Yahoo Groups archive
Thread
2016-12-29 by kbyrne10@...
I own a TL902 Thermal Laminator By Scotch and viewed a different GBC post of a repair parts manual and need to know if any one can assist me in locating a parts type manual for mine so I may try to increase the heat of it up to 340 degrees. I have no idea what the heat is now as my manual and box does not state that only two settings available. One 3 mil second one 5 mil
with 5 mil I assume is hotter.
2016-12-29 by Rob
If you are going to play in this ball game you need a ball and a bat and a glove. You need an accurate CONTACT measument of temperature...thermometer. I suggest this one... $11 http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/lam1.jpg OR lots of the $20 digital multimeters come with a thermocouple thermometer: http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/royalmods2.jpg So start gathering the tools...... No matter what mod you do to a laminator ...you will need to measure if it works or OVERworks..... like my first mod melting my nylon gear because I let it overshoot to 470 degrees. I found that infrared thermometers could not pick pinpoint temperature readings and worse.... reflected off lighter and mirror surfaces and gave very wild readings.
On 12/29/2016 04:45 AM, kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > I own a TL902 Thermal Laminator By Scotch and viewed a different GBC > post of a repair parts manual and need to know if any one can assist > me in locating a parts type manual for mine so I may try to increase > the heat of it up to 340 degrees. I have no idea what the heat is now > as my manual and box does not state that only two settings available. > One 3 mil second one 5 mil > > with 5 mil I assume is hotter. > > _
2016-12-29 by Kevin Byrne
2016-12-29 by Kevin Byrne
2016-12-29 by Harvey Altstadter
Kevin, Here is a link to a site that explains the difference between the thermocouple types: https://www.instrumart.com/MoreAboutCategory?CategoryID=742&gclid=Cj0KEQiAhZPDBRCz642XqYOCpb8BEiQANUcwTyWZq5RBUZO0rrRfC-M4AGxYj7g7muRGW_8__DDxp9kaAh1q8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds Operationally, the type K covers a wider temperature rance, but for the laminator project, the temperatures are nowhere near the limits for either type. The thermocouple type has to match the type required by the instrument you are using. The thermocouples are available with several different structures. In my case, I use a bead type that allows me to touch the rollers without conducting away significant heat. I can then get a reading with the case closed, giving me the most accurate picture of what happens in use. E-bay has the thermocouple and the instruments at very good prices. If you are going to use the bead type, order a few, because they are a bit fragile. Harvey On 12/29/2016 10:10 AM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
> Another question If I may. I have a Digi-Sense Digital Thermometer > Type J Thermometer. What if any is the difference between the two Type > K and Type J probes > or is it internal? >
2016-12-29 by keith printy
It is just the materials used in the thermocouple and the output for whatever temperature you are reading.i think the k type can withstand higher temperatures but a j is good for at least 500 degrees
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 12:11 PM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Temp upgrades of lam's Another question If I may. I have a Digi-Sense Digital Thermometer Type J Thermometer. What if any is the difference between the two Type K and Type J probes or is it internal?
2016-12-29 by keith printy
I use infra red at work.if you want to read the temperature of a pipe accurately you have to wrap black tape around it. in a laminator that won’t work! From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2016 11:46 AM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Temp upgrades of lam's Got the message loud and clear as all that I have is infrared. Off to E_Bay to buy meter. Best Kevin
2016-12-29 by Kevin Byrne
2016-12-30 by AncelB
Non contact passive infrared rules... Get one of these... https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9570
2016-12-30 by Rob
Where do you mount this device without destroying it and melting solder on the supporting chips in the toner work PCB heating path? How far do you mount it from the desired location where you are pinpointing temperature measurment? While I would agree that a Non contact passive infrared rules.......... I would like to some day compare the accuracy of the $20 passive infrared with the K type thermocouple and a simple thermistor. Noting that my ROYAL laminator heater control was done by a contact thermistor clamped to the aluminum heat shield behind a roller heater. When I was looking into thermocouple circuits and supporting chips it looked like about $15 gets that done and 5 cents buys a thermistor.... or maybe a dollar if it has wires. New Reprap NTC 3950 Thermistor 100K with 1 Meter wire for 3D Printer TSCA
On 12/30/2016 09:02 AM, AncelB mosaicmerc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > Non contact passive infrared rules... > Get one of these... > https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9570 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >
2016-12-30 by Harvey Altstadter
Ancel, In the Harbor Freight laminator, the rollers are almost completely surrounded by an aluminum structure that contains the heaters, and radiates the heat to the rollers. I have two non contact IR thermometers, one with a 1:8 ratio, and one with a 1:1 ratio. even the 1:1 unit has too wide a field to read the roller temperature through the narrow slots on the structure. My contact method shows that the structure is about 20�C hotter than the rollers. So, while the non contact method rules, it is not a general solution. Harvey
On 12/30/2016 7:02 AM, AncelB mosaicmerc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > Non contact passive infrared rules... > Get one of these... > https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9570 > >
2016-12-30 by Harvey Altstadter
Rob, The Passive IR gun type thermometer is only used for making initial measurements, not for a feedback type control system. The PIR thermometers have a distance to spot ratio. The Sparkfun unit mentioned previously has a ratio of 12:1, meaning that at a distance of 12 inches, the detector is reading the temperature in a 1 inch circle. The thermistor and thermocouple approaches measure the temperature at the point of contact, a much smaller area. With the PIR thermometer, I could not read the rollers in my laminator at all because they are surrounded by the heater structure except where the paper path is. Those slots were too narrow for either of my PIR thermometers. Another issue with the PIR thermometers, usually ignored in the advertising, is that the emissivity of the surface being measured has an effect on the readings. In plain English, this means that two surfaces made with different materials could be at the same temperature, but give different readings on the PIR. Surfaces with multiple materials, if they fall in the reading area, will give a reading that integrates the two readings, rather than providing a true reading. I tried to use the RepRap thermistor in my original control circuit, and found that while it works, the resistance vs temperature curve is very flat near 200�C, making the controller action sluggish. I abandoned the thermistor approach in favor of a purchased controller with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet put it into service because of the melted gears. As far as the location of the thermistor in the Royal laminator, this is a mechanically simple location to use, and if we think about it, we understand that there is no need to measure the actual temperature of the rollers, at least in the original application of the laminator. As long as the temperature drop between the heater and the roller is known, the system can be calibrated for proper operation with the thermistor mounted on the heater structure. The Harbor Freight unit uses mechanical thermoswitches mounted on the heater structure. In our toner transfer case, it is not clear (at least to me) that measuring at the heater is sufficient. Since we are putting single or double sided thermally conductive boards of different sizes through the rollers, I am not sure that the temperature drop is sufficiently constant that we don't have to measure the temperature at the roller. I was experimenting with this when my gears turned to mush. Harvey
On 12/30/2016 8:24 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > Where do you mount this device without destroying it and melting > solder on the supporting > chips in the toner work PCB heating path? > How far do you mount it from the desired location where you are > pinpointing temperature measurment? > > > > > While I would agree that a Non contact passive infrared rules.......... > > I would like to some day compare the accuracy of the $20 passive > infrared with > the K type thermocouple and a simple thermistor. > > Noting that my ROYAL laminator heater control was done by a contact > thermistor clamped to the aluminum heat shield > behind a roller heater. > > > When I was looking into thermocouple circuits and supporting chips it > looked like about $15 gets that done > and > 5 cents buys a thermistor.... > or maybe a dollar if it has wires. > > New Reprap NTC 3950 Thermistor 100K with 1 Meter wire for 3D Printer TSCA > > > On 12/30/2016 09:02 AM, AncelB mosaicmerc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >> >> Non contact passive infrared rules... >> Get one of these... >> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9570 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >
