Homebrew PCBs

Hi,

just tried a piece of a latex glove for transfer.
While it can take the heat it does not release the toner readily.
Don't think liquid latex coated paper would work.

ST

Stefan Trethan wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> just tried a piece of a latex glove for transfer.
> While it can take the heat it does not release the toner readily.
> Don't think liquid latex coated paper would work.
> 

   It was really the after 700 degree cooking latex that I've been thinking of, 
the outer layer of what got pulled off the fingers and holes had a very good 
consistency to try.  Looking at the slick plastic/rubber coated handles of my 
electronics pliers right now they look pretty good too, may have to go get some 
plasti-dip tomorrow.  Have 6 things to try on hand including the high temp 
silicone but having to make some real boards with the old method so may not even 
look at it for a few days.

   Looking around on the net the cost per board goes down drastically after the 
$300 mark if they let you panelize, but it's still terrible compared $2/pcb 
sheet and making your own boards for anything simple.  I need 2.5" and 4" rounds 
by the hundreds shortly, near perfect and 5 minutes soon won't be enough, I need 
just about no involvement.  Like laser printing on the copper, it is time to 
make it work one way or another.  After the aluminum foil, I think it could work 
straight to board with some heavy work.  But for simplicity first to see about 
something that wipes or sprays on, non-conductive for imaging, etched by acid, 
and toner melts through so it doesn't get etched under.  Maybe something will 
fit that bill..

Alan

On Mon, 23 May 2005 06:02:43 -0400, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:

>
>   Looking around on the net the cost per board goes down drastically  
> after the
> $300 mark if they let you panelize, but it's still terrible compared  
> $2/pcb
> sheet and making your own boards for anything simple.  I need 2.5" and  
> 4" rounds
> by the hundreds shortly, near perfect and 5 minutes soon won't be  
> enough, I need
> just about no involvement.  Like laser printing on the copper, it is  
> time to
> make it work one way or another.  After the aluminum foil, I think it  
> could work
> straight to board with some heavy work.  But for simplicity first to see  
> about
> something that wipes or sprays on, non-conductive for imaging, etched by  
> acid,
> and toner melts through so it doesn't get etched under.  Maybe something  
> will
> fit that bill..
> Alan


Denny mentioned using a silicone roller under the drum to take the toner,  
and trasnfer it to a heated board.
Me personally, i think it is too complicated a mod to be worth the  
time-savings, but if you want to try...


ST

Stefan Trethan wrote:

> 
> Denny mentioned using a silicone roller under the drum to take the toner,  
> and trasnfer it to a heated board.
> Me personally, i think it is too complicated a mod to be worth the  
> time-savings, but if you want to try...
> 
> 
> ST
> 


   Well I think that anything that worked well direct to board would be worth it 
in short order, the long term ease would beat out a little work to make it. 
Less complex would still be better of course..

   I have the 6L service manual from the net now, it has excellent general 
reference ideas besides just the specifics for the printer.  The paper path is 
reasonably straight once you ignore the vertical in and out paper parts.  They 
canted the fuser slightly, but a little work and it could be straightened out. 
Slots and springs instead of just screw holes to take the thickness of a board 
would be the only other mods needed from the look of it, besides the entry and 
exit of course.  With the service manual for disassembly and 4 spare mechanics, 
it'll get tried soon.  One or two already have cracked up cases too, so not even 
a second thought to do major mods.

   And the corona wire is in the cartridge, so above the paper not below.  Even 
with mobile electrons on the face of the board going to the ends instead of just 
across the thickness, it's still attracting the opposite charge near to the 
corona wire and drum, just like for paper.  So near the wire is the correct 
charge for printing, unlike what happens with a below the paper corona wire with 
a conductive surface to print on.  This may explain why I got imaged prints even 
with larger sections of taped on aluminum foil while many printers don't, they 
just flaked off easily from the smooth foil and poorer fusing to a heat 
conductor.  The mechanical mods and making the fuser a bit hotter or preheating 
the board a bit may be all that is needed for direct printing with these 
printers.  I'll be checking it out very soon since it might be that simple.

Alan

Well, you can try.
I still think direct printing (drum to copper) is a no-go for many reasons.
one beeing the drum will be damaged by the board edges, also the corona  
thing will not work properly.

The silicone roller thing Denny is testing works so far, but for me it  
seems to much work to build compared with the little more effort of  
silicone paper.

