Mellotronists

Now here's one for you and we'd welcome your  comments...................
 
Just recently we have been asked to tune up original recordings.  One  
instance was the MKII Flute and the other was the MKII Brass.  Both these  
recordings are amongst the most popular ever in the Mellotron Song Book.  
 
As a policy we never mess as we hold to the opinion that all our  favourite 
albums were made with the sounds as they were originally  recorded.  However, 
the tuned up versions sounded fantastic and even  seasoned pedantic bastards 
like us agreed that it was wonderful not to have to  find chord inversions to 
avoid THAT NOTE!
 
Talking with Woolly Wolstenholme, he says that half his time was spent  
trying to find smooth chordal progressions that kept in tune as best as possible  
and he had favourite notes in the M300A violins that he tried to always  avoid.
 
There are so many dire notes amongst the recordings that you  become over 
aware of when making tapes and the temptation is to  fix the buggers. So what do 
you think about altering history even if the end  result makes things a lot 
easier to use?
 
Best,
 
Martin

STREETLY ELECTRONICS - All things Mellotronic
_www.mellotronics.co.uk_ (http://www.mellotronics.co.uk/) 
www.mellotronics.com

US East Coast  Agent - Jimmy Moore _JMoore6397_ (mailto:JMoore6397) @...
US West Coast Agent - Paul  Cox _pjc56@..._ 
(mailto:pjc56@...)

Hi Martin,
GO FOR IT! That way we've even more ammunition against those samplers 
owning twits who think they've got 'as good as' the real thing. It'll 
also show the Melly in even more glory.
Mind you, the intro to 'Watcher of the Skies' may never sound the 
same again. Roundabouts and swings.......
Best wishes,
Dave.

>Now here's one for you and we'd welcome your comments...................
>
>Just recently we have been asked to tune up original recordings. 
>One instance was the MKII Flute and the other was the MKII Brass. 
>Both these recordings are amongst the most popular ever in the 
>Mellotron Song Book.
>
>As a policy we never mess as we hold to the opinion that all our 
>favourite albums were made with the sounds as they were originally 
>recorded.  However, the tuned up versions sounded fantastic and even 
>seasoned pedantic bastards like us agreed that it was wonderful not 
>to have to find chord inversions to avoid THAT NOTE!
>
>Talking with Woolly Wolstenholme, he says that half his time was 
>spent trying to find smooth chordal progressions that kept in tune 
>as best as possible and he had favourite notes in the M300A violins 
>that he tried to always avoid.
>
>There are so many dire notes amongst the recordings that you 
>become over aware of when making tapes and the temptation is to fix 
>the buggers. So what do you think about altering history even if the 
>end result makes things a lot easier to use?
>
>Best,
>
>Martin
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: tronbros@...

To: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 11:14 AM

Subject: [Mellotronists] Hallowed ground

Now here's one for you and we'd welcome your comments...................

Just recently we have been asked to tune up original recordings. One instance was the MKII Flute and the other was the MKII Brass. Both these recordings are amongst the most popular ever in the Mellotron Song Book.

As a policy we never mess as we hold to the opinion that all our favourite albums were made with the sounds as they were originally recorded. However, the tuned up versions sounded fantastic and even seasoned pedantic bastards like us agreed that it was wonderful not to have to find chord inversions to avoid THAT NOTE!

Talking with Woolly Wolstenholme, he says that half his time was spent trying to find smooth chordal progressions that kept in tune as best as possible and he had favourite notes in the M300A violins that he tried to always avoid.

There are so many dire notes amongst the recordings that you become over aware of when making tapes and the temptation is to fix the buggers. So what do you think about altering history even if the end result makes things a lot easier to use?

Martin

Make both versions available - you can always demonstrate both to prospective buyers. I suspect most will go for the 'corrected' version - after all, they weren't deliberately recorded out of tune... FWIW, I've never had a tuning problem with my late-'70s flute tapes. Maybe I'm tone deaf. Maybe I'm deaf.

Andy T.

If people want tuned versions of the sounds and if they sound fantastic, as you say, then you should definitely make them available to people!  It would be

Hi Martin,

This is a tough choice. If you decide to tune up the old sounds, 
will the original versions still be available for the "purists" 
among us?