2016-12-30 by Rob
Which one? RE: approach in favor of a purchased controller with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet put it into service because of the melted gears. On 12/30/2016 01:04 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
> > Rob, > > The Passive IR gun type thermometer is only used for making initial > measurements, not for a feedback type control system. The PIR > thermometers have a distance to spot ratio. The Sparkfun unit > mentioned previously has a ratio of 12:1, meaning that at a distance > of 12 inches, the detector is reading the temperature in a 1 inch > circle. The thermistor and thermocouple approaches measure the > temperature at the point of contact, a much smaller area. With the PIR > thermometer, I could not read the rollers in my laminator at all > because they are surrounded by the heater structure except where the > paper path is. Those slots were too narrow for either of my PIR > thermometers. Another issue with the PIR thermometers, usually ignored > in the advertising, is that the emissivity of the surface being > measured has an effect on the readings. In plain English, this means > that two surfaces made with different materials could be at the same > temperature, but give different readings on the PIR. Surfaces with > multiple materials, if they fall in the reading area, will give a > reading that integrates the two readings, rather than providing a true > reading. > > I tried to use the RepRap thermistor in my original control circuit, > and found that while it works, the resistance vs temperature curve is > very flat near 200�C, making the controller action sluggish. I > abandoned the thermistor approach in favor of a purchased controller > with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I > have not yet put it into service because of the melted gears. > > As far as the location of the thermistor in the Royal laminator, this > is a mechanically simple location to use, and if we think about it, we > understand that there is no need to measure the actual temperature of > the rollers, at least in the original application of the laminator. As > long as the temperature drop between the heater and the roller is > known, the system can be calibrated for proper operation with the > thermistor mounted on the heater structure. The Harbor Freight unit > uses mechanical thermoswitches mounted on the heater structure. > > In our toner transfer case, it is not clear (at least to me) that > measuring at the heater is sufficient. Since we are putting single or > double sided thermally conductive boards of different sizes through > the rollers, I am not sure that the temperature drop is sufficiently > constant that we don't have to measure the temperature at the roller. > I was experimenting with this when my gears turned to mush. > > Harvey > > > On 12/30/2016 8:24 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >> >> Where do you mount this device without destroying it and melting >> solder on the supporting >> chips in the toner work PCB heating path? >> How far do you mount it from the desired location where you are >> pinpointing temperature measurment? >> >> >> >> >> While I would agree that a Non contact passive infrared rules.......... >> >> I would like to some day compare the accuracy of the $20 passive >> infrared with >> the K type thermocouple and a simple thermistor. >> >> Noting that my ROYAL laminator heater control was done by a contact >> thermistor clamped to the aluminum heat shield >> behind a roller heater. >> >> >> When I was looking into thermocouple circuits and supporting chips it >> looked like about $15 gets that done >> and >> 5 cents buys a thermistor.... >> or maybe a dollar if it has wires. >> >> New Reprap NTC 3950 Thermistor 100K with 1 Meter wire for 3D Printer TSCA >> >> >> On 12/30/2016 09:02 AM, AncelB mosaicmerc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] >> wrote: >>> >>> Non contact passive infrared rules... >>> Get one of these... >>> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9570 >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >> > >
2016-12-30 by Harvey Altstadter
Rob, The link that I purchased from is inactive, but this is the same unit: http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-24V-Digital-Temperature-Controller-Board-Thermostat-K-Thermocouple-Probe-/182145097075?var=&hash=item2a68b19d73:m:m-d0W2aqMiE7N3CDhyhvxFwIT has the thermocouple in a bolt, but I also bought several pieces of the bead type in case I need to have the thermocouple in contact with the roller. The one I bought operates from 12 VDC. A small wall wart would do, or as in my case, I bought a 110VAC to 12 VDC converter module from ebay. Very little current is needed. One like this would do: http://www.ebay.com/itm/85V-265V-to-6V-12VDC-6W-9W-2-3-x3W-900ma-12V-LED-Driver-Power-Supply-/251651394313?hash=item3a97978b09:g:CPcAAOSw1DtXI3rk Harvey
On 12/30/2016 12:28 PM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > > Which one? > > RE: > approach in favor of a purchased controller with a type K > thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet > put it into service because of the melted gears. > > On 12/30/2016 01:04 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... > [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >> >> Rob, >> >> The Passive IR gun type thermometer is only used for making initial >> measurements, not for a feedback type control system. The PIR >> thermometers have a distance to spot ratio. The Sparkfun unit >> mentioned previously has a ratio of 12:1, meaning that at a distance >> of 12 inches, the detector is reading the temperature in a 1 inch >> circle. The thermistor and thermocouple approaches measure the >> temperature at the point of contact, a much smaller area. With the >> PIR thermometer, I could not read the rollers in my laminator at all >> because they are surrounded by the heater structure except where the >> paper path is. Those slots were too narrow for either of my PIR >> thermometers. Another issue with the PIR thermometers, usually >> ignored in the advertising, is that the emissivity of the surface >> being measured has an effect on the readings. In plain English, this >> means that two surfaces made with different materials could be at the >> same temperature, but give different readings on the PIR. Surfaces >> with multiple materials, if they fall in the reading area, will give >> a reading that integrates the two readings, rather than providing a >> true reading. >> >> I tried to use the RepRap thermistor in my original control circuit, >> and found that while it works, the resistance vs temperature curve is >> very flat near 200�C, making the controller action sluggish. I >> abandoned the thermistor approach in favor of a purchased controller >> with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I >> have not yet put it into service because of the melted gears. >> >> As far as the location of the thermistor in the Royal laminator, this >> is a mechanically simple location to use, and if we think about it, >> we understand that there is no need to measure the actual temperature >> of the rollers, at least in the original application of the >> laminator. As long as the temperature drop between the heater and the >> roller is known, the system can be calibrated for proper operation >> with the thermistor mounted on the heater structure. The Harbor >> Freight unit uses mechanical thermoswitches mounted on the heater >> structure. >> >> In our toner transfer case, it is not clear (at least to me) that >> measuring at the heater is sufficient. Since we are putting single or >> double sided thermally conductive boards of different sizes through >> the rollers, I am not sure that the temperature drop is sufficiently >> constant that we don't have to measure the temperature at the roller. >> I was experimenting with this when my gears turned to mush. >> >> Harvey >> >> >> On 12/30/2016 8:24 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >>> >>> Where do you mount this device without destroying it and melting >>> solder on the supporting >>> chips in the toner work PCB heating path? >>> How far do you mount it from the desired location where you are >>> pinpointing temperature measurment? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> While I would agree that a Non contact passive infrared rules.......... >>> >>> I would like to some day compare the accuracy of the $20 passive >>> infrared with >>> the K type thermocouple and a simple thermistor. >>> >>> Noting that my ROYAL laminator heater control was done by a contact >>> thermistor clamped to the aluminum heat shield >>> behind a roller heater. >>> >>> >>> When I was looking into thermocouple circuits and supporting chips >>> it looked like about $15 gets that done >>> and >>> 5 cents buys a thermistor.... >>> or maybe a dollar if it has wires. >>> >>> New Reprap NTC 3950 Thermistor 100K with 1 Meter wire for 3D Printer >>> TSCA >>> >>> >>> On 12/30/2016 09:02 AM, AncelB mosaicmerc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Non contact passive infrared rules... >>>> Get one of these... >>>> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9570 >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>> >> > >
2016-12-30 by keith printy
The lead wires on thermocouples usually are soldered with some type of lead based solder. In high heat conditions this can come loose or oxidize to where it is weak . when I worked in an electronics plant and we dealt with high heat we always used thermocouples. When we used a packaged temperature controller they were usually type j . when we used microprocessor control they were type k .
