Mellotronists

In a message dated 11/20/02 4:19:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
j.k.beresford@... writes:


> I don't know why this should happen only with multiple notes. I 
> sometimes get a "bump" sound at the beginning of the odd note 
> and that's crap on the tape. If I clean it just before the heads with 
> IPA it goes away. Is your pad assembly tightened down properly? 
> I'm wondering if it's moving when you engage a full chord.
> 

It's definitely not noise or anything on the tape.  I've recorded the sound 
on MP3s, and using wave editing software you can see the random discharge 
spikes in the audio signal.  Right now I have a theory that it's some kind of 
static discharge taking place along the tapes, between the tape heads and the 
rear drum.  Playing the tapes makes contact between the tape heads and the 
drum, causing the discharge.  Only on bank #1 because there's less tape 
between the two, making discharge easier.  Multiple notes because that 
provides more paths for the discharge to occur.  I'm no electronics expert,  
just trying to fit the symptoms to a possible cause.  Also, it *sounds* like 
a static discharge.  At least one other 'Tron owner has had a similar problem 
with static discharge (on an M400).  However, I'm not sure how to test this 
theory.

I tried removing the cycling plug from the power pack and I still get the 
pops, so it's probably not related to the cycling circuitry at all.

You may have a point about the pad assembly - I did have that off, so it's 
worth checking.  Thanks.

Ken M.

kenmerb@... wrote:

>  In a message dated 11/20/02 4:19:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> j.k.beresford@... writes:
>
>
>> Ken Merbler wrote:
>
> It's definitely not noise or anything on the tape.  I've recorded the
> sound on MP3s, and using wave editing software you can see the random
> discharge spikes in the audio signal.  Right now I have a theory that
> it's some kind of static discharge taking place along the tapes,
> between the tape heads and the rear drum.  Playing the tapes makes
> contact between the tape heads and the drum, causing the discharge.
> Only on bank #1 because there's less tape between the two, making
> discharge easier.  Multiple notes because that provides more paths for
> the discharge to occur.  I'm no electronics expert,  just trying to
> fit the symptoms to a possible cause.  Also, it *sounds* like a static
> discharge.  At least one other 'Tron owner has had a similar problem
> with static discharge (on an M400).  However, I'm not sure how to test
> this theory.
>
> I tried removing the cycling plug from the power pack and I still get
> the pops, so it's probably not related to the cycling circuitry at
> all.
>
> You may have a point about the pad assembly - I did have that off, so
> it's worth checking.  Thanks.
>
> Ken M.

Wow! I think I have the solution! MY tapes (LH keyboard, especially)
sometimes have a tendency to audibly "snap", and when I first turn it
on, there's a definite "crackle" on certain notes. Ken, you've been
reporting "pops". It's my guess that Martinge was eating his breakfast
to close to the recording gear when he was making our tapes. You know
how he loves those rice crispies...

Rick B.

Surprised that most machines don't hiccup and give off "beery" fumes...

In a message dated 11/20/02 11:06:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
rick@... writes:


> Wow! I think I have the solution! MY tapes (LH keyboard, especially) 
> sometimes have a tendency to audibly "snap", and when I first turn it on, 
> there's a definite "crackle" on certain notes. Ken, you've been reporting 
> "pops". It's my guess that Martinge was eating his breakfast to close to 
> the recording gear when he was making our tapes. You know how he loves 
> those rice crispies... 

OK, Rick, you had me thinking you were serious there for a second.

I also get the snap and crackle out of both speakers when I fire up #247, but 
it goes away after a few seconds.  It makes the same exact sound as my 1962 
Fender Pro amp when I turn that on.  I attribute this to old age, as these 
are electronic devices nearing 40 years of age (that's 80+ in human years).  
It's just their way of saying " I'm old, leave me alone!  Where's my hat? "


Speaking of strange noises, KL and I have noticed a strange noise on at least 
two of the French horn notes, near the beginning of the sounds.  You should 
probably contact me off-list to discuss, otherwise it could be embarrassing.  
I don't want to describe the sound, other than to ask if,  by chance, these 
were recorded at your "House of Windsor" studio?  I *am * serious - there is 
something strange on a couple of the notes.

Also, has anyone noticed the three-second sound loop which appears to make up 
the low G note of the Russian choir?  It's almost as though the entire 
Russian choir is trying to mimic the sound of a car starting in Siberia.  I'm 
serious about this one also.

Of course, none of these are nearly as annoying as my popping MKII .

All together now!
( as sung to the tune of  "The Twelve Days of Christmas")

*On the third day of Christmas, Martin sold to me

* A Russian choir looping,
* Two French horns farting,
* and my MKII's still popping at me!

Ken M

kenmerb@... wrote:

>
> Speaking of strange noises, KL and I have noticed a strange noise on
> at least two of the French horn notes, near the beginning of the
> sounds.  You should probably contact me off-list to discuss, otherwise
> it could be embarrassing.  I don't want to describe the sound, other
> than to ask if,  by chance, these were recorded at your "House of
> Windsor" studio?  I *am * serious - there is something strange on a
> couple of the notes.

Ken,

I am tempted to give a flip answer here (but I PROMISED not to make any
more jokes at Mike Dickson's expense, that I would NEVER AGAIN mention
on this list what he suffers from.), but I suspect that you're not
hearing the results of incomplete digestion but something more insidious
to those who try to record 35 perfect notes in something other than a
hermetically sealed recording studio: ambient noise, in this case, more
specifically, traffic noises.

When we recorded this sound, the piccolo and the bass clarinet, the
flight pattern for the airport seems to have been somewhat nearer to my
house than usual and we seemed to have a rash of cars and trucks
desperately in need of mechanical care. Did I mention fire trucks? There
were not one, but two fires in the nearby apartment buildings on that
fateful night!

