Homebrew_PCBs

> 1, where do I find a program to get this plotter to work with my
> computer?
>

> 2, if it works, can I use this to make my print boards by engraving
> or other mean of removing the unnecessary copper?
>

> 1, where do I find a program to get this plotter to work with my
> computer?
>

> Thank you Stephan, I do not want to do to much work on it.
>
> I have an HPlaserjet 5N printer. How can I put this to use?
> How do you use toner transfer?

> Thank you Stephan, I do not want to do to much work on it.
>
> I have an HPlaserjet 5N printer. How can I put this to use?
> How do you use toner transfer?
>
> Satchid
>
>

>
> Hi guys, talking about toner transfer and paper types:
> at work we use sticker label sheets. by mistake we have often printed
> on the waxy underside left when the labels are removed.
> Now, the toner on this only barely seems fused to the surface and can
> be easily scratch off with a finger...has anyone used this before??
> regards, PK
>

----- Original Message -----
From: onenastyviper
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 4:22 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] RE: Toner Transfer



Hi guys, talking about toner transfer and paper types:

at work we use sticker label sheets. by mistake we have often printed
on the waxy underside left when the labels are removed.
Now, the toner on this only barely seems fused to the surface and can
be easily scratch off with a finger...has anyone used this before??

regards, PK





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> this stuff is known as silicone release paper in the US. It is

>
> The toner really comes of easily, sometimes just with a wipe of the
> finger and the stuff is clean...possibly resuable???
> regards, PK

----- Original Message -----
From: yutates
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer


Hi, as a newbie i'm trying to learn the methods you are talking about.
Yeterday i tried toner transfer method in the univ's lab, by using HP
1100 LaserJet, suppiled with it's original HP toner. I printed the
pcb
design on a piece of green glossy paper that i got from one of the
old
magazines. Then i ironed the print out to the copper side, for more
than 10 minuteds, but nothing happened... :((

What could be wrong?

thanks,
utku ates






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> magzine papers are too many kinds.
> obviously, wrong paper with you.
> using photo paper is always correct.

> ... I now can be
> etching 30 minutes after image transfer ...

> On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 09:00:12 +0100, Jim Hutchinson <jhutch17@...>
> wrote:
>
>
>> ... I now can be
>> etching 30 minutes after image transfer ...
>>
>
>
> I think you should look at some other papers.
> I would be disappointed if i couldn't be etching smaller boards 30
> _seconds_ after image transfer, using plain water to soak.
> For component legend i just rip the paper off without any water (The toner
> sticks much better on epoxy than on copper).
>
> Thanks for sharing your discovery though.
>
> ST
>

>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
> I'm still learning ... if you have a good "rip-off" paper why not say
> the make and source so I can have the same results ... I have used some
> commercial image transfer paper and the results was not remarkable ...
> I have also pulled the paper off when it is still hot (about 30 seconds
> after transfer) ... this leaves half the toner on the paper and pin
> holes are a problem ... a very thin coated paper used in magazines I
> think would be near "rip-off" but I have not found any where I shop ...
> Jim KI6MZ

> On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:55:27 +0100, Jim Hutchinson <jhutch17@...>
> wrote:
>
>
>> I'm still learning ... if you have a good "rip-off" paper why not say
>> the make and source so I can have the same results ... I have used some
>> commercial image transfer paper and the results was not remarkable ...
>> I have also pulled the paper off when it is still hot (about 30 seconds
>> after transfer) ... this leaves half the toner on the paper and pin
>> holes are a problem ... a very thin coated paper used in magazines I
>> think would be near "rip-off" but I have not found any where I shop ...
>> Jim KI6MZ
>>
>
>
> I'm now using verbatim glossy photo paper A4 100 Sheets 210x297mm 150gsm
> for use in inkjet printers Reorder number 38996
> It can be seen here but i do not know the life expectancy of the link,
> click through to printer connsumeables, inkjet paper from the root if it
> has perished.
> <http://www.verbatim-europe.com/index/product_view.php?menu1=product&menu2=161&menu3=264&lang_id=1&article_id=264>
>
> This paper is relatively thick, but the glossy surface allows finer
> resolutions and no pinholes in large black areas. It is not extremely easy
> to remove, but with the right method it's quick. For copper transfers
> immerse the paper in water, scratching the back side helps. A few seconds
> is enough, but if you have other stuff to do leaving it a couple minutes
> makes things easier. Then start to roll the paper away with your thumb.
> you can either start in the center by wearing a hole through the paper by
> rubbing, or you can start at an edge. You should print a wide outline
> around the real PCB especially if you start rolling from an edge. Once you
> have taken off the first roll there will be wide flakes of paper left in
> some areas where the paper has split. If you have only moistened the paper
> a few seconds dunk it again to get everything wet. Roll the larger flakes
> away too. Now take a piece of flexible foam rubber. Firmly rub the foam
> rubber over the board. This will take away all smaller flakes of paper,
> and if you rub slightly more you can get a jet-black finish without
> residue for decorative transfers, using this paper. Now etch.
>
> I have gone into as much detail as i could, writing this took much longer
> than the actual process.
>
> ST
>

