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Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-05 by Nuno Tavares

Certainly worth trying!

Thanks for sharing.

 

Nuno T.

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: terça-feira, 5 de Janeiro de 2016 16:18
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

 



Saw this on Instructables. Looked interesting.

http://www.instructa bles.com/id/Heatless-cold-Toner-Transfer-for-PCB-Making/?ALLSTEPS

 

 

 


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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-05 by MIKE DURKIN

Can we assume that's denatured alcohol ? ... need to get some acetone .... where do you get pure stuff ?

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 08:18:17 -0800
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

 

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-06 by alienrelics@...

It says Ethyl Alcohol, which is often denatured. Not everyone uses the same denaturing agents.

However, in one of the comments he says:
"The one I use is Ethyl alcohol (pure 96%) also called Ethanol. It's the one used as antiseptic."

Medical Ethyl alcohol seems to be about 95% or so.

Hardware store denatured alcohol seems to be about 90%.
 
Some people in the comments mentioned Everclear. It seems to be sold in 75.5% (151 proof) and 95% (190 proof).

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-06 by keith printy

If you are in the united states you can get acetone at ace hardware stores or boat supply shops. It is used for thinning fiberglass resin. Last time I bought a gallon it was about $17

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 2:56 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

 

 

Can we assume that's denatured alcohol ? ... need to get some acetone .... where do you get pure stuff ?

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 08:18:17 -0800
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

 

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-06 by Jean-Paul Louis

Pure Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) will be the hardest to find in the US. All the pharmacies in the US now carry IPA (Iso Propyl Alcohol) which is not Ethanol. 96% purity limit for current ethanol is not by accident. It is the maximum purity that you can obtain by distillation. In order to get 99%, you need to use a different process that will go beyond the 96% limit. I do not know the english name of the process.
When I was in France, 99% Ethanol was available at any pharmacy and was called “Alcool rectifié” which translate approximately by rectified alcohol.

My $0.02,
Jean-Paul
N1JPL / ex-AC9GH


> On Jan 5, 2016, at 7:02 PM, alienrelics@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> It says Ethyl Alcohol, which is often denatured. Not everyone uses the same denaturing agents.
>
>
> However, in one of the comments he says:
> "The one I use is Ethyl alcohol (pure 96%) also called Ethanol. It's the one used as antiseptic."
>
> Medical Ethyl alcohol seems to be about 95% or so.
>
> Hardware store denatured alcohol seems to be about 90%.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol
>
> Some people in the comments mentioned Everclear. It seems to be sold in 75.5% (151 proof) and 95% (190 proof).
>
> Steve Greenfield AE7HD
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-06 by Roger Blair

FYI...
http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLE2248
General Chemical Specifications: Assay (C2H5OH; by Volume) Min. 99.5% Water (H2O)0.2%
Roger Blair

On 1/5/2016 5:43 PM, Jean-Paul Louis louijp@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
 

Pure Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) will be the hardest to find in the US. All the pharmacies in the US now carry IPA (Iso Propyl Alcohol) which is not Ethanol. 96% purity limit for current ethanol is not by accident. It is the maximum purity that you can obtain by distillation. In order to get 99%, you need to use a different process that will go beyond the 96% limit. I do not know the english name of the process.
When I was in France, 99% Ethanol was available at any pharmacy and was called “Alcool rectifié” which translate approximately by rectified alcohol.

My $0.02,
Jean-Paul
N1JPL / ex-AC9GH

> On Jan 5, 2016, at 7:02 PM, alienrelics@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> It says Ethyl Alcohol, which is often denatured. Not everyone uses the same denaturing agents.
>
>
> However, in one of the comments he says:
> "The one I use is Ethyl alcohol (pure 96%) also called Ethanol. It's the one used as antiseptic."
>
> Medical Ethyl alcohol seems to be about 95% or so.
>
> Hardware store denatured alcohol seems to be about 90%.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol
>
> Some people in the comments mentioned Everclear. It seems to be sold in 75.5% (151 proof) and 95% (190 proof).
>
> Steve Greenfield AE7HD
>
>


Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-06 by Jean-Paul Louis

WOW, that’s really expensive! $144.10 per liter + hazardous material fee + shipping.

Jean-Paul
N1JPL





> On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:18 PM, Roger Blair Roger.Blair@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> FYI...
> http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLE2248
>
> General Chemical Specifications: Assay (C2H5OH; by Volume) Min. 99.5% Water (H2O)0.2%
> Roger Blair
>
> On 1/5/2016 5:43 PM, Jean-Paul Louis louijp@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> Pure Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) will be the hardest to find in the US. All the pharmacies in the US now carry IPA (Iso Propyl Alcohol) which is not Ethanol. 96% purity limit for current ethanol is not by accident. It is the maximum purity that you can obtain by distillation. In order to get 99%, you need to use a different process that will go beyond the 96% limit. I do not know the english name of the process.
>> When I was in France, 99% Ethanol was available at any pharmacy and was called “Alcool rectifié” which translate approximately by rectified alcohol.
>>
>> My $0.02,
>> Jean-Paul
>> N1JPL / ex-AC9GH
>>
>> > On Jan 5, 2016, at 7:02 PM, alienrelics@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > It says Ethyl Alcohol, which is often denatured. Not everyone uses the same denaturing agents.
>> >
>> >
>> > However, in one of the comments he says:
>> > "The one I use is Ethyl alcohol (pure 96%) also called Ethanol. It's the one used as antiseptic."
>> >
>> > Medical Ethyl alcohol seems to be about 95% or so.
>> >
>> > Hardware store denatured alcohol seems to be about 90%.
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol
>> >
>> > Some people in the comments mentioned Everclear. It seems to be sold in 75.5% (151 proof) and 95% (190 proof).
>> >
>> > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>

Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-06 by Ancel

It's an interesting method....useful for smaller boards and probably a
little cheaper than toner paper/hot transfer & foil transfer, but
carries a higher risk of flammability and fume inhalation.
It will take longer than hot transfer due to the 'drying out process'
before peeling the paper.
Also, the hot laminator transfer method handles silk screens via foil
transfer as well so this can't do that.
I do use a bit of acetone to 'clean' boards of toner particles after
etching and sanding. A couple drops is all I need.
Acrylic bonding of laser cut acrylic also works well with acetone as a
solvent 'glue'.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-06 by Roger Blair

Yes,
Expensive enough to do a needs/cost/benefit reality check! My point was that greater than 99% purity was available... As a hobbyist, I would start with hardware-store grade materials and test my way up the cost ladder to a reasonable result for the application.
Roger

On 1/5/2016 8:01 PM, Jean-Paul Louis louijp@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
 

WOW, that’s really expensive! $144.10 per liter + hazardous material fee + shipping.

Jean-Paul
N1JPL

> On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:18 PM, Roger Blair Roger.Blair@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> FYI...
> http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLE2248
>
> General Chemical Specifications: Assay (C2H5OH; by Volume) Min. 99.5% Water (H2O)0.2%
> Roger Blair
>
> On 1/5/2016 5:43 PM, Jean-Paul Louis louijp@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> Pure Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) will be the hardest to find in the US. All the pharmacies in the US now carry IPA (Iso Propyl Alcohol) which is not Ethanol. 96% purity limit for current ethanol is not by accident. It is the maximum purity that you can obtain by distillation. In order to get 99%, you need to use a different process that will go beyond the 96% limit. I do not know the english name of the process.
>> When I was in France, 99% Ethanol was available at any pharmacy and was called “Alcool rectifié” which translate approximately by rectified alcohol.
>>
>> My $0.02,
>> Jean-Paul
>> N1JPL / ex-AC9GH
>>
>> > On Jan 5, 2016, at 7:02 PM, alienrelics@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > It says Ethyl Alcohol, which is often denatured. Not everyone uses the same denaturing agents.
>> >
>> >
>> > However, in one of the comments he says:
>> > "The one I use is Ethyl alcohol (pure 96%) also called Ethanol. It's the one used as antiseptic."
>> >
>> > Medical Ethyl alcohol seems to be about 95% or so.
>> >
>> > Hardware store denatured alcohol seems to be about 90%.
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol
>> >
>> > Some people in the comments mentioned Everclear. It seems to be sold in 75.5% (151 proof) and 95% (190 proof).
>> >
>> > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>


Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-06 by rolohar@...

Roger Blair:

Your point is well taken.

We do not know that the character and quality of the materials indicated in the "Heatless Toner Transfer"
write-up are actually necessary for successful application of the process.  They may simply be the
materials that the author had on hand.

We do not know how much research and experimentation the author engaged in when selecting
these materials, and some of them seem to be rather "exotic" , in my opinion, for the
reactions they are required to produce.

As an example:  I recall when everyone used ferric chloride (a very nasty compound) as an
etchant for copper.  Later-on, someone discovered that drug store hydrogen peroxide and
muriatic acid obtained from most big hardware and pool supply stores would perform as well,
and perhaps even better than the other material, and at a much lower cost per application.

Perhaps other materials would work as well as the ones the author used.

This would be a good "project" for someone with the time and patience to find more
practical and more easily obtainable materials.

The task consists of Process and Materials specification:

The "process" seems plausable. Now the effort should be to obtain practical "materials"

Caution should always be exercised when working with any material.
Even boiling water can cause serious injury if mishandled.

Regards,

Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
***************************

From: "Roger Blair Roger.Blair@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 12:05:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

 

Yes,
Expensive enough to do a needs/cost/benefit reality check! My point was that greater than 99% purity was available... As a hobbyist, I would start with hardware-store grade materials and test my way up the cost ladder to a reasonable result for the application.
Roger

On 1/5/2016 8:01 PM, Jean-Paul Louis louijp@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
 

WOW, that’s really expensive! $144.10 per liter + hazardous material fee + shipping.

Jean-Paul
N1JPL

> On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:18 PM, Roger Blair Roger.Blair@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> FYI...
> http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLE2248
>
> General Chemical Specifications: Assay (C2H5OH; by Volume) Min. 99.5% Water (H2O)0.2%
> Roger Blair
>
> On 1/5/2016 5:43 PM, Jean-Paul Louis louijp@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> Pure Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) will be the hardest to find in the US. All the pharmacies in the US now carry IPA (Iso Propyl Alcohol) which is not Ethanol. 96% purity limit for current ethanol is not by accident. It is the maximum purity that you can obtain by distillation. In order to get 99%, you need to use a different process that will go beyond the 96% limit. I do not know the english name of the process.
>> When I was in France, 99% Ethanol was available at any pharmacy and was called “Alcool rectifié” which translate approximately by rectified alcohol.
>>
>> My $0.02,
>> Jean-Paul
>> N1JPL / ex-AC9GH
>>
>> > On Jan 5, 2016, at 7:02 PM, alienrelics@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > It says Ethyl Alcohol, which is often denatured. Not everyone uses the same denaturing agents.
>> >
>> >
>> > However, in one of the comments he says:
>> > "The one I use is Ethyl alcohol (pure 96%) also called Ethanol. It's the one used as antiseptic."
>> >
>> > Medical Ethyl alcohol seems to be about 95% or so.
>> >
>> > Hardware store denatured alcohol seems to be about 90%.
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol
>> >
>> > Some people in the comments mentioned Everclear. It seems to be sold in 75.5% (151 proof) and 95% (190 proof).
>> >
>> > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>




Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-07 by Howard Chester

Correct me if I'm wrong... But isn't brandy, whiskey and vodka consist of denatured Ethyl  Alcohol?
If you make up a simple "still" to concentrate a few Liters of a well known Russian brand of vodka that is "filtered through charcoal seven times for purity", or perhaps contact the local "moonshiners" for a pure(undiluted) pint of their finest would be a lot cheaper?
chester

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-07 by Corey Minion

No

"Methylated spirit (Meths or denatured alcohol—but not Rubbing alcohol which is different) is ethanol which has been rendered toxic or otherwise undrinkable, and in some cases dyed.
It is used for purposes such as fuel for spirit burners and camping stoves, and as a solvent.
Traditionally, the main additive was 10% methanol, which gave rise to its name, but this is not always the case now.
There are diverse industrial uses for ethanol, and therefore literally hundreds of recipes for denaturing ethanol.
Typical additives are methanol, isopropanol, methyl ethyl ketone, methyl isobutyl ketone, denatonium, and even (uncommonly) aviation gasoline.

As used in the phrase denatured alcohol, denatured means "a specific property of ethanol, its usefulness as a beverage, is removed".
The ethanol molecule is not denatured in the sense that its chemical structure is altered."

ref:http://cqconcepts.com/chem_denaturedethylalcohol.php

(and decent pricing for 99% - not affiliated in any way)

Booze - that's 40-60% alcohol the most potent 'shine is 75%
you might be able to use the first few pints, which are toxic and undrinkable.

Corey

On 1/7/2016 8:35 AM, Howard Chester howard.chester@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong... But isn't brandy, whiskey and vodka consist of denatured Ethyl  Alcohol?
If you make up a simple "still" to concentrate a few Liters of a well known Russian brand of vodka that is "filtered through charcoal seven times for purity", or perhaps contact the local "moonshiners" for a pure(undiluted) pint of their finest would be a lot cheaper?
chester


Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-07 by alienrelics@...

Everclear 190 proof is available for around $30 per liter, after tax. Not sure why everyone is getting worked up about getting even more pure ethanol.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-07 by Jean-Paul Louis

Hi Steve,

I agree with you. I just found out about the Everclear product.

190 proof is 95% pure ethanol, so it should work just fine for the purpose.

73 de Jean-Paul
N1JPL





> On Jan 7, 2016, at 12:06 PM, alienrelics@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> Everclear 190 proof is available for around $30 per liter, after tax. Not sure why everyone is getting worked up about getting even more pure ethanol.
>
>
> Steve Greenfield AE7HD
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-07 by leeleduc@...

I've watched the video of the process using ethanol and acetone. The ethanol looks liked it's used to dilute the acetone to make the solution less aggressive to the Styrene acrylate copolymer used in the toner. Acetone is also miscible in isopropyl alcohol. 99% isopropyl alcohol is readily available at a pharmacy like CVS or Walgreens. I use it to clean electronics and optics. It cost me less than $3 per 16 ounce bottle. 99% isopropyl alcohol may be a good substituie for the ethanol. I'll give it a try, just won't be able to get to it for a couple of weeks.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-07 by rolohar@...



1. It seems that the primary functions of the alcohol are to (a) clean the PCB and and artwork,
and (b) dilute the effectivity of the acetone, then I do not see the need for  "exotic" materials.

2. If the function of the acetone is to soften the laser toner so that under slight pressure it will
get "sticky" and adhere to the copper, then it seems that there is no
requirement for a "special" type of acetone, as any acetone will soften and eventually dissolve
laser toner.

I don't know what type of "blending" takes place between the alcohol and the acetone,
if there is actually anything like cross-linking, etc.   I doubt it.

3. If I can dig up some unwanted PCB artwork that was copied on a laser printer (on glossly paper),
I'll do a quick and dirty experiment with the materials I have on hand, which would be
90% Iso, and off-the-shelf acetone from my local hardware store.

I'm just not understanding the need for difficult-to-obtain compounds for such a simple
operation.

I hope some others will try whatever materials they have and we can see if this very
alluring process can be made totally practical.

BTW: On YouTube, there is also a video showing how to use shipping tape, like the
Scotch shipping tape product, to transfer laser generated artwork to PCB's
Looks very interesting.

I don't have a laser printer, so I can't try it.

Regards.

Roland F. Harriston, P.D.


From: "Jean-Paul Louis louijp@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2016 10:45:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

 

Hi Steve,

I agree with you. I just found out about the Everclear product.

190 proof is 95% pure ethanol, so it should work just fine for the purpose.

73 de Jean-Paul
N1JPL

> On Jan 7, 2016, at 12:06 PM, alienrelics@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> Everclear 190 proof is available for around $30 per liter, after tax. Not sure why everyone is getting worked up about getting even more pure ethanol.
>
>
> Steve Greenfield AE7HD
>
>


RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-08 by keith printy

You could just set up your own still and make it. Alcohol boils at a lower temperature than water , so when you distill it the alcohol boils off but the water stays behind. Another thought maybe try e 85 motor fuel? It is 85% alcohol 15 % gasolinethis alcohol would have to be very pure because a car does not run well if at all below like 180 proof

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 8:53 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

 

 

No

"Methylated spirit (Meths or denatured alcohol—but not Rubbing alcohol which is different) is ethanol which has been rendered toxic or otherwise undrinkable, and in some cases dyed.
It is used for purposes such as fuel for spirit burners and camping stoves, and as a solvent.
Traditionally, the main additive was 10% methanol, which gave rise to its name, but this is not always the case now.
There are diverse industrial uses for ethanol, and therefore literally hundreds of recipes for denaturing ethanol.
Typical additives are methanol, isopropanol, methyl ethyl ketone, methyl isobutyl ketone, denatonium, and even (uncommonly) aviation gasoline.

