Homebrew_PCBs

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mdgolfbum" <jim@j...> wrote:
> Is there a website that describes rules for layout that will ensure
> adequate spacing for pick and place machines?
>
> I'm doing a few by hand but if the project is successful I might
> have a shot a selling a thousand or so. Can't see myself sitting in
> the basement soldering finelines that long...
>
> tnx
> jtm

> Is there a website that describes rules for layout that will ensure
> adequate spacing for pick and place machines?
>
> I'm doing a few by hand but if the project is successful I might
> have a shot a selling a thousand or so. Can't see myself sitting in
> the basement soldering finelines that long...
>
> tnx
> jtm

>
> I have about 10 boards with smt parts that I would like to get done.
> The next bunch will hopefully be 100 boards and then after that,
> 1,000 boards.
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:24 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Pick and place rules for layout?


> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mdgolfbum" <jim@j...> wrote:
> > Is there a website that describes rules for layout that will ensure
> > adequate spacing for pick and place machines?
> >
> > I'm doing a few by hand but if the project is successful I might
> > have a shot a selling a thousand or so. Can't see myself sitting in
> > the basement soldering finelines that long...
> >
> > tnx
> > jtm
>
>
> I am in the same boat.
>
> I have about 10 boards with smt parts that I would like to get done.
> The next bunch will hopefully be 100 boards and then after that,
> 1,000 boards.
>
> I did a little checking and found one guy who will do boards for
> something about 25 cents per SMT part and 75 cents per thru-hole
> part. yup, a resistor is a thru-hole and yes, I pay 2 cents for them
> too.
>
>
> did more checking...
>
> Outsource to China and the price structure changed to $200 set-up,
> $250 engineering charge and two cents per part. that is much better
> for the 1,000 board project than the 10 board or 100 board ones.
>
> I also just started looking into silkscreen or template for screening
> on solder paste for toaster oven soldering. That starts at about
> $75.00 for a metal, laser cut stencil, or I can cut the solder pads
> our of plastic with an exacto knife.
>
> Anyone know the thickness for solder paste ?
>
> Alternately, a solder paste dispenser would be a great addition to
> the shop.

This is a useful page:

http://www.pcbexpress.com/stencils/apply_solder_paste.php

The thickness is determined by the stencil thickness.

Leon

> > Alternately, a solder paste dispenser would be a
> great addition to
> > the shop.

>
> http://www.pad2pad.com/company/index.php

> http://www.olimex.com

>
>
> best regards,
> Vasile
> http://surducan.netfirms.com

>
> I'm putting 4 seperate type of board on one panel and many of hte
> board houses I have contacted have been more than willing to do the
> step and repeat for me, others flatly refuse.

>
> Olimex is one of the very few that have offered to cut the panels
> into smaller sections for no charge.
>
> But, I need them in a large panel to do the soldering.
>
> Seems there is always some little problem with something.

>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Dave Mucha wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm putting 4 seperate type of board on one panel and many of hte
> > board houses I have contacted have been more than willing to do

> > step and repeat for me, others flatly refuse.
>
> would you so kind and tell me which CAD are using ? I'm using

> now, but it seems there is no panelisation possibilities... Copying

> paste all layers are forbidden.
>
> >
> > Olimex is one of the very few that have offered to cut the panels
> > into smaller sections for no charge.
> >
> > But, I need them in a large panel to do the soldering.
> >
> > Seems there is always some little problem with something.
>
> I don't know how large "mass" production do you have, but till

> pieces I don't see any impediment in cutting boards "at home".
>
> best,
> Vasile
> http://surducan.netfirms.com

> > $75.00 for a metal, laser cut stencil, or I can cut the solder pads
> > our of plastic with an exacto knife.

>In Homebrew_PCBs, "Ron Amundson" <ron_amundson@h...> wrote:
> In the past, one could get chemically etched stencils, but they did
> not work anywhere near as well as the laser cut ones.

> For a couple boards, probably the xacto might work, but
> for even 10, you really need the precision, otherwise you pay for
> it in rework time.

> Used EFD machines are pretty cheap<s>

> Did some experimenting...
>
> I have now etched away the copper of both welding rods, which nicely
> saturated my etchant too...
>
> 1 rod is 8mm * 22cm i think which is 55 square cm.
> i connected both rods together to get ~~100 square centimeters.
>
>
> for the other electrode i used a copper wire, diameter about 4mm and
> length 10cm.
> which is 12,5cm square.
>
> i can only prevent chlorine gas by currents well below 0,5A (you know it
> is hard to tell when
> there is really no gas).
>
> - that would be 5mA / square cm at the carbon then.

> However i think the area of the copper wire is too big, i can not get
> hydrogen at all, even
> if there is severe chlorine. so i assumed it is too big and now i use a
> 1.5mm^2 wire immersed
> only 2 centimeters. now i get hydrogen before i get chlorine.

> The copper plates like a sponge, and it is kind of hard to get it out
> without
> shaking it all off again (and loosing it in the etchant).

>
> I have also another question about chlorine, what are those tablets made
> of for the swimming pool?

>
> Can I ask why are you trying to produce hydrogen gas at all ?
> Are you saying that no visible signs of copper are plated without also
> producing hydrogen gas at the cathode ? If this is the case then you must
> have very little copper dissolved in the solution, such it would almost
> look very pale clear green.
>

> that's correct. When metal and gas co-deposit you get metal sponge.

>
>>
>> I have also another question about chlorine, what are those tablets made
>> of for the swimming pool?
>
> calcium hypochlorite. This may regenerate CuCl2 etchant but I'm not sure
> the effect of byproduct, calcium chloride. It may not make a truly
> reusable
> etchant. commercially, they sometimes use sodium chlorate, which is
> similar
> except it is a more powerful oxidant, (more economical), and the
> byproduct
> is sodium chloride.

> Ron,
>
> I interested in a couple things you bring up... Snips, Questions
> below>
>
>> In Homebrew_PCBs, "Ron Amundson" <ron_amundson@h...> wrote:
>> In the past, one could get chemically etched stencils, but they did
>> not work anywhere near as well as the laser cut ones.
>
> What were the problems with the chemically etched compared to laser
> cut? IOW, please explain "work anywhere near as well"?
>

> >> In the past, one could get chemically etched stencils, but they did
> >> not work anywhere near as well as the laser cut ones.
> >
> > What were the problems with the chemically etched compared to laser
> > cut? IOW, please explain "work anywhere near as well"?

> Hi all,
>
> following the discussion about the solder paste stencils i wonder
> if it is possible to dispense the solder paste with a cnc machine.
>
> In my opinion a stencil does not make much sense if you only have

> or maybe very few.
>
> Would if work to mount a syringe type dispenser to a cnc?
> I think it might be a big problem to ensure the paste bead is

> on the board and doesn't stick to the tip and is smeared all over

> place.
>
>
> Just wondering if it would be possible with no intention to build.
>
> ST

> Stefan,
>
> Yes. Not only possible, but easy.
>
> Ballendo

>> use a gerber app. I use Pentalogix Viewmate (free, google for
>> site). Use the CAM processor in Eagle to output gerber rs247x
>> files. You can import multiple gerbers into viewmate and combine
>> them to make a panel.
>
> Phil, does the drill size are imported ok ? For TT transfer.
>
> thx,
> Vasile
>

> use a gerber app. I use Pentalogix Viewmate (free, google for
> site). Use the CAM processor in Eagle to output gerber rs247x
> files. You can import multiple gerbers into viewmate and combine
> them to make a panel.

