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Making the simplest board

Making the simplest board

2004-09-23 by upand_at_them

Hi guys,

Are there any tips to getting the simplest board with Eagle (free
version)? I have a circuit that is fairly simple, very few
components, but the autorouter in Eagle created something not as
simple as I had hoped.

I did some maneuvering around of the components last night and it
looks much cleaner than the first time through, but since this is my
first board I would really like this one to turn out as a single side
to be etched.

Also, the two copper boards that came with the Radio Shack etching
kit are cheap, thin, and warped. What's a good place to get a better
quality one or two-sided board?

Mike

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Making the simplest board

2004-09-23 by Leon Heller

>From: "upand_at_them" <upand_at_them@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Making the simplest board
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:10:24 -0000
>
>Hi guys,
>
>Are there any tips to getting the simplest board with Eagle (free
>version)? I have a circuit that is fairly simple, very few
>components, but the autorouter in Eagle created something not as
>simple as I had hoped.
>
>I did some maneuvering around of the components last night and it
>looks much cleaner than the first time through, but since this is my
>first board I would really like this one to turn out as a single side
>to be etched.

Don't bother with the autorouter, cheap ones are a waste of time, especially
for single-sided boards. Route it manually.


>
>Also, the two copper boards that came with the Radio Shack etching
>kit are cheap, thin, and warped. What's a good place to get a better
>quality one or two-sided board?

I use Fotoboard 2 for prototyping, available in the UK from Farnell, Rapid
Electronics and Mega Electronics. It's a fibreglass/paper composite and is
very easy to cut and drill. It's available in the US from Farnell.

Leon

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Making the simplest board

2004-09-23 by Stefan Trethan

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:10:24 -0000, upand_at_them
<upand_at_them@...> wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> Are there any tips to getting the simplest board with Eagle (free
> version)? I have a circuit that is fairly simple, very few
> components, but the autorouter in Eagle created something not as
> simple as I had hoped.
>
> I did some maneuvering around of the components last night and it
> looks much cleaner than the first time through, but since this is my
> first board I would really like this one to turn out as a single side
> to be etched.
>
> Also, the two copper boards that came with the Radio Shack etching
> kit are cheap, thin, and warped. What's a good place to get a better
> quality one or two-sided board?
>
> Mike
>
Mike, i'm sorry there is no secret trick to get it routed the best way.
It is a lot of trying, and much more art than anything.
Arrange the components similar to the schematic to start with, and then
move around to resolve most crossing "rubber bands". Leave enough space
between the components to do this. The next step i do is deciding on the
board
shape and moving the parts together again, starting to route the short
signals already.

The autorouter won't do it right, at least for me.
Remember you can use (few!) wire bridges to resolve problems.

Boards: you can buy them at most electronics mail order shops. There is
FR4 (glassfiber)
and phenolic resin (paper). second is easier to drill, first is better
quality.
I buy my boards at ebay in big lots very cheap.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Making the simplest board

2004-09-23 by smartdim@aol.com

In a message dated 9/23/2004 6:18:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
upand_at_them@... writes:

Also, the two copper boards that came with the Radio Shack etching
kit are cheap, thin, and warped. What's a good place to get a better
quality one or two-sided board?

Mike



===========================
$60 for three 2.5 X 3 high quality boards, free designe software

www.expresspcb.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Making the simplest board

2004-09-23 by x xx

People: What might be the reason that every posting made on this group since I signed on two weeks ago, hits my puter in triplicate? Is this something the owner should know?

Sam

Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:10:24 -0000, upand_at_them
wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> Are there any tips to getting the simplest board with Eagle (free
> version)? I have a circuit that is fairly simple, very few
> components, but the autorouter in Eagle created something not as
> simple as I had hoped.
>
> I did some maneuvering around of the components last night and it
> looks much cleaner than the first time through, but since this is my
> first board I would really like this one to turn out as a single side
> to be etched.
>
> Also, the two copper boards that came with the Radio Shack etching
> kit are cheap, thin, and warped. What's a good place to get a better
> quality one or two-sided board?
>
> Mike
>
Mike, i'm sorry there is no secret trick to get it routed the best way.
It is a lot of trying, and much more art than anything.
Arrange the components similar to the schematic to start with, and then
move around to resolve most crossing "rubber bands". Leave enough space
between the components to do this. The next step i do is deciding on the
board
shape and moving the parts together again, starting to route the short
signals already.

The autorouter won't do it right, at least for me.
Remember you can use (few!) wire bridges to resolve problems.

Boards: you can buy them at most electronics mail order shops. There is
FR4 (glassfiber)
and phenolic resin (paper). second is easier to drill, first is better
quality.
I buy my boards at ebay in big lots very cheap.