As used in the phrase denatured alcohol, denatured means "a specific property of ethanol, its usefulness as a beverage, is removed".
The ethanol molecule is not denatured in the sense that its chemical structure is altered."

ref:http://cqconcepts.com/chem_denaturedethylalcohol.php

(and decent pricing for 99% - not affiliated in any way)

Booze - that's 40-60% alcohol the most potent 'shine is 75%
you might be able to use the first few pints, which are toxic and undrinkable.

Corey

On 1/7/2016 8:35 AM, Howard Chester howard.chester@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong... But isn't brandy, whiskey and vodka consist of denatured Ethyl  Alcohol?

If you make up a simple "still" to concentrate a few Liters of a well known Russian brand of vodka that is "filtered through charcoal seven times for purity", or perhaps contact the local "moonshiners" for a pure(undiluted) pint of their finest would be a lot cheaper?

chester

 

 

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-08 by keith printy

To get it past 96% maybe they distill the alcohol again to further reduce the water content ?  remember alcohol boils at a lower temp than water that is how a still leaves the water behind. I would think the alcohol is only being used in the toner transfer process as maybe a carrier?  Most toners I have seen are polyester based and acetone will dissolve them. You can for example clean vinyl with acetone but you must dilute with water or it will dissolve it.

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 11:01 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

 

 

WOW, that’s really expensive! $144.10 per liter + hazardous material fee + shipping.

Jean-Paul
N1JPL

> On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:18 PM, Roger Blair Roger.Blair@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> FYI...
> http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLE2248
>
> General Chemical Specifications: Assay (C2H5OH; by Volume) Min. 99.5% Water (H2O)0.2%
> Roger Blair
>
> On 1/5/2016 5:43 PM, Jean-Paul Louis louijp@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>>
>> Pure Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) will be the hardest to find in the US. All the pharmacies in the US now carry IPA (Iso Propyl Alcohol) which is not Ethanol. 96% purity limit for current ethanol is not by accident. It is the maximum purity that you can obtain by distillation. In order to get 99%, you need to use a different process that will go beyond the 96% limit. I do not know the english name of the process.
>> When I was in France, 99% Ethanol was available at any pharmacy and was called “Alcool rectifié” which translate approximately by rectified alcohol.
>>
>> My $0.02,
>> Jean-Paul
>> N1JPL / ex-AC9GH
>>
>> > On Jan 5, 2016, at 7:02 PM, alienrelics@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > It says Ethyl Alcohol, which is often denatured. Not everyone uses the same denaturing agents.
>> >
>> >
>> > However, in one of the comments he says:
>> > "The one I use is Ethyl alcohol (pure 96%) also called Ethanol. It's the one used as antiseptic."
>> >
>> > Medical Ethyl alcohol seems to be about 95% or so.
>> >
>> > Hardware store denatured alcohol seems to be about 90%.
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol
>> >
>> > Some people in the comments mentioned Everclear. It seems to be sold in 75.5% (151 proof) and 95% (190 proof).
>> >
>> > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-08 by Donald H Locker

To get past 95.6% requires something other than distillation to separate the alcohol from the water. At 95.6%, the ethanol and water boil off simultaneously at the same temperature (it's an azeotropic mixture; look it up if you want to know more) and the concentration just doesn't change any more.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol#Purification> has a good writeup.

Donald.

----- Original Message -----
> From: "'keith printy' keethpr@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2016 7:41:02 PM
> Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making
>
> To get it past 96% maybe they distill the alcohol again to further reduce the
> water content ? remember alcohol boils at a lower temp than water that is
> how a still leaves the water behind. I would think the alcohol is only being
> used in the toner transfer process as maybe a carrier? Most toners I have
> seen are polyester based and acetone will dissolve them. You can for example
> clean vinyl with acetone but you must dilute with water or it will dissolve
> it.
>
>
>
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 11:01 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making
>
>
>
>
>
> WOW, that’s really expensive! $144.10 per liter + hazardous material fee +
> shipping.
>
> Jean-Paul
> N1JPL
>
> > On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:18 PM, Roger Blair Roger.Blair@...
> > [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> >
> > FYI...
> > http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLE2248
> >
> > General Chemical Specifications: Assay (C2H5OH; by Volume) Min. 99.5% Water
> > (H2O)0.2%
> > Roger Blair
> >
> > On 1/5/2016 5:43 PM, Jean-Paul Louis louijp@... [Homebrew_PCBs]
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Pure Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) will be the hardest to find in the US. All
> >> the pharmacies in the US now carry IPA (Iso Propyl Alcohol) which is not
> >> Ethanol. 96% purity limit for current ethanol is not by accident. It is
> >> the maximum purity that you can obtain by distillation. In order to get
> >> 99%, you need to use a different process that will go beyond the 96%
> >> limit. I do not know the english name of the process.
> >> When I was in France, 99% Ethanol was available at any pharmacy and was
> >> called “Alcool rectifié” which translate approximately by rectified
> >> alcohol.
> >>
> >> My $0.02,
> >> Jean-Paul
> >> N1JPL / ex-AC9GH
> >>
> >> > On Jan 5, 2016, at 7:02 PM, alienrelics@... [Homebrew_PCBs]
> >> > <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > It says Ethyl Alcohol, which is often denatured. Not everyone uses the
> >> > same denaturing agents.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > However, in one of the comments he says:
> >> > "The one I use is Ethyl alcohol (pure 96%) also called Ethanol. It's the
> >> > one used as antiseptic."
> >> >
> >> > Medical Ethyl alcohol seems to be about 95% or so.
> >> >
> >> > Hardware store denatured alcohol seems to be about 90%.
> >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol
> >> >
> >> > Some people in the comments mentioned Everclear. It seems to be sold in
> >> > 75.5% (151 proof) and 95% (190 proof).
> >> >
> >> > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-08 by Donald H Locker

Further to that, acetone is miscible with water which is really easy to find, so that may be an adequate diluent. I feel a bout of experimentation coming on! (I'm planning to use the inkjet paper with the dextrin surface, figuring that the dextrin will be softened/dissolved by the diluent while the toner will be softened by the acetone. Dextrin will then release the toner after it has had time to adhere to the circuit board.