Bernie

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, tronbros@... wrote:
>
> Now here's one for you and we'd welcome your  
comments...................
>  
> Just recently we have been asked to tune up original recordings.  
One  
> instance was the MKII Flute and the other was the MKII Brass.  
Both these  
> recordings are amongst the most popular ever in the Mellotron Song 
Book.  
>  
> As a policy we never mess as we hold to the opinion that all our  
favourite 
> albums were made with the sounds as they were originally  
recorded.  However, 
> the tuned up versions sounded fantastic and even  seasoned 
pedantic bastards 
> like us agreed that it was wonderful not to have to  find chord 
inversions to 
> avoid THAT NOTE!
>  
> Talking with Woolly Wolstenholme, he says that half his time was 
spent  
> trying to find smooth chordal progressions that kept in tune as 
best as possible  
> and he had favourite notes in the M300A violins that he tried to 
always  avoid.
>  
> There are so many dire notes amongst the recordings that you  
become over 
> aware of when making tapes and the temptation is to  fix the 
buggers. So what do 
> you think about altering history even if the end  result makes 
things a lot 
> easier to use?
>  
> Best,
>  
> Martin
> 
> STREETLY ELECTRONICS - All things Mellotronic
> _www.mellotronics.co.uk_ (http://www.mellotronics.co.uk/) 
> www.mellotronics.com
> 
> US East Coast  Agent - Jimmy Moore _JMoore6397_ 
(mailto:JMoore6397) @...

> US West Coast Agent - Paul  Cox _pjc56@..._ 
> (mailto:pjc56@...)
>

I'm all for it.
 
Frank

So what do you think about altering history even if the end result makes things a lot easier to use?

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, tronbros@... wrote:
>So what do you think about altering history even if the end  result 
makes things a lot easier to use?

If you are going to fix tuning issues, there must also be some 
temptation to fix bias pops and drop-outs.  These are NOT the things 
that give mellotron sounds "character"....They are just a pain in the 
ass.

I would not have any concern if you used digital editing to fix these 
WARTS.  Some people might think that A-D conversion, digital editing, 
then transfer back to analog would somehow destroy the analog-ness of 
the sounds.  (Desecration of the Holy Tapes!)

Use good converters and s/w.  No worries.

Clay

The originals were out of tune?  fooled me....

-----Original Message-----
From: tronbros@...
To: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 06:14:10 EDT
Subject: [Mellotronists] Hallowed ground



Now here's one for you and we'd welcome your comments...................

  Just recently we have been asked to tune up original recordings. One 
instance was the MKII Flute and the other was the MKII Brass. Both 
these recordings are amongst the most popular ever in the Mellotron 
Song Book.

  As a policy we never mess as we hold to the opinion that all our 
favourite albums were made with the sounds as they were originally 
recorded. However, the tuned up versions sounded fantastic and even 
seasoned pedantic bastards like us agreed that it was wonderful not to 
have to find chord inversions to avoid THAT NOTE!

  Talking with Woolly Wolstenholme, he says that half his time was spent 
trying to find smooth chordal progressions that kept in tune as best as 
possible and he had favourite notes in the M300A violins that he tried 
to always avoid.

  There are so many dire notes amongst the recordings that you become 
over aware of when making tapes and the temptation is to fix the 
buggers. So what do you think about altering history even if the end 
result makes things a lot easier to use?

 Best,

 Martin

STREETLY ELECTRONICS - All things Mellotronic
www.mellotronics.co.uk
www.mellotronics.com
US East Coast Agent - Jimmy Moore JMoore6397@...
US West Coast Agent - Paul Cox pjc56@...



  

________________________________________________________________________
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Hi Martin.
I think you know already know what I'm going to say. Absolutely, go for it.  
As a suggestion can you include a "before and after" demo on the Streetly 
tapes  page.
I'm pretty sure you will have a general "thinning" of the sound as there  
will be less beating going on between the out of tune notes.
In no way does venturing onto hallowed ground degrade the tron in any way.  
I'm sure your untouched versions of the sounds will remain for those who want  
the "warts and all" original. However, the tuned versions will be welcome,  
and I for one will putting his money where is mouth is and ordering  them.
Andy K

In a message dated 28/06/2006 14:53:24 GMT Standard Time,  
ecclesreinson@... writes:

would  not have any concern if you used digital editing to fix these 
WARTS.   Some people might think that A-D conversion, digital editing, 
then  transfer back to analog would somehow destroy the analog-ness of 
the  sounds.
Martin. Aren't the sounds already digitised before the tapes are made  up?
ANdy K

Hi Martin,

Splendid idea, go for it! I think it would be good to still keep the
original versions available as an alternative choice for the purists
(seems to be the general consensus on here so far), but if it means
being able to play without said note avoidance I'm all for
correctly-tuned versions. 


Regards,

Tony S.