>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Jim Hutchinson <jhutch17@...> wrote:
>
--snip---
the common thread in the
> TT process is difficultly in cleaning the paper residue from the bare
> copper after soaking and prior to etching ... the traces I make are
> usually 0.015 or larger and spacing is 0.015 or larger and the residue
> removal has been the most difficult step ... recently I was talking
to a
> chemist friend about this problem and he suggested using some enzyme
> boosted washing powder (either automatic dishwasher powder or cloths
> washing powder) they have enzymes that convert oil to sugar, dirt to
> sugar and cellulose to sugar ... the clay coating on the paper I think
> is close to dirt and the paper fiber is cellulose ... I used Tide
> clothes washing powder (1 tsp to 1 and one half cup of water) at room
> temp ... after the initial soaking (in warm water) to remove the bulk
> paper and the rubbing of the residue with my thumb to remove as much of
> the residue as possible I now soak the PCB in the Tide solution and
> after about 5 minutes, almost all the residue in holes and between
> traces can be easily scrubbed off with a tooth brush ... an additional
> soak may be required for some real stubborn areas ... I now can be
> etching 30 minutes after image transfer ... I found the dish washing
> powder was too aggressive and would cause small pin holes if the soak
> was too long (it works but the timing in more critical ) I would
like to
> hear from someone that has tried this ... it really seems to work for
> me . the toner I use is the toner that comes with my HP1022 laser
> printer ... it softens at about 230 degrees F and melts at 310
degrees F
---snip---
47
> lb ... it is coated on both sides (I buy it at Frys Electronics) ... I
> have had good results with the TT process on small boards and with the
> enzyme soak to remove the residual paper/clay it is also a fast
process ...
> Jim KI6MZ
--snip---

>
> The problem I still have is fibers from the paper remaining in the
> space between the tracks. It amazes me that loose single fibers can
> act as a resist, leaving copper wisps on the board after ferric
> chloride etching. I usually either scan the board at 600 DPI, or go
> over it with a loupe after etching to check for shorts.

> Jim,
> I found the same problem with residue in the space between the traces
> as you did, using clay-coated inkjet paper and glossy photo inkjet
> paper. (Good tip on the laundry detergent; I'll have to try that, as
> glossy paper's fast pull-off is easier than rag-content paper's
> rub-off process). I switched to catalog paper, non-glossy, from the
> Harbor Freight mailed catalog, in fact. I have to tape it to regular
> printer paper to get it to travel through the machine unwrinkled.
> Some examples are in the Ted-KX4OM photo folder. I'm using a
> high-heat Brother HL-2040 (213 degrees C, 415.4 F) that does not do
> well with Press and Peel Blue, so I've done experimentation with
> various other methods. The last photo, of the simple flash AVR
> programmer, gives a good idea of the resolution achievable. Check out
> the text on that one.
>
> I start ironing at about 325 degrees F, with the temperature
> increasing, and iron with moderate pressure for about 2 minutes on an
> EAGLE Cad 3 x 4" board. I put a paper towel, the blue industrial
> kind, between the iron and the PC board/paper transfer medium. It
> seems to spread out the heat and offsets the steam holes on the iron
> problem. By the way, my thermometer is a digital one with an armored
> cable to the probe, which is designed for sticking into meat. I lay
> the probe tip and shaft under the iron to check the temperature. I
> bought it for $16 at Harry's Market here in the Atlanta area.
>

> The problem I still have is fibers from the paper remaining in the
> space between the tracks. It amazes me that loose single fibers can
> act as a resist, leaving copper wisps on the board after ferric
> chloride etching. I usually either scan the board at 600 DPI, or go
> over it with a loupe after etching to check for shorts.
>

> I have a better description of the P n P Blue issue and my current
> methods, along with board photos, on my site at www.kx4om.com.
>
> Good luck with your efforts with with your toner transfer efforts.
> It's well worth it.
>
> Ted KX4OM
>

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Jim Hutchinson <jhutch17@...> wrote:
>
> --snip---
> the common thread in the
>
>> TT process is difficultly in cleaning the paper residue from the bare
>> copper after soaking and prior to etching ... the traces I make are
>> usually 0.015 or larger and spacing is 0.015 or larger and the residue
>> removal has been the most difficult step ... recently I was talking
>>
> to a
>
>> chemist friend about this problem and he suggested using some enzyme
>> boosted washing powder (either automatic dishwasher powder or cloths
>> washing powder) they have enzymes that convert oil to sugar, dirt to
>> sugar and cellulose to sugar ... the clay coating on the paper I think
>> is close to dirt and the paper fiber is cellulose ... I used Tide
>> clothes washing powder (1 tsp to 1 and one half cup of water) at room
>> temp ... after the initial soaking (in warm water) to remove the bulk
>> paper and the rubbing of the residue with my thumb to remove as much of
>> the residue as possible I now soak the PCB in the Tide solution and
>> after about 5 minutes, almost all the residue in holes and between
>> traces can be easily scrubbed off with a tooth brush ... an additional
>> soak may be required for some real stubborn areas ... I now can be
>> etching 30 minutes after image transfer ... I found the dish washing
>> powder was too aggressive and would cause small pin holes if the soak
>> was too long (it works but the timing in more critical ) I would
>>
> like to
>
>> hear from someone that has tried this ... it really seems to work for
>> me . the toner I use is the toner that comes with my HP1022 laser
>> printer ... it softens at about 230 degrees F and melts at 310
>>
> degrees F
> ---snip---
> 47
>
>> lb ... it is coated on both sides (I buy it at Frys Electronics) ... I
>> have had good results with the TT process on small boards and with the
>> enzyme soak to remove the residual paper/clay it is also a fast
>>
> process ...
>
>> Jim KI6MZ
>>
> --snip---
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
> Ted Bruce KX4OM wrote:
> > Jim,
> > I found the same problem with residue in the space between the traces
> > as you did, using clay-coated inkjet paper and glossy photo inkjet
> > paper. (Good tip on the laundry detergent; I'll have to try that, as
> > glossy paper's fast pull-off is easier than rag-content paper's
> > rub-off process). I switched to catalog paper, non-glossy, from the
> > Harbor Freight mailed catalog, in fact. I have to tape it to regular
> > printer paper to get it to travel through the machine unwrinkled.

