Mellotronists

I haven't heard those Birotron samples on M-Tron but always thought the instrument was 
hard to hear on record (see Wakeman's CRIMINAL RECORD & Yes' TORMATO) very bass-ey 
and distant sounding. I heard that Biro used 2 Mellotrons to make the 8 track tapes, so 
you'd think that this potentially might've sounded good.
 I assume one could create their own Birotron sounds by looping Mellotron samples then 
lowering the fidelity (LP filter)

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "charel196" <charel196@...> wrote:
>
> I haven't heard those Birotron samples on M-Tron but always thought the instrument 
was 
> hard to hear on record (see Wakeman's CRIMINAL RECORD & Yes' TORMATO) very bass-
ey 
> and distant sounding. I heard that Biro used 2 Mellotrons to make the 8 track tapes, so 
> you'd think that this potentially might've sounded good.
>  I assume one could create their own Birotron sounds by looping Mellotron samples then 
> lowering the fidelity (LP filter)
>


(I've posted this reply once already but I have not seen it show up in the group messages, 
so please forgive me if it does in fact show up twice.)


I didn't know there were any Birotron samples on the M-Tron!  Let alone any Birotron 
samples anywere to be had in any format.

I didn't know there were any Birotron samples on the M-Tron!

Here's my little personal story about my "brush" with the Birotron.

(Again, I'm 52 years old now and I'll put a "senior moment" disclaimer here at the 
beginning just in case anyone here thinks/knows I've got some of this wrong, but this is 
my recollection of the events at that time when I was around all this)

In 1976 I was playing at the Holiday Inn of Bridgeport, CT in the lounge with a "Show Band" 
that played covers of pop music with a Husband and Wife team as the leaders and Front 
persons/Vocalists of the band. 

 I came down to the club one afternoon to turn on all my keyboards and synths to let them 
"warm up" before rehearsal that day.  (My live setup at that time consisted of my Mellotron 
M400 [Brass/String Section/8-Choir tapes], Hammond B3/Leslie 145, Polyfusion Modular 
synthesizer (serial number 2), Moog Modular Synthesizer 12, Minimoog, ARP String 
Ensemble, Hohner Clavinet D6, RMI Electra-Piano and Harpsichord 368 and a Fender 
Rhodes 73 Electric Piano.)

When I went to turn on the Mellotron there was a little green business card on the 
keyboard of my tron, it said "Ed Cohen Sales-Birotronics, a div of Rick Wakeman 
Industries".

I was dumbfounded since I had just read in Keyboard Magazine that same week, that there 
was this "new" Mellotron type keyboard that had tape loops and could hold notes longer 
than 8 seconds etc.  What an odd coincidence I thought.  I just read about this thing and 
now there's a business card for this guy involved with it sitting on my Mellotron.

Apparently Ed Cohen also managed a band named Whisper that did covers of Yes, Genesis 
and many of the prog artists of the era, as well as original music in the same progressive 
vein.  When he saw my large setup for live performance, he thought he'd try to get me to 
audition for Whisper since they needed a keyboard/synth guy and I obviously had the right 
tools for the job.

So, I called the phone number and spoke to Ed Cohen.  He told me that "he was the 
manager of the Prog Rock band named "Whisper" which was based in New Haven, CT and 
was also the manager of a band with a keyboard guy named David Biro...you might have 
heard of him".  "He invented what was supposed to be the much improved Mellotron and 
he named it the "Birotron""

Ed then told me the following story about the Birotron....

Instead of using tapes that had a fixed length and starting point like the Mellotron, he 
decided to use the old "8-Track" cartridges so that the sounds could loop indefinitely 
unlike the Mellotron where you only have about 7-8 seconds of sound playing then you 
have to release the key on the keyboard so the return springs on the tape frame could pull 
the tape back to it's starting point.  

While he did get around the 7-second limitation, he introduced a new problem.  Because 
the Mellotron (and Chamberlin..the original tape replay keyboard the Mellotron idea was 
er.."borrowed" from…another story that I'm sure you all know on this forum...) was NOT a 
continuous loop, it could really play ANY sound because the tape ALWAYS starts at the 
exact same starting point.  Therefore, percussion sounds like the tubular bells, sound 
effects, like those that I have currently in my Mellotron Mark V, as well as the other sounds 
in the Mellotron library like drums, vibes, guitar strums etc. would ALWAYS give you that 
percussive "hit" at the beginning of the sound which is why the sounded so realistic...the 
Mellotron let you hear the hit of the mallet on every note, or the articulation of the choir 
voices "Ahh" at the beginning of the notes.
 
Ed went on to say that basically "David Biro was a musician that did not have the money to 
afford his own Mellotron, so he went to an auto junk yard, bought 37 8 Track car tape 
players, borrowed a friends Mellotron (excellent player-Jeff Batter, I don't know about 
anyone else's Mellotron being recorded but it's possible), recorded all the notes/tracks of 
the sounds in the Mellotron onto 8 Track tape cartridges and then used an old piano 
keyboard he hollowed out, put switches on the keys that would then trigger each of the 
different 8 track car tape decks to play the correct pitch.  Crazy huh?"
 
Well the story goes like this.  Ed Cohen, brought this monstrosity (I guess it was a huge 
thing with all the 8 tack car decks in some kind of box) to a Yes concert in New Haven, got 
Rick Wakeman to take a look at it, and convinced Wakeman to invest in David Biro's 
"invention" and try to market and sell it as the "better mousetrap" advanced version of the 
Mellotron.
 
As I said earlier, he did get the sounds to play indefinitely, but the catch was, because you 
never knew where the tape was playing from since the 8 track cartridges were looped, you 
did not have that perfect attack of every possible type of sound that the Mellotron had.  
They did add a very limited Envelope Generator that had Attack and Decay, so you did 
have that, which was a good idea since on the Mellotron you really have to learn how to 
use your volume pedal to get smooth fades in and out and make it sound musical 
(Wakeman and Tony Banks were a few of the masters of that technique).
 
So while it did give you a perceived attack, it was never really as good as the Mellotron's 
(IMHO) ability to really give you the exact attack of ANY sound.  The Birotron did OK on 
stuff like strings, cello (still missing that initial bite, there too really) but I thought the 
attack of the Flute missing and the voices singing that first "Ahh" really diminished the 
realism of the great way the Mellotron flutes and vocals sound.
 
There were lots of mechanical problems with getting 8 track tapes to run consistent 
speeds when you had 37 of them running together, there were pitch problems I relating to 
I believe individual capstans (not totally sure about that but I remember something along 
that line) and the project never really got off the ground.
I know there were other business problems as well, (I heard rumors that it might have had 
to do with Wakeman's divorce, but I honestly don't know any details about that)  

I did see and hear Rick Wakeman use three or four Birotrons onstage in concert once and I 
thought they sounded terrible, at least what I could hear of them at all. Just like the 
previous poster "charel196" mentioned, I also thought it sounded "distant" and very 
"muddy".  I didn't think they came anywhere near sounding full and rich like the Mellotron 
did.  I wished he'd had Mellotrons at that show.
 
Many years later I told this story to David Kean, (who I had contacted when I was having 
problems with my Mellotron Mark V.  I finally met David Kean when I worked for E-mu 
Systems (Emu had a "after trade show" party at Dave Kean's studio when it was in North 
Hollywood, CA one year) and he had expressed an interest in getting his hands on a 
Birotron.  I told him that I did at one time have David Biro's phone number so I looked and 
found a very old phone book of mine that had David Biro's Mom's home phone number in 
CT.  At the time David Biro still lived there with his Mom.  Turns out that Dave Biro did 
have a Birotron still in his possession.  Dave Kean then called and thanked me.  He told me 
later that he bought David Biro's personal Birotron from him. Not sure what he paid for it.

Ironically, I heard from Ed Cohen over the past year and he mentioned that Dave Biro is 
living in Florida last he heard. 
Thru my relationship with Ed Cohen I eventually got to meet Rick Wakeman and Keith 
Emerson.  
I ended up demonstrating the Polyfusion Modular Synthesizers to both of them. Keith 
Emerson basically said, "he's never going to use anything other than Moog synths, due the 
relationship he had with Bob Moog. We took my entire Polyfusion Synth in multiple 
cabinets to Rick Wakeman's hotel room in New York, and he loved it so much he ordered a 
larger system based on what was in my personal system.
The problem was that Rick never paid for or took delivery of the system after they custom 
built it for him.  Talk about feeling stupid to the owners of Polyfusion.


Sorry for the length of the post and the off topics bit at the end regarding synthesizers

John

Very interesting story! Ed Cohen...I remember that name from my 
distant past. I think he used to book jobs for one of the bands I 
played in. Was "Whisper" also "Surprise" from Meriden in another 
incarnation?