Many thanks to the OP for noting this, and to the instructables author for the presentation.

Donald.

----- Original Message -----
> From: "rolohar@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2016 2:27:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making
>
>
>
> 1. It seems that the primary functions of the alcohol are to (a) clean the
> PCB and and artwork,
> and (b) dilute the effectivity of the acetone, then I do not see the need for
> "exotic" materials.
>
> 2. If the function of the acetone is to soften the laser toner so that under
> slight pressure it will
> get "sticky" and adhere to the copper, then it seems that there is no
> requirement for a "special" type of acetone, as any acetone will soften and
> eventually dissolve
> laser toner.
>
> I don't know what type of "blending" takes place between the alcohol and the
> acetone,
> if there is actually anything like cross-linking, etc. I doubt it.
>
> 3. If I can dig up some unwanted PCB artwork that was copied on a laser
> printer (on glossly paper),
> I'll do a quick and dirty experiment with the materials I have on hand, which
> would be
> 90% Iso, and off-the-shelf acetone from my local hardware store.
>
> I'm just not understanding the need for difficult-to-obtain compounds for
> such a simple
> operation.
>
> I hope some others will try whatever materials they have and we can see if
> this very
> alluring process can be made totally practical.
>
> BTW: On YouTube, there is also a video showing how to use shipping tape, like
> the
> Scotch shipping tape product, to transfer laser generated artwork to PCB's
> Looks very interesting.
>
> I don't have a laser printer, so I can't try it.
>
> Regards.
>
> Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Jean-Paul Louis louijp@... [Homebrew_PCBs]"
> <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2016 10:45:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making
>
>
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I agree with you. I just found out about the Everclear product.
>
> 190 proof is 95% pure ethanol, so it should work just fine for the purpose.
>
> 73 de Jean-Paul
> N1JPL
>
> > On Jan 7, 2016, at 12:06 PM, alienrelics@... [Homebrew_PCBs]
> > <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> >
> > Everclear 190 proof is available for around $30 per liter, after tax. Not
> > sure why everyone is getting worked up about getting even more pure
> > ethanol.
> >
> >
> > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-08 by leeleduc@...

Distillation of ethanol will only produce about 95% ethanol. The mixture of ethanol and water produce what is known as an azeotrope. Azeotropes are a mixture of at least two different liquids. Their mixture can either have a higher boiling point than either of the components or they can have a lower boiling point. Azeotropes occur when fraction of the liquids cannot be altered by distillation.

Here's an interesting youtube video explaining this. How to make 100% Ethanol (anhydrous)
How to make 100% Ethanol (anhydrous)
in this video we will be making some 100% Ethanol from 95% Ethanol. I use molecular sieves but other drying agents can be used. I just like sieves the most....
View on www.youtube.com
Preview by Yahoo

 


RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-08 by keith printy

I remember molecular sieves ,but would they get all the water ? what was nice about them you could bake them and reuse them

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 8:45 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

 

 

Distillation of ethanol will only produce about 95% ethanol. The mixture of ethanol and water produce what is known as an azeotrope. Azeotropes are a mixture of at least two different liquids. Their mixture can either have a higher boiling point than either of the components or they can have a lower boiling point. Azeotropes occur when fraction of the liquids cannot be altered by distillation.

Here's an interesting youtube video explaining this. How to make 100% Ethanol (anhydrous)

How to make 100% Ethanol (anhydrous)

in this video we will be making some 100% Ethanol from 95% Ethanol. I use molecular sieves but other drying agents can be used. I just like sieves the most....

Preview by Yahoo

 

 

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-08 by keith printy

Dextrin is an ingredient in most white glue’s it is also used in fireworks . they mix it with water and sometimes a little alcohol. I would think water dissolves it.

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 8:29 PM
To: Homebrew PCBs
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

 

 

Further to that, acetone is miscible with water which is really easy to find, so that may be an adequate diluent. I feel a bout of experimentation coming on! (I'm planning to use the inkjet paper with the dextrin surface, figuring that the dextrin will be softened/dissolved by the diluent while the toner will be softened by the acetone. Dextrin will then release the toner after it has had time to adhere to the circuit board.

Many thanks to the OP for noting this, and to the instructables author for the presentation.

Donald.

----- Original Message -----
> From: "rolohar@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2016 2:27:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making
>
>
>
> 1. It seems that the primary functions of the alcohol are to (a) clean the
> PCB and and artwork,
> and (b) dilute the effectivity of the acetone, then I do not see the need for
> "exotic" materials.
>
> 2. If the function of the acetone is to soften the laser toner so that under
> slight pressure it will
> get "sticky" and adhere to the copper, then it seems that there is no
> requirement for a "special" type of acetone, as any acetone will soften and
> eventually dissolve
> laser toner.
>
> I don't know what type of "blending" takes place between the alcohol and the
> acetone,
> if there is actually anything like cross-linking, etc. I doubt it.
>
> 3. If I can dig up some unwanted PCB artwork that was copied on a laser
> printer (on glossly paper),
> I'll do a quick and dirty experiment with the materials I have on hand, which
> would be
> 90% Iso, and off-the-shelf acetone from my local hardware store.
>
> I'm just not understanding the need for difficult-to-obtain compounds for
> such a simple
> operation.
>
> I hope some others will try whatever materials they have and we can see if
> this very
> alluring process can be made totally practical.
>
> BTW: On YouTube, there is also a video showing how to use shipping tape, like
> the
> Scotch shipping tape product, to transfer laser generated artwork to PCB's
> Looks very interesting.
>
> I don't have a laser printer, so I can't try it.
>
> Regards.
>
> Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Jean-Paul Louis louijp@... [Homebrew_PCBs]"
> <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2016 10:45:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making
>
>
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I agree with you. I just found out about the Everclear product.
>
> 190 proof is 95% pure ethanol, so it should work just fine for the purpose.
>
> 73 de Jean-Paul
> N1JPL
>
> > On Jan 7, 2016, at 12:06 PM, alienrelics@... [Homebrew_PCBs]
> > <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> >
> > Everclear 190 proof is available for around $30 per liter, after tax. Not
> > sure why everyone is getting worked up about getting even more pure
> > ethanol.
> >
> >
> > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-08 by Nuno Tavares