>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Jim Hutchinson <jhutch17@> wrote:
> >
> > Ted Bruce KX4OM wrote:
> > > Jim,
> > > I found the same problem with residue in the space between the

> > > as you did, using clay-coated inkjet paper and glossy photo inkjet
> > > paper. (Good tip on the laundry detergent; I'll have to try

> > > glossy paper's fast pull-off is easier than rag-content paper's
> > > rub-off process).
>
>

>
> Tough part now is the paper I used I had bought 2 years ago at

>
> I just bought a new paper from Office depot that I will try this
> weekend. It looks similar to the Office max paper and the prints to

>
> pgd
> (aka Bert)
>

>
> On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 22:55:27 +0100, Jim Hutchinson <jhutch17@...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm still learning ... if you have a good "rip-off" paper why not

> > the make and source so I can have the same results ... I have

> > commercial image transfer paper and the results was not

> > I have also pulled the paper off when it is still hot (about 30

> > after transfer) ... this leaves half the toner on the paper and

> > holes are a problem ... a very thin coated paper used in

> > think would be near "rip-off" but I have not found any where I

> > Jim KI6MZ
>
>
> I'm now using verbatim glossy photo paper A4 100 Sheets 210x297mm

> for use in inkjet printers Reorder number 38996
> It can be seen here but i do not know the life expectancy of the

> click through to printer connsumeables, inkjet paper from the root

> has perished.
> <http://www.verbatim-europe.com/index/product_view.php?

>
> This paper is relatively thick, but the glossy surface allows

> resolutions and no pinholes in large black areas. It is not

> to remove, but with the right method it's quick. For copper

> immerse the paper in water, scratching the back side helps. A few

> is enough, but if you have other stuff to do leaving it a couple

> makes things easier. Then start to roll the paper away with your

> you can either start in the center by wearing a hole through the

> rubbing, or you can start at an edge. You should print a wide

> around the real PCB especially if you start rolling from an edge.

> have taken off the first roll there will be wide flakes of paper

> some areas where the paper has split. If you have only moistened

> a few seconds dunk it again to get everything wet. Roll the larger

> away too. Now take a piece of flexible foam rubber. Firmly rub the

> rubber over the board. This will take away all smaller flakes of

> and if you rub slightly more you can get a jet-black finish

> residue for decorative transfers, using this paper. Now etch.
>
> I have gone into as much detail as i could, writing this took much

> than the actual process.
>
> ST
>

>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "pgdion1" <pgdion1@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Jim Hutchinson <jhutch17@>

> > >
> > > Ted Bruce KX4OM wrote:
> > > > Jim,
> > > > I found the same problem with residue in the space between the
> traces
> > > > as you did, using clay-coated inkjet paper and glossy photo inkjet
> > > > paper. (Good tip on the laundry detergent; I'll have to try
> that, as
> > > > glossy paper's fast pull-off is easier than rag-content paper's
> > > > rub-off process).
> >
> >
>
> >
> > Tough part now is the paper I used I had bought 2 years ago at
> Office Max as a cheap photo paper, kind of a magazine quality to the
> prints. Of course now they no longer sell it. It was called Office Max
> Premium Glossy Inkjet Paper, 180g / 7mil, and was product number
> 28916 Glossy
> >
> > I just bought a new paper from Office Depot. They call it Glossy

> I'll post results on Monday.
>
> Ok, the results of the Office Depot paper were not good.
>
> I did find a paper I like. Very similar to the Office Max stuff but a
> little thinner. It's by Hammermill (available from Sam's Club #

>
>

On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 6:00 PM, Ed Smith <w4eds@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I am making a small SMT 1"X3/4" board with 10 mil lines and spaces. Using a
> Samsung 1430 printer and HP PhotoGloss laser paper.
>
> The transfer looks great with no flow of toner. However, I can not get all
> of the paper removed from the 10 mil spaces. It is even more difficult , of
> course, to remove it from the traces.
>
> What to do ?? Different paper, more/less heat, more/less time, expecting
> too much ??
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed Smith Spencer, VA
> w4eds@... <w4eds%40yahoo.com>
>
> =================================================================
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 12:00 AM, Ed Smith <w4eds@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I am making a small SMT 1"X3/4" board with 10 mil lines and spaces. Using a
> Samsung 1430 printer and HP PhotoGloss laser paper.
>
> The transfer looks great with no flow of toner. However, I can not get all
> of the paper removed from the 10 mil spaces. It is even more difficult , of
> course, to remove it from the traces.
>
> What to do ?? Different paper, more/less heat, more/less time, expecting
> too much ??
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed Smith Spencer, VA
> w4eds@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> What to do ??  Different paper, more/less heat, more/less time,
> expecting too much ??

> Hi All,
>
> I am making a small SMT 1"X3/4" board with 10 mil lines and spaces.

>
> The transfer looks great with no flow of toner. However, I can not

>
> What to do ??  Different paper, more/less heat, more/less time,

>
> Thanks,
>
> Ed Smith  Spencer, VA
> w4eds@...
>

> I remove my paper while it is still hot. I haven't had anything stick
> and it etches well. I measured my traces as 10 mil.

--- On Tue, 10/14/08, John Coppens <john@...> wrote:
From: John Coppens <john@...>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner Transfer
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 12:14 PM











On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:00:40 -0000

"Brian" <blue_eagle74@ yahoo.com> wrote:



> I remove my paper while it is still hot. I haven't had anything stick

> and it etches well. I measured my traces as 10 mil.