Bernie

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "jaybe52000" <jaybe52000@...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "charel196" <charel196@> 
wrote:
> >
> > I haven't heard those Birotron samples on M-Tron but always 
thought the instrument 
> was 
> > hard to hear on record (see Wakeman's CRIMINAL RECORD & Yes' 
TORMATO) very bass-
> ey 
> > and distant sounding. I heard that Biro used 2 Mellotrons to 
make the 8 track tapes, so 
> > you'd think that this potentially might've sounded good.
> >  I assume one could create their own Birotron sounds by looping 
Mellotron samples then 
> > lowering the fidelity (LP filter)
> >
> 
> 
> (I've posted this reply once already but I have not seen it show 
up in the group messages, 
> so please forgive me if it does in fact show up twice.)
> 
> 
> I didn't know there were any Birotron samples on the M-Tron!  Let 
alone any Birotron 
> samples anywere to be had in any format.
> 
> I didn't know there were any Birotron samples on the M-Tron!
> 
> Here's my little personal story about my "brush" with the Birotron.
> 
> (Again, I'm 52 years old now and I'll put a "senior moment" 
disclaimer here at the 
> beginning just in case anyone here thinks/knows I've got some of 
this wrong, but this is 
> my recollection of the events at that time when I was around all 
this)
> 
> In 1976 I was playing at the Holiday Inn of Bridgeport, CT in the 
lounge with a "Show Band" 
> that played covers of pop music with a Husband and Wife team as 
the leaders and Front 
> persons/Vocalists of the band. 
> 
>  I came down to the club one afternoon to turn on all my keyboards 
and synths to let them 
> "warm up" before rehearsal that day.  (My live setup at that time 
consisted of my Mellotron 
> M400 [Brass/String Section/8-Choir tapes], Hammond B3/Leslie 145, 
Polyfusion Modular 
> synthesizer (serial number 2), Moog Modular Synthesizer 12, 
Minimoog, ARP String 
> Ensemble, Hohner Clavinet D6, RMI Electra-Piano and Harpsichord 
368 and a Fender 
> Rhodes 73 Electric Piano.)
> 
> When I went to turn on the Mellotron there was a little green 
business card on the 
> keyboard of my tron, it said "Ed Cohen Sales-Birotronics, a div of 
Rick Wakeman 
> Industries".
> 
> I was dumbfounded since I had just read in Keyboard Magazine that 
same week, that there 
> was this "new" Mellotron type keyboard that had tape loops and 
could hold notes longer 
> than 8 seconds etc.  What an odd coincidence I thought.  I just 
read about this thing and 
> now there's a business card for this guy involved with it sitting 
on my Mellotron.
> 
> Apparently Ed Cohen also managed a band named Whisper that did 
covers of Yes, Genesis 
> and many of the prog artists of the era, as well as original music 
in the same progressive 
> vein.  When he saw my large setup for live performance, he thought 
he'd try to get me to 
> audition for Whisper since they needed a keyboard/synth guy and I 
obviously had the right 
> tools for the job.
> 
> So, I called the phone number and spoke to Ed Cohen.  He told me 
that "he was the 
> manager of the Prog Rock band named "Whisper" which was based in 
New Haven, CT and 
> was also the manager of a band with a keyboard guy named David 
Biro...you might have 
> heard of him".  "He invented what was supposed to be the much 
improved Mellotron and 
> he named it the "Birotron""
> 
> Ed then told me the following story about the Birotron....
> 
> Instead of using tapes that had a fixed length and starting point 
like the Mellotron, he 
> decided to use the old "8-Track" cartridges so that the sounds 
could loop indefinitely 
> unlike the Mellotron where you only have about 7-8 seconds of 
sound playing then you 
> have to release the key on the keyboard so the return springs on 
the tape frame could pull 
> the tape back to it's starting point.  
> 
> While he did get around the 7-second limitation, he introduced a 
new problem.  Because 
> the Mellotron (and Chamberlin..the original tape replay keyboard 
the Mellotron idea was 
> er.."borrowed" from
another story that I'm sure you all know on 
this forum...) was NOT a 
> continuous loop, it could really play ANY sound because the tape 
ALWAYS starts at the 
> exact same starting point.  Therefore, percussion sounds like the 
tubular bells, sound 
> effects, like those that I have currently in my Mellotron Mark V, 
as well as the other sounds 
> in the Mellotron library like drums, vibes, guitar strums etc. 
would ALWAYS give you that 
> percussive "hit" at the beginning of the sound which is why the 
sounded so realistic...the 
> Mellotron let you hear the hit of the mallet on every note, or the 
articulation of the choir 
> voices "Ahh" at the beginning of the notes.
>  
> Ed went on to say that basically "David Biro was a musician that 
did not have the money to 
> afford his own Mellotron, so he went to an auto junk yard, bought 
37 8 Track car tape 
> players, borrowed a friends Mellotron (excellent player-Jeff 
Batter, I don't know about 
> anyone else's Mellotron being recorded but it's possible), 
recorded all the notes/tracks of 
> the sounds in the Mellotron onto 8 Track tape cartridges and then 
used an old piano 
> keyboard he hollowed out, put switches on the keys that would then 
trigger each of the 
> different 8 track car tape decks to play the correct pitch.  Crazy 
huh?"
>  
> Well the story goes like this.  Ed Cohen, brought this monstrosity 
(I guess it was a huge 
> thing with all the 8 tack car decks in some kind of box) to a Yes 
concert in New Haven, got 
> Rick Wakeman to take a look at it, and convinced Wakeman to invest 
in David Biro's 
> "invention" and try to market and sell it as the "better 
mousetrap" advanced version of the 
> Mellotron.
>  
> As I said earlier, he did get the sounds to play indefinitely, but 
the catch was, because you 
> never knew where the tape was playing from since the 8 track 
cartridges were looped, you 
> did not have that perfect attack of every possible type of sound 
that the Mellotron had.  
> They did add a very limited Envelope Generator that had Attack and 
Decay, so you did 
> have that, which was a good idea since on the Mellotron you really 
have to learn how to 
> use your volume pedal to get smooth fades in and out and make it 
sound musical 
> (Wakeman and Tony Banks were a few of the masters of that 
technique).
>  
> So while it did give you a perceived attack, it was never really 
as good as the Mellotron's 
> (IMHO) ability to really give you the exact attack of ANY sound.  
The Birotron did OK on 
> stuff like strings, cello (still missing that initial bite, there 
too really) but I thought the 
> attack of the Flute missing and the voices singing that 
first "Ahh" really diminished the 
> realism of the great way the Mellotron flutes and vocals sound.
>  
> There were lots of mechanical problems with getting 8 track tapes 
to run consistent 
> speeds when you had 37 of them running together, there were pitch 
problems I relating to 
> I believe individual capstans (not totally sure about that but I 
remember something along 
> that line) and the project never really got off the ground.
> I know there were other business problems as well, (I heard rumors 
that it might have had 
> to do with Wakeman's divorce, but I honestly don't know any 
details about that)  
> 
> I did see and hear Rick Wakeman use three or four Birotrons 
onstage in concert once and I 
> thought they sounded terrible, at least what I could hear of them 
at all. Just like the 
> previous poster "charel196" mentioned, I also thought it 
sounded "distant" and very 
> "muddy".  I didn't think they came anywhere near sounding full and 
rich like the Mellotron 
> did.  I wished he'd had Mellotrons at that show.
>  
> Many years later I told this story to David Kean, (who I had 
contacted when I was having 
> problems with my Mellotron Mark V.  I finally met David Kean when 
I worked for E-mu 
> Systems (Emu had a "after trade show" party at Dave Kean's studio 
when it was in North 
> Hollywood, CA one year) and he had expressed an interest in 
getting his hands on a 
> Birotron.  I told him that I did at one time have David Biro's 
phone number so I looked and 
> found a very old phone book of mine that had David Biro's Mom's 
home phone number in 
> CT.  At the time David Biro still lived there with his Mom.  Turns 
out that Dave Biro did 
> have a Birotron still in his possession.  Dave Kean then called 
and thanked me.  He told me 
> later that he bought David Biro's personal Birotron from him. Not 
sure what he paid for it.
> 
> Ironically, I heard from Ed Cohen over the past year and he 
mentioned that Dave Biro is 
> living in Florida last he heard. 
> Thru my relationship with Ed Cohen I eventually got to meet Rick 
Wakeman and Keith 
> Emerson.  
> I ended up demonstrating the Polyfusion Modular Synthesizers to 
both of them. Keith 
> Emerson basically said, "he's never going to use anything other 
than Moog synths, due the 
> relationship he had with Bob Moog. We took my entire Polyfusion 
Synth in multiple 
> cabinets to Rick Wakeman's hotel room in New York, and he loved it 
so much he ordered a 
> larger system based on what was in my personal system.
> The problem was that Rick never paid for or took delivery of the 
system after they custom 
> built it for him.  Talk about feeling stupid to the owners of 
Polyfusion.
> 
> 
> Sorry for the length of the post and the off topics bit at the end 
regarding synthesizers

> 
> John
>

Hey Bernie,

Whipser did have many incarnations before I joined the band in 1976.  
And you are correct in that Ed and his now ex wife Miriam Cohen were managing several 
bands in that area.

Surprise was one of the bands they managed in addition to Whisper.

However, what you may be thinking of is that the "version"of Whisper I was in, Ken 
Nessing, our frontman/Lead Singer was in the band Surprise, before joining us in whipser.

I've got a great overhead shot of me and my keyboard set up at a college in New Britian, 
CT I beleive it was.  I need to get that scanned so I can put it up on the photos section of 
this and a few other sites that have asked to see what the set up back then looked like.

I still can't believe we moved all that stuff ourselves back then without a road crew! 
Arrgghh.

Did we know each other back then Bernie?  We you also playing Mellotron back then in 
your bands from that area?  What was the name of the band you were in?

John

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "Bernie" <kornowicz@...> wrote:
>
> Very interesting story! Ed Cohen...I remember that name from my 
> distant past. I think he used to book jobs for one of the bands I 
> played in. Was "Whisper" also "Surprise" from Meriden in another 
> incarnation?
> 
> Bernie
> 
> --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "jaybe52000" <jaybe52000@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "charel196" <charel196@> 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I haven't heard those Birotron samples on M-Tron but always 
> thought the instrument 
> > was 
> > > hard to hear on record (see Wakeman's CRIMINAL RECORD & Yes' 
> TORMATO) very bass-
> > ey 
> > > and distant sounding. I heard that Biro used 2 Mellotrons to 
> make the 8 track tapes, so 
> > > you'd think that this potentially might've sounded good.
> > >  I assume one could create their own Birotron sounds by looping 
> Mellotron samples then 
> > > lowering the fidelity (LP filter)
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > (I've posted this reply once already but I have not seen it show 
> up in the group messages, 
> > so please forgive me if it does in fact show up twice.)
> > 
> > 
> > I didn't know there were any Birotron samples on the M-Tron!  Let 
> alone any Birotron 
> > samples anywere to be had in any format.
> > 
> > I didn't know there were any Birotron samples on the M-Tron!
> > 
> > Here's my little personal story about my "brush" with the Birotron.
> > 
> > (Again, I'm 52 years old now and I'll put a "senior moment" 
> disclaimer here at the 
> > beginning just in case anyone here thinks/knows I've got some of 
> this wrong, but this is 
> > my recollection of the events at that time when I was around all 
> this)
> > 
> > In 1976 I was playing at the Holiday Inn of Bridgeport, CT in the 
> lounge with a "Show Band" 
> > that played covers of pop music with a Husband and Wife team as 
> the leaders and Front 
> > persons/Vocalists of the band. 
> > 
> >  I came down to the club one afternoon to turn on all my keyboards 
> and synths to let them 
> > "warm up" before rehearsal that day.  (My live setup at that time 
> consisted of my Mellotron 
> > M400 [Brass/String Section/8-Choir tapes], Hammond B3/Leslie 145, 
> Polyfusion Modular 
> > synthesizer (serial number 2), Moog Modular Synthesizer 12, 
> Minimoog, ARP String 
> > Ensemble, Hohner Clavinet D6, RMI Electra-Piano and Harpsichord 
> 368 and a Fender 
> > Rhodes 73 Electric Piano.)
> > 
> > When I went to turn on the Mellotron there was a little green 
> business card on the 
> > keyboard of my tron, it said "Ed Cohen Sales-Birotronics, a div of 
> Rick Wakeman 
> > Industries".
> > 
> > I was dumbfounded since I had just read in Keyboard Magazine that 
> same week, that there 
> > was this "new" Mellotron type keyboard that had tape loops and 
> could hold notes longer 
> > than 8 seconds etc.  What an odd coincidence I thought.  I just 
> read about this thing and 
> > now there's a business card for this guy involved with it sitting 
> on my Mellotron.
> > 
> > Apparently Ed Cohen also managed a band named Whisper that did 
> covers of Yes, Genesis 
> > and many of the prog artists of the era, as well as original music 
> in the same progressive 
> > vein.  When he saw my large setup for live performance, he thought 
> he'd try to get me to 
> > audition for Whisper since they needed a keyboard/synth guy and I 
> obviously had the right 
> > tools for the job.
> > 
> > So, I called the phone number and spoke to Ed Cohen.  He told me 
> that "he was the 
> > manager of the Prog Rock band named "Whisper" which was based in 
> New Haven, CT and 
> > was also the manager of a band with a keyboard guy named David 
> Biro...you might have 
> > heard of him".  "He invented what was supposed to be the much 
> improved Mellotron and 
> > he named it the "Birotron""
> > 
> > Ed then told me the following story about the Birotron....
> > 
> > Instead of using tapes that had a fixed length and starting point 
> like the Mellotron, he 
> > decided to use the old "8-Track" cartridges so that the sounds 
> could loop indefinitely 
> > unlike the Mellotron where you only have about 7-8 seconds of 
> sound playing then you 
> > have to release the key on the keyboard so the return springs on 
> the tape frame could pull 
> > the tape back to it's starting point.  
> > 
> > While he did get around the 7-second limitation, he introduced a 
> new problem.  Because 
> > the Mellotron (and Chamberlin..the original tape replay keyboard 
> the Mellotron idea was 
> > er.."borrowed" from
another story that I'm sure you all know on 