M400S #581



--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, tronbros@... wrote:
>
> Now here's one for you and we'd welcome your 
comments...................
>  
> Just recently we have been asked to tune up original recordings.  One  
> instance was the MKII Flute and the other was the MKII Brass.  Both
these  
> recordings are amongst the most popular ever in the Mellotron Song
Book.  
>  
> As a policy we never mess as we hold to the opinion that all our 
favourite 
> albums were made with the sounds as they were originally  recorded.
 However, 
> the tuned up versions sounded fantastic and even  seasoned pedantic
bastards 
> like us agreed that it was wonderful not to have to  find chord
inversions to 
> avoid THAT NOTE!
>  
> Talking with Woolly Wolstenholme, he says that half his time was spent  
> trying to find smooth chordal progressions that kept in tune as best
as possible  
> and he had favourite notes in the M300A violins that he tried to
always  avoid.
>  
> There are so many dire notes amongst the recordings that you  become
over 
> aware of when making tapes and the temptation is to  fix the
buggers. So what do 
> you think about altering history even if the end  result makes
things a lot 
> easier to use?
>  
> Best,
>  
> Martin
> 
> STREETLY ELECTRONICS - All things Mellotronic
> _www.mellotronics.co.uk_ (http://www.mellotronics.co.uk/) 
> www.mellotronics.com
> 
> US East Coast  Agent - Jimmy Moore _JMoore6397_ (mailto:JMoore6397)
@...

> US West Coast Agent - Paul  Cox _pjc56@..._ 
> (mailto:pjc56@...)
>

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 tronbros@... wrote:

> Now here's one for you and we'd welcome your  comments...................
>
> Just recently we have been asked to tune up original recordings.  One
> instance was the MKII Flute and the other was the MKII Brass.  Both these
> recordings are amongst the most popular ever in the Mellotron Song Book.
>
> As a policy we never mess as we hold to the opinion that all our  favourite
> albums were made with the sounds as they were originally  recorded.  However,
> the tuned up versions sounded fantastic and even  seasoned pedantic bastards
> like us agreed that it was wonderful not to have to  find chord inversions to
> avoid THAT NOTE!


it goes without saying, but i'll say it anyway:
this does NOT mean killing off the old recordings - just making an
alternative "clean" version available.

this of course depends on the methods used.
i think we can all count on streetly doing it right, as they
always do.

further, i think the relative success of the "new" recordings is
evidence that they will "do it right".

i imagine that the question is being posed for the purpose of seein
if this will be financially feasible for the return on the enourmous
effort that will be required to do this. from the responses so far
it seems to be a VERY resounding YES - PLEASE DO THIS.

out of technical curiosity, and without revealing any trade secrets,
just how would you be accomplishing this?

i recommend using the engineer responsible for a certain CHER track
from a  couple years back.
you could not detect the autocorrect pitch shifting at all.
really. they MEANT to do that ;0) ...or did they? see:
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2005/11/03/lets-kill-the-cher-believe-autotune-myth-forever-or-not/

but seriously, just how would you be doing this?

...jeff [aka "redunzl"]

> Talking with Woolly Wolstenholme, he says that half his time was spent
> trying to find smooth chordal progressions that kept in tune as best as possible
> and he had favourite notes in the M300A violins that he tried to always  avoid.
>
> There are so many dire notes amongst the recordings that you  become over
> aware of when making tapes and the temptation is to  fix the buggers. So what do
> you think about altering history even if the end  result makes things a lot
> easier to use?
>
> Best,
>
> Martin
>
> STREETLY ELECTRONICS - All things Mellotronic
> _www.mellotronics.co.uk_ (http://www.mellotronics.co.uk/)
> www.mellotronics.com
>
> US East Coast  Agent - Jimmy Moore _JMoore6397_ (mailto:JMoore6397) @...
> US West Coast Agent - Paul  Cox _pjc56@..._
> (mailto:pjc56@...)
>

In a message dated 28/06/2006 11:18:29 GMT Daylight Time, tronbros@...  
writes:

So what  do you think about altering history even if the end result makes 
things a lot  easier to use?


Supply both, but perhaps not on the same frame!
 
Norm

Didn't Dave at Mellotron Archives already do this? There are tuned and 
untuned versions on the Pinder CD Rom.

It brings up a lot of interesting points now, just as
it did in 1995. Just how MUCH tuning is appropriate?
The pipe organ is a notorius candidate. I had an
original frame that was unusable before I replaced it
with some re-tuned MA tapes in '97. Dave and Markus
have some very interesting data sheets of the exact
amount of "out of tuneness"  for all of the sounds in
the current library, very few were adjusted more than
5 cents or so. The tension inherent in the tuning of
the originals *did* add something that I think should
be retained. As for bias pops and clicks etc., that
stuff varied all over the place anyway, depending on
which work master was used by Les, Ron, Dave, Markus
et al. I have heard the flute sounds taken from 5
different reels and the "warts" are plentiful and
varied from reel to reel. I'm glad not to have ANY!!