> because usualy is altering the scale factor...
>

>
> >> use a gerber app. I use Pentalogix Viewmate (free, google for
> >> site). Use the CAM processor in Eagle to output gerber rs247x
> >> files. You can import multiple gerbers into viewmate and combine
> >> them to make a panel.
> >
> > Phil, does the drill size are imported ok ? For TT transfer.
> >
> > thx,
> > Vasile
> >
>
>
> If you are using TT you most likely don't need the gerber files?
>
> Why don't you panelize with a picture editing software?
>

>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Phil wrote:
>
> > use a gerber app. I use Pentalogix Viewmate (free, google for
> > site). Use the CAM processor in Eagle to output gerber rs247x
> > files. You can import multiple gerbers into viewmate and combine
> > them to make a panel.
>
> Phil, does the drill size are imported ok ? For TT transfer.
>
> thx,
> Vasile

>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, Stefan Trethan wrote:
>
> >
> > >> use a gerber app. I use Pentalogix Viewmate (free, google for
> > >> site). Use the CAM processor in Eagle to output gerber rs247x
> > >> files. You can import multiple gerbers into viewmate and

> > >> them to make a panel.
> > >
> > > Phil, does the drill size are imported ok ? For TT transfer.
> > >
> > > thx,
> > > Vasile
> > >
> >
> >
> > If you are using TT you most likely don't need the gerber files?
> >
> > Why don't you panelize with a picture editing software?
> >
> because usualy is altering the scale factor...

>
> and when doing panels of double sided boards, you want very precise
> placement for both sides. plus, the pentalogix product is well
> designed for precisely this application and its free.
>
>

> I've not been able to figure out how to get the drill holes but its
> not really a problem for me. I just drill in the center of the pad.
>
> You can output the drill layer in eagle but its symbols, not actual
> holes. I've not really looked into how to get the holes, though so
> it might be possible.
>

>
>
> no, i get copper with no hydrogen too.
> I aim for a area ratio that starts to produce hydrogen and chlorine at the
> same time,
> and then use current slightly below that point.
> It is better if i get hydrogen before chlorine because that means the
> copper area
> is the absolute minimum. if i get clorine earlier then the copper could
> still be made
> smaller.

>
> Yesterday i let it run for several hours with some 200mA and at then end i
> got visible regeneration.
> I didn't want to run it overnight without supervision so i turned it off
> and pulled ou the copper.
> now i will go and switch it on again i think.
>
> The lid for the vertical tank seems to be set now, but i have still some
> work to do before i can
> activate it.
> It will hold 1 liter of etchant, and accept boards up to 35cm x 20cm which
> is more than i need.
> It is also about the size i can make a TT (A4).
> I'm stuck right now with creating the lid, it got more complicated since i
> aimed for electrolytic
> regeneration. Right now i think i will seperate the lid in 3 sections, the
> middle conaining
> the pcb clamp and the outer 2 containing the electrolysis electrodes. This
> way i can input/output
> boards without disturbing electrolysis and i can also completely remove
> the electrodes if i should
> once need the whole 35cm length. I will most likely make the copper
> electrode holding lid twice,
> one holding a wire, the other blank, because obviously the copper needs to
> b taken out
> if there is no current present.
>
>
> I would have one other question now - do you think the etchant penetrates
> the welding rods?

> I connected them by drilling a hole and inserting a wire. then i sealed it
> with silicone.
> If the etchant seeps through this is no good of course.

> Its not good idea to have cathode CD (current density) at level where
> hydrogen is almost being produced. I would operator at about half the CD
> of
> the CD needed to produced hydrogen. The ratio of grams of recovered
> copper
> per unit charge depends on the CD and solution agitation near cathode
> surface. You trying to maximize this ratio.
>
> Here is a copy of a document I wrote when doing experiments with alkaline
> ammonia sulfate electrolytic regeneration.
>
> http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/etching_eff.html
>
>

> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:15:00 -0000, ballendo <ballendo@y...> wrote:
>
> > Stefan,
> >
> > Yes. Not only possible, but easy.
> >
> > Ballendo
>
> details?
>
> ST

> Hi all,
>
> following the discussion about the solder paste stencils i wonder
> if it is possible to dispense the solder paste with a cnc machine.
>
> In my opinion a stencil does not make much sense if you only have

> or maybe very few.

> Of course, my question is where to get low cost solder paste ?
>
> Dave
>

> I looked into stencils and though about the use of a stainless
> stencil the size of a credit card or similar. then one could have
> one for 8pin SOIC, 28 pin SOIC and so on. Often there is room to do
> a few parts and the rest is by hand.
>
> Dave
>

>
> > Of course, my question is where to get low cost solder paste ?
> >
> > Dave
> >
>
> nowhere. i have to pay eur10/syringe.
>
>
> i wonder if the paste separates from the nozzle so uniformly that

> the exact
> same amount on each pad.
>
> ST

>
> > I looked into stencils and though about the use of a stainless
> > stencil the size of a credit card or similar. then one could have
> > one for 8pin SOIC, 28 pin SOIC and so on. Often there is room to

> > a few parts and the rest is by hand.
> >
> > Dave
> >
>
> how do you apply the paste into the openings of the stencil?
> some kind of squeegee action?
>
>
> ST

>
>
> This is one of those things you find out about machine control.
>
> with some practice, you find that by being 0.5mm from the pcb, and
> starting the paste to flow and presising the syringe 0.1mm, that some
> exact amount is dispensed.
>
> this will be repeated on every occurance.
>
> One thing that comes to mind is the surface adhesion. If the paste
> does not adhere to the surface, it will not stick and the next pad
> will get double.
>
> But, each of these things are things you can control.
>
> Dave
>
>

>
> >
> >
> > This is one of those things you find out about machine control.
> >
> > with some practice, you find that by being 0.5mm from the pcb, and
> > starting the paste to flow and presising the syringe 0.1mm, that

> > exact amount is dispensed.
> >
> > this will be repeated on every occurance.
> >
> > One thing that comes to mind is the surface adhesion. If the

> > does not adhere to the surface, it will not stick and the next pad
> > will get double.
> >
> > But, each of these things are things you can control.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
>
> You basically say whatever the machine does wrong, it does it wrong

> same way every time, right?
>
> What about the software, how do i get the file i need to feed the

> No point in building a expensive cnc machine and then it is

> get the right file.
>
> I reckon the "generating the file" thing would be even harder if

> thinks of pick and place?
>
>
> ST

>
> I think the software would be pretty easy if you can write software.
>
> TurboCNC is a very low cost package that handles g-code.
>
> If you call out a drill hole for every SMT pad, or wherever you want
> to dispense paste, then the g-code can use that as the basis for
> moving. You have full control over Z axis speed rate, or feed rate.
>
> so you can rapid to a point and then the driller would think it was
> going to drill, but your special code would tell it to dispense.
>
> I would do that in Excel only because I am do familiar with Excel and
> have no problem with G-code.
>
> Dave

>
> >
> >
> > This is one of those things you find out about machine control.
> >
> > with some practice, you find that by being 0.5mm from the pcb, and
> > starting the paste to flow and presising the syringe 0.1mm, that

> > exact amount is dispensed.
> >
> > this will be repeated on every occurance.
> >
> > One thing that comes to mind is the surface adhesion. If the

> > does not adhere to the surface, it will not stick and the next pad
> > will get double.
> >
> > But, each of these things are things you can control.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
>
> You basically say whatever the machine does wrong, it does it wrong

> same way every time, right?
>
> What about the software, how do i get the file i need to feed the

> No point in building a expensive cnc machine and then it is

> get the right file.
>
> I reckon the "generating the file" thing would be even harder if

> thinks of pick and place?
>
>
> ST

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> > What about the software, how do i get the file i need to feed the
> cnc?
> > No point in building a expensive cnc machine and then it is
> impossible to
> > get the right file.
> >
> > I reckon the "generating the file" thing would be even harder if
> one
> > thinks of pick and place?
> >
> >
> > ST
>

>
> What i wonder is not so much how to find the right position, but

> find the right amount.
> How can i influence the time the dispenser is on (or the mm the

> operated)?

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 11:07:19 -0000, ballendo <ballendo@...> wrote:

> Stefan,
>
> If your cnc machine was set up as Dave suggests, you'd use a couple
> of its "normal" features to make this easy:

> Hello,
>
> Most pcb layout software of decent quality will output drill files,
> which as just described, can be easily modified to become dispensing
> files. And there are other ways as well.