> this forum...) was NOT a 
> > continuous loop, it could really play ANY sound because the tape 
> ALWAYS starts at the 
> > exact same starting point.  Therefore, percussion sounds like the 
> tubular bells, sound 
> > effects, like those that I have currently in my Mellotron Mark V, 
> as well as the other sounds 
> > in the Mellotron library like drums, vibes, guitar strums etc. 
> would ALWAYS give you that 
> > percussive "hit" at the beginning of the sound which is why the 
> sounded so realistic...the 
> > Mellotron let you hear the hit of the mallet on every note, or the 
> articulation of the choir 
> > voices "Ahh" at the beginning of the notes.
> >  
> > Ed went on to say that basically "David Biro was a musician that 
> did not have the money to 
> > afford his own Mellotron, so he went to an auto junk yard, bought 
> 37 8 Track car tape 
> > players, borrowed a friends Mellotron (excellent player-Jeff 
> Batter, I don't know about 
> > anyone else's Mellotron being recorded but it's possible), 
> recorded all the notes/tracks of 
> > the sounds in the Mellotron onto 8 Track tape cartridges and then 
> used an old piano 
> > keyboard he hollowed out, put switches on the keys that would then 
> trigger each of the 
> > different 8 track car tape decks to play the correct pitch.  Crazy 
> huh?"
> >  
> > Well the story goes like this.  Ed Cohen, brought this monstrosity 
> (I guess it was a huge 
> > thing with all the 8 tack car decks in some kind of box) to a Yes 
> concert in New Haven, got 
> > Rick Wakeman to take a look at it, and convinced Wakeman to invest 
> in David Biro's 
> > "invention" and try to market and sell it as the "better 
> mousetrap" advanced version of the 
> > Mellotron.
> >  
> > As I said earlier, he did get the sounds to play indefinitely, but 
> the catch was, because you 
> > never knew where the tape was playing from since the 8 track 
> cartridges were looped, you 
> > did not have that perfect attack of every possible type of sound 
> that the Mellotron had.  
> > They did add a very limited Envelope Generator that had Attack and 
> Decay, so you did 
> > have that, which was a good idea since on the Mellotron you really 
> have to learn how to 
> > use your volume pedal to get smooth fades in and out and make it 
> sound musical 
> > (Wakeman and Tony Banks were a few of the masters of that 
> technique).
> >  
> > So while it did give you a perceived attack, it was never really 
> as good as the Mellotron's 
> > (IMHO) ability to really give you the exact attack of ANY sound.  
> The Birotron did OK on 
> > stuff like strings, cello (still missing that initial bite, there 
> too really) but I thought the 
> > attack of the Flute missing and the voices singing that 
> first "Ahh" really diminished the 
> > realism of the great way the Mellotron flutes and vocals sound.
> >  
> > There were lots of mechanical problems with getting 8 track tapes 
> to run consistent 
> > speeds when you had 37 of them running together, there were pitch 
> problems I relating to 
> > I believe individual capstans (not totally sure about that but I 
> remember something along 
> > that line) and the project never really got off the ground.
> > I know there were other business problems as well, (I heard rumors 
> that it might have had 
> > to do with Wakeman's divorce, but I honestly don't know any 
> details about that)  
> > 
> > I did see and hear Rick Wakeman use three or four Birotrons 
> onstage in concert once and I 
> > thought they sounded terrible, at least what I could hear of them 
> at all. Just like the 
> > previous poster "charel196" mentioned, I also thought it 
> sounded "distant" and very 
> > "muddy".  I didn't think they came anywhere near sounding full and 
> rich like the Mellotron 
> > did.  I wished he'd had Mellotrons at that show.
> >  
> > Many years later I told this story to David Kean, (who I had 
> contacted when I was having 
> > problems with my Mellotron Mark V.  I finally met David Kean when 
> I worked for E-mu 
> > Systems (Emu had a "after trade show" party at Dave Kean's studio 
> when it was in North 
> > Hollywood, CA one year) and he had expressed an interest in 
> getting his hands on a 
> > Birotron.  I told him that I did at one time have David Biro's 
> phone number so I looked and 
> > found a very old phone book of mine that had David Biro's Mom's 
> home phone number in 
> > CT.  At the time David Biro still lived there with his Mom.  Turns 
> out that Dave Biro did 
> > have a Birotron still in his possession.  Dave Kean then called 
> and thanked me.  He told me 
> > later that he bought David Biro's personal Birotron from him. Not 
> sure what he paid for it.
> > 
> > Ironically, I heard from Ed Cohen over the past year and he 
> mentioned that Dave Biro is 
> > living in Florida last he heard. 
> > Thru my relationship with Ed Cohen I eventually got to meet Rick 
> Wakeman and Keith 
> > Emerson.  
> > I ended up demonstrating the Polyfusion Modular Synthesizers to 
> both of them. Keith 
> > Emerson basically said, "he's never going to use anything other 
> than Moog synths, due the 
> > relationship he had with Bob Moog. We took my entire Polyfusion 
> Synth in multiple 
> > cabinets to Rick Wakeman's hotel room in New York, and he loved it 
> so much he ordered a 
> > larger system based on what was in my personal system.
> > The problem was that Rick never paid for or took delivery of the 
> system after they custom 
> > built it for him.  Talk about feeling stupid to the owners of 
> Polyfusion.
> > 
> > 
> > Sorry for the length of the post and the off topics bit at the end 
> regarding synthesizers
> > 
> > John
> >
>

> >Hi John/Bernie/all:

If this is accurate then it's the second Birotron Dave Kean purchased.

Dave got his first Birotron in 1991 from a fellow named Mike Ayoub who lived in Detroit,Michigan. Mike offered the Birotron to Dave after helping him find his first mellotron 400.

In 1990 I purchased a Minimoog from Mike and at that time he also offered to sell me Rick Wakeman's double mellotron (proto MkV), this same Birotron, a Mander pipe organ, a BX3, as well as the guts from the B3 that was at Woodstock 69.

I turned these items down as the Minimoog was all I wanted at the time.

These items were also in various states of disrepair, and the Birotron was missing tapes / semi functional at best. When I called him later for some advice in tuning the Minimoog he mentioned the Birotron had been sold it to Dave. This is the unit that appears in his "Workings" video.

I guess the point is that it suggests there are probably more Birotrons out there. According to Wakeman 35 were made, whether they were fully functional or not is another story.

Chris

>
> >
>
> Many years later I told this story to David Kean, (who I had
contacted when I was having
> problems with my Mellotron Mark V. I finally met David Kean when
I worked for E-mu
> Systems (Emu had a "after trade show" party at Dave Kean's studio
when it was in North
> Hollywood, CA one year) and he had expressed an interest in
getting his hands on a
> Birotron. I told him that I did at one time have David Biro's
phone number so I looked and
> found a very old phone book of mine that had David Biro's Mom's
home phone number in
> CT. At the time David Biro still lived there with his Mom. Turns
out that Dave Biro did
> have a Birotron still in his possession. Dave Kean then called
and thanked me. He told me
> later that he bought David Biro's personal Birotron from him. Not
sure what he paid for it.
>
> Ironically, I heard from Ed Cohen over the past year and he
mentioned that Dave Biro is
> living in Florida last he heard.
> Thru my relationship with Ed Cohen I eventually got to meet Rick
Wakeman and Keith
> Emerson.
> I ended up demonstrating the Polyfusion Modular Synthesizers to
both of them. Keith
> Emerson basically said, "he's never going to use anything other
than Moog synths, due the
> relationship he had with Bob Moog. We took my entire Polyfusion
Synth in multiple
> cabinets to Rick Wakeman's hotel room in New York, and he loved it
so much he ordered a
> larger system based on what was in my personal system.
> The problem was that Rick never paid for or took delivery of the
system after they custom
> built it for him. Talk about feeling stupid to the owners of
Polyfusion.
>
>
> Sorry for the length of the post and the off topics bit at the end
regarding synthesizers
>
> John
>

Hi John,

Wow! Ed and Miriam Cohen. Now I remember (though vaguely)! They used 
to book the band I was playing with at the time, Charisma, although 
they didn't manage us. I also recognize the name Ken Nessing. This 
is a shrinking world! I didn't play keyboards; I played bass guitar 
(ask Fritz about those things). Our keyboardist was Mike Reynolds. 
His keyboard setup was a little smaller than yours; merely a 
B3/Leslie 122, a Univox Mini-Korg (I recently picked one up on 
eBay), an RMI electric piano and an M400S Mellotron, #500, which is 
now sitting about 3 feet away from me. It was one of those white 
jobs but now looks like this, thanks to Jerry Korb, who did an 
incredible restoration of it last year:

http://www.kleonard.com/mellotron/mpsum05/500-4.htm

I look forward to seeing the photo of you and your keyboard setup 
from Central Connecticut State Teachers College. That is the 
college, isn't it?