Hi Brian.



I hadn't read that suggestion elsewhere. When you remove the paper

'freshly' ironed, doesn't half of the toner stick to the paper?



John



























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- On Tue, 10/14/08, John Coppens <john@jcoppens. com> wrote:
From: John Coppens <john@jcoppens. com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner Transfer
To: Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 12:14 PM

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:00:40 -0000

"Brian" <blue_eagle74@ yahoo.com> wrote:

> I remove my paper while it is still hot. I haven't had anything stick

> and it etches well. I measured my traces as 10 mil.

Hi Brian.

I hadn't read that suggestion elsewhere. When you remove the paper

'freshly' ironed, doesn't half of the toner stick to the paper?

John











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> gloves during the whole process and cleaned the board with fingernail
> polish remover with acatone.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <blue_eagle74@...> wrote:
>
> I searched for TT and got 1000's or returns, on this group and the
> web, so I thought I would ask here.
>
> I did a TT. Good results before. I have tried to peel the paper off
> when hot and it worked ok. Then I tried to let it cool and soak it in
> water then peel it off. Worked ok.
>
> My problem now is that when I soak it in water for 15 or so minutes I
> have parts of the traces not sticking to the board. I used rubber
> gloves during the whole process and cleaned the board with fingernail
> polish remover with acatone.
>
> Am I not heating it long enough (3 to 5 minutes with an iron) or not
> letting it soak long enough, tried cold and hot water?
>
> I am using kodak glossy paper.
>
> TT seams like a good way to go but I think I am doing something wrong.
>
> If anyone has a good proceedure I would like to try it.
>
> Brian
>

> I searched for TT and got 1000's or returns, on this group and the
> web, so I thought I would ask here.
>
> I did a TT. Good results before. I have tried to peel the paper off
> when hot and it worked ok. Then I tried to let it cool and soak it in
> water then peel it off. Worked ok.
>
> My problem now is that when I soak it in water for 15 or so minutes I
> have parts of the traces not sticking to the board. I used rubber
> gloves during the whole process and cleaned the board with fingernail
> polish remover with acatone.
>
> Am I not heating it long enough (3 to 5 minutes with an iron) or not
> letting it soak long enough, tried cold and hot water?
>
> I am using kodak glossy paper.
>
> TT seams like a good way to go but I think I am doing something wrong.
>
> If anyone has a good proceedure I would like to try it.
>
> Brian
>
>

> Did you preheat the copper clad??
> Very important.

> --- On Wed, 11/5/08, Brian <blue_eagle74@...> wrote:
> ...
> > My problem now is that when I soak it in water for 15 or so
> > minutes I
> > have parts of the traces not sticking to the board. I used

> a 'good' polish remover is a 'bad' chemical for cleaning. it is enough
> (and good) to only scrub the board with *abrasive* kitchen cleaner

--- On Wed, 11/5/08, Brian <blue_eagle74@...> wrote:
...
> My problem now is that when I soak it in water for 15 or so
> minutes I
> have parts of the traces not sticking to the board. I used
> rubber
> gloves during the whole process and cleaned the board with
> fingernail
> polish remover with acatone.
>
> Am I not heating it long enough (3 to 5 minutes with an
> iron) or not
> letting it soak long enough, tried cold and hot water?
>

a 'good' polish remover is a 'bad' chemical for cleaning.
it is enough (and good) to only scrub the board with *abrasive* kitchen cleaner with detergent. flush well and dry completely with paper.
place paper towel between back of paper and iron. this has to yellow slightly, else result is not guaranteed...
if you preheat the board it will be hard to manipulate and you risk smearing, but the iron has to be as hot as possible.
drop the hot board into a bowl with warm water to soak. some people use a slight detergent...

--- On Wed, 11/5/08, demolitron <ahardinger@...> wrote:
From: demolitron <ahardinger@...>
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner Transfer
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 5:00 AM











Well I am new to this group but I'll share what I've found with TT.



I have gotten very mixed results with TT until I turned into a clean

freak. I scrub my clad with scotch bright pads and a paste of commet

(Ajax) cleanser. Then I rinse it for a few minutes under hot water.

Then I soak the board in pure acetone, not fingernail polish remover,

with a paper towel to hold onto the liquid for a few minutes. After

that I wipe the board down with cotton pads until they remain clean

after wiping.



Second, I use INKJET transparency. It has two sides, one is rough

with an emulsion for holding the ink, and the other is smooth and

clean. This smooth side will hold the toner very well, but it

releases it nearly 100% once heated and pressed. There is no soaking,

no scrubbing, no waiting. Just cool the board down and peel it off.



Along with that I also pour some acetone into a container and set the

print out over it letting the acetone vapor soften the toner, prepare

it for transfer, and close any pinholes.



Finally, I wipe the board down with acetone just before I lay the

toner sheet down. I use a hot roll laminator to do my heat transfers.

Sorry, I haven't used an Iron so I don't know about its usage.



You can find the pure acetone at Home Depot in the paint department.

This stuff acts totally different from fingernail polish, plus it is

clean and doesn't leave any residue. Get some, you'll be surprised.

Oh, make sure you wear nitrile gloves when you use it... its nasty stuff.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "Brian" <blue_eagle74@ ...> wrote:

>

> I searched for TT and got 1000's or returns, on this group and the

> web, so I thought I would ask here.

>

> I did a TT. Good results before. I have tried to peel the paper off

> when hot and it worked ok. Then I tried to let it cool and soak it in

> water then peel it off. Worked ok.