>
> And the same can be said for the picn and place aspects. Expensive
> ecad will have these sorts of things inherent, and less expensive
> types(like Eagle can use ULP's) usually have a mthod to create these
> types of files.
>
> Face it, what we're discussing is not brand new to the pcb fab world!

>
> Ballendo
>
> PS. I bet you've already started a reply which says, "But with SMD's
> you DON't drill holes..." Gotta think outside the box sometimes, but
> the capability is there, and easily obtained.

>
> Quite a lot of answering for something you "won't be doing" anyway<G>
>

> Hello Stefan,
>
> This is done by empirical testing/experimentation at first, using the
> canned cycle and/or macro params. Then it will be repeatable.
>
> I already explained the screw. With the air pressure syringe types,
> the timing can be controlled using G04, which is a dwell in
> milliseconds.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Ballendo
>
> P.S. I have never used an excel program to create a toolpath. Others
> have had great success doing so; I've just never found it necessary.
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "ballendo" <ballendo@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 7:07 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: solder paste - cnc dispenser


> Stefan,
>
> If your cnc machine was set up as Dave suggests, you'd use a couple
> of its "normal" features to make this easy:
>
> 1)Incremental motion, which is G91 (considers previous/starting point
> as zero each time)
>
> 2)Canned cycles for "drilling" G81 (this makes your cnc file just a
> set of locations, as each time the G81 is called, a series of moves--
> designed for drilling-- are made. We wouldn't be drilling, but with
> some creative use of the canned cycle parameters, we would achieve
> the desired motion--as Dave already described.
>
> If you add the ability to use Macros--which my cheap cnc machines DO
> have--then it gets even easier. A macro is just a set of instructions
> that YOU (or anyone) creates and holds "together" under one code,
> like M345.
>
> Now the dispensing can be done using either of these methods; you
> will just have more control if Macros can be created and used. Not
> all cnc machines have them...
>
> So you would set up the canned cycle drill params for different
> sized "dots"--same with macros--. The difference is that with macros
> you'd have a DIFFERENT macro for each line, dot or even entire SMD
> package that you want to "lay down" paste for. With the drill cycle
> (s), you'd have to change the parameters for each set of dots of a
> given size. Then do the next size, and so on...
>
> Dave left out one critical part, which is that the stepper driving
> the paste plunger needs to reverse a bit after each dot is placed.
> This keeps a "string" from hanging between dot placements. (Any one
> who's ever used a caulking gun knows what I'm talking about<G>) The
> drill cycle "retract" does this for us.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Ballendo
>
> PS. You will actually be using TWO drill cycles per dot. One for the
> paste syringe, and one for the z axis movement. With macros these two
> can be combined into ONE macro call. And the rest of the file, as
> written above, is just the xy coords of your dots. (The canned cycles
> are "persistant" until something else is called, so the desired
> action takes place at each defined XY location.) My machines will do
> this.
>
> PPS. For this "screw drive" method of dispensing to work well, you
> need a stiff syringe, and a SOLID mount for it. Because "flex" plays
> havoc with dot size, as the syringe pluger moves downward. At the
> top, the entire syringe tube can flex to absorb some of the downward
> movement without dispensing; so as you get lower the dot size can
> increase. Fortunately we have another couple "normal" cnc functions
> which we can use to deal with this, which are tool offsets, and tool
> wear offsets. Creative use of these will acount for the problem
> mentioned.
>
> And the "other" choice is to use a dispenser from (or modeled after)
> those industrial units sold by EFD, and others...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > This is one of those things you find out about machine control.
> > >
> > > with some practice, you find that by being 0.5mm from the pcb, and
> > > starting the paste to flow and presising the syringe 0.1mm, that
> some
> > > exact amount is dispensed.
> > >
> > > this will be repeated on every occurance.
> > >
> > > One thing that comes to mind is the surface adhesion. If the
> paste
> > > does not adhere to the surface, it will not stick and the next pad
> > > will get double.
> > >
> > > But, each of these things are things you can control.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> >
> > You basically say whatever the machine does wrong, it does it wrong
> the
> > same way every time, right?
> >
> > What about the software, how do i get the file i need to feed the
> cnc?
> > No point in building a expensive cnc machine and then it is
> impossible to
> > get the right file.
> >
> > I reckon the "generating the file" thing would be even harder if
> one
> > thinks of pick and place?
> >
> >
> > ST
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

> On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 11:21:52 -0000, ballendo <ballendo@y...> wrote:
>
> > Hello Stefan,
> >
> > This is done by empirical testing/experimentation at first, using

> > canned cycle and/or macro params. Then it will be repeatable.
> >
> > I already explained the screw. With the air pressure syringe

> > the timing can be controlled using G04, which is a dwell in
> > milliseconds.
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> >
> > Ballendo
> >
> > P.S. I have never used an excel program to create a toolpath.

> > have had great success doing so; I've just never found it

> >
>
> as in my other post, how do you insert these gerber commands?
> Do you edit the file all by hand or do you have a software where

> load the file?
>
> ST

>
>
> I use TurboCNC and in that they have a jump command, think of a goto
> in prgramming.
>
> I move to the X/Y location, then jump to the drilling routine.

> I'm not a software guy. I hate fiddling with software to get things

> I'd rater
> apply solder paste 10 hours by hand than trying to get software to

> for 10 hours.
>
> How long would you estimate it
> takes to get all the software going?
>
> How long would it take to get the
> drilling software running if my
> layout software produces excellon drill files?

> Is this possible with free software only?
>
> How long would it take to get the
> software running, and roughly adjusted
> for solder paste dispensing ?
> Assume a rx274 file as a output
> with different size "dots" for different
> paste amounts in the
> right places.

> I know this is nearly impossible
> to estimate but i need to know if it is
> like "oh yes, that would be simple,
> I know how I would solve that" or "that's
> tough, nobody
> has tried this before".
>
> Which software would i need for solder
> paste dispensing, is it possible
> with free software?
>
> If possible i would like to download
> software first, have a look at it
> etc. I don't want to build the machine
> and then the whole thing fails because of
> software problems.

> >
> >
> > I use TurboCNC and in that they have a jump command, think of a

> > in prgramming.
> >
> > I move to the X/Y location, then jump to the drilling routine.
>
> So you actually manually edit the code, by hand, on a command to

> basis?
>
> ST

> it's usually the CAM software not the hardware when it comes to

> think one would need 4 axis hardware though, with the forth being

> specialty drive for the dispenser, you could use G81 to position,

> a M code between each G81 entry, have the M call the 4th axis

> routine. You use the Z and R variables to control depth of plunge,

> height with G81.
> This could all be done easily and freely using Eagle lite, and

> (although I highly advise actually buying the software in the long

> you can actually have enough room to mill stuff, but the demo

> of room for canned cycles. , at least for the boards that fit in

> : )
>
> I really think this topic probably would be better suited to the

> but since the people involved with this subject frequent the same

> the topics blur the lines.
>
>
> JT

> thanks Dave.....
>
> i don't like the "couple of weeks" part,
> an the "fast programmer".

> i could of course edit the librarys so that there is a short line

> place
> where the paste has to go.

> Is there a really simple solution to modify these "z axis" action

> dispenser
> to "mill the paste above the pad"?
> I mean imagine you have a 2d drawing of a part you want to mill,

> you add the
> z axis? how do you tell how fast the dispenser goes down, and how

> moves?

>
> Maybe the "pump paste now" could be hardware engaged - whenever the

> is down fire up..
> one could use adjustable delays and "suck back" as soon as the

> raised.

>
> ST

> >
> >
> > I use TurboCNC and in that they have a jump command, think of a

> > in prgramming.
> >
> > I move to the X/Y location, then jump to the drilling routine.
>
> So you actually manually edit the code, by hand, on a command to

> basis?
>
> ST

>In Homebrew_PCBs, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> wrote:

>>drilling software running if my
>>layout software produces excellon drill files?
>
>For an fast programmer and a fixed file type and a fixed output
>code,this could be pretty fast. couple of days to a couple of weeks.