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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
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---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Making the simplest board

2004-09-23 by JanRwl@AOL.COM

In a message dated 9/23/2004 9:06:03 AM Central Standard Time,
smartdim@... writes:

What's a good place to get a better quality one or two-sided board?



A professional PCB house! No, I'm NOT talking about $$!! The "good ones"
don't use laminate remnants smaller than about 4" wide, and they often GIVE
this away to hobbiests who stop by, or sell it for pennies. Last time I
visited such a place (they now do multi-layer as well as 2-sided PTH), they gave me
maybe six or seven lbs. of the stuff, and in four years, I'm not half-way
through it all! ONE caveat: It is mostly 1/2 oz. copper, as ALL their stuff
involves PTH, so it gets "thickened" in the plating process. But, that only
means the user hasta be "more carefuller"!

Jan Rowland


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Making the simplest board

2004-09-23 by Earl T. Hackett, Jr.

Just about any of the electronics suppliers have small pieces of board stock in their catalog. I like Jameco, but in the US you can check DigiKey or Mouser. In Europe or the UK check Maplin. I particularly like Maplin's strip boards for a quick prototype.
----- Original Message -----
From: upand_at_them
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:10 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Making the simplest board


Also, the two copper boards that came with the Radio Shack etching
kit are cheap, thin, and warped. What's a good place to get a better
quality one or two-sided board?

Mike



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Making the simplest board - ExpressPCB

2004-09-24 by Dave Mucha

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, smartdim@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/23/2004 6:18:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> upand_at_them@y... writes:
>
> Also, the two copper boards that came with the Radio Shack etching
> kit are cheap, thin, and warped. What's a good place to get a
better
> quality one or two-sided board?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> ===========================
> $60 for three 2.5 X 3 high quality boards, free designe software
>
> www.expresspcb.com


Easily the simplest starter software. all hand routing but allows
you control of the project.

I had a guy who would do basic circuits for me and then I'd move them
to WinQCAD to get the Gerber files.

Dave



Dave




>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-24 by upand_at_them

I just realized something...

How can I solder a two-sided board if I'm using sockets for the
IC's? Ugh!

And some of the traces *can* be moved to the bottom, but Eagle is
routing them on top.

Mike

Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-24 by Phil

If you want to do a single sided board with the autorouter, in the
autorouter setup dialog box, look in the preferred directions group
and select N/A for layer 1 Top. The autorouter will try to do a
single sided board. Dont be suprised if it gives up, its pretty
stupid (like most autorouters). You will pretty quickly discover that
some boards simply cant be done single sided. Especially if you do
surface mount stuff. And of course you have heard dont waste your
time with the autorouter - sage advice.

Its not that bad to do double sided boards, though. You just have to
lay out your board with what I call "non-plated through hole design
rules". Basically, where you have an inaccessable pad (like a socket,
relay, crystal, flush mounted LED, etc), you simply put a via to the
solder side. With eagle, you just drop a via on the trace near the
pin in question and then mirror the trace between the via and the pin.

Vias are easy to do. Take a thin piece of wire (I use stripped 28 Ga
from discarded cat 5) and thread it through all the via holes. Then
solder both sides of each via and snip off the wires as flush as you
can. A quick touch of the iron cleans up the vias but its not
necessary. You can also use a DMM to buzz out your connections before
you snip off the wire. With this technique, I can do a lot of vias in
10-15 minutes or so.

Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "upand_at_them"
<upand_at_them@y...> wrote:
> I just realized something...
>
> How can I solder a two-sided board if I'm using sockets for the
> IC's? Ugh!
>
> And some of the traces *can* be moved to the bottom, but Eagle is
> routing them on top.
>
> Mike

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-24 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "upand_at_them" <upand_at_them@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 4:34 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board


>I just realized something...
>
> How can I solder a two-sided board if I'm using sockets for the
> IC's? Ugh!

Turned pin sockets can be soldered top and bottom if they are raised
slightly, clear of the board top. It's rather fiddly, though, and you'll
melt some of the plastic when soldering the top.


>
> And some of the traces *can* be moved to the bottom, but Eagle is
> routing them on top.

Route it manually.

Leon

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-24 by Alex Hay

Mike,

> And some of the traces *can* be moved to the bottom, but Eagle is
> routing them on top.

Two options in Eagle:

First, try turning off the top and autorouting everything on the
bottom. When you click the autoroute button, the window that pops up
allows you to choose which direction to route each layer, or you can
turn a layer off by selecting "N/A". If you've got just one or two
wires that didn't route, you can make jumpers. (Or run traces yourself
on the top layer, with vias to pass the signal through.)