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 2:29 PM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Temp upgrades of lam's NON CONTACT PASSIVE INFRARED Which one? RE: approach in favor of a purchased controller with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet put it into service because of the melted gears. On 12/30/2016 01:04 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: Rob, The Passive IR gun type thermometer is only used for making initial measurements, not for a feedback type control system. The PIR thermometers have a distance to spot ratio. The Sparkfun unit mentioned previously has a ratio of 12:1, meaning that at a distance of 12 inches, the detector is reading the temperature in a 1 inch circle. The thermistor and thermocouple approaches measure the temperature at the point of contact, a much smaller area. With the PIR thermometer, I could not read the rollers in my laminator at all because they are surrounded by the heater structure except where the paper path is. Those slots were too narrow for either of my PIR thermometers. Another issue with the PIR thermometers, usually ignored in the advertising, is that the emissivity of the surface being measured has an effect on the readings. In plain English, this means that two surfaces made with different materials could be at the same temperature, but give different readings on the PIR. Surfaces with multiple materials, if they fall in the reading area, will give a reading that integrates the two readings, rather than providing a true reading. I tried to use the RepRap thermistor in my original control circuit, and found that while it works, the resistance vs temperature curve is very flat near 200°C, making the controller action sluggish. I abandoned the thermistor approach in favor of a purchased controller with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet put it into service because of the melted gears. As far as the location of the thermistor in the Royal laminator, this is a mechanically simple location to use, and if we think about it, we understand that there is no need to measure the actual temperature of the rollers, at least in the original application of the laminator. As long as the temperature drop between the heater and the roller is known, the system can be calibrated for proper operation with the thermistor mounted on the heater structure. The Harbor Freight unit uses mechanical thermoswitches mounted on the heater structure. In our toner transfer case, it is not clear (at least to me) that measuring at the heater is sufficient. Since we are putting single or double sided thermally conductive boards of different sizes through the rollers, I am not sure that the temperature drop is sufficiently constant that we don't have to measure the temperature at the roller. I was experimenting with this when my gears turned to mush. Harvey On 12/30/2016 8:24 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: Where do you mount this device without destroying it and melting solder on the supporting chips in the toner work PCB heating path? How far do you mount it from the desired location where you are pinpointing temperature measurment? While I would agree that a Non contact passive infrared rules.......... I would like to some day compare the accuracy of the $20 passive infrared with the K type thermocouple and a simple thermistor. Noting that my ROYAL laminator heater control was done by a contact thermistor clamped to the aluminum heat shield behind a roller heater. When I was looking into thermocouple circuits and supporting chips it looked like about $15 gets that done and 5 cents buys a thermistor.... or maybe a dollar if it has wires. New Reprap NTC 3950 Thermistor 100K with 1 Meter wire for 3D Printer TSCA On 12/30/2016 09:02 AM, AncelB mosaicmerc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: Non contact passive infrared rules... Get one of these... https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9570 _____
2016-12-31 by Rob
How HIGH is what you say is high heat conditions that weaken the soldered thermocouple ? Considering that some are rated at over 2,000 F degrees while others only are rated to 400 F. On 12/30/2016 03:15 PM, 'keith printy' keethpr@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
> > The lead wires on thermocouples usually are soldered with some type of > lead based solder. In high heat conditions this can come loose or > oxidize to where it is weak . when I worked in an electronics plant > and we dealt with high heat we always used thermocouples. When we used > a packaged temperature controller they were usually type j . when we > used microprocessor control they were type k . > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > Which one? > > RE: > approach in favor of a purchased controller with a type K > thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet > put it into service because of the melted gears. > > On 12/30/2016 01:04 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... > <mailto:hrconsult@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > Rob, > > The Passive IR gun type thermometer is only used for making > initial measurements, not for a feedback type control system. The > PIR thermometers have a distance to spot ratio. The Sparkfun unit > mentioned previously has a ratio of 12:1, meaning that at a > distance of 12 inches, the detector is reading the temperature in > a 1 inch circle. The thermistor and thermocouple approaches > measure the temperature at the point of contact, a much smaller > area. With the PIR thermometer, I could not read the rollers in my > laminator at all because they are surrounded by the heater > structure except where the paper path is. Those slots were too > narrow for either of my PIR thermometers. Another issue with the > PIR thermometers, usually ignored in the advertising, is that the > emissivity of the surface being measured has an effect on the > readings. In plain English, this means that two surfaces made with > different materials could be at the same temperature, but give > different readings on the PIR. Surfaces with multiple materials, > if they fall in the reading area, will give a reading that > integrates the two readings, rather than providing a true reading. > > I tried to use the RepRap thermistor in my original control > circuit, and found that while it works, the resistance vs > temperature curve is very flat near 200�C, making the controller > action sluggish. I abandoned the thermistor approach in favor of a > purchased controller with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD > 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet put it into service > because of the melted gears. > > As far as the location of the thermistor in the Royal laminator, > this is a mechanically simple location to use, and if we think > about it, we understand that there is no need to measure the > actual temperature of the rollers, at least in the original > application of the laminator. As long as the temperature drop > between the heater and the roller is known, the system can be > calibrated for proper operation with the thermistor mounted on the > heater structure. The Harbor Freight unit uses mechanical > thermoswitches mounted on the heater structure. > > In our toner transfer case, it is not clear (at least to me) that > measuring at the heater is sufficient. Since we are putting single > or double sided thermally conductive boards of different sizes > through the rollers, I am not sure that the temperature drop is > sufficiently constant that we don't have to measure the > temperature at the roller. I was experimenting with this when my > gears turned to mush. > > Harvey > > On 12/30/2016 8:24 AM, Rob roomberg@... > <mailto:roomberg@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > >
2016-12-31 by Harvey Altstadter
Thermocouples are made by welding two wires of different materials together. That's what makes the bead on the bead type. The other terminations are just methods for making rugged ways to mount and protect the bead, which is kind of fragile. The wires will stay together over the entire operating temperature range of the TC. Thermistors are usually soldered into their circuits. The temperature at which the joints will fail is a function of what type of solder was used. Depending on the type of lead material used on the thermistor, it may also possible to weld them. The RepRap glass bead thermistors that I bought have magnetic leads, telling me that they are probably weldable, and I would expect that the thermistor that comes with the cable attached is probably welded. Harvey