>>adjusted for solder paste dispensing ?

>To adjust the software, I think it would be a matter of a few
>boards, or a dozen pads.

>The key is to dispense the EXACT same amount from a new tube as from
>the middle and the end.

>>be simple, I know how I would solve that" or "that's tough, nobody
>>has tried this before".

>I see the simplicity... <Snip>then rate of movement would determine
>quantity of dispensing.

>My bottom line on the idea is to build the CNC driller. that
>machine will work now, for software that is available now. the
>paste dispenser will be an add-on for that by the time you are done
>building.

>Who knows, Ballendo may offer this as an option on his machines
>pretty soon !

> Stefan Trethan wrote:
> yea, yea, i got it... member there some time already...
> further discussion of solder paste cnc dispenser is at cnc-
> pcb_design
> ST

> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:15:41 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Drilling in the center works, but it is easier with the guiding hole for
> me.
>
> It looked on the images like there is a short with pad and track between
> pads?
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Not for me. THAT group is trying to build a machine... (Poorly named
> group, IMO)
>
> THIS group is about building PC BOARDS.
> USING machines, if doing so is possible/available/helpful.
>
> The same way we discuss plotter pens, laser prinintg, etchant types
> and details; we are now discussing solder paste application...
>
> Ballendo
>
>
>
> > Stefan Trethan wrote:
> > yea, yea, i got it... member there some time already...
> > further discussion of solder paste cnc dispenser is at cnc-
> > pcb_design
> > ST

> I must admit I felt a bit wierd when that group was created. I

> maybe I'd offended someone. I've never told anyone to take the
> drill/mill CNC thing off the list, and I'm the list owner and -only-
> moderator.
>
> Like with the Laser Tag thing- there are a million forums and
> Yahoogroups out there, one new being created every few months. And
> each one has a post a week and about 3 people on each one, and they
> all know each other from other Laser Tag lists.
>
> Steve
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...>

> > Hello,
> >
> > Not for me. THAT group is trying to build a machine... (Poorly

> > group, IMO)
> >
> > THIS group is about building PC BOARDS.
> > USING machines, if doing so is possible/available/helpful.
> >
> > The same way we discuss plotter pens, laser prinintg, etchant

> > and details; we are now discussing solder paste application...
> >
> > Ballendo
> >
> >
> >
> > > Stefan Trethan wrote:
> > > yea, yea, i got it... member there some time already...
> > > further discussion of solder paste cnc dispenser is at cnc-
> > > pcb_design
> > > ST

> I must admit I felt a bit wierd when that group was created. I

> maybe I'd offended someone. I've never told anyone to take the
> drill/mill CNC thing off the list, and I'm the list owner and -only-
> moderator.
>
> Like with the Laser Tag thing- there are a million forums and
> Yahoogroups out there, one new being created every few months. And
> each one has a post a week and about 3 people on each one, and they
> all know each other from other Laser Tag lists.
>
> Steve

> Hello,
>
> Not for me. THAT group is trying to build a machine... (Poorly

> group, IMO)
>
> THIS group is about building PC BOARDS.
> USING machines, if doing so is possible/available/helpful.
>
> The same way we discuss plotter pens, laser prinintg, etchant types
> and details; we are now discussing solder paste application...
>
> Ballendo

>
>
>
> > Stefan Trethan wrote:
> > yea, yea, i got it... member there some time already...
> > further discussion of solder paste cnc dispenser is at cnc-
> > pcb_design
> > ST

>In Homebrew_PCBs, "Dave Mucha" wrote:

> I was only agreeing with another member that the topic would fall
> more under the build a machine list. That member recognised that
> designing a paste machine and writing software was pretty far
> afield for this list.

> The thread was discussing
> - how to write the software
> - how to engineer the paste mechanism
> - how to write the G-code
>
> These are pretty far off how to make a pcb as you entered
> assembling boards and machine design.

>But for those who are both mechanically inclined and want to make a
>board, it is a good topic.

> Pic and place would be another topic and if this list gets a lot of
> play on that topic, I would bet yet another list gets created.

> > > Stefan Trethan wrote:
> > > yea, yea, i got it... member there some time already...
> > > further discussion of solder paste cnc dispenser is at cnc-
> > > pcb_design
> > > ST

----- Original Message -----
From: ballendo
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 1:45 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: solder paste - cnc dispenser


You're kidding right?

We can talk for DAYS! about CuCl regeneration (which I could give a
rat's @$$ about), but not about engineering a way to get folks more
productive in the "other" aspects of pcb creation?

We can talk of how to engineer a plotter into a cutter or a laser
printer into a toner transfer device, but not how to make a usable
paste dispenser inexpensively?

I think that the idea of "where" a certain topic might get "more
play" is without merit. I'm not here to get "more play". I'm here
because I value the opinions of the folks who are HERE. You just
posted that in the group YOU moderate, mention of a simple cheap
machine using drawer guides would be laughed off the list! The only
thing which seems to create "new" lists from old ones, is over
moderation of topics...

Thankfully, that is not the case here.

Ballendo

Snips, inserts below

Perhaps we need: Homebrew PCB's-etchants, Homebrew PCB's-drilling,
Homebrew PCB's-layout, Homebrew PCB's-phototools, Homebrew PCB's-TT,
etc.......... NO!

>In Homebrew_PCBs, "Dave Mucha" wrote:
<snip>
> I was only agreeing with another member that the topic would fall
> more under the build a machine list. That member recognised that
> designing a paste machine and writing software was pretty far
> afield for this list.

Reading your included snip of Stefan's reply below doesn't suggest
that at all. It simply says there is more info AT that site ABOUT
paste dispensing.

FWIW, A "general" cnc machine list has NO IDEA what's required FOR
pcb's. If you're gonna make a machine for pcb's, IMO you should talk
with the folks who are making them!

> The thread was discussing
> - how to write the software
> - how to engineer the paste mechanism
> - how to write the G-code
>
> These are pretty far off how to make a pcb as you entered
> assembling boards and machine design.

Dave, forgive me. But I think you've spent too long policing CCED.
Since when does Homebrew PCB's mean only the making of the board? or
put another way, since when does the "making" of the board stop
before putting components on it? I think it's pretty clear that the
most common member of homebrew'd pcb's is making pre-production
prototypes, personal projects, and other low volume "immediate" need
situations. With a FEW members who are in light production... For
these folks, having methods to COMPLETE the homebrew PCB is a good
thing...

>But for those who are both mechanically inclined and want to make a
>board, it is a good topic.

Funny thing is, the idea is to allow someone LESS mechanically
inclined to make (and complete) boards...

> Pic and place would be another topic and if this list gets a lot of
> play on that topic, I would bet yet another list gets created.

Only if Steve wants to thin out his group. Which he doesn't appear to
wish to do; based on his replies in this thread.

I can understand if I were promoting several thousand dollar
solutions aimed at board productions in the hundreds. I DO have those
too. But I'm not promoting them here, because they don't fit the
needs of this group. A DIY drill, and a DIY solder paste dispenser,
and a DIY pick and place DO...

> > > Stefan Trethan wrote:
> > > yea, yea, i got it... member there some time already...
> > > further discussion of solder paste cnc dispenser is at cnc-
> > > pcb_design
> > > ST




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> It contains short lines where the paste must go, that's it.
> This file does know nothing about how deep the dispenser has to be
> lowered, or anything.
> It is like a plotter file, just 2 dimensional.

> Please assume a two-and-a-half D Milling project for explanation,

> Assume one has a 2D gerber line-art and wants to mill it. how does

>
>
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
> ST

> You're kidding right?
>
> We can talk for DAYS! about CuCl regeneration (which I could give a
> rat's @$$ about), but not about engineering a way to get folks more
> productive in the "other" aspects of pcb creation?

> I think that the idea of "where" a certain topic might get "more
> play" is without merit.