Bernie


--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "jaybe52000" <jaybe52000@...> 
wrote:
>
> Hey Bernie,
> 
> Whipser did have many incarnations before I joined the band in 
1976.  
> And you are correct in that Ed and his now ex wife Miriam Cohen 
were managing several 
> bands in that area.
> 
> Surprise was one of the bands they managed in addition to Whisper.
> 
> However, what you may be thinking of is that the "version"of 
Whisper I was in, Ken 
> Nessing, our frontman/Lead Singer was in the band Surprise, before 
joining us in whipser.
> 
> I've got a great overhead shot of me and my keyboard set up at a 
college in New Britian, 
> CT I beleive it was.  I need to get that scanned so I can put it 
up on the photos section of 
> this and a few other sites that have asked to see what the set up 
back then looked like.
> 
> I still can't believe we moved all that stuff ourselves back then 
without a road crew! 
> Arrgghh.
> 
> Did we know each other back then Bernie?  We you also playing 
Mellotron back then in 
> your bands from that area?  What was the name of the band you were 
in?
> 
> John
> 
> --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "Bernie" <kornowicz@> wrote:
> >
> > Very interesting story! Ed Cohen...I remember that name from my 
> > distant past. I think he used to book jobs for one of the bands 
I 
> > played in. Was "Whisper" also "Surprise" from Meriden in another 
> > incarnation?
> > 
> > Bernie
> > 
> > --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "jaybe52000" <jaybe52000@> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "charel196" <charel196@> 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I haven't heard those Birotron samples on M-Tron but always 
> > thought the instrument 
> > > was 
> > > > hard to hear on record (see Wakeman's CRIMINAL RECORD & Yes' 
> > TORMATO) very bass-
> > > ey 
> > > > and distant sounding. I heard that Biro used 2 Mellotrons to 
> > make the 8 track tapes, so 
> > > > you'd think that this potentially might've sounded good.
> > > >  I assume one could create their own Birotron sounds by 
looping 
> > Mellotron samples then 
> > > > lowering the fidelity (LP filter)
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > (I've posted this reply once already but I have not seen it 
show 
> > up in the group messages, 
> > > so please forgive me if it does in fact show up twice.)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I didn't know there were any Birotron samples on the M-Tron!  
Let 
> > alone any Birotron 
> > > samples anywere to be had in any format.
> > > 
> > > I didn't know there were any Birotron samples on the M-Tron!
> > > 
> > > Here's my little personal story about my "brush" with the 
Birotron.
> > > 
> > > (Again, I'm 52 years old now and I'll put a "senior moment" 
> > disclaimer here at the 
> > > beginning just in case anyone here thinks/knows I've got some 
of 
> > this wrong, but this is 
> > > my recollection of the events at that time when I was around 
all 
> > this)
> > > 
> > > In 1976 I was playing at the Holiday Inn of Bridgeport, CT in 
the 
> > lounge with a "Show Band" 
> > > that played covers of pop music with a Husband and Wife team 
as 
> > the leaders and Front 
> > > persons/Vocalists of the band. 
> > > 
> > >  I came down to the club one afternoon to turn on all my 
keyboards 
> > and synths to let them 
> > > "warm up" before rehearsal that day.  (My live setup at that 
time 
> > consisted of my Mellotron 
> > > M400 [Brass/String Section/8-Choir tapes], Hammond B3/Leslie 
145, 
> > Polyfusion Modular 
> > > synthesizer (serial number 2), Moog Modular Synthesizer 12, 
> > Minimoog, ARP String 
> > > Ensemble, Hohner Clavinet D6, RMI Electra-Piano and 
Harpsichord 
> > 368 and a Fender 
> > > Rhodes 73 Electric Piano.)
> > > 
> > > When I went to turn on the Mellotron there was a little green 
> > business card on the 
> > > keyboard of my tron, it said "Ed Cohen Sales-Birotronics, a 
div of 
> > Rick Wakeman 
> > > Industries".
> > > 
> > > I was dumbfounded since I had just read in Keyboard Magazine 
that 
> > same week, that there 
> > > was this "new" Mellotron type keyboard that had tape loops and 
> > could hold notes longer 
> > > than 8 seconds etc.  What an odd coincidence I thought.  I 
just 
> > read about this thing and 
> > > now there's a business card for this guy involved with it 
sitting 
> > on my Mellotron.
> > > 
> > > Apparently Ed Cohen also managed a band named Whisper that did 
> > covers of Yes, Genesis 
> > > and many of the prog artists of the era, as well as original 
music 
> > in the same progressive 
> > > vein.  When he saw my large setup for live performance, he 
thought 
> > he'd try to get me to 
> > > audition for Whisper since they needed a keyboard/synth guy 
and I 
> > obviously had the right 
> > > tools for the job.
> > > 
> > > So, I called the phone number and spoke to Ed Cohen.  He told 
me 
> > that "he was the 
> > > manager of the Prog Rock band named "Whisper" which was based 
in 
> > New Haven, CT and 
> > > was also the manager of a band with a keyboard guy named David 
> > Biro...you might have 
> > > heard of him".  "He invented what was supposed to be the much 
> > improved Mellotron and 
> > > he named it the "Birotron""
> > > 
> > > Ed then told me the following story about the Birotron....
> > > 
> > > Instead of using tapes that had a fixed length and starting 
point 
> > like the Mellotron, he 
> > > decided to use the old "8-Track" cartridges so that the sounds 
> > could loop indefinitely 
> > > unlike the Mellotron where you only have about 7-8 seconds of 
> > sound playing then you 
> > > have to release the key on the keyboard so the return springs 
on 
> > the tape frame could pull 
> > > the tape back to it's starting point.  
> > > 
> > > While he did get around the 7-second limitation, he introduced 
a 
> > new problem.  Because 
> > > the Mellotron (and Chamberlin..the original tape replay 
keyboard 
> > the Mellotron idea was 
> > > er.."borrowed" from
another story that I'm sure you all know 
on 
> > this forum...) was NOT a 
> > > continuous loop, it could really play ANY sound because the 
tape 
> > ALWAYS starts at the 
> > > exact same starting point.  Therefore, percussion sounds like 
the 
> > tubular bells, sound 
> > > effects, like those that I have currently in my Mellotron Mark 
V, 
> > as well as the other sounds 
> > > in the Mellotron library like drums, vibes, guitar strums etc. 
> > would ALWAYS give you that 
> > > percussive "hit" at the beginning of the sound which is why 
the 
> > sounded so realistic...the 
> > > Mellotron let you hear the hit of the mallet on every note, or 
the 
> > articulation of the choir 
> > > voices "Ahh" at the beginning of the notes.
> > >  
> > > Ed went on to say that basically "David Biro was a musician 
that 
> > did not have the money to 
> > > afford his own Mellotron, so he went to an auto junk yard, 
bought 
> > 37 8 Track car tape 
> > > players, borrowed a friends Mellotron (excellent player-Jeff 
> > Batter, I don't know about 
> > > anyone else's Mellotron being recorded but it's possible), 
> > recorded all the notes/tracks of 
> > > the sounds in the Mellotron onto 8 Track tape cartridges and 
then 
> > used an old piano 
> > > keyboard he hollowed out, put switches on the keys that would 
then 
> > trigger each of the 
> > > different 8 track car tape decks to play the correct pitch.  
Crazy 
> > huh?"
> > >  
> > > Well the story goes like this.  Ed Cohen, brought this 
monstrosity 
> > (I guess it was a huge 
> > > thing with all the 8 tack car decks in some kind of box) to a 
Yes 
> > concert in New Haven, got 
> > > Rick Wakeman to take a look at it, and convinced Wakeman to 
invest 
> > in David Biro's 
> > > "invention" and try to market and sell it as the "better 
> > mousetrap" advanced version of the 
> > > Mellotron.
> > >  
> > > As I said earlier, he did get the sounds to play indefinitely, 
but 
> > the catch was, because you 
> > > never knew where the tape was playing from since the 8 track 
> > cartridges were looped, you 
> > > did not have that perfect attack of every possible type of 
sound 
> > that the Mellotron had.  
> > > They did add a very limited Envelope Generator that had Attack 
and 
> > Decay, so you did 
> > > have that, which was a good idea since on the Mellotron you 
really 
> > have to learn how to 
> > > use your volume pedal to get smooth fades in and out and make 
it 
> > sound musical 
> > > (Wakeman and Tony Banks were a few of the masters of that 
> > technique).
> > >  
> > > So while it did give you a perceived attack, it was never 
really 
> > as good as the Mellotron's 
> > > (IMHO) ability to really give you the exact attack of ANY 
sound.  
> > The Birotron did OK on 
> > > stuff like strings, cello (still missing that initial bite, 
there 
> > too really) but I thought the 
> > > attack of the Flute missing and the voices singing that 
> > first "Ahh" really diminished the 
> > > realism of the great way the Mellotron flutes and vocals sound.
> > >  
> > > There were lots of mechanical problems with getting 8 track 
tapes 
> > to run consistent 
> > > speeds when you had 37 of them running together, there were 
pitch 
> > problems I relating to 
> > > I believe individual capstans (not totally sure about that but 
I 
> > remember something along 
> > > that line) and the project never really got off the ground.
> > > I know there were other business problems as well, (I heard 
rumors 
> > that it might have had 
> > > to do with Wakeman's divorce, but I honestly don't know any 
> > details about that)  
> > > 
> > > I did see and hear Rick Wakeman use three or four Birotrons 
> > onstage in concert once and I 
> > > thought they sounded terrible, at least what I could hear of 
them 
> > at all. Just like the 
> > > previous poster "charel196" mentioned, I also thought it 
> > sounded "distant" and very 
> > > "muddy".  I didn't think they came anywhere near sounding full 
and 
> > rich like the Mellotron 
> > > did.  I wished he'd had Mellotrons at that show.
> > >  
> > > Many years later I told this story to David Kean, (who I had 
> > contacted when I was having 
> > > problems with my Mellotron Mark V.  I finally met David Kean 
when 
> > I worked for E-mu 
> > > Systems (Emu had a "after trade show" party at Dave Kean's 
studio 
> > when it was in North 
> > > Hollywood, CA one year) and he had expressed an interest in 
> > getting his hands on a 
> > > Birotron.  I told him that I did at one time have David Biro's 
> > phone number so I looked and 
> > > found a very old phone book of mine that had David Biro's 
Mom's 
> > home phone number in 
> > > CT.  At the time David Biro still lived there with his Mom.  
Turns 
> > out that Dave Biro did 
> > > have a Birotron still in his possession.  Dave Kean then 
called 
> > and thanked me.  He told me 
> > > later that he bought David Biro's personal Birotron from him. 
Not 
> > sure what he paid for it.
> > > 
> > > Ironically, I heard from Ed Cohen over the past year and he 
> > mentioned that Dave Biro is 
> > > living in Florida last he heard. 
> > > Thru my relationship with Ed Cohen I eventually got to meet 
Rick 
> > Wakeman and Keith 
> > > Emerson.  
> > > I ended up demonstrating the Polyfusion Modular Synthesizers 
to 
> > both of them. Keith 
> > > Emerson basically said, "he's never going to use anything 
other 
> > than Moog synths, due the 
> > > relationship he had with Bob Moog. We took my entire 
Polyfusion 
> > Synth in multiple 
> > > cabinets to Rick Wakeman's hotel room in New York, and he 
loved it 
> > so much he ordered a 
> > > larger system based on what was in my personal system.
> > > The problem was that Rick never paid for or took delivery of 
the 
> > system after they custom 
> > > built it for him.  Talk about feeling stupid to the owners of 
> > Polyfusion.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Sorry for the length of the post and the off topics bit at the 
end 

> > regarding synthesizers
> > > 
> > > John
> > >
> >
>

In a message dated 11/28/2006 3:25:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
jaybe52000@... writes:

I  still can't believe we moved all that stuff ourselves back then without a 
road  crew! 
Arrgghh.



I can't believe you hauled all that stuff to the Holiday Inn. I  would love 
to have been there for that!
 
Frank

Hi Bernie,

Yep, that's them. Ed and Miriam.  I also (though vaguely), remember your band Charisma 
from that time as well.

I'm not sure of the name of the college in New Britian, it could have been Central 
Connecticut State Teachers College, I really dont't remember.  Whisper played LOTS of 
college gigs.  Many of them were Univ. of CT campuses.

I am originally from the Boston area, and was touring all over the east coast with that 
"dynamite show band---Dazzle"  , when we were at the Bridgeport Holiday Inn where i 
first met Ed Cohen.  