"Azeotropic" ?

There's another term I never heard before. Another thing to read and learn!
Thank you!

Nuno T.

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: sexta-feira, 8 de Janeiro de 2016 1:22
To: Homebrew PCBs
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

To get past 95.6% requires something other than distillation to separate the
alcohol from the water. At 95.6%, the ethanol and water boil off
simultaneously at the same temperature (it's an azeotropic mixture; look it
up if you want to know more) and the concentration just doesn't change any
more.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol#Purification> has a good writeup.

Donald.

----- Original Message -----
> From: "'keith printy' keethpr@... [Homebrew_PCBs]"
<Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2016 7:41:02 PM
> Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making
>
> To get it past 96% maybe they distill the alcohol again to further reduce
the
> water content ? remember alcohol boils at a lower temp than water that is
> how a still leaves the water behind. I would think the alcohol is only
being
> used in the toner transfer process as maybe a carrier? Most toners I have
> seen are polyester based and acetone will dissolve them. You can for
example
> clean vinyl with acetone but you must dilute with water or it will
dissolve
> it.
>
>
>
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 11:01 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making
>
>
>
>
>
> WOW, that’s really expensive! $144.10 per liter + hazardous material fee +
> shipping.
>
> Jean-Paul
> N1JPL
>
> > On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:18 PM, Roger Blair Roger.Blair@...
> > [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> >
> > FYI...
> > http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLE2248
> >
> > General Chemical Specifications: Assay (C2H5OH; by Volume) Min. 99.5%
Water
> > (H2O)0.2%
> > Roger Blair
> >
> > On 1/5/2016 5:43 PM, Jean-Paul Louis louijp@... [Homebrew_PCBs]
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Pure Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) will be the hardest to find in the US. All
> >> the pharmacies in the US now carry IPA (Iso Propyl Alcohol) which is
not
> >> Ethanol. 96% purity limit for current ethanol is not by accident. It is
> >> the maximum purity that you can obtain by distillation. In order to get
> >> 99%, you need to use a different process that will go beyond the 96%
> >> limit. I do not know the english name of the process.
> >> When I was in France, 99% Ethanol was available at any pharmacy and was
> >> called “Alcool rectifié” which translate approximately by rectified
> >> alcohol.
> >>
> >> My $0.02,
> >> Jean-Paul
> >> N1JPL / ex-AC9GH
> >>
> >> > On Jan 5, 2016, at 7:02 PM, alienrelics@... [Homebrew_PCBs]
> >> > <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > It says Ethyl Alcohol, which is often denatured. Not everyone uses
the
> >> > same denaturing agents.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > However, in one of the comments he says:
> >> > "The one I use is Ethyl alcohol (pure 96%) also called Ethanol. It's
the
> >> > one used as antiseptic."
> >> >
> >> > Medical Ethyl alcohol seems to be about 95% or so.
> >> >
> >> > Hardware store denatured alcohol seems to be about 90%.
> >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol
> >> >
> >> > Some people in the comments mentioned Everclear. It seems to be sold
in
> >> > 75.5% (151 proof) and 95% (190 proof).
> >> >
> >> > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>


------------------------------------
Posted by: Donald H Locker <dhlocker@...>
------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links




---
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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-08 by keith printy

I’ve heard the term before. I work in heating and cooling and some of the refrigerant blends are described as such. They say it is 2 or more components but in use behaves as one.

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 6:37 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

 

 

"Azeotropic" ?

There's another term I never heard before. Another thing to read and learn!
Thank you!

Nuno T.

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: sexta-feira, 8 de Janeiro de 2016 1:22
To: Homebrew PCBs
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

To get past 95.6% requires something other than distillation to separate the
alcohol from the water. At 95.6%, the ethanol and water boil off
simultaneously at the same temperature (it's an azeotropic mixture; look it
up if you want to know more) and the concentration just doesn't change any
more.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol#Purification> has a good writeup.

Donald.