> FWIW, A "general" cnc machine list has NO IDEA what's required FOR
> pcb's. If you're gonna make a machine for pcb's, IMO you should

> with the folks who are making them!

> since when does the "making" of the board stop
> before putting components on it?

> Funny thing is, the idea is to allow someone LESS mechanically
> inclined to make (and complete) boards...

> Read the home page of the list. What are you reading into the
> title ? 99.99% of all PCB's are made with chemicals. This is the
> RIGHT list for that.

> If you want machine design, you don't go to electical engineers. If
> you want to make a PCB you don't go to mechanical engineers and you
> don't go to chemical engineers to find out how to drill holes.

> > FWIW, A "general" cnc machine list has NO IDEA what's required FOR
> > pcb's. If you're gonna make a machine for pcb's, IMO you should
> > talk with the folks who are making them!

> I totally disagree. How many on your list know the chemical
> reactions of the stuff for making PCB's ? Wrong list for that. How
> many on here know the stress and tortional calculations for 3/4
> CRS ? You don't ask an EE for mechanical designs and you don't as
> ME's for Chemical properties and you don't ask a chemical engineer
> how to drill holes. (seems I already said that, but it is worth
> repeating.)

> > Funny thing is, the idea is to allow someone LESS mechanically
> > inclined to make (and complete) boards...

> I agree, but you seem to advocating that less mechanically inclined
> design your machines. This list is not 90% mechanical and 10%
> electronics. just the opposite.

> I think the number of posts on the topics on here reflect the
> background and experiance and direction of the list members. 90%
> want to know about or handle chemcicals.

> Look at any list, you go there to get answers or offer your help.
> What part of this list description has anything to do with mechancial
> machine design ?

>
> I still have not worked out the cnc paste despensing stuff and i

> the discussion
> going back there,

> > I think the number of posts on the topics on here reflect the
> > background and experiance and direction of the list members. 90%
> > want to know about or handle chemcicals.
>
> Some of us don't. I for one have absolutely *no* interest in

> etching, and plan to do it with CNC once I can get something put

> Is there a problem with that?

> > > I think the number of posts on the topics on here reflect the
> > > background and experiance and direction of the list members. 90%
> > > want to know about or handle chemcicals.
> >
> > Some of us don't. I for one have absolutely *no* interest in
> > chemical etching, and plan to do it with CNC once I can get something put
> > together.

> > Is there a problem with that?

> let's try to steer this back to more PCB related questions.
>
> There is a problem with chemical, getting rid of the fumes and
> chemicals.
>
> the bonus is you can do 100's of boards at the same time.

> The benifit of mechanical etching is no chemicals.
> the down side is the expensive cutters that wear out quickly.

> A dull cutter will raise a burr on the copper and dependong on your
> hold-down method, will or will not effect the rest of the board.

> It will however require intervetion to be able to solder SMT parts.

> The other down side is how long it takes to make a board. the
> mechanical engravers cut one section of a trace at a time so the
> entire time is longer than chemical etching.

> Another plus for the CNC is drilled holes.

> > The benifit of mechanical etching is no chemicals.
> > the down side is the expensive cutters that wear out quickly.
>
> I have the impression that this is more of a problem with some

> than others, is that the case?

>
> > A dull cutter will raise a burr on the copper and dependong on

> > hold-down method, will or will not effect the rest of the board.
>
> I haven't yet begun to explore the possibilities of various

> I can think of a few right off the top of my head, those being

> clamps, some kind of a T-slot table (more clamps), or maybe a

> holddown setup. What else is there?

>
> > Another plus for the CNC is drilled holes.
>
> Yes, that's a big plus in my opinion. I'd *much* rather have the

> that than have to do it myself...

> > > The benifit of mechanical etching is no chemicals.
> > > the down side is the expensive cutters that wear out quickly.
> >
> > I have the impression that this is more of a problem with some
> > board materials than others, is that the case?

> Yes, FR-4 is the most common and easiest to get. Seems no one knows
> were to get boards as the question on here rarely gets an answer.

> But the phenolic boards are much gentler on the cutters, but it does
> not really matter if you can't get the darn things.

> > > A dull cutter will raise a burr on the copper and dependong on
> > > your hold-down method, will or will not effect the rest of the board.

> > I haven't yet begun to explore the possibilities of various
> > holddown methods.
> >
> > I can think of a few right off the top of my head, those being
> > simple clamps, some kind of a T-slot table (more clamps), or maybe a
> > vacuum holddown setup. What else is there?

> Duct tape. No, really.

> I have a pair of pins in the table the board slips over them for
> alignment and from there the boards is held on the edges with duct
> tape.

> The drill does not lift the board and mechanical etching is held firm
> with the two pins.

> > > Another plus for the CNC is drilled holes.

> > Yes, that's a big plus in my opinion. I'd *much* rather have the
> > machine do that than have to do it myself...

> And THAT is why CNC-PCB_design was created !

> the non-technical, home brew drilling concept you can build from
> stuff laying around to spending $100.00-200.00 in parts.

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...>
> wrote:
> > I must admit I felt a bit wierd when that group was created. I
> thought
> > maybe I'd offended someone. I've never told anyone to take the
> > drill/mill CNC thing off the list, and I'm the list owner and -only-
> > moderator.

> No offense to this list, but this list is how to make circuit boards,
> not how to make machines, and not how to engineer equipment, select
> linear rails or drawer slides etc.
>
> It would be nice to have one be-all list, but this list is clearly
> stated as how to make boards.
>
> There are other CNC lists and other machine too lists, but the
> newbies I see on those are afraid of asking questions as often the
> discussion are so high level. if you ask about drawer slides on the
> CCED list, you will get laughed at and told 100 reasons why it will
> not work. of couse on the CNC-PCB list you can see pictures of those
> machines and the boards they have made.
>
> If there were not such a huge seperation between the topics, the list
> would not have been created.

> So if I don't mention something specifically, it does -not- mean

> it is not allowed.
>

> Read the home page of the list. <snip>

> here is a small snip of one of mine.
>
> X009200Y004950
> X010400Y002250
> X009400Y002250
> X008400Y002250
> X007400Y002250
> X006400Y002250
> X005400Y002250
> X004400Y002250
> X003400Y002250
> X003400Y007050
> X004400Y007050
> X005400Y007050
>
>
> Cartesian coordinates in X and Y that exactly line up to the drill
> holes.

>I haven't yet begun to explore the possibilities of various holddown
>method. I can think of a few right off the top of my head, those
>being simple clamps, some kind of a T-slot table (more clamps), or
>maybe a vacuum holddown setup. What else is there?

>Roy wrote of SMD's:
>That's someplace else I have no intention of going. That stuff
>does provide some benefit, to be sure, in terms of component
>density and especially for manufacturing in large quantities, but
>again, I don't see me getting into any of that sort of thing.

> Stefan,
>
> I appreciate your comments, and the posts prior to this. I've snipped
> them to get us back on track...
>
> Okay, there's more info in those "short lines" than you think. For
> instance they have location obviously, but also a layer, and a
> filetype. And a width.

>In Homebrew_PCBs, "Dave Mucha" wrote:
> And THAT is why CNC-PCB_design was created !
> the non-technical, home brew drilling concept you can build from
> stuff laying around to spending $100.00-200.00 in parts.

>In Homebrew_PCBs, "Dave Mucha" wrote:
> And THAT is why CNC-PCB_design was created !
>
> the non-technical, home brew drilling concept you can build from
> stuff laying around to spending $100.00-200.00 in parts.
>
> Dave

>> In Homebrew_PCBs, "Dave Mucha" wrote:
>> And THAT is why CNC-PCB_design was created !
>> the non-technical, home brew drilling concept you can build from
>> stuff laying around to spending $100.00-200.00 in parts.
>
> Hello,
>
> This comment (above) caused me to do a quick check of something since
> I am a member of the mentioned group...
>
> And sure enough, Dave Mucha has the blue star of list ownership!
>
> A WHOLE lot of recent posts now make more sense, IMO...
>
> Ballendo
>

> I think Ballendo has a little desire to promote his unit and cheap
> home-builts are part of his market, or competiton. And it looks

>
> I know I have had posts on his list deleted for not being on topic
> and they were really close to the topic, WAY closer than machine
> design on this list. If this was run under rules the way he runs
> his lists, a lot of posts would have been deleted. I think that is
> why I got my dander up a little.