Second, check out the following ULPS. (I cut and pasted from Cadsoft's
Download
page for ULPs.) One of them might work for you.

restrict-4.03.ulp 3,854 5,721 Tue Nov 6 03:38:52 2001
A modified version of restrict.ulp. This restrict.ulp accurately
restrict pads according to pad type. Purpose of this script is to restrict
top component pads to be included in the double sided Autorouting.
Uploaded by Gary Cho <ngaihua at iastate.edu>
restrict.ulp 2,745 6,927 Fri Mar 9 02:11:30 2001
This ULP puts RECTs on the 'tRestrict' layer around all the pads. You
may want this if you want to make a double-sided board, but only want to
solder on the bottom layer.
This ULP is only a slight adaptation from the obsolete '0V_restr.ulp'.
It now runs in Eagle 4.01 and includes all connected pads.
Uploaded by Marc Hoppenbrouwers <marckyh at dds.nl> from At home


-Alex

---------------------------------

Alex Hay
Systems Engineer
alex@...

LFI International
13221 SE 26th Street, Suite H
Bellevue, Washington 98005
U.S.A.

(425) 644-2777 Voice
(425) 644-0330 FAX

www.lfiinternational.com

"Create the Experience"

---------------------------------






-----Original Message-----
From: upand_at_them [mailto:upand_at_them@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:35 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board


I just realized something...

How can I solder a two-sided board if I'm using sockets for the
IC's? Ugh!

And some of the traces *can* be moved to the bottom, but Eagle is
routing them on top.

Mike






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-24 by upand_at_them

Thanks for all the good advice guys. I now only have six wires left
on top to reroute.

Mike

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Making the simplest board

2004-09-24 by Earl T. Hackett, Jr.

I'm getting the same thing. Yahoo did this once before a couple of years ago.
----- Original Message -----
From: x xx
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Making the simplest board


People: What might be the reason that every posting made on this group since I signed on two weeks ago, hits my puter in triplicate? Is this something the owner should know?

Sam

Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:10:24 -0000, upand_at_them
wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> Are there any tips to getting the simplest board with Eagle (free
> version)? I have a circuit that is fairly simple, very few
> components, but the autorouter in Eagle created something not as
> simple as I had hoped.
>
> I did some maneuvering around of the components last night and it
> looks much cleaner than the first time through, but since this is my
> first board I would really like this one to turn out as a single side
> to be etched.
>
> Also, the two copper boards that came with the Radio Shack etching
> kit are cheap, thin, and warped. What's a good place to get a better
> quality one or two-sided board?
>
> Mike
>
Mike, i'm sorry there is no secret trick to get it routed the best way.
It is a lot of trying, and much more art than anything.
Arrange the components similar to the schematic to start with, and then
move around to resolve most crossing "rubber bands". Leave enough space
between the components to do this. The next step i do is deciding on the
board
shape and moving the parts together again, starting to route the short
signals already.

The autorouter won't do it right, at least for me.
Remember you can use (few!) wire bridges to resolve problems.

Boards: you can buy them at most electronics mail order shops. There is
FR4 (glassfiber)
and phenolic resin (paper). second is easier to drill, first is better
quality.
I buy my boards at ebay in big lots very cheap.





Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
Yahoo! Groups Links








---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
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ADVERTISEMENT





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-24 by Alexandre Souza

> How can I solder a two-sided board if I'm using sockets for the
> IC's? Ugh!
> And some of the traces *can* be moved to the bottom, but Eagle is
> routing them on top.

As the wife of someone here of this list said before, "routing PCB is an
art", and something you should master.

At home, I use just CIRCAD. I do mostly single-sided boards, routed
manually (I LOVE TO DO THAT, believe me!) and every jumper I must use, I do
like a top layer trace. So I just change top layer mask for jumpers :o)

If you NEED to do double sided boards, you have some tips:
- Do you know that hundred-pack of resistors that jameco sells? That
1/16th W small things? They have a wire SO THIN that you can put then into a
pcb hole WITH The component or the socket.. So you can solder it on top and
on the bottom
- Use extra vias for interconnecting top and bottom pcb traces. Use a
small component wire to join then
- Be an expert on the art of doing single sided boards :o) I did a 1MB
memory board for use on an EPROM emulator, using 32K SRAMs taken from used
486 motherboards (yeah, 32 chips on a board, I'll need a good PSU for this
toy!) with two rows of 16 chips, with only some jumpers. I can post a photo
of the board just in case you are interested to see (and hold on because
I'll put the entire project on the net as soon as I can make it work with a
good program,
- Use a decent program. Eagle is good, but besides the autorouter,
nothing beats Circad :o)

Greetings from Brazil,
Alexandre


---
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http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/blog
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-24 by Dwayne Reid

At 09:34 PM 9/23/2004, upand_at_them wrote:
>I just realized something...
>
>How can I solder a two-sided board if I'm using sockets for the
>IC's? Ugh!