----- Original Message -----
> From: "'keith printy' keethpr@... [Homebrew_PCBs]"
<Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2016 7:41:02 PM
> Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making
>
> To get it past 96% maybe they distill the alcohol again to further reduce
the
> water content ? remember alcohol boils at a lower temp than water that is
> how a still leaves the water behind. I would think the alcohol is only
being
> used in the toner transfer process as maybe a carrier? Most toners I have
> seen are polyester based and acetone will dissolve them. You can for
example
> clean vinyl with acetone but you must dilute with water or it will
dissolve
> it.
>
>
>
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 11:01 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making
>
>
>
>
>
> WOW, that’s really expensive! $144.10 per liter + hazardous material fee +
> shipping.
>
> Jean-Paul
> N1JPL
>
> > On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:18 PM, Roger Blair Roger.Blair@...
> > [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> >
> > FYI...
> > http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLE2248
> >
> > General Chemical Specifications: Assay (C2H5OH; by Volume) Min. 99.5%
Water
> > (H2O)0.2%
> > Roger Blair
> >
> > On 1/5/2016 5:43 PM, Jean-Paul Louis louijp@... [Homebrew_PCBs]
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Pure Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) will be the hardest to find in the US. All
> >> the pharmacies in the US now carry IPA (Iso Propyl Alcohol) which is
not
> >> Ethanol. 96% purity limit for current ethanol is not by accident. It is
> >> the maximum purity that you can obtain by distillation. In order to get
> >> 99%, you need to use a different process that will go beyond the 96%
> >> limit. I do not know the english name of the process.
> >> When I was in France, 99% Ethanol was available at any pharmacy and was
> >> called “Alcool rectifié” which translate approximately by rectified
> >> alcohol.
> >>
> >> My $0.02,
> >> Jean-Paul
> >> N1JPL / ex-AC9GH
> >>
> >> > On Jan 5, 2016, at 7:02 PM, alienrelics@... [Homebrew_PCBs]
> >> > <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > It says Ethyl Alcohol, which is often denatured. Not everyone uses
the
> >> > same denaturing agents.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > However, in one of the comments he says:
> >> > "The one I use is Ethyl alcohol (pure 96%) also called Ethanol. It's
the
> >> > one used as antiseptic."
> >> >
> >> > Medical Ethyl alcohol seems to be about 95% or so.
> >> >
> >> > Hardware store denatured alcohol seems to be about 90%.
> >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol
> >> >
> >> > Some people in the comments mentioned Everclear. It seems to be sold
in
> >> > 75.5% (151 proof) and 95% (190 proof).
> >> >
> >> > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

------------------------------------
Posted by: Donald H Locker <dhlocker@...>
------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-10 by duwaynes@...

I have been using toner transfer for years with my Brother printer and a Scotch Tl902 laminator, with great success.  Only problem has been that I need to use a genuine Brother toner cartridge, and have had problems with a little over etching of larger copper pour areas.  Saw this instructable, and thought I would give it a try, since my toner cartridge was almost out and the would have to order a new one soon.  I have a couple generic cartridges that I use for general printing, but they have not worked well for making boards, so I thought I would give them a try.
Looking around at my painting stuff I had some denatured alcohol and a couple of different types of solvent. but no acetone.   I tried a couple to see which one would dissolve toner, and found the Xylene that I used for thinning out some enamel worked well.  I tried different mixtures  and found 4 to 1 mixture of denatured alcohol to  Xylene worked well.   Printed a couple copies of a board layout on Hammermill color laser copy paper, and used a modified version of the method in the instructable.   Using a eye dropper I placed a small amount of the mixture on cleaned boards and spread it around until I had a even coating on the board.  I placed the laser print on  the board and lightly pressed it down so it made even contact with the board.  Then with the eye-dropper I flooded the back of the paper until it became nearly transparent and I could see the pattern through the paper.  Waited about 30 seconds and covered the paper with a folded over paper towel, placed a small piece of board material on top and applied pressure for about two minutes.  After that I removed the board and used the rounded back of a fork and burnished the board, first with the paper towel , and then without.  After soaking the board in water and removing the paper, everything looked nice and crisp.  Good adhesion over the entire board, and no voids that I could see.   I etched the boards, and everything came out great.  Nice clean lines, no breaks in any of the traces, good sharp clearance where I had traces going between pins, and very little problem with etch through on the large ground plane areas.
Looks like time to retire the old laminator.  I will post some pictures of a completed board on my blog.
DuWayne
KV4QB.blogspot.com

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-11 by Jeff Heiss

How do you tin your boards?  Looking good. 

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 2:42 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

 

 

I have been using toner transfer for years with my Brother printer and a Scotch Tl902 laminator, with great success.  Only problem has been that I need to use a genuine Brother toner cartridge, and have had problems with a little over etching of larger copper pour areas.  Saw this instructable, and thought I would give it a try, since my toner cartridge was almost out and the would have to order a new one soon.  I have a couple generic cartridges that I use for general printing, but they have not worked well for making boards, so I thought I would give them a try.
Looking around at my painting stuff I had some denatured alcohol and a couple of different types of solvent. but no acetone.   I tried a couple to see which one would dissolve toner, and found the Xylene that I used for thinning out some enamel worked well.  I tried different mixtures  and found 4 to 1 mixture of denatured alcohol to  Xylene worked well.   Printed a couple copies of a board layout on Hammermill color laser copy paper, and used a modified version of the method in the instructable.   Using a eye dropper I placed a small amount of the mixture on cleaned boards and spread it around until I had a even coating on the board.  I placed the laser print on  the board and lightly pressed it down so it made even contact with the board.  Then with the eye-dropper I flooded the back of the paper until it became nearly transparent and I could see the pattern through the paper.  Waited about 30 seconds and covered the paper with a folded over paper towel, placed a small piece of board material on top and applied pressure for about two minutes.  After that I removed the board and used the rounded back of a fork and burnished the board, first with the paper towel , and then without.  After soaking the board in water and removing the paper, everything looked nice and crisp.  Good adhesion over the entire board, and no voids that I could see.   I etched the boards, and everything came out great.  Nice clean lines, no breaks in any of the traces, good sharp clearance where I had traces going between pins, and very little problem with etch through on the large ground plane areas.
Looks like time to retire the old laminator.  I will post some pictures of a completed board on my blog.
DuWayne
KV4QB.blogspot.com

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-11 by rolohar@...

DuWayne:
Thanks for the detailed account of your heatless toner transfer experiment.
As I suspected, the need or exotic materials is not required.
There are many materials that will dissolve the polymer particles
that make up laser printer toner, and the alcohol mix-in is used primarily
to reduce the effectivity of the solvent so that it softens, but does not completely
distort and weaken the image too much.
Xylene is a good choice because it is relatively inexpensive
and readily available. Same for denatured alcohol, and I think
that ordinary drug store 70% or 90% isopropyl alcohol should
be OK.
The alcohol  is also effective in cleaning the bare PCB material.