> Personally, if someone makes a dispenser, I'll be really peeved...
> if they DON'T post pictures !!!

> >Roy wrote of SMD's:
> >That's someplace else I have no intention of going. That stuff
> >does provide some benefit, to be sure, in terms of component
> >density and especially for manufacturing in large quantities, but
> >again, I don't see me getting into any of that sort of thing.

> Common through hole parts are being discontinued with amazing
> regularity. Plan now your shift towards SMT and D or regret it
> later...

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...>
> wrote:
>
>>You're kidding right?
>>
>>We can talk for DAYS! about CuCl regeneration (which I could give a
>>rat's @$$ about), but not about engineering a way to get folks more
>>productive in the "other" aspects of pcb creation?
>
> This list does not cater to what you care about, it caters to the
> topic as listed on the home page.
>
> Read the home page of the list. What are you reading into the
> title ? 99.99% of all PCB's are made with chemicals. This is the
> RIGHT list for that.
>
>>I think that the idea of "where" a certain topic might get "more
>>play" is without merit.
>
> If you want machine design, you don't go to electical engineers. If
> you want to make a PCB you don't go to mechanical engineers and you
> don't go to chemical engineers to find out how to drill holes.

> I
> imagine pcb design would get tossed off your list PDQ. Why should
> all other lists but this one have a specific topic as stated on the
> home page? Common sense should tell you where to go to get the best
> response. Of course it starts where the idea starts. And if your
> list started getting into the chemicals for making PCB's would you
> want to discuss that or would you tell them to come here ? ie: go to
> where the experts are or people with similar interests.

>>FWIW, A "general" cnc machine list has NO IDEA what's required FOR
>>pcb's. If you're gonna make a machine for pcb's, IMO you should
>> talk with the folks who are making them!
>
> I totally disagree. How many on your list know the chemical
> reactions of the stuff for making PCB's ? Wrong list for that. How
> many on here know the stress and tortional calculations for 3/4
> CRS ? You don't ask an EE for mechanical designs and you don't as
> ME's for Chemical properties and you don't ask a chemical engineer
> how to drill holes. (seems I already said that, but it is worth
> repeating.)

>>since when does the "making" of the board stop
>>before putting components on it?
>
> <snip>
>
>>Funny thing is, the idea is to allow someone LESS mechanically
>>inclined to make (and complete) boards...
>
> I agree, but you seem to advocating that less mechanically inclined
> design your machines. This list is not 90% mechanical and 10%
> electronics. just the opposite.

> I think the number of posts on the topics on here reflect the
> background and experiance and direction of the list members. 90%
> want to know about or handle chemcicals.

> Look at any list, you go there to get answers or offer your help.
> What part of this list description has anything to do with mechancial
> machine design ?

> Here's a simpler way.
>
> Use search and replace in a word processor to put a G0 in front of
> each X. (Search for "X" and replace with "G0 X")
>
> Put the G81 canned drill cycle at the beginning:
>
> G81 Z-.1 F30 R .1 (go down to -.1 at 30 units/minute, come back up)
> (to .1 above board at rapid rate.)
>
> That's it. The g81 drilling cycle will repeat at each hole location
> in the list below.
>
> Ballendo
>
> P.S. You'd have your "safety block" (init commands) at the

> of the file, and your "clean up and get out commands" at the end.

> these would always be the same for a given board thickness and

> So with one search and replace, and three cut and pastes, you have
> converted an excellon file to a g code file. If you have different
> drill sizes, you'd add a search and replace to change the excellon
> toolchange to the Gcode toolchange.
>
> P.P.S. You won't have to do even this with my machines; as they
> understand the excellon file directly.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha"

> wrote:
> > here is a small snip of one of mine.
> >
> > X009200Y004950
> > X010400Y002250
> > X009400Y002250
> > X008400Y002250
> > X007400Y002250
> > X006400Y002250
> > X005400Y002250
> > X004400Y002250
> > X003400Y002250
> > X003400Y007050
> > X004400Y007050
> > X005400Y007050
> >
> >
> > Cartesian coordinates in X and Y that exactly line up to the

> > holes.

> Dave,
>
> Here's a copy of the FIRST line ON the home page:
>
> Making, etching, soldering printed circuit boards yourself.
>
> See that third word there...
>
> Next, The list OWNER has approved this thread. And posted as such
> already. Please respect what the LIST OWNER has said.

> > instance they have location obviously, but also a layer, and a
> > filetype. And a width.
>
>
> So you say:
>
> I have to program either a tool that converts gerber to "dispenser

> or i have to edit the g-code myself and add the macros.
> Second approach needs editing for each pcb you make.
>
> There is no (free) solution where i can simply open my 2D gerber

> then some already existing software adds the 3D information,

> edit
> parameters like depth and milling speed.

>
> As i have no cnc experience i might just not get the point.
> Currently it seems to me that the software would definitely take me

> to get
> right than the hardware takes to be built.
> I DO NOT LIKE that too much...

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...>
> wrote:
>
>>Dave,
>>
>>Here's a copy of the FIRST line ON the home page:
>>
>> Making, etching, soldering printed circuit boards yourself.
>>
>>See that third word there...
>>
>>Next, The list OWNER has approved this thread. And posted as such
>>already. Please respect what the LIST OWNER has said.
>
>
> The whole question arose when a member posted that this is off topic,
> and I agreed.
>
> Solder paste dispenser mechanical design is not even close.
> Mechanical etching is a legitimate and viable method of MAKING
> boards. Yes the list owner will allow it, but that does not mean
> the responses will be the best for the person wanting to build the
> unit.
>
> How about we agree that neither you nor I post on the solder paste or
> pic-and-place designs as we can see how the other members would
> answer this topic ? (for a week or so ? )
>
> I imagine it will get near zero play on this list.

> Yes, you are interested, and I am intereted, but this is not the
> mechanical design list for this topic. Neither by the depth of
> member knoledge and experiance, nor the stated purpose of this list.

> It IS a topic that would have dozens and dozens of professional
> responses on both your list and CCED. Probably even have sites to
> people who have done it and personal experiances from those who
> already worked out the bugs.
>
> I would make a screw plunger, that would need to be incremented as
> paste was diplaced from the syringe. the A axis location would need
> to be advanced incrementally. The next logical step is software and
> the next after that is troublshooting. I think you mentioned a
> solenoid or compressed air ? Neither of us have taken it to the
> final stage and worked out the bugs.

> To keep it on here will eventally become a dis-service to the person
> making the unit.
>
> And that, my friend, is why there are so many lists, and why both you
> and Steve have a couple dozen lists between you !

> Another note is that the G81 will repeat ever time an new X/Y line is
> read. so there is no need to jump to another for more drill
> instructions.

>
> I currently use a bunch of different feeds and speeds on my holes so
> have created a table of different actions so the jump works best for
> me.
>

>
> This is correct. I had mentioned that earlier on the thread. It
> would not be a horrbily difficult matter for a programmer to read the
> NCDrill file and/or the Gerbers and 'remember' the last amount of
> paste in the tube and then output a G-code file to make that all
> happen.
>
> I'm thinking we need to get a member who is fluent in programming to
> add that piece to the puzzle.

>
> But, you are correct that you would need to have parameters like
> paste volume per pad would need to be a manual setting, preferrably
> one that is a manual potentiomer so you can do it on the fly.

>
> depth can be a screw stop or a software setting, depending on the Z
> feed style. Some are leadscrew, some are solenoid.

> And you are correct on speed. there needs to be some hang time at
> the spot to allow the paste to dispense.

> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:54:54 -0000, ballendo <ballendo@y...> wrote:
>
> >> In Homebrew_PCBs, "Dave Mucha" wrote:
> >> And THAT is why CNC-PCB_design was created !
> >> the non-technical, home brew drilling concept you can build from
> >> stuff laying around to spending $100.00-200.00 in parts.
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > This comment (above) caused me to do a quick check of something

> > I am a member of the mentioned group...
> >
> > And sure enough, Dave Mucha has the blue star of list ownership!
> >
> > A WHOLE lot of recent posts now make more sense, IMO...
> >
> > Ballendo
> >


>
> Ya didn't know that ;-) Thought that was clear enough.....

> > I would make a screw plunger, that would need to be incremented

> > paste was diplaced from the syringe. the A axis location would

> > to be advanced incrementally. The next logical step is software

> > the next after that is troublshooting. I think you mentioned a
> > solenoid or compressed air ? Neither of us have taken it to the
> > final stage and worked out the bugs.
>
> I have 2 solenoids, leavers, and plungers.

> I happen to have designed the dispenser and pick-place machine i want.

> I would have found such discussions interesting here.

> But what fun is a pcb without components.

> Well, Russel,
>
> maybe we can all stop bickering and rather use the valuable answer time
> for generating useful posts.
>
> You say you have made such a machine, tell me more.
> Especially tell me what you do about your software, and
> how the pneuamtic plunger works. i think i have all components
> for a pneumatic system here (pump, pressure regulator, several solenoid
> valves).
> I think it has some potential advantages and would like to give it a try.
> I do not remember exactly how the air was coupled to the syringe, would it
> work
> to simply apply the air pressure to the already existing plunger-back and
> seal
> off the syringe housing?
>
> thanks

> The similar interests are to achieve the *end* result. I'd rather
> see CNC discussions here than boring old laser printer crap which
> i know is inconsistant between models and toner brands anyway.

> F30 is the feed rate to be 30% of the maximum speed of the axis.

> In Homebrew_PCBs, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> wrote:
> <snip>
>> F30 is the feed rate to be 30% of the maximum speed of the axis.
> <snip>
>
> Nope.
>
> F30 means feed the axis or axes at a vector velocity of 30 UNITS PER
> MINUTE. Not a percentage of max speed. The units are either mm or
> inches. Some machines may also allow cm's to be used.
>
> Any machine using percentage of max speed is not following the gerber
> or gcode "rules"...
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Ballendo

>>Stefan wrote
>Dave Mucha wrote:
>>There is no (free) solution where i can simply open my 2D gerber
>>file and then some already existing software adds the 3D
>>information, letting me edit parameters like depth and milling
>>speed.

>I'm thinking we need to get a member who is fluent in programming to
>add that piece to the puzzle.

>'remember' the last amount of paste in the tube and then output a G-
>code file to make that all happen.

> But, you are correct that you would need to have parameters like
> paste volume per pad would need to be a manual setting, preferrably
> one that is a manual potentiomer so you can do it on the fly.

> depth can be a screw stop or a software setting, depending on the Z
> feed style. Some are leadscrew, some are solenoid.

>In Homebrew_PCBs, Russell Shaw <rjshaw@n...> wrote:
> I happen to have designed the dispenser and pick-place
> machine i want. I would have found such discussions interesting
> here.

>The next logical step is software and the next after that is
>troublshooting. I think you mentioned a solenoid or compressed
>air ? Neither of us have taken it to the final stage and worked out
>the bugs.

>>Another note is that the G81 will repeat ever time an new X/Y line
>>is read. so there is no need to jump to another for more drill
>>instructions.
>
>I do not understand that part at all.
>There is always a hole drilled when you read a x/y command?
>You needn't call the cycle? seems strange...

>I think a few different cycles would be required for paste
>dispensing too.

>Might be good to have maybe 3 different "dot sizes". Might even get
>impractical to do much more because it will not work good below and
>above certain borders.

>Do you think it makes any sense at all to try to place "beads" or is
>it better to just make round "dots"? (and multiple if you need a
>line)

>In Homebrew_PCBs, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>
>> And you are correct on speed. there needs to be some hang time at
>> the spot to allow the paste to dispense.
>
>Yes, i do not think this is possible with a drill cycle at all, is
>it?

>but i would assume one can make a own "paste cycle", like a macro
>or what it is called (need to read up on that).

> called canned cycles:
>
> These were then kept in a CAN (to keep them away from
> the shop environment;paper, remember?)

> There are several different drill cycles. Drill with a dwell is one
> of them (G82). The dwell is set in milliseconds. For drilling this is
> used to be sure the drill makes complete revolution(s) at the bottom
> of a hole. We would use it for, as you guys are saying, "hang time".
>

> Especially tell me what you do about your software, and
> how the pneuamtic plunger works. i think i have all components
> for a pneumatic system here (pump, pressure regulator, several

> valves).
> I think it has some potential advantages and would like to give it

> I do not remember exactly how the air was coupled to the syringe,

> work
> to simply apply the air pressure to the already existing plunger-

> seal
> off the syringe housing?
>
> thanks
>
> ST

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:02:51 -0000, ballendo <ballendo@...> wrote:

> ST,
>
> read everything the manufacturers in a given field have in their
> literature. On their website... Trico and EFD are two of the "big
> players" in Dispensing.
>
> Reading patents at www.uspto.gov can be VERY enlightening...
>
> Search on "dispensing EFD"... (I think that's what I ended up using)
>
> Note that many patents are expired and can be used freely. Many
> others can be licensed. Some will just give you ideas...
>
> IMO, don't mess with copying an unexpired patent without permission!
> It is a FALLACY that you can USE a patented idea for your "own
> personal use" without selling it to anybody. While you might "get
> away" with this, it's NOT legal.
>
> Ballendo
>
> P.S. many mfrs. will list their patent numbers on their website. Even
> expired ones. To "scare" you away... Read 'em.

>In Homebrew_PCBs, Russell Shaw wrote:
>
> Head movement at max servo speed will be "quick" (60V servo drive
> ability), but i haven't got those numbers with me atm.

>
> But is it really necessary to use drill cycles?

>I mean if it proves to be any awkward to use why not simply write a
>short length of code along the lines of "move z down, activate
>syringe plunger, wait, stop plunger, move up" you get the point...

> I don't think that would be much harder, must be possible to put it
>in a "macro" and just call it every time you need?

>You know, the canned cycles where invented to make things easier, if
>they make things harder it might be better not to use the can but
>make a own piece of code and "can it".

> Ok i will do that..
>
> But i want to read up on general cnc programming, g-code and stuff.
> I could find some very specialized lists of command for certain

> but no
> "G-code for dummies - a online introduction to CNC and gerber

>
> ST

> On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 18:36:48 +1000, Russell Shaw <rjshaw@...>
> wrote:
>
> ...
>
> Ok, well, i see our design goals a a bit far apart.

> However, one thing it there that i want to ask.
> You say you don't use the plastic syringe, how do you fill any dispensing
> mechanism "air bubble free"?

> I did not consider buying paste in larger quantities or in jars mainly
> because i think it is impossible to fill a syringe (or similar) without
> adding air, which would in any case (maybe air pressure feed a bit less)
> influence the paste amount delivered, and of course totally mess things
> up when the air bubble actually reaches the tip.

>>In Homebrew_PCBs, Russell Shaw wrote:
>>
>>Head movement at max servo speed will be "quick" (60V servo drive
>>ability), but i haven't got those numbers with me atm.
>
> Russell, I'm interested in how you plan to feed the parts? And how
> you intend to orient them?