>

> My problem now is that when I soak it in water for 15 or so minutes I

> have parts of the traces not sticking to the board. I used rubber

> gloves during the whole process and cleaned the board with fingernail

> polish remover with acatone.

>

> Am I not heating it long enough (3 to 5 minutes with an iron) or not

> letting it soak long enough, tried cold and hot water?

>

> I am using kodak glossy paper.

>

> TT seams like a good way to go but I think I am doing something wrong.

>

> If anyone has a good proceedure I would like to try it.

>

> Brian

>





























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> The majority of problems I have encountered with parts of traces not
> adhering are from oils or corrosion on the board, seldom a heat
> problem. Solutions - wash your hands before handling the board, (then
> don't pick your nose, or clean your ears ;), lightly sand board with
> 600 grit paper, do a double cleaning of board with alcohol. Alcohol
> works as well as acetone, and aint nearly as dangerous.
>
>
>
>

>
> Richad H.
>
> I agree with most of your observations. Perhaps using a laminator
> precludes the need to preheat the copper clad. I use a household iron,
> and find that preheating does contribute to success.
>
> Years ago, when I used Kodak KPR liquid resist, I learned that
> absolute cleanliness of the copper surface was the secret to
> getting a good resist coating using the "dip" method with the old
> Kepro dip tank.
>
> Cleanliness seems to be the key.
>
> If I could justify the cost of a laminator and the time
> to modify it, I'd certainly get one.
> But I do no more than eight or ten boards a year.
>
> I agree with your opinion regarding glossy paper. I have tried
> most of brands mentioned, and also find that the Hammermill
> paper is good and cheap. My last paper purchase was Hammermill
> "Office One" Business Gloss, 16302-0, 32 pound.
>
> Soaking in slightly warm water that contains a few drops
> of dish soap works fine. I just let the board soak until
> the paper lifts off. A bit of finger rubbing removes
> stubborn spots.
>
> Roland F. Harriston, PD
> ******************
>

> I spent ages (years) trying to get TT working. I'm sure lots of people
> have found that irons, etc do the job, but after about 5 years of
> frustration, another member here gave me a sure-fire method...
>
> After using it very successfully now (100% success), I found that the
> secrets (at least for me) were:
>
> 1. Use a laminator. I was probably way too impatient with the iron, or
> used the wrong heat, or whatever. I was pointed to a GBC Creative
> laminator, super cheap and needed no modifications. I run it through
> (on a slight angle, not square to the feed rollers) ten times, artwork
> attached to the PCB with real 3M Scotch Magic tape, which seems to
> survive the heat well and leave little or no residue if removed carefully.
>
> 2. Cheap, super glossy magazine paper. I tried a few papers, and from
> what I can see, you want a glossy paper, but one of low quality. You
> actually want it to fall apart when you soak it. We call it "toner
> transfer", but in my limited experience what happens is that the toner
> sticks to the board, and the thin layer of paper that the toner is
> attached to stays on the toner. The soaking process is about
> separating that thin layer from the rest of the sheet. When I'm done,
> my dry traces look grey, not black, because the top surface is a
> micro-thin layer of paper still attached to the toner.
>
> I use super-glossy cheap magazine pages (the inner pages, not the covers)
>
> Phil
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Roland F. Harriston"
>
> <rolohar@...> wrote:
> >
> > Richad H.
> >
> > I agree with most of your observations. Perhaps using a laminator
> > precludes the need to preheat the copper clad. I use a household iron,
> > and find that preheating does contribute to success.
> >
> > Years ago, when I used Kodak KPR liquid resist, I learned that
> > absolute cleanliness of the copper surface was the secret to
> > getting a good resist coating using the "dip" method with the old
> > Kepro dip tank.
> >
> > Cleanliness seems to be the key.
> >
> > If I could justify the cost of a laminator and the time
> > to modify it, I'd certainly get one.
> > But I do no more than eight or ten boards a year.
> >
> > I agree with your opinion regarding glossy paper. I have tried
> > most of brands mentioned, and also find that the Hammermill
> > paper is good and cheap. My last paper purchase was Hammermill
> > "Office One" Business Gloss, 16302-0, 32 pound.
> >
> > Soaking in slightly warm water that contains a few drops
> > of dish soap works fine. I just let the board soak until
> > the paper lifts off. A bit of finger rubbing removes
> > stubborn spots.
> >
> > Roland F. Harriston, PD
> > ******************
> >
>
>
>

> I spent ages (years) trying to get TT working. I'm sure lots of people
> have found that irons, etc do the job, but after about 5 years of
> frustration, another member here gave me a sure-fire method...
>
> After using it very successfully now (100% success), I found that the
> secrets (at least for me) were:
>
> 1. Use a laminator. I was probably way too impatient with the iron, or
> used the wrong heat, or whatever. I was pointed to a GBC Creative
> laminator, super cheap and needed no modifications. I run it through
> (on a slight angle, not square to the feed rollers) ten times, artwork
> attached to the PCB with real 3M Scotch Magic tape, which seems to
> survive the heat well and leave little or no residue if removed carefully.
>
>
>
>

> I did use an iron to begin with. I think the advantage of a laminator
> is the even pressure and temperature across the board. I also don't
> get increased trace widths, cause by too much pressure. With the iron
> I always had problems near the edge of the board. Think the heat
> dissipates out the edge of the board faster, or sumpthin. Perhaps
> preheating does resolve that.
>
>
>
>