The next gig I had with Dazzle was the Sheraton Pocono Inn, Stroudsburg, PA.  Much to 
the dismay of Dazzle, Ed Cohen brought Ken Nessing (Vocals), Nick Lundbech (Guitars, 
Primary Songwriter, singer and Frank Grande (Bass) to meet me at that gig and watched 
play a set or two.   The Dazzle Singers/band leaders, smugly said to me (after Ed and the 
"Whisper Guys" had headed back to CT) "did you pass the audition"?.  Kinda pissed me off, 
but in retrospect, how else could they have felt? I did want to play originals and more prog 
rock than "show tunes".
They really built a good portion of the show around the instruments I had, which let's face 
it, was way more than any "club musician" owned back in those days, let alone would drag 
all over the place.

Since I had  Two Analog Sequencers in the Polyfusion modular and the Trumpet player in 
the band also would play the Fender Rhodes or ARP String Ensemble in certain songs, we 
could really cover many pop/top 40 tunes to a very exacting degree. Plus, having both the 
ARP (Eminent Solina) String Ensemble and my M400 at the time, I learned about layering 
"Synth Strings" with "Sampled Strings" which ironically is very useful now with the plethora 
of string samples and synthesizers that can be MIDIed together.  

They other good thing about that gig was that I was playing everynight with a guy that was 
a trumpet and flute player.  

Even though I had the Mellotron Brass in my M400,(which I used very little except for a few  
of our original songs and Genesis songs like "Watcher of the Skies", "Willow Farm", Yes' 
songs from "Close to the Edge",  like "And You and I" , "Siberian Khartu", etc.  

When Frank Levi at DMI in Mah Wah, NJ installed my first "new" custom tape frame in my 
M400, the first time I heard the sounds I was in heaven.  Playing the string section versus 
the original 3 Violins was so "meaty" I instantly understood why Wakeman and Banks used 
them as their strings.
Of course then playing the 8 choir,  I was so happy with the sound, it was better than I 
even thought it would be in person compared to the recordings I'd heard them on.  
Then I played the Brass....WHHHATTT......the hell is that sound?????

I was looking at Frank and he says. "that's the Mellotron Brass"  My jaw dropped to the 
floor.  I HATED the sound.  Oh how I wanted my flute or Cello track back.  LOL
Frank then proceeded to remind me of some of albums where the brass sounds were used, 
and it was one of the "mystery sounds: I HAD heard on so many Genesis, Yes, Strawbs, etc. 
recordings.
Still didn't make me like it anymore at that moment, but at least I started to get an idea of 
what to do with it.

I was expecting, the kind of "Brass" I created on my Moogs and Polyfusion.  Big, FAT, 
punchy, analog "brass" sounds.  (don't know why I assumed that..but I did).
Not this nasal, "couple a drunk guys playing saxophones on a street corner" kinda sound.   
That was my first impression of the Brass tapes.

I was fortunate to have a Moog Modular 952 Duophonic keyboard (later replaced by by a 
Polyfusion Modular Duophonic keyboard controller) that I had to play all the Polyfusion 
and Moog Modular modules with.  In addition, by using my Minimoog with my other hand, 
I could play 3 notes "polyphonically" since this was before the Prophet 5/Oberheim 4 voice 
was produced.  

By listening to our "real" trumpet player on stage every night, I really got my synth brass 
chops going pretty well.  By having him play the trumpet leads, I would make up the 
"backing horns" playing two notes on the modular and the third on the Minimoog.  
This gave us a sort of "4 piece" section.  Having just that one real trumpet on top made 
everything I did trick the ear into hearing the whole section since you saw a guy blowing 
into at trumpet.  We always had other horn players coming up to him asking him, "How'd 
he get his trumpet to sound like it was playing four parts at once.  That's when I knew I 
was doing good, none of them even thought the "keyboard player" had anything to do with 
the brass coming off the stage.  
I did from time to time use the Mellotron Brass combined witha two note chord on the 
modular synths as well once I got my head around the brass tapes and started liking them.

I still think of that everytime I see Paul Shaeffer on David Letterman beef up his brass 
section guys with the brass patch/program on his JD-800. (Another synth I own and love 
for the same reason, great brass and strings programs)

One of my favorite memories from playing with Dazzle was when we would do a "Neil 
Diamond Medley"  There was one gig in particular where there were several elderly women 
at a table in the front, well when I hit the Mellotron using the 8 Choir full blast during 
"Brother Love's Travelling Show"  the look on their faces was priceless!  LOL  I could hear 
them saying later "that sounded like a whole choir, How'd they do that????"  Ah yes, the 
days of audience "innocence" when no one knew what a mellotron was, let alone how 
everyone today knows about or owns a sampler/computer with samples,  etc.

Anyhow..back to things more totally Mellotronic...

I LOVE YOUR M400 #500!!! 
As usual "Dr." Jerry Korb did an incredible job on your machine.
just beautiful.  So lucky that it was real wood and not the usual chipboard.
That's so great that you got the Mellotron that was in your band.  At least you knew where 
it came from!

I had the pleasure of meeting Jerry and Mali when they were in the neighborhood last year 
with Ken Leonard.  Of course I've seen all the great pics and stories Ken has put on the 
"MONEYPIT" site.  

I'd like to have my Mark V get the Jerry Korb treatment, but I just can't part with it for any 
extended period of time, letting it go to Vermont is something I just can't do in the short 
term.  It not just the fact that it will be gone for awhile, but moving the Mark V is a lot 
more of a pain than the M400's are.  Maybe not as bad as a MK I or MK II, but, believe me 
the Cripple Creek (Anvil Type) road case this thing came with could be used as a house for 
a small family.  LOL  Getting the thing down the stairs to my new studio was pretty hard 
with several pro movers here over the summer, so i know I won't be taking it anywhere 
soon if I can help it.  (Hope I didn't just jinx myself and it stops working now....)
I will say it's a real comfort know that Jerry IS just a semi short drive from where I live, 
versus all the years I lived in Malibu, California..3000 miles further away form Jerry.  :-)

BTW my Moneypit story is also on Ken's website if any of you would like to see some pics 
of my Mark V #117.  There's also a few pics of Jerry and Mali looking at it before he got Pat 
Moraz' old Mark V up to Vermont.

Here's the link:
http://www.kleonard.com/mellotron/mpb050604/index.htm

If you follow Ken's various links in "my story" you'll also see some of the other gear in my 
studio (these are from my last place, I moved to a new house/studio this past August.  I'll 
put some photos of the new digs up on this site if that's ok..of course the Mellotron Mark 
V wil be in the pics!)

John






--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "Bernie" <kornowicz@...> wrote:

>
> Hi John,
> 
> Wow! Ed and Miriam Cohen. Now I remember (though vaguely)! They used 
> to book the band I was playing with at the time, Charisma, although 
> they didn't manage us. I also recognize the name Ken Nessing. This 
> is a shrinking world! I didn't play keyboards; I played bass guitar 
> (ask Fritz about those things). Our keyboardist was Mike Reynolds. 
> His keyboard setup was a little smaller than yours; merely a 
> B3/Leslie 122, a Univox Mini-Korg (I recently picked one up on 
> eBay), an RMI electric piano and an M400S Mellotron, #500, which is 
> now sitting about 3 feet away from me. It was one of those white 
> jobs but now looks like this, thanks to Jerry Korb, who did an 
> incredible restoration of it last year:
> 
> http://www.kleonard.com/mellotron/mpsum05/500-4.htm
> 
> I look forward to seeing the photo of you and your keyboard setup 
> from Central Connecticut State Teachers College. That is the 
> college, isn't it?
> 
> Bernie
> 
> 
> --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "jaybe52000" <jaybe52000@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Bernie,
> > 
> > Whipser did have many incarnations before I joined the band in 
> 1976.  
> > And you are correct in that Ed and his now ex wife Miriam Cohen 
> were managing several 
> > bands in that area.
> > 
> > Surprise was one of the bands they managed in addition to Whisper.
> > 
> > However, what you may be thinking of is that the "version"of 
> Whisper I was in, Ken 
> > Nessing, our frontman/Lead Singer was in the band Surprise, before 
> joining us in whipser.
> > 
> > I've got a great overhead shot of me and my keyboard set up at a 
> college in New Britian, 
> > CT I beleive it was.  I need to get that scanned so I can put it 
> up on the photos section of 
> > this and a few other sites that have asked to see what the set up 
> back then looked like.
> > 
> > I still can't believe we moved all that stuff ourselves back then 
> without a road crew! 
> > Arrgghh.
> > 
> > Did we know each other back then Bernie?  We you also playing 
> Mellotron back then in 
> > your bands from that area?  What was the name of the band you were 
> in?
> > 
> > John
> > 
> > --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "Bernie" <kornowicz@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Very interesting story! Ed Cohen...I remember that name from my 
> > > distant past. I think he used to book jobs for one of the bands 
> I 
> > > played in. Was "Whisper" also "Surprise" from Meriden in another 
> > > incarnation?
> > > 
> > > Bernie

Hi Chris,

I had not heard about this second Birotron Dave Kean got. 

Dave Kean led me to believe that he never had been able to get a Birotron and that my 
giving him David Biro's phone number helped him get his first Birotron. He led me to 
believe that he got it from Dave Biro. I do believe this was before 1991, but I could be 
wrong.  I did live thru the '60 & '70's  ;-)

It could have been a second Birotron since I started working for E-mu Systems around 
1988 thru the 1990's the same time period of when you stated he got this other Birotron, 
from Mike Ayoub in Detroit around 1991.
On the other hand,  It could be the same unit.  I was only going by what Dave Kean said to 
me.  

It's entirely possible that Dave Biro connected him with Mike Ayoub and that's really where 
he got the unit he told me he got "from Dave Biro".  
Or as you suggest, there could have been two that Dave Kean had gotten hold of.

I guess only Dave Kean or Dave Biro would have the real story.  I have not talked to either 
of the "Dave's" in quite a long time.

You do bring up an interesting point though..maybe Rick Wakeman's estimate of 35 being 
produced versus Dave Biro's 13 produced, is a clue that there are probably more Birotrons 
out there than we think.

As I said, I'm 52 and this stuff happened to me 30 years ago.  I do have my senior 
moments as well ;-)  I'd be curious to know if Dave Kean did did actually get two.

I can call Ed Cohen and see what his take on all this is.  He may or may not know anything 
about Dave Kean, but he could have more info on the Birotron(s) that Dave Biro did have.

John




--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, <chris.dale@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
>   > >Hi John/Bernie/all:
> 
> 
> 
>   If this is accurate then it's the second Birotron Dave Kean purchased. 
> 
>   Dave got his first Birotron in 1991 from a fellow named Mike Ayoub who lived in 
Detroit,Michigan. Mike offered the Birotron to Dave after helping him find his first 
mellotron 400. 
> 
>   In 1990 I purchased a Minimoog from Mike and at that time he also offered to sell me 
Rick Wakeman's double mellotron (proto MkV), this same Birotron, a Mander pipe organ, a 
BX3, as well as the guts from the B3 that was at Woodstock 69.
> 
>    I turned these items down as the Minimoog was all I wanted at the time. 
> 
>   These items were also in various states of disrepair, and the Birotron was missing 
tapes / semi functional at best. When I called him later for some advice in tuning the 
Minimoog he mentioned the Birotron had been sold it to Dave. This is the unit that 
appears in his "Workings" video.
> 
>   I guess the point is that it suggests there are probably more Birotrons out there. 
According to Wakeman 35 were made, whether they were fully functional or not is another 
story.