> Sounds like it'll be a nice machine. I've excerpted the part above
> because it relates to the machine Mariss Freimanis uses for
> assembling his Geckodrives. That machine is a 14K parts per hour
> PNP...
>
> I've been driving a fair bit lately, and was figuring out how fast it
> had to move to do that as I drove. Scary. Found out later it had
> three heads working simultaneously. STILL scary.<G>

> Ballendo
>
> P.S. lesseee, how many of my little hobby/small shop machines would
> it take for 14K parts per hour...<G> (Prob'ly still cheaper though!)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ballendo [mailto:ballendo@...]
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 2:31 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re:laser jet consistency and registration
>
>
> Hello,
>
> In a previous life I was a copier service tech. Prior to laser
> printers, but as most know now photocopiers use the same process.
>
> We used to have a heck of a time with page registration, and I know
> the truth of Russell's comments below having adjusted many optics
> sets to<wards> 1:1...
>
> So I'm wondering, Has anyone taken the time to see if he or she can
> get a good back to back registration on PAPER?
>
> Because if you can't get the sheet of paper to reliably go through
> twice accurately; isn't it kinda unlikely that the mods to allow a
> board to go through are gonna improve things?
>
> Next, IF it is possible and likely for the registration of two passes
> to line up with respect to the board edges: Has anyone held this up
> to a light and checked if all the holes line up all across the board?
>
> For a eurocard sized board?
>
> Thank you in advance,
>
> Ballendo
>
> P.S. I was really getting gung ho about direct etch resist
> printing-- even posted awhile back about the CD tray printer
> I saw at Fry's, and
> was talking to avecia about their resist and soldermask, when...
>
> The above questions popped into my head. For me, if ya can't
> do two- sided, it's a no-starter. SMD and SMT are not going
> away, and they
> require two-sided layouts more often than not (means always<G>)
>
> I truly LOVE the idea. And with a print head on a cnc machine the
> registration problems go away... For others to take their place<G>
>
> But if I'm gonna have to TT the second side anyways...
>
>
> In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Russell Shaw <rjshaw@n...> wrote:
> > The similar interests are to achieve the *end* result. I'd
> rather see
> > CNC discussions here than boring old laser printer crap
> which i know
> > is inconsistant between models and toner brands anyway.
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits
> for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com.
> Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.

>From: "ballendo" <ballendo@...>
>Subject: Re:laser jet consistency and registration
><snip>
>So I'm wondering, Has anyone taken the time to see if he or she can
>get a good back to back registration on PAPER?
>
>Because if you can't get the sheet of paper to reliably go through
>twice accurately; isn't it kinda unlikely that the mods to allow a
>board to go through are gonna improve things?
>
>Next, IF it is possible and likely for the registration of two passes
>to line up with respect to the board edges: Has anyone held this up
>to a light and checked if all the holes line up all across the board?
>
>

>(And no, i don't think a 150dpi cd printer would do)

> Ballendo,
> I have done this on an HP 7150. I have not tried with my epson

> Someone mentioned using a scanner chassis to act as the X axis,

> of sheet
> feeding. You could put an aim point or jig on the bottom to hold

> part e.g.: flush
> left for top, flush right for bottom. I know that most error I've

> has been from
> page feed, not print head repeatability. On the HP, I did get

> good alignment,
> but I have not looked at it lately. I'll try and print a 2 sided

> out tonight.
> Richard
>
> >From: "ballendo" <ballendo@y...>
> >Subject: Re:laser jet consistency and registration
> ><snip>
> >So I'm wondering, Has anyone taken the time to see if he or she

> >get a good back to back registration on PAPER?
> >
> >Because if you can't get the sheet of paper to reliably go through
> >twice accurately; isn't it kinda unlikely that the mods to allow a
> >board to go through are gonna improve things?
> >
> >Next, IF it is possible and likely for the registration of two

> >to line up with respect to the board edges: Has anyone held this

> >to a light and checked if all the holes line up all across the

> >
> >

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Lez" <lez.briddon@n...> wrote:
>
>
>
> >(And no, i don't think a 150dpi cd printer would do)
>
> What about an epson 900 with cd feeder tray?
>
> Is epsom ink resist? Could you put resist ink in a cartridge etc?
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.639 / Virus Database: 408 - Release Date: 22/03/2004

> Has anybody tried the epson durabrite ink ? It is claimed to me water
> and smudge resistant, so might be etch resistant too. I was looking
> for printers that support these ink cartridges, there are ones that
> are not too expensive, but I can't get one with a straight through
> path here. The ones that have straight through path doesn't support
> durabrite cartridges :-(
>
> -- Rajesh
>

> Look out for "cd/dvd printer conversion" you can find guides how to

> and
> you also can find out which printers have a straight path.

>
>> Look out for "cd/dvd printer conversion" you can find guides how to
> do it
>> and
>> you also can find out which printers have a straight path.
>
>
> CD printer ? I am guessing they have ink that would adhere to the
> plastic surface much like for copper ?
>
> Most inkjets only need to get the ink near paper and the paper sucks
> it in like a sponge.
>
> This may be a good cross over ink.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

> The real problem with laser printers and backup is that the paper
> physically changes size between printing the front and back side.

> is especially true in high-humidity areas (like here on the Wet

> :).
>
> I've measured 1/8" shrinkage. If you run the paper through once

> print something off in a corner), you get MUCH less front-back
> misregistration.
>
> I was a Principal Software Developer at Creo (they manufacture
> Computer-to-plate imagers for the printing industry), and one of the
> products I was involved with was called Digital Blueline. This is
> proofing software for doing backup proofs. We had the ability to

> the back page to optimize alignment with the front page, and once

> paper was dehumidified, backup was pretty good.
>
> So having said all that, I don't see any problem getting backup on a
> media which doesn't change size, espcially if you have the ability

> apply an external shift.
>
> Doing backup with an inkjet should be MUCH easier.
>
> --
> Dave Hylands
> Vancouver, BC, Canada
> http://www.DaveHylands.com/
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ballendo [mailto:ballendo@y...]
> > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 2:31 AM
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re:laser jet consistency and registration
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > In a previous life I was a copier service tech. Prior to laser
> > printers, but as most know now photocopiers use the same process.
> >
> > We used to have a heck of a time with page registration, and I

> > the truth of Russell's comments below having adjusted many optics
> > sets to<wards> 1:1...
> >
> > So I'm wondering, Has anyone taken the time to see if he or she

> > get a good back to back registration on PAPER?
> >
> > Because if you can't get the sheet of paper to reliably go

> > twice accurately; isn't it kinda unlikely that the mods to allow

> > board to go through are gonna improve things?
> >
> > Next, IF it is possible and likely for the registration of two

> > to line up with respect to the board edges: Has anyone held this

> > to a light and checked if all the holes line up all across the

> >
> > For a eurocard sized board?
> >
> > Thank you in advance,
> >
> > Ballendo
> >
> > P.S. I was really getting gung ho about direct etch resist
> > printing-- even posted awhile back about the CD tray printer
> > I saw at Fry's, and
> > was talking to avecia about their resist and soldermask, when...
> >
> > The above questions popped into my head. For me, if ya can't
> > do two- sided, it's a no-starter. SMD and SMT are not going
> > away, and they
> > require two-sided layouts more often than not (means always<G>)
> >
> > I truly LOVE the idea. And with a print head on a cnc machine the
> > registration problems go away... For others to take their place<G>
> >
> > But if I'm gonna have to TT the second side anyways...
> >
> >
> > In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Russell Shaw <rjshaw@n...>

> > > The similar interests are to achieve the *end* result. I'd
> > rather see
> > > CNC discussions here than boring old laser printer crap
> > which i know
> > > is inconsistant between models and toner brands anyway.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits
> > for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com.
> > Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
> http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/bGYolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links

> these are special "print on me" cds, coated similar to ohp

> I think maybe the wax printers can use uncoated...
>
> ST

>
> On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:13:41 -0000, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@y...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >> Look out for "cd/dvd printer conversion" you can find guides how

> > do it
> >> and
> >> you also can find out which printers have a straight path.
> >
> >
> > CD printer ? I am guessing they have ink that would adhere to the
> > plastic surface much like for copper ?
> >
> > Most inkjets only need to get the ink near paper and the paper

> > it in like a sponge.
> >
> > This may be a good cross over ink.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and

> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> BTW Stefan, what part of the world do you call home ? I know you are
> not in the US, but I was just curious.
>
> Dave
>
>