In addition to the other advice already given, also consider the use of
machine pin IC sockets - Augat & Assman come to mind. Their design allows
easy soldering of top side connections.

I will often add a short stub 0.062" wide to the outside edge of all
top-side IC pin connections - these serve as a marker to ensure that I
don't miss a top-side connection on a socket as well as providing just a
little more surface area for easier soldering. That width of 0.062" is the
width of the IC pads.

One of my techs had another trick that is often useful - he would go into
the plot files for the board in question and manually delete any top-side
pads that had no connection. I'm not quite sure how he determined just
what to delete (it's just a file full of numbers) but however he did it, it
was remarkably effective in ensuring that all top-side connections were made.

dwayne

--
Dwayne Reid <dwayner@...>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 20 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2004)
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Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-24 by upand_at_them

Thanks.

I just finished routing my board. And I ended up with just one
jumper on top. :))

Mike

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-24 by JanRwl@AOL.COM

In a message dated 9/23/2004 10:49:19 PM Central Standard Time,
upand_at_them@... writes:

How can I solder a two-sided board if I'm using sockets for the IC's?
Ugh!<<
Mike: Obviously, the BEST way to do this is to use a PTH board. But if you
are talking about your own home-brew, it IS a frustration, at times, isn't
it! For non-PTH work, use eyelets. I don't remember the name of the firm
from which I bought my last 1000 (for a fortune! They are VERY proud of their
products!), but I still have more than I may use in this lifetime! Another
way I have used with GREAT care: Strip a couple inches or so of #28 or #30
Kynar (silver-plated) wire-wrap wire. make a tiny loop in one end, push the
wire through the hole, and bend the loop over so it "rings" the hole nicely.
CAREFULLY solder that so it doesn't plug the hole. Then, pull it tight against
the hole-wall, and make a similar loop on the other side. Solder that (or,
just "tack it" for now). Solder in your IC-socket as normal, and you have it!
Now, if you played footbawl in HS, you may have to practice, and don't make
such a "lump" on the top side before inserting the IC socket. You could
"wick it off" with some "solder-wick" stuff, but leave a proper "fillet" of
solder to hold the wire-loop down all around. We po' folks gotta simply learn to
INVENT and do! Good luck! Jan Rowland, old troll







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-24 by upand_at_them

Good advice. Thanks, Jan.

Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, JanRwl@A... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/23/2004 10:49:19 PM Central Standard Time,
> upand_at_them@y... writes:
>
> How can I solder a two-sided board if I'm using sockets for the
IC's?
> Ugh!<<
> Mike: Obviously, the BEST way to do this is to use a PTH board.
But if you
> are talking about your own home-brew, it IS a frustration, at
times, isn't
> it! For non-PTH work, use eyelets. I don't remember the name of
the firm
> from which I bought my last 1000 (for a fortune! They are VERY
proud of their
> products!), but I still have more than I may use in this
lifetime! Another
> way I have used with GREAT care: Strip a couple inches or so of
#28 or #30
> Kynar (silver-plated) wire-wrap wire. make a tiny loop in one
end, push the
> wire through the hole, and bend the loop over so it "rings" the
hole nicely.
> CAREFULLY solder that so it doesn't plug the hole. Then, pull it
tight against
> the hole-wall, and make a similar loop on the other side. Solder
that (or,
> just "tack it" for now). Solder in your IC-socket as normal, and
you have it!
> Now, if you played footbawl in HS, you may have to practice, and
don't make
> such a "lump" on the top side before inserting the IC socket. You
could
> "wick it off" with some "solder-wick" stuff, but leave a
proper "fillet" of
> solder to hold the wire-loop down all around. We po' folks gotta
simply learn to
> INVENT and do! Good luck! Jan Rowland, old troll
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-24 by Stefan Trethan

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:02:53 EDT, <JanRwl@...> wrote:

> In a message dated 9/23/2004 10:49:19 PM Central Standard Time,
> upand_at_them@... writes:
>
> How can I solder a two-sided board if I'm using sockets for the IC's?
> Ugh!<<

Precision sockets (the kind with round turned pins) are
very easy to solder top side. i usually apply the iron from the outside
and feed the solder from the inside to get a good all-round joint.
No burning of the plastic if you use a 1mm penciltip and 1mm solder.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-24 by JanRwl@AOL.COM

In a message dated 9/24/2004 4:05:06 AM Central Standard Time,
leon_heller@... writes:

Route it manually.




Amen! What don't you youngsters understand about Bishop Graphics and
"stick-on patterns" and tape????? A HUMAN brain is FAR more facile at laying out a
PC-board than a PC! Uh . . . Isn't it? Most? SOME???