> 
> 
> 
>   Chris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   > 
>   > > 
>   > 
>   > Many years later I told this story to David Kean, (who I had 
>   contacted when I was having 
>   > problems with my Mellotron Mark V. I finally met David Kean when 
>   I worked for E-mu 
>   > Systems (Emu had a "after trade show" party at Dave Kean's studio 
>   when it was in North 
>   > Hollywood, CA one year) and he had expressed an interest in 
>   getting his hands on a 
>   > Birotron. I told him that I did at one time have David Biro's 
>   phone number so I looked and 
>   > found a very old phone book of mine that had David Biro's Mom's 
>   home phone number in 
>   > CT. At the time David Biro still lived there with his Mom. Turns 
>   out that Dave Biro did 
>   > have a Birotron still in his possession. Dave Kean then called 
>   and thanked me. He told me 
>   > later that he bought David Biro's personal Birotron from him. Not 
>   sure what he paid for it.
>   > 
>   > Ironically, I heard from Ed Cohen over the past year and he 
>   mentioned that Dave Biro is 
>   > living in Florida last he heard. 
>   > Thru my relationship with Ed Cohen I eventually got to meet Rick 
>   Wakeman and Keith 
>   > Emerson. 
>   > I ended up demonstrating the Polyfusion Modular Synthesizers to 
>   both of them. Keith 
>   > Emerson basically said, "he's never going to use anything other 
>   than Moog synths, due the 
>   > relationship he had with Bob Moog. We took my entire Polyfusion 
>   Synth in multiple 
>   > cabinets to Rick Wakeman's hotel room in New York, and he loved it 
>   so much he ordered a 
>   > larger system based on what was in my personal system.
>   > The problem was that Rick never paid for or took delivery of the 
>   system after they custom 
>   > built it for him. Talk about feeling stupid to the owners of 
>   Polyfusion.
>   > 
>   > 
>   > Sorry for the length of the post and the off topics bit at the end 
>   regarding synthesizers
>   > 
>   > John
>   >
>

Thanks!  Glad to hear you found it interesting.

I wasn't sure if I was taking up too much bandwidth here.  LOL

I've started informally writing my own little autobiography about what I've done behind the 
scenes so to speak in the synth/sampling industry.  So anything anyone thinks I've got 
wrong or knows something differently from what I'm remembering always glad to hear 
other's perspective/thoughts.

Sorry it's taken me so long to start posting on the group.  

John


--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, lsf5275@... wrote:

>
>  
> In a message dated 11/28/2006 6:11:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> jaybe52000@... writes:
> 
> Sorry  for the length of the post and the off topics bit at the end regarding 
>  synthesizers
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> Fascinating!
>

In a message dated 29/11/2006 07:40:51 GMT Standard Time,  
chris.dale@... writes:

According to Wakeman 35 were made


More like 13!
 
Martin
 
STREETLY ELECTRONICS - All Things Mellotronic

_www.mellotronics.co.uk_ (http://www.mellotronics.co.uk/) 
_www.mellotronics.com_ (http://www.mellotronics.com/) 
US  East Coast Agent - Jimmy Moore _jmoore6397@..._ 
(http://jmoore6397@.../) 
US West  Coast Agent - Paul Cox _pjc56@..._ 
(http://pjc56@.../)

Supposedly Steve Howe once substituted his favourite 8 track tapes 
for the Birotron tapes on Rick Wakeman's instrument on a Yes 
recording session. Rick came back into the studio after going to the 
loo, started playing, and the results were (to put it mildly) 
surreal. Rick was not impressed by quadraphonic Seals and Crofts 
sounds instead of strings!

Dave.

>Hi Chris,
>
>I had not heard about this second Birotron Dave Kean got.
>
>Dave Kean led me to believe that he never had been able to get a 
>Birotron and that my
>giving him David Biro's phone number helped him get his first 
>Birotron. He led me to
>believe that he got it from Dave Biro. I do believe this was before 
>1991, but I could be
>wrong. I did live thru the '60 & '70's ;-)
>
>It could have been a second Birotron since I started working for 
>E-mu Systems around
>1988 thru the 1990's the same time period of when you stated he got 
>this other Birotron,
>from Mike Ayoub in Detroit around 1991.
>On the other hand, It could be the same unit. I was only going by 
>what Dave Kean said to
>me.
>
>It's entirely possible that Dave Biro connected him with Mike Ayoub 
>and that's really where
>he got the unit he told me he got "from Dave Biro".
>Or as you suggest, there could have been two that Dave Kean had 
>gotten hold of.
>
>I guess only Dave Kean or Dave Biro would have the real story. I 
>have not talked to either
>of the "Dave's" in quite a long time.
>
>You do bring up an interesting point though..maybe Rick Wakeman's 
>estimate of 35 being
>produced versus Dave Biro's 13 produced, is a clue that there are 
>probably more Birotrons
>out there than we think.
>
>As I said, I'm 52 and this stuff happened to me 30 years ago. I do 
>have my senior
>moments as well ;-) I'd be curious to know if Dave Kean did did 
>actually get two.
>
>I can call Ed Cohen and see what his take on all this is. He may or 
>may not know anything
>about Dave Kean, but he could have more info on the Birotron(s) that 
>Dave Biro did have.
>
>John
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "jaybe52000" <jaybe52000@...>
To: <Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 4:33 AM
Subject: [Mellotronists] Re: did the Birotron ever sound good?


> Thanks!  Glad to hear you found it interesting.
>
> I wasn't sure if I was taking up too much bandwidth here.  LOL
>
> I've started informally writing my own little autobiography about what 
> I've done behind the
> scenes so to speak in the synth/sampling industry.  So anything anyone 
> thinks I've got
> wrong or knows something differently from what I'm remembering always glad 
> to hear
> other's perspective/thoughts.
>
> Sorry it's taken me so long to start posting on the group.
>
> John

Chaps

Sounds like quite a few of you were gigging M400s around the States in the 
late '70s - did any of you record albums that aren't widely known? Even if 
only limited 'private pressings'?

Andy T.

Hi John,
I remember hearing about Dazzle when I was in a top40/wedding band.You 
were the RAVE of the time!
Unfortunately I never got to see you play.
Pete

jaybe52000 wrote:

> I am originally from the Boston area, and was touring all over the east coast with that 
> "dynamite show band---Dazzle"  , when we were at the Bridgeport Holiday Inn where i 
> first met Ed Cohen.
>

I have only two cassette tapes of the bands i was in back then.  One is 3 or 4 songs from 
the Prog Rock group Whipser the other is the band I was in when I first moved to California 
in the late '70's which was an entire album but our record deal fell thru so it was never 
released, all we got were master cassettes.  I do have to transfer them into the Mac and 
clean up up and turn them into MP3's just for the hell of it.  The Whipser stuff was 
recorded on a just an 8 track, so the quality is not really that great, but you can hear the 
Mellotrons on that one.  (I had a second M400 for those sessions in addition to my own 
M400.  However the Nightwork album was done in 24 track Analog 2 inch tape at the 
totally pro, hitmaking Sound City in Van Nuys, CA. This was the same studio famous for 
Pat Benatar's 1st album, the Buckingham/Nicks album Stevie Nicks and Lindsey 
Buckingham did before they joined Fleetwood Mac, Tom Petty was there recording his 
album in Studio A during the time we were recording ours in Studio B.  That might have 
been Petty's "Damn the Torpedo" not sure though. Rick Springfield was also there trying to 
get his first "hits" out there.  To name a few of the people I met there when we were 
recording that album.  

Unfortunately, the damn producer and engineer of that record HATED my 
Mellotron..because they were prejudice from their previous encounters with tron's that 
must have been not maintained, and played by people that most likely did not have the 
required "technique" we on this list know that Mellotron needs to sound it's best.

The LOVED my Hammond B3 playing and sounds so you can hear my organ solos at least 
and some of the Synth leads etc.

Even though I did some real nice stuff with my M400 they always buried it in the mix.  It 
really pissed me off.  I had done some really nice stuff with layering Polymoog Strings, 
Yamaha CS-80 strings and the String Section in my M400.  Of course I had used the 
Mellotron String section as the "grit and base" of the whole string section, the the 
Polymoog and CS-80 were the frosting.  Well all the frosting was there but the mellotron 
cake was missing.  

Actually now that I'm thinking about this, one nice intro to a song called "Anything Can 
Happen In Hollywood" the entire into to the song is all me, playing acoustic piano, 
Mellotron Flutes and a Bell like/Celeste patch I created on the Yamaha CS-80.  Since there 
were only the three instruments on the intro and the Mellotron Flutes were the only thing 
playing the chords, they HAD to have it up in the mix.  There, now I feel better.

One of the albums I played on that was release as a CD was James Young's 2nd solo record 
after he left Styx for awhile and lived in California.  I'm on the first cut, the introducton is 
lots of keyboards, unfortunatly, no Mellotron tho.  I know if you "google" me that does 
come up in some music database, but the CD is no longer available from what I've heard/
seen.  I do however have a copy of that for playing and one still shrinkwrapped with a 
"Thank You" post it note from JY.

John


--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Thompson" <andy.thompson@...> wrote:

>
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "jaybe52000" <jaybe52000@...>
> To: <Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 4:33 AM
> Subject: [Mellotronists] Re: did the Birotron ever sound good?
> 
> 
> > Thanks!  Glad to hear you found it interesting.
> >
> > I wasn't sure if I was taking up too much bandwidth here.  LOL
> >
> > I've started informally writing my own little autobiography about what 
> > I've done behind the
> > scenes so to speak in the synth/sampling industry.  So anything anyone 
> > thinks I've got
> > wrong or knows something differently from what I'm remembering always glad 
> > to hear
> > other's perspective/thoughts.
> >
> > Sorry it's taken me so long to start posting on the group.
> >
> > John
> 
> Chaps
> 
> Sounds like quite a few of you were gigging M400s around the States in the 
> late '70s - did any of you record albums that aren't widely known? Even if 
> only limited 'private pressings'?
> 
> Andy T.
>

John, 

The well known Kean/Birotron story goes like this:

Dave Kean bought his #7 Birotron from Mike Ayoub, the
same guy that sold Chris his Wakeman double tron. That
was in the early 90's. Then, while Kean was buying the
Mellotron stuff from Les Bradley, Les found a birotron
#8 (oddly enough) in storage with the Mellotron tapes.
Kean had been in contact with David Biro before that
time and Biro had NOT even seen one of his instruments
in decades. Kean got the idea to give Biro the second
unit, Les agreed and that's what they did. Dave and
his wife Sandi were on a pick up and delivery trip to
Naples Florida, visiting Jim Herbst and they dropped
off the Birotron to Biro in Jacksonville...got a look
at the Wakeman/Birotron scrap books and had a long
visit. 

