away that $200 price. We have quietly in the
background been making large panels like this for the SuperMoe. They
are beautiful and have the exact same finish as all othr Stooge
panels. Please keep us in mind.

Inexpensive switches:
All Electronics - part number MTS-5 Miniture toggle (Blacet style
handle) SPDT center off. $1 each, 90 cents each @10 80 cents each
@100

Same with out center off = MTS-4 75 cents at the 100 price.

Larry Hendry


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> Without a doubt, if the group can decide on a single design, Stooge
> Panels, Inc. can blow away that $200 price.

That's what I figured...care to ballpark an estimate for an 8u panel
in small volume, say 5 or 10?

>
> Inexpensive switches:
> All Electronics - part number MTS-5 Miniture toggle (Blacet style
> handle) SPDT center off. $1 each, 90 cents each @10 80 cents each
> @100
>

Great info - thanks for speaking up! The cost for the Milton expander
/ gate array (see the Panel Proposals folder) would be fairly
reasonable with switches like that.

Larry, would you or Dave have any suggestions for MOTM-appropriate
knobs in a smaller size? It would be good if we could agree to a
standard so conversions like this would fit in.

Hi All,

--- In motmpanels@yahoogroups.com, "Josue Arias" <josue@A...> wrote:
> We need smaller knobs, 10-11mm. max diameter.

considerung the rather wide voltage range we get from such a bank
10-11mm is way too small for me.
I do have small hands but I don't feel comfortable when tuning through
several octaves with such a little thingy. That's the only thing I
don't like on having such a massive 16-step sequencer ;-)

I'm aware that the knobs in Cynthia's design are only slightly bigger
(13mm I guess) so I'm thinking of placing the pots not straight in a
line but in a zig-zag.
Admittedly that would probably not give us the flexibility of putting
a second panel with trigger buses and would for sure cause a load of
extra soldering work (in order to get those displaced pots connected).

I've only little sparetime these days but I'd like to play around with
this idea by the end of the week.

BTW, I checked the mouser catalogue and found the smallest pendant to
the original sized knobs (506-PKES90B1/4) is 19mm which would cover
all the tickmarks in Josue's Design IIRC.
And all those knobs are for 1/4" shaft and not cheap ($1.55/100pc.)
(I've been pointed to a Maplin.co.uk pendant which is cheaper but only
similar to the original knobs).


later, Michael.

--- In motmpanels@yahoogroups.com, "tontaub" <egroups@a...> wrote:

> BTW, I checked the mouser catalogue and found the smallest pendant to
> the original sized knobs (506-PKES90B1/4) is 19mm which would cover
> all the tickmarks in Josue's Design IIRC.

that's mouser part.no. 506-PKES60B1/4 (page 721)

> And all those knobs are for 1/4" shaft and not cheap ($1.55/100pc.)
> (I've been pointed to a Maplin.co.uk pendant which is cheaper but only
> similar to the original knobs).

EU folks look here (thanks to "Sikorsky" for pointing me there):
http://www.maplin.co.uk/products/module.asp?CartID=030623170606248&moduleno=1819

Michael.

Hi Again,

A zig-zag pattern for the pots would be great but you can`t use pcb mount
pots so lots of wiring is required.
Also You`ll miss the gate buss or a complete pot row. pot spacing in milton
PCb is .8" and the separation between vertical rows must be at least 1".

Best regards,

Josue.

----- Original Message -----
From: "tontaub" <egroups@...>
To: <motmpanels@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 11:31 AM
Subject: [motmpanels] Re: Milton monster sequencer - feedback requested