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-24 by Earl T. Hackett, Jr.

20 some odd years ago we visited China to set up some modern PCB shops. We took along some test pattern PCBs made in our lab. Our Chinese hosts were most gracious when we showed them the test patterns. Then they went sort of nuts. We of course didn't understand a word of their conversation. Finally one of the group decided to try his English on us;

"how you do tlick?"

We finally discovered that they had never seen plated through holes and couldn't understand where the rivits/eyelets went.

----- Original Message -----
From: JanRwl@...
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board


In a message dated 9/23/2004 10:49:19 PM Central Standard Time,
upand_at_them@... writes:

How can I solder a two-sided board if I'm using sockets for the IC's?
Ugh!<<
Mike: Obviously, the BEST way to do this is to use a PTH board. But if you
are talking about your own home-brew, it IS a frustration, at times, isn't
it! For non-PTH work, use eyelets.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-25 by ben_englund

> Also, the two copper boards that came with the Radio Shack etching
> kit are cheap, thin, and warped. What's a good place to get a
better
> quality one or two-sided board?


I like surplus sources like Electronics Goldmine

Others that I think have some

Allelectronics
BGMicro
ElectronicsExpress

Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-25 by upand_at_them

Wow, Electronic Goldmine's boards are cheap. And they're also only
0.026" (0.66mm) thick.

Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ben_englund"
<ben_englund@t...> wrote:
> > Also, the two copper boards that came with the Radio Shack
etching
> > kit are cheap, thin, and warped. What's a good place to get a
> better
> > quality one or two-sided board?
>
>
> I like surplus sources like Electronics Goldmine
>
> Others that I think have some
>
> Allelectronics
> BGMicro
> ElectronicsExpress

Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-25 by Phil

there are often good deals on ebay. I got 10 6"x14" 1 oz, FR4, 0.062
double sided boards for $25 + $10 (or so) for shipping. Not exactly a
lifetime supply but it will last a while.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ben_englund" <ben_englund@t...>
wrote:
> > Also, the two copper boards that came with the Radio Shack etching
> > kit are cheap, thin, and warped. What's a good place to get a
> better
> > quality one or two-sided board?
>
>
> I like surplus sources like Electronics Goldmine
>
> Others that I think have some
>
> Allelectronics
> BGMicro
> ElectronicsExpress

Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-25 by Phil

they work just fine - I bought some a year ago. Thin has an advantage
that when you are doing double sided boards, you can see the traces
through the board quite clearly. Drilling is a little easier and less
wearing on your bits. Useful for perfecting your techniques.

To be sure, I prefer .062. It is much more rigid but I have a number
of projects based on the 0.026 stuff that are working just fine.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "upand_at_them"
<upand_at_them@y...> wrote:
> Wow, Electronic Goldmine's boards are cheap. And they're also only
> 0.026" (0.66mm) thick.
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ben_englund"
> <ben_englund@t...> wrote:
> > > Also, the two copper boards that came with the Radio Shack
> etching
> > > kit are cheap, thin, and warped. What's a good place to get a
> > better
> > > quality one or two-sided board?
> >
> >
> > I like surplus sources like Electronics Goldmine
> >
> > Others that I think have some
> >
> > Allelectronics
> > BGMicro
> > ElectronicsExpress

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-25 by John Baker

Forgive me for butting in, but I was wondering where I might find a 1mm penciltip iron?
Regards,
John Baker

Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:02:53 EDT, wrote:

> In a message dated 9/23/2004 10:49:19 PM Central Standard Time,
> upand_at_them@... writes:
>
> How can I solder a two-sided board if I'm using sockets for the IC's?
> Ugh!<<

Precision sockets (the kind with round turned pins) are
very easy to solder top side. i usually apply the iron from the outside
and feed the solder from the inside to get a good all-round joint.
No burning of the plastic if you use a 1mm penciltip and 1mm solder.

ST




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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board - 1mm iron tips

2004-09-25 by Stefan Trethan

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 03:04:33 -0700 (PDT), John Baker
<johnbaker_erie_pa@...> wrote:

> Forgive me for butting in, but I was wondering where I might find a 1mm
> penciltip iron?
> Regards,
> John Baker

I buy them as replacement tips at my electronics mail order.
It's a standard size/shape i thought.

If you want to see a picture:
At the very bottom, i use type 832=602BD.
<http://www.elcomp.at/Sit-Grup/Gr17/17-02-04C-Loetspitzen.htm>

I also have one of the longer ones. It needs more temperature if you do
"heavier"
work, because of the long shaft. I rarely use it also because it doesn't
fit into
the iron stand, it touches the back, so take the shortest version if you
can select.
You don't gain much from below 1mm anyway.