On 12/30/2016 6:06 PM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > How HIGH is what you say is high heat conditions that weaken the > soldered thermocouple ? > Considering that some are rated at over 2,000 F degrees > while others only are rated to 400 F. > > > > > > On 12/30/2016 03:15 PM, 'keith printy' keethpr@... > [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >> >> The lead wires on thermocouples usually are soldered with some type >> of lead based solder. In high heat conditions this can come loose or >> oxidize to where it is weak . when I worked in an electronics plant >> and we dealt with high heat we always used thermocouples. When we >> used a packaged temperature controller they were usually type j . >> when we used microprocessor control they were type k . >> >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> > >> Which one? >> >> RE: >> approach in favor of a purchased controller with a type K >> thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet >> put it into service because of the melted gears. >> >> On 12/30/2016 01:04 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... >> <mailto:hrconsult@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >> >> Rob, >> >> The Passive IR gun type thermometer is only used for making >> initial measurements, not for a feedback type control system. The >> PIR thermometers have a distance to spot ratio. The Sparkfun unit >> mentioned previously has a ratio of 12:1, meaning that at a >> distance of 12 inches, the detector is reading the temperature in >> a 1 inch circle. The thermistor and thermocouple approaches >> measure the temperature at the point of contact, a much smaller >> area. With the PIR thermometer, I could not read the rollers in >> my laminator at all because they are surrounded by the heater >> structure except where the paper path is. Those slots were too >> narrow for either of my PIR thermometers. Another issue with the >> PIR thermometers, usually ignored in the advertising, is that the >> emissivity of the surface being measured has an effect on the >> readings. In plain English, this means that two surfaces made >> with different materials could be at the same temperature, but >> give different readings on the PIR. Surfaces with multiple >> materials, if they fall in the reading area, will give a reading >> that integrates the two readings, rather than providing a true >> reading. >> >> I tried to use the RepRap thermistor in my original control >> circuit, and found that while it works, the resistance vs >> temperature curve is very flat near 200�C, making the controller >> action sluggish. I abandoned the thermistor approach in favor of >> a purchased controller with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD >> 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet put it into service >> because of the melted gears. >> >> As far as the location of the thermistor in the Royal laminator, >> this is a mechanically simple location to use, and if we think >> about it, we understand that there is no need to measure the >> actual temperature of the rollers, at least in the original >> application of the laminator. As long as the temperature drop >> between the heater and the roller is known, the system can be >> calibrated for proper operation with the thermistor mounted on >> the heater structure. The Harbor Freight unit uses mechanical >> thermoswitches mounted on the heater structure. >> >> In our toner transfer case, it is not clear (at least to me) that >> measuring at the heater is sufficient. Since we are putting >> single or double sided thermally conductive boards of different >> sizes through the rollers, I am not sure that the temperature >> drop is sufficiently constant that we don't have to measure the >> temperature at the roller. I was experimenting with this when my >> gears turned to mush. >> >> Harvey >> >> On 12/30/2016 8:24 AM, Rob roomberg@... >> <mailto:roomberg@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >> >> > >
2016-12-31 by AncelB
When a laminator's net roller speed is modified, you also modify the heat energy transfer to the rollers as the same surface of the roller sees more radiant heat in a given time. Thus it gets hotter without even upgrading the heater. Now if you run the rollers too slow, the roller area being heated vs the roller area being sensed will have a hi temperature delta and you could burn the rollers. If the gears are exposed to some of this heat conducted by the roller shaft, thermoplastic gears can 'become' plastic and fail. I encountered this heat delta effect when I was developing & monitoring my Apache/Trulam mod with a FLIR camera. To eliminate this heat spike, whenever the mod. reverses the roller it cuts the heater. This seems to work well to date with no roller damage and good transfers. Thus running the laminator at 'normal' speed during the heat up phase and then 'slowing' the rollers just for the Toner Transfer phase and returning the laminator to normal speed afterward keeps the rollers from seeing too much of a heat delta cycle and they suffer less degradation. For the different laminators being modified, cheaper units seem to have cheaper materials in them, with less accurate controls. Thus it's trial and error as to how slow and how hot you can go before you exceed the design spec enough to destroy the laminator and make a fire hazard. Rob's approach eliminates this risk but is not 'over the counter' repeatable for everyone and is certainly more time consuming when you have a batch to run! I shipped a built Apache/Trulam mod. to Italy yesterday based on the newer layout with the SMT PIC. It uses low ESR SMT bypass caps and wider power rail traces as well to mitigate PIC resets due to transient power spijes as are generated from the relay and heater switching.
2016-12-31 by David C. Partridge
But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least they are in my laminator) so
stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference.
Dave
2016-12-31 by Rob
Really? This grabs my attention. What make and model? Can you take a picture and share? Is there an online parts list we can eyeball that shows how concentric heaters are mounted? On 12/31/2016 11:53 AM, 'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
> > But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least they > are in my laminator) so > > stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference. > > Dave > >
2016-12-31 by Harvey Altstadter
Ancel, I am not sure I understand why slowing the rollers causes them to pick up more heat energy. In my laminator (Harbor Freight) there are two heaters, placed on opposite sides fo the rollers. The heaters are attached to aluminum structures that enclose the roller assembly all around, except for the slots for the paper path. Slowing down the rollers does not change their exposure to the heat source when there is no board traversing the path. With a board in place, the board would act as a heat removal path, changing the temperature of the rollers. I would think that slower speed would allow more heat to bleed out the otherwise closed heater area. Does the Apache/Trulam have an open structure that allows visibility by the FLIR camera? It would be difficult to get a good reading on the Harbor Freight unit because of the close spacing (~1/8") of the paper path. The rollers are recessed far inside, and the slots are actually a fairly deep aluminum structure. Less accurate control systems in the cheap units is an understatement. The temperature control for my unit is a thermoswitch mounted on the heater. This is a single heat unit, so no more control is needed for normal lamination. I got curious to see what temperature the thermal fuse is rated for. This fuse is clamped to one of the aluminum heater fins, and is covered by a flexible plasticized glass fiber filled sleeve. The fuse is marked as 185�C. By mounting it in the thermally insulating sleeve, the heater temperature can go higher without tripping the fuse. I had it operating at approximately 210�C for an extended period without any complaint from the fuse. The only thing that fuses was the gears. I have not yet had the time to determine the softening temperature of the structural plastic that supports the roller assembly. This outcome will determine whether there is any point in continuing with this particular laminator. The Brother toner supposedly fuses around 370�F, or 188�C. I have measured a 20�C temperature difference between the heater fins and the roller, making operation around 210+�C a necessary condition for my use of this laminator. Harvey