As for method, MA used an old (albeit restored) Ampex
350 set w/ vari-speed to re-pitch the originals.
Another point that Dave made is that when you re-pitch
acoustic instruments, you also formant shift them
creating a smaller "body" and filter
characteristic...remember the munchkins of Ensoniq
Mirage fame? 

I've heard that Markus recently made another
remastering pass at the tapes using 24 bit / high
sample rate converters. Anymore re-tuning Markus? 

I'm quite sure that the Cedar system favored by Martin
and John works wonders at this idea since they have
tackled the whole pitching issue in many ways. I once
saw a demo of Cedar at a trade show and was very, very
impressed. 

Good luck with it guys, it's a good idea.

Mark

--- charel196 <charel196@...> wrote:

> Didn't Dave at Mellotron Archives already do this?
> There are tuned and 
> untuned versions on the Pinder CD Rom.
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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On Wed, 28 Jun 2006, charel196 wrote:

> Didn't Dave at Mellotron Archives already do this? There are tuned and
> untuned versions on the Pinder CD Rom.


not on mine there aren't [1994 / #487MA].
or if there are they are hidden/unlisted.

...jeff

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006, James Parthun wrote:

> My Pinder CD has tuned and untuned versions.



interesting...
anyone else have this on theirs?
any way to identify which version does and does not?

hmmm...

> Regards,
> James Parthun
> Parthun Enterprises, Inc.
> (630) 968-8731 Office
> (630) 968-8732 Fax
> (630) 533-8340 Cellular
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of jeffc@...
> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 10:41 PM
> To: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Mellotronists] Re: Hallowed ground
>
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2006, charel196 wrote:
>
> > Didn't Dave at Mellotron Archives already do this? There are tuned and
> > untuned versions on the Pinder CD Rom.
>
>
> not on mine there aren't [1994 / #487MA].
> or if there are they are hidden/unlisted.
>
> ...jeff
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I have both tuned and un-tuned versions on my CD.

 

  _____  

From: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of jeffc@...
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 9:38 PM
To: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Mellotronists] Re: Hallowed ground

 

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006, James Parthun wrote:

> My Pinder CD has tuned and untuned versions.

interesting...
anyone else have this on theirs?
any way to identify which version does and does not?

hmmm...

> Regards,
> James Parthun
> Parthun Enterprises, Inc.
> (630) 968-8731 Office
> (630) 968-8732 Fax
> (630) 533-8340 Cellular
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mellotronists@ <mailto:Mellotronists%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com [mailto:Mellotronists@
<mailto:Mellotronists%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of jeffc@netaxs. <mailto:jeffc%40netaxs.com> com
> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 10:41 PM
> To: Mellotronists@ <mailto:Mellotronists%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com

> Subject: Re: [Mellotronists] Re: Hallowed ground
>
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2006, charel196 wrote:
>
> > Didn't Dave at Mellotron Archives already do this? There are tuned and
> > untuned versions on the Pinder CD Rom.
>
>
> not on mine there aren't [1994 / #487MA].
> or if there are they are hidden/unlisted.
>
> ...jeff
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks for all the input.
 
We weren't actually planning to to retune the entire catalogue as an  
exercise.  We wanted the die hard fans to say what they thought about the  very idea 
as there are some extremely emotive people out there when it  comes to messing 
with originality.  The notion of doing anything to sacred  mellotron sounds 
would horrify some.  Suprisingly you have all hailed the  idea!  Not what we 
expected at all but actually quite a revelation and a  good one at that.
 
So, as a final comment on all this, which sounds do you own which you feel  
would benefit from a good old tweaking?  
 
Thanks for the response, it's what this list is all about.
 
Best,
 
Martin
STREETLY ELECTRONICS - All things Mellotronic
_www.mellotronics.co.uk_ (http://www.mellotronics.co.uk/) 
www.mellotronics.com

US East Coast  Agent - Jimmy Moore _JMoore6397_ (mailto:JMoore6397) @...
US West Coast Agent - Paul  Cox _pjc56@..._ 
(mailto:pjc56@...)

> From: jeffc@...
   > Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:59:08 -0400 (EDT)
   > 
   > it goes without saying, but i'll say it anyway: this does NOT
   > mean killing off the old recordings - just making an alternative
   > "clean" version available.