The other tip is use is the 602ED with a 3mm broad tip, it comes with the
iron.
It is good for throughhole components normal soldering, but the 1mm works
there too. I probably buy the 2.2mm
and the 5mm at some point, just to have a complete set. The broad one
might be nice
for the heavy stuff.

I reckon you can make your own from copper, but it won't last more than a
day.
I'm sure you can buy those tips somewhere locally, but if not a padded
letter only
costs ~3eur shipping.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board - 1mm iron tips

2004-09-25 by John Baker

Thanks for the site. I was just tired of ordering things from radioshack (a 1mm tip is $11 with $5 shipping).
Best regards,
John

Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 03:04:33 -0700 (PDT), John Baker
wrote:

> Forgive me for butting in, but I was wondering where I might find a 1mm
> penciltip iron?
> Regards,
> John Baker

I buy them as replacement tips at my electronics mail order.
It's a standard size/shape i thought.

If you want to see a picture:
At the very bottom, i use type 832=602BD.


I also have one of the longer ones. It needs more temperature if you do
"heavier"
work, because of the long shaft. I rarely use it also because it doesn't
fit into
the iron stand, it touches the back, so take the shortest version if you
can select.
You don't gain much from below 1mm anyway.

The other tip is use is the 602ED with a 3mm broad tip, it comes with the
iron.
It is good for throughhole components normal soldering, but the 1mm works
there too. I probably buy the 2.2mm
and the 5mm at some point, just to have a complete set. The broad one
might be nice
for the heavy stuff.

I reckon you can make your own from copper, but it won't last more than a
day.
I'm sure you can buy those tips somewhere locally, but if not a padded
letter only
costs ~3eur shipping.

ST




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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board - 1mm iron tips

2004-09-25 by Stefan Trethan

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 05:18:01 -0700 (PDT), John Baker
<johnbaker_erie_pa@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the site. I was just tired of ordering things from radioshack
> (a 1mm tip is $11 with $5 shipping).
> Best regards,
> John

Well, 'course you could order the tips from the URL i suggested but
it certainly isn't the closest shop. the prices are without VAT, i believe
now one must pay it even if exported so you need to add 20%.
If you are interested in shipping costs from Austria:
<http://www.post.at/content/produkte/briefe/produkte_briefe_1547.htm>

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-25 by JanRwl@AOL.COM

In a message dated 9/25/2004 5:05:23 AM Central Standard Time,
johnbaker_erie_pa@... writes:

Forgive me for butting in, but I was wondering where I might find a 1mm
penciltip iron?



John! No "butting in" at all! I had a "Princess" iron by Ungar some years
back, before SMT and the invention of the light-bulb, and IT came with TINY
tips of several shapes. Cost a week's wages (for those days)! Body was no
larger than a ball-point pen. Was 15 W. as I recall. I haven't had to buy a
new iron in SO long, it has gotten difficult to find replacement (iron-plated)
tips for my "normal size" Ungar irons!

Suggest you simply Google Ungar and then see if they still sell the
"Princess" line. (surely a product-concept of a gender-challenged person!)
Jan Rowland


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-25 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: <JanRwl@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board


>
> In a message dated 9/25/2004 5:05:23 AM Central Standard Time,
> johnbaker_erie_pa@... writes:
>
> Forgive me for butting in, but I was wondering where I might find a 1mm
> penciltip iron?
>
>
>
> John! No "butting in" at all! I had a "Princess" iron by Ungar some
> years
> back, before SMT and the invention of the light-bulb, and IT came with
> TINY
> tips of several shapes. Cost a week's wages (for those days)! Body was
> no
> larger than a ball-point pen. Was 15 W. as I recall. I haven't had to
> buy a
> new iron in SO long, it has gotten difficult to find replacement
> (iron-plated)
> tips for my "normal size" Ungar irons!
>
> Suggest you simply Google Ungar and then see if they still sell the
> "Princess" line. (surely a product-concept of a gender-challenged
> person!)
> Jan Rowland

Ungar was taken over by Weller, a few years ago. I had an Ungar iron for
years, and Weller refurbished it for me when it developed a fault. The tips
used to last for ages - they were much better than those for the Weller
irons.