On 12/31/2016 7:45 AM, AncelB mosaicmerc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > When a laminator's net roller speed is modified, you also modify the > heat energy transfer to the rollers as the same surface of the roller > sees more radiant heat in a given time. Thus it gets hotter without even > upgrading the heater. > Now if you run the rollers too slow, the roller area being heated vs the > roller area being sensed will have a hi temperature delta and you could > burn the rollers. If the gears are exposed to some of this heat > conducted by the roller shaft, thermoplastic gears can 'become' plastic > and fail. > > I encountered this heat delta effect when I was developing & monitoring > my Apache/Trulam mod with a FLIR camera. To eliminate this heat spike, > whenever the mod. reverses the roller it cuts the heater. This seems to > work well to date with no roller damage and good transfers. Thus running > the laminator at 'normal' speed during the heat up phase and then > 'slowing' the rollers just for the Toner Transfer phase and returning > the laminator to normal speed afterward keeps the rollers from seeing > too much of a heat delta cycle and they suffer less degradation. > > For the different laminators being modified, cheaper units seem to have > cheaper materials in them, with less accurate controls. Thus it's trial > and error as to how slow and how hot you can go before you exceed the > design spec enough to destroy the laminator and make a fire hazard. > > Rob's approach eliminates this risk but is not 'over the counter' > repeatable for everyone and is certainly more time consuming when you > have a batch to run! > > I shipped a built Apache/Trulam mod. to Italy yesterday based on the > newer layout with the SMT PIC. It uses low ESR SMT bypass caps and wider > power rail traces as well to mitigate PIC resets due to transient power > spijes as are generated from the relay and heater switching. > >
2016-12-31 by Harvey Altstadter
Rob, The Harbor Freight unit is "concentric" in the sense that the heat is provide from all around the roller assembly. It is not concentric with either roller. There are two heaters mounted on opposite sides of the rollers, and an aluminum structure that is manufactured to fit around the rollers. The aluminum structure is actually two pieces that are separated to form the slots for the paper path. The BOM for this unit is mostly irrelevant. By the time the mod is done, not much of the original circuitry or wiring remains. The temperature control thermoswitch is removed,and replaced by the temperature controller I referenced yesterday, the thermal switch that controls the ready light is removed because it operates at a temperature that is irrelevant. What remains is the small circuit board that holds the ready LED and the power indicator LED, and the ON/OFF switch. This board has two rectifiers, two resistors and two LEDs. The motor remains, the heaters remain and the thermal fuse remains. There are some photos of the interior of the laminator here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15304611@N03/sets/72157635447779272/ This mod is one that adds a dimmer in series with the motor, so most of the pics have to do with modifying and mounting the dimmer, but there a few that show the motor, the heater and the circuit board. The heater control thermoswitch is on the underside of the heater assembly, and not in view in these pics. Harvey
On 12/31/2016 11:10 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > Really? This grabs my attention. > What make and model? > Can you take a picture and share? > Is there an online parts list we can eyeball that shows how concentric > heaters are mounted? > > > > On 12/31/2016 11:53 AM, 'David C. Partridge' > david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >> >> But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least >> they are in my laminator) so >> >> stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference. >> >> Dave >> > >
2016-12-31 by Rob
thanks I had not seen that dimmer hack yet. Those pictures show the guts of the laminator. Looks a lot like my APACHE AL9 http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/al9.html http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/index.html On 12/31/2016 02:38 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
> > Rob, > > The Harbor Freight unit is "concentric" in the sense that the heat is > provide from all around the roller assembly. It is not concentric with > either roller. There are two heaters mounted on opposite sides of the > rollers, and an aluminum structure that is manufactured to fit around > the rollers. The aluminum structure is actually two pieces that are > separated to form the slots for the paper path. > > The BOM for this unit is mostly irrelevant. By the time the mod is > done, not much of the original circuitry or wiring remains. The > temperature control thermoswitch is removed,and replaced by the > temperature controller I referenced yesterday, the thermal switch that > controls the ready light is removed because it operates at a > temperature that is irrelevant. What remains is the small circuit > board that holds the ready LED and the power indicator LED, and the > ON/OFF switch. This board has two rectifiers, two resistors and two > LEDs. The motor remains, the heaters remain and the thermal fuse remains. > > There are some photos of the interior of the laminator here: > https://www.flickr.com/photos/15304611@N03/sets/72157635447779272/ > This mod is one that adds a dimmer in series with the motor, so most > of the pics have to do with modifying and mounting the dimmer, but > there a few that show the motor, the heater and the circuit board. The > heater control thermoswitch is on the underside of the heater > assembly, and not in view in these pics. > > Harvey > > On 12/31/2016 11:10 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >> >> Really? This grabs my attention. >> What make and model? >> Can you take a picture and share? >> Is there an online parts list we can eyeball that shows how >> concentric heaters are mounted? >> >> >> >> On 12/31/2016 11:53 AM, 'David C. Partridge' >> david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >>> >>> But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least >>> they are in my laminator) so >>> >>> stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference. >>> >>> Dave >>> >> > >
2016-12-31 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg
Rob That first link is the same unit I am butchering, with Arduino PID temperature control and motor speed control. New gears and end plates under construction. Malcolm I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it! Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin The writing is on the wall. Ha-ktovet al ha-kir -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 12/31/16, Rob roomberg@ptd.net [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Temp upgrades of lam's Harbor Freight hack
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, December 31, 2016, 8:31 PM
thanks
I had not seen that dimmer hack yet.
Those pictures show the guts of the laminator.
Looks a lot like my APACHE AL9
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/al9.html
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/index.html
On 12/31/2016 02:38 PM,
Harvey
Altstadter hrconsult@...
[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
Rob,
The Harbor Freight unit is
"concentric" in the sense that
the heat is provide from all around the roller
assembly.
It is not concentric with either roller. There
are two
heaters mounted on opposite sides of the
rollers, and an
aluminum structure that is manufactured to fit
around the
rollers. The aluminum structure is actually
two pieces
that are separated to form the slots for the
paper path.
The BOM for this unit is mostly irrelevant.
By the time
the mod is done, not much of the original
circuitry or
wiring remains. The temperature control
thermoswitch is
removed,and replaced by the temperature
controller I
referenced yesterday, the thermal switch that
controls the
ready light is removed because it operates at
a
temperature that is irrelevant. What remains
is the small
circuit board that holds the ready LED and the
power
indicator LED, and the ON/OFF switch. This
board has two
rectifiers, two resistors and two LEDs. The
motor remains,
the heaters remain and the thermal fuse
remains.
There are some photos of the interior of the
laminator
here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15304611@N03/sets/72157635447779272/
This mod is one that adds a dimmer in series
with the
motor, so most of the pics have to do with
modifying and
mounting the dimmer, but there a few that show
the motor,
the heater and the circuit board. The heater
control
thermoswitch is on the underside of the heater
assembly,
and not in view in these pics.
Harvey
On
12/31/2016 11:10 AM, Rob roomberg@...
[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
Really? This grabs my
attention.
What make and model?
Can you take a picture and share?
Is there an online parts list we can
eyeball that
shows how concentric heaters are
mounted?
On
12/31/2016 11:53 AM,
'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@...
[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
But,
but the heaters are concentric
with the
rollers (or at least they are in
my laminator)
so
stopped/forward/reverse
should make no
difference.