I've heard and read this story a dozen times over the
years, Maybe time has altered the memories for you a
bit?

At any rate. Kean has seen 4 Birotrons (19 tapes, not
30) and said they all sounded pretty rotten, but the
vernier pitch control was sort of fun.

Mark.


 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Want to start your own business?
Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index

Mark,

Thanks for the reply.

I had no idea that this was a "well known" story for starters. 
Where else can I read about this?

Thanks for the clarifications.  I never heard any of this about the Birotron found at Les' 
place when Kean was buying the mellotron stuff from Les.  So I am glad I started this 
thread.  It's great to hear more about this.

I too was under the impession that Dave Biro had not seen one of his instruments in 
decades, when Dave Kean had asked me about him.  When I found David Biro's old number 
for Dave Kean, I was also very surprised when Dave Kean told me he got a Birotron from 
him.  (Who knows, like I said, I do have my senior moments too.  LOL)

I know when I gave Dave Kean David Biro's mom's home phone number in CT it was the 
late 1980's early 90's so there's some overlap there I'd guess.  

Maybe Dave Kean had been in contact with Biro previously? Dave Kean did ask me if I had 
a phone number for Biro since he'd like to contact him.  As I said, I managed to dig out an 
old personal phone book of mine and I gave Dave Kean the number. I am pretty certain 
this was well after Dave had gotten everything from Les Bradley.  But who knows? 
I know I'm not making things up just see myself in print!
Wether or not he'd lost contact with Biro and was looking for another way to contact him? 
Anythng's possible I suppose.

Maybe Dave Kean had told me he GAVE a Birotron to Dave Biro. That's not what I recall, I 
thought he told me he was looking to get one. Maybe he was just looking to get in contact 
again with Biro and couldn't track him down.  He did thank me for the number and said he 
had made contact with Dave Biro.     
Again since I cannot remember the exact year and date of these conversations with Dave 
Kean, I certain wouldn't argue with anyone proposeing to know more about this Birotron 
thing with Dave Kean.  I bow to you.

You've said "I've heard and read this story a dozen times over the years,"
Where may I ask have you read this story.  I'd love to read it myself.  I never knew it was 
ever in print anywhere.  

As far as your comment, "Maybe time has altered the memories for you a bit?"
Could be, but I certainly remember some of this as different from what you've said.

Regardless, it's not a big deal to me.  As I said in the original posts, I'm sure others may 
have different recollections/knowledge of this story possibly, and yes, it was awhile ago so 
I have no way of knowing that what Dave Kean told me (or I THOUGHT he told me was 
even the truth to begin with.)  Dave may have had alterior motives for throwing me off 
track, as to why he was asking for Dave Biro's phone number, hell anything's possible.

I was just sharing the fact that I was there in CT around these Birotron guys in the 70's 
when all this was going on and found it interesting.  

BTW, my comment about the the number of tapes was just a ball park guess in regard to 
Dave Biro's prototype made from all the car 8 Track decks.  I thought the actual Birotrons 
produced had two notes per cartridge, in the final design, which would have been 37 
keys/19 tapes as you suggested, but I'm not a Birotron historian and don't claim to be.
(I honestly don't remember the exact number used..but I'm sure you're right)

In his original contraption, I seem to remember there was only one note on each of the the 
8 tracks...again I that was 30 years ago so I'll plead years of pot smoking on that one. ;-)

You seem to have this all very clear in your mind and somewhere in print so....  I'll happily 
bow to you as the authority.  Thanks again for the additonal info.

John


--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, mark kasian <easle12@...> wrote:

>
> 
> John, 
> 
> The well known Kean/Birotron story goes like this:
> 
> Dave Kean bought his #7 Birotron from Mike Ayoub, the
> same guy that sold Chris his Wakeman double tron. That
> was in the early 90's. Then, while Kean was buying the
> Mellotron stuff from Les Bradley, Les found a birotron
> #8 (oddly enough) in storage with the Mellotron tapes.
> Kean had been in contact with David Biro before that
> time and Biro had NOT even seen one of his instruments
> in decades. Kean got the idea to give Biro the second
> unit, Les agreed and that's what they did. Dave and
> his wife Sandi were on a pick up and delivery trip to
> Naples Florida, visiting Jim Herbst and they dropped
> off the Birotron to Biro in Jacksonville...got a look
> at the Wakeman/Birotron scrap books and had a long
> visit. 
> 
> I've heard and read this story a dozen times over the
> years, Maybe time has altered the memories for you a
> bit?
> 
> At any rate. Kean has seen 4 Birotrons (19 tapes, not
> 30) and said they all sounded pretty rotten, but the
> vernier pitch control was sort of fun.
> 
> Mark.
> 
> 
>  
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Want to start your own business?
> Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
>

Hi John,

Well, to begin with, if anyone ever gets the notion to
CALL DAVE about this stuff (so I don't do all the fact
checking, per the usual) his number is: 403-225-2166.
I got his permission to give it out, but he asked me
to remind that Markus is the contact for everything
except the CD ROM.

So, we emailed a bit more about this and my previous
account is correct...as is Martin's number of 13
instruments produced. Dave also said: "This must be
John Bezjian". So, I guess that's whom I writing to
here. He contacted Biro (with your help) with the
hopes of buying an instrument, but as I stated before,
Dave Biro hadn't seen one in many years. Mike Ayoub
sold Kean #7 and soon thereafter, the Les Bradley
machine turned up. Kean said that a fellow from
Wakeman's Complex 7 company approached Streetly with
the idea of having THEM produce the machine.
Unbeknownst to Biro, of course. I guess the Bradley's
wisely turned it down and there #8 sat for years. It
had NO cabinet, so Kean had one built before they
gifted it to Biro. 

Anyway, I think it was pretty cool of Dave and Les to
get that instrument into Biro's hands after all those
years. I guess he was penniless, in bad health and
lamented the way his one moment in the sun came to
such an abrupt and fruitless halt. Too bad.

Dave also said that you had to have the monitors up
pretty loud just to get the signal over the noise of
those 19 tape cartidges clattering away back there.

One curiosity: the tapes were originally Mellotron
tapes taken out of one of wakeman's trons. They later
recorded their own sounds: brass, choir and strings.
He recorded them onto the 1/4 inch stock with two
upside down tascam reel to reels with the "master
tapes" copied to two unison tapes running
concurrently, but 180 degrees out of synch with each
other. Biro would then crossfade between the two loops
to avoid the splice points. Also, to avoid any minor
2nd's in any crosstalk, the cartridges (stereo) had
the sounds in 4th's and 5ths apart. Pretty smart. 

As for my "dozens of times" commnent; it was in one of
the Mellotron Archives newletters that Dave used to
put out, and on the mellotron.com website. I have also
heard Dave recount the story in person.

Best regards,
Mark.

--- jaybe52000 <jaybe52000@...> wrote:

> Mark,
> 
> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I had no idea that this was a "well known" story for
> starters. 
> Where else can I read about this?
> 
> Thanks for the clarifications.  I never heard any of
> this about the Birotron found at Les' 
> place when Kean was buying the mellotron stuff from
> Les.  So I am glad I started this 
> thread.  It's great to hear more about this.
> 
> I too was under the impession that Dave Biro had not
> seen one of his instruments in 
> decades, when Dave Kean had asked me about him. 
> When I found David Biro's old number 
> for Dave Kean, I was also very surprised when Dave
> Kean told me he got a Birotron from 
> him.  (Who knows, like I said, I do have my senior
> moments too.  LOL)
> 
> I know when I gave Dave Kean David Biro's mom's home
> phone number in CT it was the 
> late 1980's early 90's so there's some overlap there
> I'd guess.  
> 
> Maybe Dave Kean had been in contact with Biro
> previously? Dave Kean did ask me if I had 
> a phone number for Biro since he'd like to contact
> him.  As I said, I managed to dig out an 
> old personal phone book of mine and I gave Dave Kean
> the number. I am pretty certain 
> this was well after Dave had gotten everything from
> Les Bradley.  But who knows? 
> I know I'm not making things up just see myself in
> print!
> Wether or not he'd lost contact with Biro and was
> looking for another way to contact him? 
> Anythng's possible I suppose.
> 
> Maybe Dave Kean had told me he GAVE a Birotron to
> Dave Biro. That's not what I recall, I 
> thought he told me he was looking to get one. Maybe
> he was just looking to get in contact 
> again with Biro and couldn't track him down.  He did
> thank me for the number and said he 
> had made contact with Dave Biro.     
> Again since I cannot remember the exact year and
> date of these conversations with Dave 
> Kean, I certain wouldn't argue with anyone
> proposeing to know more about this Birotron 
> thing with Dave Kean.  I bow to you.
> 
> You've said "I've heard and read this story a dozen
> times over the years,"
> Where may I ask have you read this story.  I'd love
> to read it myself.  I never knew it was 
> ever in print anywhere.  
> 
> As far as your comment, "Maybe time has altered the
> memories for you a bit?"
> Could be, but I certainly remember some of this as
> different from what you've said.
> 
> Regardless, it's not a big deal to me.  As I said in
> the original posts, I'm sure others may 
> have different recollections/knowledge of this story
> possibly, and yes, it was awhile ago so 
> I have no way of knowing that what Dave Kean told me
> (or I THOUGHT he told me was 
> even the truth to begin with.)  Dave may have had
> alterior motives for throwing me off 
> track, as to why he was asking for Dave Biro's phone
> number, hell anything's possible.
> 
> I was just sharing the fact that I was there in CT
> around these Birotron guys in the 70's 
> when all this was going on and found it interesting.
>  
> 
> BTW, my comment about the the number of tapes was
> just a ball park guess in regard to 
> Dave Biro's prototype made from all the car 8 Track
> decks.  I thought the actual Birotrons 
> produced had two notes per cartridge, in the final
> design, which would have been 37 
> keys/19 tapes as you suggested, but I'm not a
> Birotron historian and don't claim to be.
> (I honestly don't remember the exact number
> used..but I'm sure you're right)
> 
> In his original contraption, I seem to remember
> there was only one note on each of the the 
> 8 tracks...again I that was 30 years ago so I'll
> plead years of pot smoking on that one. ;-)
> 
> You seem to have this all very clear in your mind
> and somewhere in print so....  I'll happily 
> bow to you as the authority.  Thanks again for the
> additonal info.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, mark kasian
> <easle12@...> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > John, 
> > 
> > The well known Kean/Birotron story goes like this:
> > 
> > Dave Kean bought his #7 Birotron from Mike Ayoub,
> the
> > same guy that sold Chris his Wakeman double tron.
> That
> > was in the early 90's. Then, while Kean was buying
> the
> > Mellotron stuff from Les Bradley, Les found a
> birotron
> > #8 (oddly enough) in storage with the Mellotron
> tapes.
> > Kean had been in contact with David Biro before
> that
> > time and Biro had NOT even seen one of his
> instruments
> > in decades. Kean got the idea to give Biro the
> second
> > unit, Les agreed and that's what they did. Dave
> and
> > his wife Sandi were on a pick up and delivery trip
> to
> > Naples Florida, visiting Jim Herbst and they
> dropped
> > off the Birotron to Biro in Jacksonville...got a
> look
> > at the Wakeman/Birotron scrap books and had a long
> > visit. 
> > 
> > I've heard and read this story a dozen times over
> the
> > years, Maybe time has altered the memories for you
> a
> > bit?
> > 
> > At any rate. Kean has seen 4 Birotrons (19 tapes,
> not
> > 30) and said they all sounded pretty rotten, but
> the
> > vernier pitch control was sort of fun.
> > 
> > Mark.
> > 
> > 
> >  
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Want to start your own business?
> > Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
> >
> 
> 
> 



 
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Hi Mark,

Thanks for Dave's number.  I had not talked to him in awhile.
I really appreciate you posting the number and of course I'd never bother him needlessly.