Leon

Leon

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-25 by John Baker

Thanks for all this info. I'm fairly new to making PCBs, but do a lot of PCB repair work. I've gone through soo many radioshack $7 irons.
Best regards,
John Baker

Leon Heller <leon_heller@...> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: <JanRwl@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board


>
> In a message dated 9/25/2004 5:05:23 AM Central Standard Time,
> johnbaker_erie_pa@... writes:
>
> Forgive me for butting in, but I was wondering where I might find a 1mm
> penciltip iron?
>
>
>
> John! No "butting in" at all! I had a "Princess" iron by Ungar some
> years
> back, before SMT and the invention of the light-bulb, and IT came with
> TINY
> tips of several shapes. Cost a week's wages (for those days)! Body was
> no
> larger than a ball-point pen. Was 15 W. as I recall. I haven't had to
> buy a
> new iron in SO long, it has gotten difficult to find replacement
> (iron-plated)
> tips for my "normal size" Ungar irons!
>
> Suggest you simply Google Ungar and then see if they still sell the
> "Princess" line. (surely a product-concept of a gender-challenged
> person!)
> Jan Rowland

Ungar was taken over by Weller, a few years ago. I had an Ungar iron for
years, and Weller refurbished it for me when it developed a fault. The tips
used to last for ages - they were much better than those for the Weller
irons.

Leon

Leon


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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-25 by JanRwl@AOL.COM

In a message dated 9/25/2004 11:56:33 AM Central Standard Time,
leon_heller@... writes:

Ungar was taken over by Weller, a few years ago.<<
I did NOT know that! Explains a few things for me (some local distributors
never HEARD of Ungar! . . . Children?)

I had an Ungar iron for years, and Weller refurbished it for me when it
developed a fault. The tips used to last for ages - they were much better than
those for the Weller irons.<<
Ain't that the way of the world! [expletive deleted!]

Thanks, Leon! Jan





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-25 by Stefan Trethan

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 10:29:36 -0700 (PDT), John Baker
<johnbaker_erie_pa@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks for all this info. I'm fairly new to making PCBs, but do a lot of
> PCB repair work. I've gone through soo many radioshack $7 irons.
> Best regards,
> John Baker

Most longlife-coated tips last very long.
My ERSA tips are still OK after several years.
You can eat away a copper tip in a day or so.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-26 by Alan King

Phil wrote:

> there are often good deals on ebay. I got 10 6"x14" 1 oz, FR4, 0.062
> double sided boards for $25 + $10 (or so) for shipping. Not exactly a
> lifetime supply but it will last a while.
>

Second that, Ebay is great for this if you're not in a hurry and wait for a
good deal. I've seen 40 new 12" by 16" boards go for $10 and similar once in a
while. Usually not quite that good of a deal though.

Some other general notes:

For easy project making, try turning off the bottom of the board, not the top.
Solder everything to the top like a live bug standing up. No holes for anything
makes it go much faster. Connectors at the edges spanning the edge for things
like DB-9's etc, leave a pad and run a wire to the bottom pins. Just make sure
and leave some space to get to components to mount them after other componenets
are on the board. A little extra board space is cheap, and no holes at all
beats even setting up a drilling machine.

Eagle autorouter is excellent, but takes quite a bit of tweaking the settings to
get it routing reasonably, the defaults can route but really suck for making a
good board.. Some of the settings seem clear by name, but actually cause
effects different than you'd think from the name because of how they interact
with other settings. And so you don't have to figure it out, 'malus' is a bad
extra, just like 'bonus' is a good extra. So 'malus step' is an extra step in
the wrong direction when the trace is already headed in the wrong direction, for
costing..

Alan

Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-27 by ben_englund

Hey John,
Some tips for making those $7 irons last longer.
1. keep it clean
2. keep it "tinned"
3. don't overheat it (use a smaller iron when you can)
4. KEEP IT CLEAN

Any other tips anyone?

Ben Englund


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, John Baker
<johnbaker_erie_pa@y...> wrote:
> Thanks for all this info. I'm fairly new to making PCBs, but do a
lot of PCB repair work. I've gone through soo many radioshack $7
irons.
> Best regards,
> John Baker

Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-27 by ben_englund

I kept going through 30watt irons, tips and elements. Then I got a
15watt iron. Lasts alot longer. Of course I have a problem of
forgetting to unplug them. Left one on for days once. Didn't work
the next time I went to use it.

Ben Englund


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, John Baker
<johnbaker_erie_pa@y...> wrote:
> Thanks for all this info. I'm fairly new to making PCBs, but do a
lot of PCB repair work. I've gone through soo many radioshack $7
irons.
> Best regards,
> John Baker

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-27 by Larry Taylor

Use a Lamp Dimmer or a small autotransformer to turn down the power to your Iron. They will last along time and you can adjust the heat. Works great!!!
Larry Taylor KF6JBG

From: ben_englund
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 10:40 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board


I kept going through 30watt irons, tips and elements. Then I got a
15watt iron. Lasts alot longer. Of course I have a problem of
forgetting to unplug them. Left one on for days once. Didn't work
the next time I went to use it.