Dave
#yiv1213773308 #yiv1213773308 --2017-01-01 by Harvey Altstadter
Rob, It looks like it is similar to the Apache that you have, but it lacks the second thermoswitch mounted directly on the heater. I don't understand the wiring in parallel of the two thermoswitches in your schematic. I assume that they are normally closed, opening on reaching their specified temperature. Since they are in parallel, and wired in series with the heater, the only one that would have any effect would be the higher temperature one. I could understand if they were in series. Then the lower temperature switch would be the controller, with the higher temp switch acting as a protection in case the lower temperature switch failed short. The effect on the green light would be the same as it is in your description. The HF unit has an additional thermoswitch mounted on the heater in a thermally insulating mount. That switch is normally open, and is in series with the resistor, rectifier and the green LED, and turns on the ready light when the unit has reached temperature. The HF unit is also somewhat larger, with a larger heater assembly. The rest is empty space. Harvey
On 12/31/2016 1:31 PM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > thanks > I had not seen that dimmer hack yet. > Those pictures show the guts of the laminator. > Looks a lot like my APACHE AL9 > http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/al9.html > > http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/index.html > > > > On 12/31/2016 02:38 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... > [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >> >> Rob, >> >> The Harbor Freight unit is "concentric" in the sense that the heat is >> provide from all around the roller assembly. It is not concentric >> with either roller. There are two heaters mounted on opposite sides >> of the rollers, and an aluminum structure that is manufactured to fit >> around the rollers. The aluminum structure is actually two pieces >> that are separated to form the slots for the paper path. >> >> The BOM for this unit is mostly irrelevant. By the time the mod is >> done, not much of the original circuitry or wiring remains. The >> temperature control thermoswitch is removed,and replaced by the >> temperature controller I referenced yesterday, the thermal switch >> that controls the ready light is removed because it operates at a >> temperature that is irrelevant. What remains is the small circuit >> board that holds the ready LED and the power indicator LED, and the >> ON/OFF switch. This board has two rectifiers, two resistors and two >> LEDs. The motor remains, the heaters remain and the thermal fuse >> remains. >> >> There are some photos of the interior of the laminator here: >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/15304611@N03/sets/72157635447779272/ >> This mod is one that adds a dimmer in series with the motor, so most >> of the pics have to do with modifying and mounting the dimmer, but >> there a few that show the motor, the heater and the circuit board. >> The heater control thermoswitch is on the underside of the heater >> assembly, and not in view in these pics. >> >> Harvey >> >> On 12/31/2016 11:10 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >>> >>> Really? This grabs my attention. >>> What make and model? >>> Can you take a picture and share? >>> Is there an online parts list we can eyeball that shows how >>> concentric heaters are mounted? >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/31/2016 11:53 AM, 'David C. Partridge' >>> david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >>>> >>>> But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least >>>> they are in my laminator) so >>>> >>>> stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>> >> > >
2017-01-01 by Rob
Yea... the AL9 was a real mindbender..... having the two parrallel thermal switches and the shorting out of the indicator lights circuit. On 12/31/2016 07:35 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
> > Rob, > > It looks like it is similar to the Apache that you have, but it lacks > the second thermoswitch mounted directly on the heater. I don't > understand the wiring in parallel of the two thermoswitches in your > schematic. I assume that they are normally closed, opening on reaching > their specified temperature. Since they are in parallel, and wired in > series with the heater, the only one that would have any effect would > be the higher temperature one. I could understand if they were in > series. Then the lower temperature switch would be the controller, > with the higher temp switch acting as a protection in case the lower > temperature switch failed short. The effect on the green light would > be the same as it is in your description. > > The HF unit has an additional thermoswitch mounted on the heater in a > thermally insulating mount. That switch is normally open, and is in > series with the resistor, rectifier and the green LED, and turns on > the ready light when the unit has reached temperature. > > The HF unit is also somewhat larger, with a larger heater assembly. > The rest is empty space. > > Harvey > > > On 12/31/2016 1:31 PM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >> >> thanks >> I had not seen that dimmer hack yet. >> Those pictures show the guts of the laminator. >> Looks a lot like my APACHE AL9 >> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/al9.html >> >> http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/index.html >> >> >> >> On 12/31/2016 02:38 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... >> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >>> >>> Rob, >>> >>> The Harbor Freight unit is "concentric" in the sense that the heat >>> is provide from all around the roller assembly. It is not concentric >>> with either roller. There are two heaters mounted on opposite sides >>> of the rollers, and an aluminum structure that is manufactured to >>> fit around the rollers. The aluminum structure is actually two >>> pieces that are separated to form the slots for the paper path. >>> >>> The BOM for this unit is mostly irrelevant. By the time the mod is >>> done, not much of the original circuitry or wiring remains. The >>> temperature control thermoswitch is removed,and replaced by the >>> temperature controller I referenced yesterday, the thermal switch >>> that controls the ready light is removed because it operates at a >>> temperature that is irrelevant. What remains is the small circuit >>> board that holds the ready LED and the power indicator LED, and the >>> ON/OFF switch. This board has two rectifiers, two resistors and two >>> LEDs. The motor remains, the heaters remain and the thermal fuse >>> remains. >>> >>> There are some photos of the interior of the laminator here: >>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/15304611@N03/sets/72157635447779272/ >>> This mod is one that adds a dimmer in series with the motor, so most >>> of the pics have to do with modifying and mounting the dimmer, but >>> there a few that show the motor, the heater and the circuit board. >>> The heater control thermoswitch is on the underside of the heater >>> assembly, and not in view in these pics. >>> >>> Harvey >>> >>> On 12/31/2016 11:10 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >>>> >>>> Really? This grabs my attention. >>>> What make and model? >>>> Can you take a picture and share? >>>> Is there an online parts list we can eyeball that shows how >>>> concentric heaters are mounted? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/31/2016 11:53 AM, 'David C. Partridge' >>>> david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >>>>> >>>>> But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least >>>>> they are in my laminator) so >>>>> >>>>> stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference. >>>>> >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > >
2017-01-01 by David C. Partridge
It’s a Vivid IP-330 described as having “hot roller” technology. I need to dig it out as I can’t remember what I did to increase the Temp range (probably just changed a resistor in the op-amp circuit that used a 1N4148 as a Temp sensor). Can’t find a parts list …
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 31 December 2016 18:11 To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Temp upgrades of lam's HOW high is high heat conditions Really? This grabs my attention. What make and model? Can you take a picture and share? Is there an online parts list we can eyeball that shows how concentric heaters are mounted? On 12/31/2016 11:53 AM, 'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least they are in my laminator) so stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference. Dave
2017-01-01 by mosaicmerc@...