Merinque Smith had the unenviable task of sorting through all the takes
(some notes with as many as ten) for to try to find ones that didn't
have any "outside influences" and also sounded good and were in tune (a
minor qualification), and I think he did a damn fine job. But he has the
masters. What's the word, old chap?

I will fire up old Brenda (as soon as I put in a good supply of coal)
and check out your claims. What notes are you speaking of specifically?

However, I was just thinking... When the final takes of the master tapes
were being put together, Dickson was present at the Streetly World
Headquarters in Lower-Upper Blithbury (hard upon the Twat & Handbag Pub)
in order to make the demo tapes for the Streetly Library Website. No. It
couldn't be. It's just too far fetched to be true...

And for Gene's earlier e-mail, I agree that listening to the outtakes
would be quite illuminating as well as very funny. For example, when we
were recording the bass flute recently, my red-headed better half
suddenly stopped playing and said, "Oh f___! Now I've got the hiccups!"
I (being the time keeper and present in the vocal booth with her)
unwisely said, "Oh, then we can just record some shorter notes between
the hiccups." She called me a seven-letter word that begins with "A" and
then very sweetly said, "Oh! Is the tape still running?"

My feeling is we should leave the exchange in, in place of the 35th
note, but then I'd probably be sleeping on the sofa the rest of my
farking life.

Hope this sorts everything out.

Rick

In a message dated 11/20/02 7:54:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
rick@... writes:


>  will fire up old Brenda (as soon as I put in a good supply of coal) and 
> check out your claims. What notes are you speaking of specifically? 

Rick,

     After listening to the French horns again tonight, there seem to be 
three bad notes, but I'm pretty sure it's a tape related problem and nothing 
to do with your performance.  The question is, where did the problem occur - 
the master tapes, the copy made for my set, or the installation of my set.  
Or, somewhere else?  The notes are numbers 20, 22 & 25 on the French horns.  
I'll bet your set is fine.


The Russian choir on note #1 definitely sounds like a tape loop to KL and I.

I'm trying to load a page containing MP3s of all the sounds in question 
(along with examples of the "pops").  I'll let you know when they're out 
there.

Ken M

Ken,

Though not a 'tron owner yet (#574 is still waiting for me to deliver 
it from it's purple roadcase with the degenerating blue foam), those 
pops sound like static pops to me.  Having worked for years with 
larger reel-to-reel machines, it reminds me of when the static drains 
on the hub platters of Scully 280's would stop making good ground 
contact followed by the static buildup from fast winding a tape 
finding it's way to ground resulting in a pop or pops in the dub.  
Funny how it never seemed to be able to find a ground while the tape 
was motionless, it always waited to discharge after the tape has 
been in motion for a moment or two.  After several 
speaker-cone-shredding snaps, things would settle down while one 
rewound the tape to start the dub over again.  And again, as soon as 
the tape was played back, the pops would re-occur in about the same 
places, but once the hub drains were renewed, then the popping
ceased.  Were any provisions made for this on the Mark II or was it
calculated that the numerous points of contact the tape makes as it 
winds through the 'tron would provide plenty of grounding 
opportunities? 

Just a thought....

FS. Weller

In a message dated 11/21/2002 7:40:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
capt_carbonarc@... writes:


> After several 
> speaker-cone-shredding snaps, things would settle down while one 
> rewound the tape to start the dub over again.  And again, as soon as 
> the tape was played back, the pops would re-occur in about the same 
> places, but once the hub drains were renewed, then the popping
> ceased.  Were any provisions made for this on the Mark II or was it
> calculated that the numerous points of contact the tape makes as it 
> winds through the 'tron would provide plenty of grounding 
> opportunities? 
> 

I think that the main argument against the static discharge theory is that 
once discharged (via the "pops") that the problem would go away.  However, 
your experience with recharging the static by rewinding the tape intrigues 
me.  Could explain a lot. I wonder what area of the MKII would function as 
the "hub drain"?  I know that Bob Young appears to have a ground wire on his 
MKII which is not on mine.  I think that JB's leaning away from the static 
discharge idea, but that's what it seems like to me.  However, he's got a lot 
more experience with these things than I do, so it could be something 
completely different.

Thanks for your input - I learn a little more with each message like this.  
That's why I put the MP3s out there.

Ken M.

>>That's why I put the MP3s out there.>>

Ken,

And I appreciate those MP3s that you've put out there.....since that 
is the closest I'm getting to #574 for the time being!  =)

FS. Weller

In a message dated 11/21/02 10:40:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
rick@... writes:


> Well, Ken, I listened to them all, and I don't have an answer. With the 
> McDonald flute, the MkII flute and my French Horn, there are no pops or 
> dropouts--at least on my mellotron. I can only speak for the French horn, 
> but I certainly couldn't do something like that while playing and I know it 
> didn't go down on the DAT like that. I've also heard the master tapes for 
> Ian's recording and it is brilliant

Rick,

     Just to clarify here, I don't have a problem with any of the flute 
recordings.

     There are two types of sound problems I'm noticing.  The first type (and 
primary one for me) are the pops.  These aren't actually recorded on the 
tapes, there's just some kind of discharge taking place within my MKII which 
is all over the audio on bank #1 only.  So, it's specific to my machine.

     The second type of problem *is* recorded on my tapes, and affects the 
French horns ( it's not your playing, more like audio dropouts on three notes 
) and the single Russian choir note ( looping-type sound ).  There's nothing 
I can do about these now, so I just wanted to report them.

Ken M.