>
> I searched for TT and got 1000's or returns, on this group and the
> web, so I thought I would ask here.
>
> I did a TT. Good results before. I have tried to peel the paper off
> when hot and it worked ok. Then I tried to let it cool and soak it in
> water then peel it off. Worked ok.
>
> My problem now is that when I soak it in water for 15 or so minutes I
> have parts of the traces not sticking to the board. I used rubber
> gloves during the whole process and cleaned the board with fingernail
> polish remover with acatone.
>
> Am I not heating it long enough (3 to 5 minutes with an iron) or not
> letting it soak long enough, tried cold and hot water?
>
> I am using kodak glossy paper.
>
> TT seams like a good way to go but I think I am doing something wrong.
>
> If anyone has a good proceedure I would like to try it.
>
> Brian
>

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "Brian" <blue_eagle74@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I searched for TT and got 1000's or returns, on this group and the
> > web, so I thought I would ask here.
> >
> > I did a TT. Good results before. I have tried to peel the paper off
> > when hot and it worked ok. Then I tried to let it cool and soak it in
> > water then peel it off. Worked ok.
> >
> > My problem now is that when I soak it in water for 15 or so minutes I
> > have parts of the traces not sticking to the board. I used rubber
> > gloves during the whole process and cleaned the board with fingernail
> > polish remover with acatone.
> >
> > Am I not heating it long enough (3 to 5 minutes with an iron) or not
> > letting it soak long enough, tried cold and hot water?
> >
> > I am using kodak glossy paper.
> >
> > TT seams like a good way to go but I think I am doing something wrong.
> >
> > If anyone has a good proceedure I would like to try it.
> >
> > Brian
> >
>
>
>
>

>
> You want to try 99% isoproply alcohol. This stuff if
> nearly pure, and contains nothing else.

On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>>
>> You want to try 99% isoproply alcohol. This stuff if
>> nearly pure, and contains nothing else.
>
> ok i'm not taking the %%%% here but would vodka work, unleaded petrol
> (gasoline) or 'carb cleaner' ??
>
> Buying iso is getting harder and more expensive were I am
>

> I don't like the smell of IPA and it does not seem to clean as well as
> either ethanol or acetone.

On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>> I don't like the smell of IPA and it does not seem to clean as well as
>> either ethanol or acetone.
>
>
> Does cellulose paint thinners work, that i can still buy.
>

> >
> > You want to try 99% isoproply alcohol. This stuff if
> > nearly pure, and contains nothing else.
>
> ok i'm not taking the %%%% here but would vodka work, unleaded petrol
> (gasoline) or 'carb cleaner' ??
>
> Buying iso is getting harder and more expensive were I am
>
>

On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 6:20 PM, Roland F. Harriston <rolohar@...> wrote:
> I don't know where you are, but in my neck of the woods (southern Arizona)
> 99% Iso is quite common (and very inexpensive.....like....less than 1
> dollar per 16 oz) at most super markets,
> and drug emporiums like CVS and Walgreens.
>
> Besides, who wants to breath in the toxic fumes from carb cleaner
> or petrol?? Not to mention the fire hazard and skin irritation these
> compounds present.
> And besides, they really stink up your work area.
>
> Roland F. Harriston, PD
>
>

>
> Generally IPA is more widely used in the US, while denatured ethanol
> is more widely used in europe.
>
> Now alcohol won't dissolve toner, that's another reason why i use
> acetone for board cleaning, i only need one type of solvent.
>
> ST

On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 5:16 AM, Brian <blue_eagle74@...> wrote:

> I had some bad traces on a board I did TT on and nail polish remover
> normally worked, I use aolchol to clean before etching without
> removing toner. but I bought some 100% acetone and WOW it came right
> off with no scrubing. It smells a little but not too bad. I am doing
> all this in my master bath so smells are a consern.
>
> So far from what I have seen here is, I need to clean my boards
> better and use alot more heat and for a longer time. Also I think the
> board bends with heat so using the tip of the iron, since I dont have
> a laminator, would work.
>
> the only problems I have had is one or two traces broken and one or
> two pads missing. I would like to say this is due to dirty boards. I
> have no problem with the etching.
>
> Thank everybody for their inputs.
>
> Brian

>
> Phil
> Would the laminator you mentioned be the GBC Creative "Blue"
> *Part Number:* 1712730R
>
>
> This is a very inexpensive machine, to say the least.
> And you say that you did no modifications?
> I generally use 1/16", 2 oz copper clad, two sided.
> Will it work with material this thick?
>
> Thanks for the information.
>
> Roland F. Harriston, PD
> *********************
>
> phildimond wrote:
>
> > I spent ages (years) trying to get TT working. I'm sure lots of people
> > have found that irons, etc do the job, but after about 5 years of
> > frustration, another member here gave me a sure-fire method...
> >
> > After using it very successfully now (100% success), I found that the
> > secrets (at least for me) were:
> >
> > 1. Use a laminator. I was probably way too impatient with the iron, or
> > used the wrong heat, or whatever. I was pointed to a GBC Creative
> > laminator, super cheap and needed no modifications. I run it through
> > (on a slight angle, not square to the feed rollers) ten times, artwork
> > attached to the PCB with real 3M Scotch Magic tape, which seems to
> > survive the heat well and leave little or no residue if removed

> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

> Sorry for the late response (travelling). My laminator is a 1712741
> but I'll bet the differences are regional (possibly just the
> compliance label!). No mods of any kind. And yes, I use standard 1.6mm
> FR4 SS % DS plated boards (that's about your 1/16").. The trick is to
> feed the board on a slight angle (like 15 degrees) so it grabs one
> corner first - if you present the rollers with a whole edge at once it
> will jam.
>
> I got all this from the list - they're not my ideas at all. And it
> works great!
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Roland F. Harriston"
> <rolohar@...> wrote:
> >
> > Phil
> > Would the laminator you mentioned be the GBC Creative "Blue"
> > *Part Number:* 1712730R
> >
> >
> > This is a very inexpensive machine, to say the least.
> > And you say that you did no modifications?
> > I generally use 1/16", 2 oz copper clad, two sided.
> > Will it work with material this thick?
> >
> > Thanks for the information.
> >
> > Roland F. Harriston, PD
> > *********************
> >
> > phildimond wrote:
> >
> > > I spent ages (years) trying to get TT working. I'm sure lots of people
> > > have found that irons, etc do the job, but after about 5 years of
> > > frustration, another member here gave me a sure-fire method...
> > >
> > > After using it very successfully now (100% success), I found that the
> > > secrets (at least for me) were:
> > >
> > > 1. Use a laminator. I was probably way too impatient with the iron, or
> > > used the wrong heat, or whatever. I was pointed to a GBC Creative
> > > laminator, super cheap and needed no modifications. I run it through
> > > (on a slight angle, not square to the feed rollers) ten times, artwork
> > > attached to the PCB with real 3M Scotch Magic tape, which seems to
> > > survive the heat well and leave little or no residue if removed
> carefully.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>

>
> Those that use acetone, if you have an ignition source nearby, such

>
> RD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <blue_eagle74@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "RICHARD HEILIGER"
> <rdheiliger@> wrote:
> >
> > Those that use acetone, if you have an ignition source nearby, such
> as a gas water heater, stove pilot, furnace, that a pretty serious
> flash fire can occur. I never use such cleaners in the house, I like my
> house.
> >
> > RD
> I use small quantities, cotton ball size, and keep the lid on the
> container. Not saying that it will not catch fire but pleanty of
> ventlation helps. I use it in my master bath with the exaust fan on. I
> dont have alot of room so I have to do what I can.
>
> brian
>

> While I believe is fire safety, let's not get overly carried away.
>
> Nail polish remover is acetone. If bimbos can use it safely, I am sure we

>

>
>
>I tried out a GBC Creative Laminator for the first time. It worked
>good for one board and then broke down. I need a good source for a
>better version that is not cheep but also not expensive. I use your
>paper idea from another person that is on E-Bay A4
>type and Green TRF Foil to protect the traces. Any help would be appreciated.
>Kevin

>

>
>
>
>I've been using a GBC creative for quite a while now, and I've modded it
>for temperature control too. Maybe you just got a bad one?

 

Thanks, but I'm not the person having problems, I commented on the
fact that I did not have any issues with a modified GBC Docuseal 95P.
He might have bought a laminator that did have hardware to deal with
the PCB thickness, so it jammed and burned out.

You have an interesting setup. I want to do a project later in summer
where I will have temperature control to an infrared oven by Black
and Decker. It will be overkill as I will be using an ARM F4 CPU
board to read temperatures from a K thermocouple and control the oven
heater along a programmed temperature profile. Way too much CPU power
but I can buy it for less that $11 and it's Arduino compatible, good
for buying cheap accessory boards. It's the ST Nucleo STM32F401;
<
http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/mmc/FM141/SC1169/SS1577/LN1810?icmp=stm32f401line_pron_nb-dynamic_jan2014
>

Perhaps after that project I will have the opportunity to do a
temperature controller for the GBC laminator, it would be nice to be
able to vary the temperature. Since the laminator uses a stepper
motor to move the item to be laminated it would be nice to also have
speed control of the lamination process.

We live in an interesting age, too many toys and not enough time.

At 12:25 PM 3/24/2014, you wrote:
>
>
>
>I've been using a GBC creative for quite a while now, and I've modded it
>for temperature control too. Maybe you just got a bad one?

--
Cecil - k5nwa
< http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/ > < http://www.softrockradio.org/ >

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

>
>
>Hi Cecil,
>Could you explain your comment that it is Arduino compatible please
>as I have a project that I might be able to use these on.
>Regards, Hamilton
>
>
>
>
>On 24/03/2014 17:50, Cecil Bayona wrote:
>>
>>
>>Thanks, but I'm not the person having problems, I commented on the
>>fact that I did not have any issues with a modified GBC Docuseal 95P.
>>He might have bought a laminator that did have hardware to deal with
>>the PCB thickness, so it jammed and burned out.
>>
>>You have an interesting setup. I want to do a project later in summer
>>where I will have temperature control to an infrared oven by Black
>>and Decker. It will be overkill as I will be using an ARM F4 CPU
>>board to read temperatures from a K thermocouple and control the oven
>>heater along a programmed temperature profile. Way too much CPU power
>>but I can buy it for less that $11 and it's Arduino compatible, good
>>for buying cheap accessory boards. It's the ST Nucleo STM32F401;
>><
>><http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/mmc/FM141/SC1169/SS1577/LN1810?icmp=stm32f401line_pron_nb-dynamic_jan2014>http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/mmc/FM141/SC1169/SS1577/LN1810?icmp=stm32f401line_pron_nb-dynamic_jan2014
>>
>> >
>>
>>Perhaps after that project I will have the opportunity to do a
>>temperature controller for the GBC laminator, it would be nice to be
>>able to vary the temperature. Since the laminator uses a stepper
>>motor to move the item to be laminated it would be nice to also have
>>speed control of the lamination process.
>>
>>We live in an interesting age, too many toys and not enough time.
>>
>>At 12:25 PM 3/24/2014, you wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >I've been using a GBC creative for quite a while now, and I've modded it
>> >for temperature control too. Maybe you just got a bad one?
>>
>>--
>>Cecil - k5nwa
>>< http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/ > < http://www.softrockradio.org/ >
>>
>>Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

 

It has a set of Arduino compatible sockets where you can plug in an
Arduino Peripheral board, there is also an Arduino development
software package available for it. I will not be using the Arduino
software but instead use software I'm comfortable with. I have my own
C, Pascal, and FORTH compilers for ARM.