2017-01-01 by Harvey Altstadter
Ancel, That makes sense. I am beginning to see why the laser printers I have looked at use heaters inside the rollers. Harvey
On 1/1/2017 7:07 AM, mosaicmerc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > Harvey asked : > >>I am not sure I understand why slowing the rollers causes them to > pick up more heat energy. In my laminator (Harbor Freight) there are > two heaters, placed on opposite sides fo the rollers. The heaters are > attached to aluminum structures that enclose the roller assembly all > around, except for the slots for the paper path.<< > > During development of the Apache PCB mod, I effectively slowed the > rollers to a net zero movement. > > Before long the rollers' area closest to the heaters started to smoke > a lot. > > When I powered down cooled and dismantled the rollers they had > developed a white powdery surface which shed when wiped. After > cleaning this sediment the rollers had become oval shaped and frangible. > > I swapped them out with the 'cold rollers' (quad roller laminator) and > wrapped them in kapton tape to keep them serviceable. > > In summary; the reflected heat from the metal enclosure is not as much > as the direct radiant heat from the heater coils and (with an almost > parked roller) this creates a temperature on the roller surface than > can exceed the roller's spec, if the roller does not rotate away from > the heater and cool off. > Because the temp sensor is on the exposed side of the roller away > from the heaters, it depends on the hot side of the roller rotating > into contact with it, if this doesn't happen fast enough, the temp > sensor sees a temp well below the hottest part of the rollers and does > NOT shut off the heater, resulting in overheating. > > > > > > > >
2017-01-01 by Rob
Always learning something new here. 1N4148 + LM741 makes a temperature sensor On 01/01/2017 07:11 AM, 'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
> > It\u2019s a Vivid IP-330 described as having \u201chot roller\u201d technology. > > I need to dig it out as I can\u2019t remember what I did to increase the > Temp range (probably just changed a resistor in the op-amp circuit > that used a 1N4148 as a Temp sensor). > > Can\u2019t find a parts list \u2026 > > *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] > *Sent:* 31 December 2016 18:11 > *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Temp upgrades of lam's HOW high is > high heat conditions > > Really? This grabs my attention. > What make and model? > Can you take a picture and share? > Is there an online parts list we can eyeball that shows how concentric > heaters are mounted? > > On 12/31/2016 11:53 AM, 'David C. Partridge' > david.partridge@... <mailto:david.partridge@...> > [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least > they are in my laminator) so > > stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference. > > Dave > >
2017-01-01 by Harvey Altstadter
Rob, It does, but the maximum operating temperature is 200�C for the 4148. With ~-2mV/�C tempco, it is difficult to build a controller that works well up to that temperature. You also need to calibrate it because the tempco is not constant over the full temperature range, nor is it exactly -2 mV/�C. I was unhappy with the way it worked when I did it, so I switched over to the RepRap thermistor. Unhappy with the poor performance at hot temperature, I bought the thermocouple based temperature controller. The linearity of diode type temperature sensors is pretty good for short temperature ranges, but going from room temperature to the temperature ranges we are using didn't give me satisfactory performance. For me, the thermocouple is the best route. Thermocouples are tricky because their terminations make additional thermocouples in series with the measurement couple, screwing up the readings. A packaged solution that takes care of the termination issues is the easiest way. At $8.99, a bargain! No fuss, no muss, no bother. And digital readout, too. Harvey
On 1/1/2017 9:56 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > Always learning something new here. > 1N4148 + LM741 makes a temperature sensor > > > > On 01/01/2017 07:11 AM, 'David C. Partridge' > david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >> >> It\u2019s a Vivid IP-330 described as having \u201chot roller\u201d technology. >> >> I need to dig it out as I can\u2019t remember what I did to increase the >> Temp range (probably just changed a resistor in the op-amp circuit >> that used a 1N4148 as a Temp sensor). >> >> Can\u2019t find a parts list \u2026 >> >> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com >> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] >> *Sent:* 31 December 2016 18:11 >> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com >> *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Temp upgrades of lam's HOW high is >> high heat conditions >> >> Really? This grabs my attention. >> What make and model? >> Can you take a picture and share? >> Is there an online parts list we can eyeball that shows how >> concentric heaters are mounted? >> >> On 12/31/2016 11:53 AM, 'David C. Partridge' >> david.partridge@... <mailto:david.partridge@...> >> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: >> >> But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least >> they are in my laminator) so >> >> stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference. >> >> Dave >> > >
2017-01-01 by keith printy
I have an old heathkit digital thermometer. It used 1n4149 diodes 2 of them in series to make the temp sensors . the voltage across the diodes changes with temp that seems to be how it works. Might be a little hot in a laminator though for this type of sensor.
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2017 11:57 AM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Temp upgrades of lam's HOW high is high heat conditions Always learning something new here. 1N4148 + LM741 makes a temperature sensor On 01/01/2017 07:11 AM, 'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: It’s a Vivid IP-330 described as having “hot roller” technology. I need to dig it out as I can’t remember what I did to increase the Temp range (probably just changed a resistor in the op-amp circuit that used a 1N4148 as a Temp sensor). Can’t find a parts list … From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 31 December 2016 18:11 To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Temp upgrades of lam's HOW high is high heat conditions Really? This grabs my attention. What make and model? Can you take a picture and share? Is there an online parts list we can eyeball that shows how concentric heaters are mounted? On 12/31/2016 11:53 AM, 'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least they are in my laminator) so stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference. Dave
2017-01-01 by Kevin Byrne
A transistor with two of three legs soldered together makes a temperature probe. Is the temperature inside of lam too hot? Google for temperature probe circuits like I do for other projects.
2017-01-01 by Rob
2017-01-01 by Cecil Bayona
On 1/1/2017 2:31 PM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > > Wow > all sorts of web sources explaining how to measure temp with diodes and > transistors. > https://youtu.be/fvjDWfRpdAI > > > > > > A transistor with two of three legs soldered together makes a > temperature probe. Is > the temperature inside of lam too hot? Google for temperature probe > circuits like I > do for other projects. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Posted by: Rob <roomberg@...> You do realize that diodes and transistors can not handle the temperatures involved while they have power. Most Silicon transistors can handle up to 100C which is much lower than the temperature of the rollers. -- Cecil - k5nwa http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/
2017-01-01 by Rob
YES... there are temperature limits for all the components...... My interest here was in the shear fact that there did exist temperature measurement circuits using diodes and transistors..... and for my real world application of 350 F toner transfer I'll stick to rep-rap thermistors which more than perform well enough for my purposes. But the diode idea intrigued me.... simple enough... for other low temp applications. On 01/01/2017 03:41 PM, Cecil Bayona cecil.bayona@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
> > On 1/1/2017 2:31 PM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > Wow > > all sorts of web sources explaining how to measure temp with diodes and > > transistors. > > https://youtu.be/fvjDWfRpdAI > > > > You do realize that diodes and transistors can not handle the > temperatures involved while they have power. Most Silicon transistors > can handle up to 100C which is much lower than the temperature of the > rollers. > > -- > Cecil - k5nwa > http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/ > >
2017-01-01 by Harvey Altstadter
That will work just fine, but unless you use a transistor with a metal case, your upper temperature will be limited to 150�C, or possibly lower. If you use a metal case transistor, remember that the collector is connected to the case, and this may cause a grounding problem. Temperature limit with the metal can is 200�C or lower. Look at the datasheet for the maximum storage temperature, and use the lowest current through the transistor you can.
On 1/1/2017 12:11 PM, Kevin Byrne kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > A transistor with two of three legs soldered together makes a > temperature probe. Is > the temperature inside of lam too hot? Google for temperature probe > circuits like I > do for other projects. >
2017-01-01 by me@...
2017-01-01 by David C. Partridge
They work fine up to 250C no problem! Dave
2017-01-01 by alan00463@...
2017-01-01 by David C. Partridge
> For exactly one pass through the laminator, what would be the optimal temperature? My modified laminator runs up to 250C and even than needs multiple passes for a large 11” x 8” double sized 1.6mm PCB (thermal capacity of PCB too high). A small 0.8mm PCB will work in one pass at 250C. Even with a metal case this is pushing the limits (I had to recover the rollers with glass fibre shrink-fit and cover that with PTFE shrink-fit). Overall a single pass temperature setting for a large board would be so high as to kill even PTFE covered rollers, and would probably overcook the first part of the board. There are more exotic roller coverings than PTFE but the price would make your eyes water copiously (think hundreds of pounds). I think that a solution similar to Ancel’s where the roller speeds are modified and driven in a forward/backward manner is probably the best. FWIW I only do laser transfer now for the LARGE boards that would be too costly from a PCB supply house. Dave
2017-01-01 by Harvey Altstadter
It is unless you need to go to a higher temperature range. The metal can, TO-46 part only goes to 148.5�C. The other plastic packages are even lower. The LM34AH metal can part sells for USD 19.41 at Arrow. There is a whole family of these simple thermometers, but all suffer from the same limitations.