> Hi All,
>
> --- In motmpanels@yahoogroups.com, "Josue Arias" <josue@A...> wrote:
> > We need smaller knobs, 10-11mm. max diameter.
>
> considerung the rather wide voltage range we get from such a bank
> 10-11mm is way too small for me.
> I do have small hands but I don't feel comfortable when tuning through
> several octaves with such a little thingy. That's the only thing I
> don't like on having such a massive 16-step sequencer ;-)
>
> I'm aware that the knobs in Cynthia's design are only slightly bigger
> (13mm I guess) so I'm thinking of placing the pots not straight in a
> line but in a zig-zag.
> Admittedly that would probably not give us the flexibility of putting
> a second panel with trigger buses and would for sure cause a load of
> extra soldering work (in order to get those displaced pots connected).
>
> I've only little sparetime these days but I'd like to play around with
> this idea by the end of the week.
>
> BTW, I checked the mouser catalogue and found the smallest pendant to
> the original sized knobs (506-PKES90B1/4) is 19mm which would cover
> all the tickmarks in Josue's Design IIRC.
> And all those knobs are for 1/4" shaft and not cheap ($1.55/100pc.)
> (I've been pointed to a Maplin.co.uk pendant which is cheaper but only
> similar to the original knobs).
>
>
> later, Michael.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> motmpanels-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--- In motmpanels@yahoogroups.com, "Josue Arias" <josue@A...> wrote:

> A zig-zag pattern for the pots would be great but you can`t use pcb

mount

> pots so lots of wiring is required.

This is what I tried to point out.

> Also You`ll miss the gate buss or a complete pot row. pot spacing

in milton

> PCb is .8" and the separation between vertical rows must be at least 1".

elle_webb was proposing a 2x5U solution for those who like to obtain
additional trigger buses. Maybe one approach could be to go for such a
2x 5U version but having pots and switches equally distributed on both
panels. I'm trying to figure out later this week.

Michael.

--- elle_webb <elle_webb@...> wrote:

> That's what I figured...care to ballpark an estimate for an 8u
> panel in small volume, say 5 or 10?

Well, I have to get quotes from metal shop, painter, and printer to
make any pricing official. But, I will offer a ball park as long as
no one treats it as a quote.

The price to do one only would be similar to Schaeffer. I think
around $190. However, the price would get a lot better with
quantity. Something like this:
2 = $140 each
3 = $125 each
4 = $115 each
5 = $110 each
10 = $100 each

These prices are just estimates and assume that all panels are the
same design and each print at the same time.

> Great info - thanks for speaking up! The cost for the Milton
> expander / gate array (see the Panel Proposals folder) would be
> fairly reasonable with switches like that.

I need to check out that stuff. Sounds like fun. I have not had
time to look at any of it since we are right in the middle of
processing our largest ever stooge panel order.

> Larry, would you or Dave have any suggestions for MOTM-appropriate
> knobs in a smaller size? It would be good if we could agree to a
> standard so conversions like this would fit in.

I don't. It seems the UEG style knobs are too large.

Larry


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There are 3/4" MOTM-style knobs at www.radioshack.com, as well as
full-sized. If I recall, a pack of 4 small is $2.49, 4 large $2.89; the
price goes down w/ volume, though that's not advertised. I can't tell the
difference between them and the real deal, except they have slotted inserts,
which I prefer over hex anyway...

Scott

>From: "elle_webb" <elle_webb@...>
>Reply-To: motmpanels@yahoogroups.com
>To: motmpanels@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [motmpanels] Re: Stooge monster panels and low $ switches
>Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 03:50:20 -0000
>
> > Without a doubt, if the group can decide on a single design, Stooge
> > Panels, Inc. can blow away that $200 price.
>
>That's what I figured...care to ballpark an estimate for an 8u panel
>in small volume, say 5 or 10?
>
> >
> > Inexpensive switches:
> > All Electronics - part number MTS-5 Miniture toggle (Blacet style
> > handle) SPDT center off. $1 each, 90 cents each @10 80 cents each
> > @100
> >
>
>Great info - thanks for speaking up! The cost for the Milton expander
>/ gate array (see the Panel Proposals folder) would be fairly
>reasonable with switches like that.
>
>Larry, would you or Dave have any suggestions for MOTM-appropriate
>knobs in a smaller size? It would be good if we could agree to a
>standard so conversions like this would fit in.
>

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--- In motmpanels@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Deyo" <thom_s4@h...> wrote:

> There are 3/4" MOTM-style knobs at www.radioshack.com, as well as
> full-sized. If I recall, a pack of 4 small is $2.49, 4 large $2.89;

the

> price goes down w/ volume, though that's not advertised. I can't

tell the

> difference between them and the real deal, except they have slotted

inserts,

> which I prefer over hex anyway...
>

Scott

I have used the larger size for a couple of Oakley conversions, with
great results. I've seen these criticized as being inferior, but to
my eyes, their interchangeable with the Alco knobs.