I didn't realize the you were the one that always end up being the "fact checker" on the list.  
(I've been on the list for awhile, but have only recently had some time to start looking at 
it.) Sorry about that.  Thanks for contacting Dave and getting the right details.  
I'll be sure to try and call him myself before I relay anything else like this in the future on 
the list.  

The number of instruments being 13 is also what I recall Dave Biro ad Ed Cohen saying as 
well regarding the total number built.  I think 

Yes, I am John Bezjian.  Nice to hear that Dave does still remember me and that I did get 
him in touch with Biro. (Always nice to know one's not completely brain dead...LOL)

I did think that he had not gotten a Birotron until after I had given him Dave Biro's number.
Thanks so much Mark for getting in touch with Dave Kean and for putting it all in the 
proper chronological order.  I agree, I didn't think Dave Biro still had any of the units 
himself and that's where I got confused when Dave Kean told me he did get a Birotron 
after I'd given him Dave Biro's number.  Cool. Now it all fits and makes sense.  

(BTW----Kasian.....are you Armenian too?  I'm half Armenian and half Italian)

That's very interesting that someone from Wakeman's Complex 7 company approached 
Streetly with the idea of having THEM produce the machine.  I'd never heard about that 
before.

I could not agree with you more, I think it was very cool of Dave and Les to get that 
instrument into Biro's hands after all those years. Ed had told me that he was indeed 
penniless, and in bad health.  He had lamented the way this whole thing came to such an 
abrupt and fruitless end. It really was very sad the way the whole thing worked out for 
Dave Biro.  He was a pretty OK guy. i had always felt bad for him too.
As I said in my earlier post, the whole reason this project even happened was because 
Dave Biro couldn't afford to buy his own Mellotron.  The last time I spoke with Ed Cohen (a 
few months ago) he said that Dave Biro was still not doing very well when I asked about 
him.

I do remember getting to see inside one of Rick Wakeman's Birotrons on stage, (Ed Cohen 
got us on the stage to see his setup after the show, and you are right, man were those 
things noisy!)

I didn't know the history of where the sounds came from on the "production units" 
That was very clever the way he crossfaded and spaced the tracks on the cartridges.

As I said, when David Biro first kluged together all those car 8 Tracks from the junkyard, 
Ed had told me that he borrowed our friend Jeff Batter's Mellotron and got the sounds from 
his Tron's tapes.  At least according to Ed Cohen.

Thanks again Mark for all the clarification and getting it right.  

Regards,

John Bezjian






--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, mark kasian <easle12@...> wrote:

>
> Hi John,
> 
> Well, to begin with, if anyone ever gets the notion to
> CALL DAVE about this stuff (so I don't do all the fact
> checking, per the usual) his number is: 403-225-2166.
> I got his permission to give it out, but he asked me
> to remind that Markus is the contact for everything
> except the CD ROM.
> 
> So, we emailed a bit more about this and my previous
> account is correct...as is Martin's number of 13
> instruments produced. Dave also said: "This must be
> John Bezjian". So, I guess that's whom I writing to
> here. He contacted Biro (with your help) with the
> hopes of buying an instrument, but as I stated before,
> Dave Biro hadn't seen one in many years. Mike Ayoub
> sold Kean #7 and soon thereafter, the Les Bradley
> machine turned up. Kean said that a fellow from
> Wakeman's Complex 7 company approached Streetly with
> the idea of having THEM produce the machine.
> Unbeknownst to Biro, of course. I guess the Bradley's
> wisely turned it down and there #8 sat for years. It
> had NO cabinet, so Kean had one built before they
> gifted it to Biro. 
> 
> Anyway, I think it was pretty cool of Dave and Les to
> get that instrument into Biro's hands after all those
> years. I guess he was penniless, in bad health and
> lamented the way his one moment in the sun came to
> such an abrupt and fruitless halt. Too bad.
> 
> Dave also said that you had to have the monitors up
> pretty loud just to get the signal over the noise of
> those 19 tape cartidges clattering away back there.
> 
> One curiosity: the tapes were originally Mellotron
> tapes taken out of one of wakeman's trons. They later
> recorded their own sounds: brass, choir and strings.
> He recorded them onto the 1/4 inch stock with two
> upside down tascam reel to reels with the "master
> tapes" copied to two unison tapes running
> concurrently, but 180 degrees out of synch with each
> other. Biro would then crossfade between the two loops
> to avoid the splice points. Also, to avoid any minor
> 2nd's in any crosstalk, the cartridges (stereo) had
> the sounds in 4th's and 5ths apart. Pretty smart. 
> 
> As for my "dozens of times" commnent; it was in one of
> the Mellotron Archives newletters that Dave used to
> put out, and on the mellotron.com website. I have also
> heard Dave recount the story in person.
> 
> Best regards,
> Mark.
> 
> --- jaybe52000 <jaybe52000@...> wrote:
> 
> > Mark,
> > 
> > Thanks for the reply.
> > 
> > I had no idea that this was a "well known" story for
> > starters. 
> > Where else can I read about this?
> > 
> > Thanks for the clarifications.  I never heard any of
> > this about the Birotron found at Les' 
> > place when Kean was buying the mellotron stuff from
> > Les.  So I am glad I started this 
> > thread.  It's great to hear more about this.
> > 
> > I too was under the impession that Dave Biro had not
> > seen one of his instruments in 
> > decades, when Dave Kean had asked me about him. 
> > When I found David Biro's old number 
> > for Dave Kean, I was also very surprised when Dave
> > Kean told me he got a Birotron from 
> > him.  (Who knows, like I said, I do have my senior
> > moments too.  LOL)
> > 
> > I know when I gave Dave Kean David Biro's mom's home
> > phone number in CT it was the 
> > late 1980's early 90's so there's some overlap there
> > I'd guess.  
> > 
> > Maybe Dave Kean had been in contact with Biro
> > previously? Dave Kean did ask me if I had 
> > a phone number for Biro since he'd like to contact
> > him.  As I said, I managed to dig out an 
> > old personal phone book of mine and I gave Dave Kean
> > the number. I am pretty certain 
> > this was well after Dave had gotten everything from
> > Les Bradley.  But who knows? 
> > I know I'm not making things up just see myself in
> > print!
> > Wether or not he'd lost contact with Biro and was
> > looking for another way to contact him? 
> > Anythng's possible I suppose.
> > 
> > Maybe Dave Kean had told me he GAVE a Birotron to
> > Dave Biro. That's not what I recall, I 
> > thought he told me he was looking to get one. Maybe
> > he was just looking to get in contact 
> > again with Biro and couldn't track him down.  He did
> > thank me for the number and said he 
> > had made contact with Dave Biro.     
> > Again since I cannot remember the exact year and
> > date of these conversations with Dave 
> > Kean, I certain wouldn't argue with anyone
> > proposeing to know more about this Birotron 
> > thing with Dave Kean.  I bow to you.
> > 
> > You've said "I've heard and read this story a dozen
> > times over the years,"
> > Where may I ask have you read this story.  I'd love
> > to read it myself.  I never knew it was 
> > ever in print anywhere.  
> > 
> > As far as your comment, "Maybe time has altered the
> > memories for you a bit?"
> > Could be, but I certainly remember some of this as
> > different from what you've said.
> > 
> > Regardless, it's not a big deal to me.  As I said in
> > the original posts, I'm sure others may 
> > have different recollections/knowledge of this story
> > possibly, and yes, it was awhile ago so 
> > I have no way of knowing that what Dave Kean told me
> > (or I THOUGHT he told me was 
> > even the truth to begin with.)  Dave may have had
> > alterior motives for throwing me off 
> > track, as to why he was asking for Dave Biro's phone
> > number, hell anything's possible.
> > 
> > I was just sharing the fact that I was there in CT
> > around these Birotron guys in the 70's 
> > when all this was going on and found it interesting.
> >  
> > 
> > BTW, my comment about the the number of tapes was
> > just a ball park guess in regard to 
> > Dave Biro's prototype made from all the car 8 Track
> > decks.  I thought the actual Birotrons 
> > produced had two notes per cartridge, in the final
> > design, which would have been 37 
> > keys/19 tapes as you suggested, but I'm not a
> > Birotron historian and don't claim to be.
> > (I honestly don't remember the exact number
> > used..but I'm sure you're right)
> > 
> > In his original contraption, I seem to remember
> > there was only one note on each of the the 
> > 8 tracks...again I that was 30 years ago so I'll
> > plead years of pot smoking on that one. ;-)
> > 
> > You seem to have this all very clear in your mind
> > and somewhere in print so....  I'll happily 
> > bow to you as the authority.  Thanks again for the
> > additonal info.
> > 
> > John
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, mark kasian
> > <easle12@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > John, 
> > > 
> > > The well known Kean/Birotron story goes like this:
> > > 
> > > Dave Kean bought his #7 Birotron from Mike Ayoub,
> > the
> > > same guy that sold Chris his Wakeman double tron.
> > That
> > > was in the early 90's. Then, while Kean was buying
> > the
> > > Mellotron stuff from Les Bradley, Les found a
> > birotron
> > > #8 (oddly enough) in storage with the Mellotron
> > tapes.
> > > Kean had been in contact with David Biro before
> > that
> > > time and Biro had NOT even seen one of his
> > instruments
> > > in decades. Kean got the idea to give Biro the
> > second
> > > unit, Les agreed and that's what they did. Dave
> > and
> > > his wife Sandi were on a pick up and delivery trip
> > to
> > > Naples Florida, visiting Jim Herbst and they
> > dropped
> > > off the Birotron to Biro in Jacksonville...got a
> > look
> > > at the Wakeman/Birotron scrap books and had a long
> > > visit. 
> > > 
> > > I've heard and read this story a dozen times over
> > the
> > > years, Maybe time has altered the memories for you
> > a
> > > bit?
> > > 
> > > At any rate. Kean has seen 4 Birotrons (19 tapes,
> > not
> > > 30) and said they all sounded pretty rotten, but
> > the
> > > vernier pitch control was sort of fun.
> > > 
> > > Mark.
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> > >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> > > Want to start your own business?
> > > Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
> http://new.mail.yahoo.com
>