Ben Englund


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, John Baker
<johnbaker_erie_pa@y...> wrote:
> Thanks for all this info. I'm fairly new to making PCBs, but do a
lot of PCB repair work. I've gone through soo many radioshack $7
irons.
> Best regards,
> John Baker




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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-27 by JanRwl@AOL.COM

In a message dated 9/27/2004 12:47:41 AM Central Standard Time,
cvrcsoaring@... writes:

Use a Lamp Dimmer or a small autotransformer to turn down the power to your
Iron. They will last along time and you can adjust the heat. Works great!!!




Larry: You suggest two methods here, the effects on the life of a
heating-element or light-bulb completely different! If the "Lamp Dimmer" you mean is
the triac-duty-cycle control kind you buy at Home Depot, the "chopping" those
cause make a lamp-filament or heating-element vibrate, often even AUDIBLY,
and this will NOTICEABLY shorten the useful life! My front-door light is left
on during dark hours, and the bulb goes out three or four times per year.
Once when the dimmer failed, I temporarily installed a plain switch, and the
bulb lasted more than a year. Of course, it was a pain to remember to switch
it off during daylight hours, so I eventually fixed the photo-switch/dimmer,
and same thing, again, very, very soon after "working again". Moral:
Chopped 60 Hz. is TERMINAL to lights and heating-elements! Though initially more
expensive, an autotransformer (Variac) would EXTEND the life of either, of
course! JRR


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-27 by Larry Taylor

Yes Filaments are prone to break with vibrations and flexing from the on/off. I have been using mine through a transformer for Isolation and have used the same Iron for 5 + years. It works fine and I use it daily at work. It will be on an hour or two if I don't forget to turn it off. The Auto Transformer would be the best, but its the hard thing to find cheap. I don't have one so I used a light dimmer.
Larry Taylor KF6JBG

----- Original Message -----
From: JanRwl@...
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board



In a message dated 9/27/2004 12:47:41 AM Central Standard Time,
cvrcsoaring@... writes:

Use a Lamp Dimmer or a small autotransformer to turn down the power to your
Iron. They will last along time and you can adjust the heat. Works great!!!




Larry: You suggest two methods here, the effects on the life of a
heating-element or light-bulb completely different! If the "Lamp Dimmer" you mean is
the triac-duty-cycle control kind you buy at Home Depot, the "chopping" those
cause make a lamp-filament or heating-element vibrate, often even AUDIBLY,
and this will NOTICEABLY shorten the useful life! My front-door light is left
on during dark hours, and the bulb goes out three or four times per year.
Once when the dimmer failed, I temporarily installed a plain switch, and the
bulb lasted more than a year. Of course, it was a pain to remember to switch
it off during daylight hours, so I eventually fixed the photo-switch/dimmer,
and same thing, again, very, very soon after "working again". Moral:
Chopped 60 Hz. is TERMINAL to lights and heating-elements! Though initially more
expensive, an autotransformer (Variac) would EXTEND the life of either, of
course! JRR


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-27 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "ben_englund" <ben_englund@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 6:36 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board


> Hey John,
> Some tips for making those $7 irons last longer.
> 1. keep it clean
> 2. keep it "tinned"
> 3. don't overheat it (use a smaller iron when you can)
> 4. KEEP IT CLEAN
>
> Any other tips anyone?

Put a diode and switch into the line wire connection, so that the power may
be reduced when it isn't actually being used. The bit will last a lot
longer.

Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-28 by John Baker

Well that you all for all the tips. I will try out these suggestions.
Best regards,
John Baker

Leon Heller <leon_heller@...> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "ben_englund" <ben_englund@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 6:36 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Making the simplest board


> Hey John,
> Some tips for making those $7 irons last longer.
> 1. keep it clean
> 2. keep it "tinned"
> 3. don't overheat it (use a smaller iron when you can)
> 4. KEEP IT CLEAN
>
> Any other tips anyone?

Put a diode and switch into the line wire connection, so that the power may
be reduced when it isn't actually being used. The bit will last a lot
longer.

Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller


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Re: Making the simplest board

2004-09-29 by grantfair2001

Several months ago I found I was going through many Radio Shack
soldering iron tips very quickly. I then found some Kester Ultrapure
Tip Tinner - it has no lead at all in it, and so it leaves a coating
of tin on the tip. Since then, I have been using the same tip for many
months.

I also use a lamp dimmer to crank back the temperature when I'm not
using the iron right away but plan to fairly soon.

Both these seem to have helped. But I think the tip tinning stuff was
the most important, since I accidentally left the iron on overnight,
and the tip was still fine.

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, John Baker
<johnbaker_erie_pa@y...> wrote:
> Thanks for all this info. I'm fairly new to making PCBs, but do a
lot of PCB repair work. I've gone through soo many radioshack $7 irons.
> Best regards,
> John Baker