Well gee, if you're not gonna kill off the old recordings, where's the
drawa?  :-)

   > i recommend using the engineer responsible for a certain CHER
   > track from a couple years back.

I'll claim that the They Might Be Giants' song "Bastard Wants to Hit
Me" is a far more creative and musical use of pitch correction than
that annoying Cher song.  (Check it out under www.tmbg.com, under the
venue songs streaming videos.  The animation on that video is also
pretty amazing.)

   > but seriously, just how would you be doing this?

Either adjust the playback speed digitally or go old school and have a
variable frequency oscillator (VFO) drive the motor of the playback
tape machine.

The phrase "pitch shifting" refers to changing the pitch of an audio
signal without changing the tempo or speed.  To do this you need to
take time slices of the input signal, speed up or slow down each time
slice, and then concatentate the slices back, either throwing away the
extra pieces when pitching down or repeating some bits for pitching
up.  This is generally a digital operation, although the pitch
shifting used in Zappa's "The Purple Lagoon" is probably an analog
equivalent with BBD chips, and before that there was a mechanical
method of mounting several tape heads mounted on a spinning drum.
Either way, concatenting the time slices mucks up the sound quality,
so you don't want to use "pitch shifting" on Mellotron sounds.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

In a message dated 29/06/2006 04:47:58 GMT Standard Time, easle12@...  
writes:

I'm  quite sure that the Cedar system favored by Martin
and John works wonders  at this idea since they have
tackled the whole pitching issue in many ways.  I once
saw a demo of Cedar at a trade show and was very, very
impressed.  
Can someone tell me what the Cedar system is?
Cheers.
Andy K

BTW, how did they get out of tune in the first place?

Bernie

So, as a final comment on all this, which sounds do you own which you feel would benefit from a good old tweaking?

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, egrefin@... wrote:
>
> > So, as a final comment on all this, which sounds do you own which  
> > you feel would benefit from a good old tweaking?
> 
> cello and MKII Brass
> 
> 
> David C.
> -----------
> Candor Chasma
> http://egrefin.free.fr
>

Speaking of cello, how does the Tony Levin NS Electric Cello sound 
compared to the classic cello? Are the lower notes tuned down electric 
cello?

Bernie

Hmmm, if push comes to shove I'd plump for a few tweaks to these:

The more duff notes on the MkII Brass - much as it is one of my
favourite sounds I can think of a couple of dodgy notes that would
benefit...8 Choir, Cello, Mixed Brass B (which seems mostly fine apart
from a rather suspect middle C) - M300A violins and perhaps Trombone
(mind you, I guess all of this also depends on how popular sounds such
as the trombone are to start with - from a business point of view it
obviously still has to be worth your while doing it, I suppose in a
way there wouldn't be much point in tweaking sounds that may not be in
as much demand anyway!) .

I'm not so sure about the MkII Flutes and the MKII Violins - although
between them they do have the odd notes that are slightly sharp in
some places and slightly flat in others, in my experience they have
only ever been slight discrepancies in tuning, they have never been
bad enough for me to avoid particular notes on those - on the
contrary, it has added to the character. On reflection, right now I'm
inclined to agree with Andy K on this one - if those particular sounds
were tuned perfectly I can't help thinking they might lose something
(if there were notes which were really bad I'd alter those and leave
it at that). But then I haven't heard the corrected versions so it's
hard to say - I'll be very interested to hear them, I could well be
completely bowled over by them. Either way though, I certainly think
that it's still best to have both 'before' and 'after' versions available.

Tony S
M400S #581




--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, tronbros@... wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the input.
>  
> We weren't actually planning to to retune the entire catalogue as an  
> exercise.  We wanted the die hard fans to say what they thought
about the  very idea 
> as there are some extremely emotive people out there when it  comes
to messing 
> with originality.  The notion of doing anything to sacred  mellotron
sounds 
> would horrify some.  Suprisingly you have all hailed the  idea!  Not
what we 
> expected at all but actually quite a revelation and a  good one at that.
>  
> So, as a final comment on all this, which sounds do you own which
you feel  
> would benefit from a good old tweaking?  
>  
> Thanks for the response, it's what this list is all about.
>  
> Best,
>  
> Martin
> STREETLY ELECTRONICS - All things Mellotronic
> _www.mellotronics.co.uk_ (http://www.mellotronics.co.uk/) 
> www.mellotronics.com
> 
> US East Coast  Agent - Jimmy Moore _JMoore6397_ (mailto:JMoore6397)
@...

> US West Coast Agent - Paul  Cox _pjc56@..._ 
> (mailto:pjc56@...)
>