ST

On Wed, 25 May 2005 21:29:41 +0200, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:

>
>    Well I think that anything that worked well direct to board would be  
> worth it
> in short order, the long term ease would beat out a little work to make  
> it.
> Less complex would still be better of course..
>   I have the 6L service manual from the net now, it has excellent general
> reference ideas besides just the specifics for the printer.  The paper  
> path is
> reasonably straight once you ignore the vertical in and out paper  
> parts.  They
> canted the fuser slightly, but a little work and it could be  
> straightened out.
> Slots and springs instead of just screw holes to take the thickness of a  
> board
> would be the only other mods needed from the look of it, besides the  
> entry and
> exit of course.  With the service manual for disassembly and 4 spare  
> mechanics,
> it'll get tried soon.  One or two already have cracked up cases too, so  
> not even
> a second thought to do major mods.
>   And the corona wire is in the cartridge, so above the paper not  
> below.  Even
> with mobile electrons on the face of the board going to the ends instead  
> of just
> across the thickness, it's still attracting the opposite charge near to  
> the
> corona wire and drum, just like for paper.  So near the wire is the  
> correct
> charge for printing, unlike what happens with a below the paper corona  
> wire with
> a conductive surface to print on.  This may explain why I got imaged  
> prints even
> with larger sections of taped on aluminum foil while many printers  
> don't, they
> just flaked off easily from the smooth foil and poorer fusing to a heat
> conductor.  The mechanical mods and making the fuser a bit hotter or  
> preheating
> the board a bit may be all that is needed for direct printing with these
> printers.  I'll be checking it out very soon since it might be that  
> simple.
> Alan

Stefan Trethan wrote:

> Well, you can try.
> I still think direct printing (drum to copper) is a no-go for many reasons.
> one beeing the drum will be damaged by the board edges, also the corona  
> thing will not work properly.
> 
> The silicone roller thing Denny is testing works so far, but for me it  
> seems to much work to build compared with the little more effort of  
> silicone paper.
> 
> ST


   A light file pass then tape over the edges will easily protect the drum for 
the most part.  While it may still not last forever printing to scrubbed copper, 
the $50 investment in a secondary laser and a $25 cartridge now and then would 
be a great investment vs all the labor in making and transferring from paper. 
And if you recall the very end of our previous thinking through of modifying a 
laser printer, I think a wire and conductive foam may well work for a bottom 
corona type printer.  But top corona shouldn't even need that.  Explains why I 
had printed text even over 3 or 4 inch sections of foil, only problems were 
wrinkling in the center since I just taped the edges down and flaking from not 
enough fusing and very smooth foil.  First won't happen with a board and second 
is easy to fix.  Looking for the AL foil to refresh my testing again and see 
just how large a sheet I can print.  If it'll do 6"x6" with very little extra 
paper area, then it's probably working like I'm thinking and would work fine for 
about any size board.  Just have to find my spray mount to make it stick to some 
paper.

   If the roller works it wouldn't be that hard either really.  About every kind 
of roller you could ever think of is already made for one printing industry or 
another.  It's also easy enough to skin an old dot matrix printer platen with 
other materials.  Hardest part would be fitting one to an already built printer, 
a little looking around should find a decent match of dot matrix platen to XXX 
laser though for minimum work.

Alan

Stefan Trethan wrote:

>

   Just found my foil and did a large test.  One letter 'i' didn't make it, 
likely due to the wrinkling of the foil.  99% success on a 6"x6" piece of foil. 
  Had a minor problem or two with smaller pieces the first time, wouldn't have 
expected something this large to do as well.  Still should have tried it back 
then just to see though.  I think I know what I'm doing this weekend now..

Alan

On Thu, 26 May 2005 16:10:54 +0200, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:

> Stefan Trethan wrote:
>
>>
>   Just found my foil and did a large test.  One letter 'i' didn't make  
> it,
> likely due to the wrinkling of the foil.  99% success on a 6"x6" piece  
> of foil.
>   Had a minor problem or two with smaller pieces the first time,  
> wouldn't have
> expected something this large to do as well.  Still should have tried it  
> back
> then just to see though.  I think I know what I'm doing this weekend  
> now..
> Alan


even without the HV working ~50% are transferred just by chance.

Still, i do not think it will work. If you show me a picture of a direct  
printed PCB (actually etched), then i will say you were right, otherwise i  
will say i told you so ;-)

ST

On Thu, 26 May 2005 21:12:59 +0200, microsoftwarecontrol  
<microsoftwarecontrol@...> wrote:

> yes. pcb quality should be talken about after etching.
> From my experience, bad etching do happen even toner transfer is
> looking good.
>


Too right, OTOH i have never etched a good board with a bad transfer ;-)

ST

yes. pcb quality should be talken about after etching.

From my experience, bad etching do happen even toner transfer is
looking good.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct printing


> On Thu, 26 May 2005 16:10:54 +0200, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:
>
> > Stefan Trethan wrote:
> >
> >>
> >   Just found my foil and did a large test.  One letter 'i' didn't make
> > it,
> > likely due to the wrinkling of the foil.  99% success on a 6"x6" piece
> > of foil.
> >   Had a minor problem or two with smaller pieces the first time,
> > wouldn't have
> > expected something this large to do as well.  Still should have tried it
> > back
> > then just to see though.  I think I know what I'm doing this weekend
> > now..
> > Alan
>
>
> even without the HV working ~50% are transferred just by chance.
>
> Still, i do not think it will work. If you show me a picture of a direct
> printed PCB (actually etched), then i will say you were right, otherwise i
> will say i told you so ;-)
>
> ST
>
>
>
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