You need to read the information on the ST site as it explains it in
detail. The price is right, it's less that $11 for an ARM F4
development board with 512K of Flash and Arduino compatibility, not
bad at all. I will be buying a bunch of them as soon as I can get some money.

At 01:10 PM 3/24/2014, you wrote:
>
>
>Hi Cecil,
>Could you explain your comment that it is Arduino compatible please
>as I have a project that I might be able to use these on.
>Regards, Hamilton
>
>
>
>
>On 24/03/2014 17:50, Cecil Bayona wrote:
>>
>>
>>Thanks, but I'm not the person having problems, I commented on the
>>fact that I did not have any issues with a modified GBC Docuseal 95P.
>>He might have bought a laminator that did have hardware to deal with
>>the PCB thickness, so it jammed and burned out.
>>
>>You have an interesting setup. I want to do a project later in summer
>>where I will have temperature control to an infrared oven by Black
>>and Decker. It will be overkill as I will be using an ARM F4 CPU
>>board to read temperatures from a K thermocouple and control the oven
>>heater along a programmed temperature profile. Way too much CPU power
>>but I can buy it for less that $11 and it's Arduino compatible, good
>>for buying cheap accessory boards. It's the ST Nucleo STM32F401;
>><
>><http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/mmc/FM141/SC1169/SS1577/LN1810?icmp=stm32f401line_pron_nb-dynamic_jan2014>http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/mmc/FM141/SC1169/SS1577/LN1810?icmp=stm32f401line_pron_nb-dynamic_jan2014
>>
>> >
>>
>>Perhaps after that project I will have the opportunity to do a
>>temperature controller for the GBC laminator, it would be nice to be
>>able to vary the temperature. Since the laminator uses a stepper
>>motor to move the item to be laminated it would be nice to also have
>>speed control of the lamination process.
>>
>>We live in an interesting age, too many toys and not enough time.
>>
>>At 12:25 PM 3/24/2014, you wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >I've been using a GBC creative for quite a while now, and I've modded it
>> >for temperature control too. Maybe you just got a bad one?
>>
>>--
>>Cecil - k5nwa
>>< http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/ > < http://www.softrockradio.org/ >
>>
>>Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

--
Cecil - k5nwa
< http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/ > < http://www.softrockradio.org/ >

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

>

>
>
>Where can I go to read how to modify both GBC Lams. I had a Creative
>an it failed? Burned up gear when it jamed. Best Kevin

>

>
>
>Cecil -
>
>I have a GBC Docuseal 95P. Can you provide or direct me to
>instructions for modding it for PCB use. Thanks much for your post and time!!
>

>
>
>Cecil - Thanks kindly. Tried to google this but did not find this doc.
>
>
>On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 10:38 PM, Cecil Bayona
><<mailto:cbayona@...>cbayona@...> wrote:
>
>
>I don't have the directions I used about 10 years ago to make the
>modifications but a search on the web turned up this document;
>
><
><http://www.pcbfx.com/main_site/pages/tech_support/instructions/Laminator_Modifications/95P_H-200/H-200_mod.pdf>http://www.pcbfx.com/main_site/pages/tech_support/instructions/Laminator_Modifications/95P_H-200/H-200_mod.pdf
>
> >
>
>At 11:57 AM 3/25/2014, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >Cecil -
> >
> >I have a GBC Docuseal 95P. Can you provide or direct me to
> >instructions for modding it for PCB use. Thanks much for your post
> and time!!
> >
>
>--
>Cecil - k5nwa
>< <http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/>http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/ >
>< http://www.softrockradio.org/ >
>
>Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

>

>
>
>If any one needs the mod for the creative lam. it can be found on
>web site <http://www.FoxyTronics.com>www.FoxyTronics.com. It is
>replaceing two thermostats and one thermal fuse
>Digi Key & Mouser parts. That is what I missed in my first attempt
>in this subject. Kevin

On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 2:50 PM, Cecil Bayona <cbayona@...> wrote:

I want to do a project later in summer
where I will have temperature control to an infrared oven by Black
and Decker. It will be overkill as I will be using an ARM F4 CPU
board to read temperatures from a K thermocouple and control the oven
heater along a programmed temperature profile. Way too much CPU power
but I can buy it for less that $11 and it's Arduino compatible, good
for buying cheap accessory boards. It's the ST Nucleo STM32F401;
<
http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/mmc/FM141/SC1169/SS1577/LN1810?icmp=stm32f401line_pron_nb-dynamic_jan2014
>

Hi Cecil,

I´d be interested in such board, but by looking at the link above, I only see references to a certain ST CPU, nothing about a ready-to-use Arduino-compatible board featuring such CPU. Are you sure that´s the link you intended?. Or is there a link showing the actuall board with Arduino-compatible socket featuring such CPU?. Thanks in advance.

Oh, never mind, I´ve been able to find it by Googling a bit. Here´s the link for anyone interested.
http://hackaday.com/2014/02/18/stm32-nucleo-the-mbed-enabled-arduino-compatable-board/

And thanks for the heads-up with regards to this board.

FC
--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
- George Orwell