I bought a pack of 4 of the smaller knobs over the weekend to check
out. I'll try and print out a panel section tonight and see if they
will fit ok.

The schaeffer cost for my panel design is 132.77 euros + VAT,
discounts are 10% for 10 units, 20% for 20 units.
I like very much the stooge that the schaeffer, but at least for me,
will be a nightmare drilling 100 holes myself...

Best regards,

Josue.

> The price to do one only would be similar to Schaeffer. I think
> around $190. However, the price would get a lot better with
> quantity. Something like this:
> 2 = $140 each
> 3 = $125 each
> 4 = $115 each
> 5 = $110 each
> 10 = $100 each
>
> These prices are just estimates and assume that all panels are the
> same design and each print at the same time.

That's a darn good thing to consider that may sway toward the
Schaeffer panel. That is one big lot of drilling. (brings new
meaning to DIY)
:)
Larry

> but at least for me, will be a nightmare drilling 100 holes

myself...

> Josue.

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--- In motmpanels@yahoogroups.com, "klinic2" <josue@A...> wrote:

>
> I like very much the stooge that the schaeffer, but at least for

me,

> will be a nightmare drilling 100 holes myself...

Drilling the holes will be a lot of work, for sure!

For me, the time would be worth it, though, because the MOTM panels
look nicer. I also like the consistency of using one type of panel.

The holes are certainly something to consider, though. I figure that
if we can save $100 with the Stooge panels, it's like getting paid
$25 bucks an hour to do the drilling.

If not enough people agree, though, I'll probably go with your
Schaeffer design.

--- In motmpanels@yahoogroups.com, "Josue Arias" <josue@A...> wrote:

> I got some ueg knobs...they can`t work ... the pots have a 6mm D
>shaft and the ueg`s are 1/4". We need smaller knobs, 10-11mm. max
>diameter.

The Radio Shack knobs may work. The part number is 274-415. They are
US $2.50 for 4 knobs.

Visually, they match the MOTM knobs, and they are very similar to the
knobs on the UEG. The knobs tighten with a small screwdriver instead
of a hex.

They should fit on the pots, if the pots have a 6mm D shaft. (I don't
have any pots to test yet.) 6mm is .24", close to the .25" UEG &
Radio Shack holes. Do you think the .01" would be a problem? It seems
like that would just be an extra turn on the screw.

The Radio Shack knobs are .75", so they will work with the .8" board
spacing. The UEG uses slightly wider spacing, maybe .875".

There are pros and cons to this size knobs. The .75" knobs match the
UEG and may feel a little better making fine adjustments, but they
might also feel more crowded. This is something we may need to try
with the pots mounted on the board.

.75" knobs would make tick marks impossible. The UEG doesn't have any
tick marks, and that's probably why. Those will need to come off,
unless there is a good smaller knob.

If you find knobs that you think will work better, let us know!

--- elle_webb <elle_webb@...> wrote:

> The UEG uses slightly wider spacing, maybe .875".

I am measureing about 0.860" to 0.865" on my UEG. But, that is error
prone since I am measuring from the knobs and not the actual pots.

> The UEG doesn't have any tick marks, and that's probably why.

Actually, the UEG has tick marks but no numbers. There is room at
0.86 inches. But, taking 6/100s from the UEG spacing will make a
significant difference since the gap is only about twice that on the
EUG.

Larry H




Those will need to come off,

> unless there is a good smaller knob.
>
> If you find knobs that you think will work better, let us know!
>
>
>
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--- In motmpanels@yahoogroups.com, Larry Hendry <hendrysr@y...> wrote:

>
> > The UEG doesn't have any tick marks, and that's probably why.
>
> Actually, the UEG has tick marks but no numbers. There is room at
> 0.86 inches.

You are right, as ever! I had to go and look, because I was sure
there weren't any!

I hadn't really paid attention to them - maybe because they are so
skinny. I like the MOTM ones better, and also the way MOTM's have the
thick and thin tick marks.

Either way, we won't have room on the Milton unless we go with
smaller knobs. The Korg Electribes have nice rubbery knobs that are
smaller in diameter, but I've never seen anything similar for sale.

We may have to experiment a little once the board & pots arrive....