On 1/1/2017 2:59 PM, me@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > > A LM34DZ is a HELL of a lot more simple than trying to use a diode > or transistor to measure temperature. > >
2017-01-01 by Harvey Altstadter
The other possibility would be an in line pre heater. In that case, the rollers wouldn't have to get so hot, as the board could be at or close to the fusing temperature upon entering the laminator. On 1/1/2017 3:35 PM, 'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
> > > For exactly one pass through the laminator, what would be the > optimal temperature? > > My modified laminator runs up to 250C and even than needs multiple > passes for a large 11\u201d x 8\u201d double sized 1.6mm PCB (thermal capacity > of PCB too high). A small 0.8mm PCB will work in one pass at 250C. > > Even with a metal case this is pushing the limits (I had to recover > the rollers with glass fibre shrink-fit and cover that with PTFE > shrink-fit). > > Overall a single pass temperature setting for a large board would be > so high as to kill even PTFE covered rollers, and would probably > overcook the first part of the board. > > There are more exotic roller coverings than PTFE but the price would > make your eyes water copiously (think hundreds of pounds). > > I think that a solution similar to Ancel\u2019s where the roller speeds are > modified and driven in a forward/backward manner is probably the best. > > FWIW I only do laser transfer now for the LARGE boards that would be > too costly from a PCB supply house. > > Dave > >
2017-01-02 by Mark Lerman
Why not just use a thermistor? It's made for that purpose, already calibrated, costs a dollar or so, is tiny snd rugged, and can be read with a simple ohmmeter. Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 1, 2017, at 3:31 PM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > Wow > all sorts of web sources explaining how to measure temp with diodes and transistors. > https://youtu.be/fvjDWfRpdAI > > > > > > A transistor with two of three legs soldered together makes a temperature probe. Is > the temperature inside of lam too hot? Google for temperature probe circuits like I > do for other projects. > > >
2017-01-02 by Rob
Yesssss yes.... thermistor is where I started with all this... http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/index.html http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/index.html we landed on the diode discussion because the PACE PP330 circuit can be hacked by for higher toner melt temps by changing out two resisters http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg On 01/01/2017 08:35 PM, Mark Lerman mlerman@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
> Why not just use a thermistor? It's made for that purpose, already > calibrated, costs a dollar or so, is tiny snd rugged, and can be read > with a simple ohmmeter. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 1, 2017, at 3:31 PM, Rob roomberg@... > <mailto:roomberg@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] > <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>> > wrote: > >> Wow >> all sorts of web sources explaining how to measure temp with diodes >> and transistors. >> https://youtu.be/fvjDWfRpdAI >> >> >> >> >> >> A transistor with two of three legs soldered together makes a >> temperature probe. Is >> the temperature inside of lam too hot? Google for temperature probe >> circuits like I >> do for other projects. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >
2017-01-02 by David C. Partridge
And for clarification Pace/Vivid laminator uses a 1n4148 as temp sensor. Dave
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 02 January 2017 01:45 To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Temp upgrades of lam's HOW high is high heat conditions Yesssss yes.... thermistor is where I started with all this... http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/index.html http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/pic/index.html we landed on the diode discussion because the PACE PP330 circuit can be hacked by for higher toner melt temps by changing out two resisters http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg
2017-01-02 by Rob
What is the component labeled K1 1mH 400 ohm on the right side of this schematic? http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg
2017-01-02 by James
What is the component labeled K1 1mH 400 ohm on the right side of this
schematic?
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg
2017-01-02 by Rob
THANK YOU now that you call it a relay it makes sense there is the D7 1N4007 across it.
On 01/01/2017 10:50 PM, James bitsyboffin@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote: > I would say it is a relay. > > The box is the coil which has 400 Ohm resistance and 1mH inductance > > I don't know why they specified the inductance of the coil, I can't > imagine it's really important, probably it's just what they had. > > Since said coil is shown as powered from 12v, and we know it's 400R, > it will be around 25-30mA when the transistor below it is saturated. > > On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 4:35 PM, Rob roomberg@... > <mailto:roomberg@...> [Homebrew_PCBs] > <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>> > wrote: > > What is the component labeled K1 1mH 400 ohm on the right side of > this > schematic? > > http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg > <http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg> > > >
2017-01-02 by keith printy
The transistor is being used as a diode. I’ve seen this on amplifiers to monitor the power transistors and adjust the bias so it don’t go into thermal runaway. In all heater circuits I have dealt with we always used a temperature control with a thermocouple. These withstood the higher temperatures . they also had some form of high limit protection in case of a shorted thermocouple or controller failure.if the thermocouple failed open the controller simply shut the heat off altogether.
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2017 2:12 PM To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Temp upgrades of lam's HOW high is high heat conditions A transistor with two of three legs soldered together makes a temperature probe. Is the temperature inside of lam too hot? Google for temperature probe circuits like I do for other projects.
2017-01-02 by David C. Partridge
Relay, the Bulb shown on the schematic is a stand in to the heaters
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 02 January 2017 03:36 To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] WHAT is K1 1mH 400 ohm What is the component labeled K1 1mH 400 ohm on the right side of this schematic? http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg
2017-01-02 by Edward Brown
K1 is a relay coil,the ohm and mh are the coils specs Sent from my iPad
> On 2 Jan 2017, at 6:06 PM, 'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Relay, the Bulb shown on the schematic is a stand in to the heaters > > > > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] > Sent: 02 January 2017 03:36 > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] WHAT is K1 1mH 400 ohm > > > > > > What is the component labeled K1 1mH 400 ohm on the right side of this > schematic? > > http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg > > >
2017-01-02 by Mark Lerman
The transistor is being used as a diode. Iâve seen this on amplifiers to monitor the power transistors and adjust the bias so it donât go into thermal runaway. In all heater circuits I have dealt with we always used a temperature control with a thermocouple. These withstood the higher temperatures . they also had some form of high limit protection in case of a shorted thermocouple or controller failure.if the thermocouple failed open the controller simply shut the heat off altogether.
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2017 2:12 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Temp upgrades of lam's HOW high is high heat conditions
A transistor with two of three legs soldered together makes a temperature probe. Is
the temperature inside of lam too hot? Google for temperature probe circuits like I
do for other projects.
2017-01-02 by Howard Chester
What is the component labeled K1 1mH 400 ohm on the right side of this schematic? http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg As stated by other members posts, this is a single pole 12V relay.The schematic has been created with National Instruments Multisim Program - Simulation. Schematic capture and PCB layout package.In the Simulation (SPICE based) package various circuit paramaters can be altered "on the fly" while the simulation is running.Using available real time instruments any part of the circuit can be probed and the results noted / plotted.The NIMultisim BLUE package is available FREE from Mouser Electronics Components. It comes with a basic component libary, all other component libary parts can be added as real parts from Mouser as a multipart SPICE Package with Schematic symbol and the corresponding PCBFootprint.Be warned, this download is very large (well into GBytes) and requires time and patience to confidently utalise all of the package features Hope this helps, chester
2017-01-02 by David C. Partridge
It’s the relay driving the heater (shown as a 12V lamp in the schematic).
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 02 January 2017 17:41 To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] WHAT is K1 1mH 400 ohm What is the component labeled K1 1mH 400 ohm on the right side of this schematic? http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg <http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg> As stated by other members posts, this is a single pole 12V relay. <http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg> The schematic has been created with National Instruments Multisim Program - Simulation. Schematic capture and PCB layout package. <http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg> In the Simulation (SPICE based) package various circuit paramaters can be altered <http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg> "on the fly" while the simulation is running. Using available real time instruments any part of the circuit can be probed and the results noted / plotted. <http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg> The NIMultisim BLUE package is available FREE from Mouser Electronics Components. It comes with a basic component libary, all other <http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg> component libary parts can be added as real parts from Mouser as a multipart SPICE Package with Schematic symbol and the corresponding PCB <http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg> Footprint. <http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg> Be warned, this download is very large (well into GBytes) and requires time and patience to confidently utalise all of the package features <http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg> Hope this helps, chester <http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg>
2017-01-03 by Mog