I plan to try to duplicate your process sometime this week.
Thanks
Roland F. Harriston, PD
***************************

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-11 by Corey Minion

One remark, please use respirator & gloves when handling xylene.
The stuff is 100000x more carcinogenic than we knew pre 1990.
I remember working in billboard printshops mid 80s and shoving my arms bicep deep into 55 gallon drums to clean off ink.
Wondering whats going to get me down the road.

Corey

On 1/10/2016 11:47 PM, rolohar@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
DuWayne:
Thanks for the detailed account of your heatless toner transfer experiment.
As I suspected, the need or exotic materials is not required.
There are many materials that will dissolve the polymer particles
that make up laser printer toner, and the alcohol mix-in is used primarily
to reduce the effectivity of the solvent so that it softens, but does not completely
distort and weaken the image too much.
Xylene is a good choice because it is relatively inexpensive
and readily available. Same for denatured alcohol, and I think
that ordinary drug store 70% or 90% isopropyl alcohol should
be OK.
The alcohol  is also effective in cleaning the bare PCB material.

I plan to try to duplicate your process sometime this week.
Thanks
Roland F. Harriston, PD
***************************

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-12 by K5ESS

Well using a respirator and gloves is a good idea in any case but: EPA has classified mixed xylenes as a Group D, not classifiable as to human carcinogenicity.

Group D: "Not Classifiable as to Human Carcinogenicity"

"This group is generally used for agents with inadequate human and animal evidence of carcinogenicity or for which no data are available."

Most if not all chemicals and compounds have a Material Safety Data Sheet MSDS that you can find online that will tell you about the potential hazards of that material.

Two widely used cleaners/solvents in the past that are now known and listed carcinogens are Carbon Tetrachloride and Trichloroethylene.

Mike K5ESS

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 7:51 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

 

 

One remark, please use respirator & gloves when handling xylene.
The stuff is 100000x more carcinogenic than we knew pre 1990.
I remember working in billboard printshops mid 80s and shoving my arms bicep deep into 55 gallon drums to clean off ink.
Wondering whats going to get me down the road.

Corey

On 1/10/2016 11:47 PM, rolohar@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

DuWayne:

Thanks for the detailed account of your heatless toner transfer experiment.

As I suspected, the need or exotic materials is not required.

There are many materials that will dissolve the polymer particles

that make up laser printer toner, and the alcohol mix-in is used primarily

to reduce the effectivity of the solvent so that it softens, but does not completely

distort and weaken the image too much.

Xylene is a good choice because it is relatively inexpensive

and readily available. Same for denatured alcohol, and I think

that ordinary drug store 70% or 90% isopropyl alcohol should

be OK.

The alcohol  is also effective in cleaning the bare PCB material.

I plan to try to duplicate your process sometime this week.

Thanks

Roland F. Harriston, PD

***************************

 

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-12 by rolohar@...

Besides:
You are not going to take a bath in the stuff!
At most, you will have a few CC's out in the open, or a few eyedroppers' full.
Per directions.. you are going to spread a VERY thin "emulsion" of the alcohol/solvent
compound over the surface of the PC board stock, then a bit more on the paper
backing once the transfer and the PC board  are in contact.

Very few of us (I would hazard a guess) make large  numbers of PC boards that
are larger then about 50 square inches. That might be a 4 inch X 5 inch
board, or some similar aspect ratio.
If you a doing stuff much/more/larger than that, you probably should
start using one of the many Asian PC board fab houses that
do good work, and have relatively short turn-around times.
As  mentioned before...........even boiling water can be very harmful.
Regards.
Roland F. Harriston, P.D.

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Samsung ML-1860

2016-01-12 by satdaveuk@...

Hi
Anyone here know of a simple way to reset my usage counters
Got plenty of toner left but not letting me use due to print count.
Regards
Dave

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Samsung ML-1860

2016-01-12 by camillus

Hi , I googled "samsung ML-1860 reset" and this was just a couple of reactions:

http://howtoprinter.com/guide-resetup-samsung-ml-1860-printer-counters-red-led-blinking.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qik7Qy5idq4

There was more but you have to see for yourself if it is worth any thing.

Succes

On 1/12/2016 4:09:27 AM, satdaveuk@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi
Anyone here know of a simple way to reset my usage counters
Got plenty of toner left but not letting me use due to print count.
Regards
Dave

Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-12 by lilacbarn@...

Hi DuWayne. Thanks for your added and slight variation on the original instructable.

3 Questions:

1) is your Hammermill paper of the glossy photo type or a different one?

  I have a load of Kodak High Gloss Premium Photo Paper suitable for inkjet printers

  Do you think that would work too.  (I dumped my inkjet for a laser a while ago and get my

   photos done by Costco - much cheaper!)

2) you said that you "flooded the back of the paper".

  Was that with the Xylene/ethyl alcohol mix or with just the ethyl alcohol? What was the intent of that flooding?

3) how long do you wait after applying pressure and burnishing with a rounded tool before

   soaking to remove the paper baking from the toner? Do you allow the alcohol/xylene mix to evaporate before the soak?


I plan to try this method as I was without a laminator and the hot iron method did not work for me with the Brother laser toner.

Thanks, Geoff.

Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-12 by duwaynes@...

I have tried several different types of paper and the best I found is labeled
HAMMERMILL COLOR LASER GLOSS  It is thinner than the photo paper I tried, it is glossy coated on both sides. Soaks off in water very rapidly, also a lot cheaper than most photo paper, about $14.00 for 300 sheets.
Try what you have, you may have to adjust some times and amount of solvent mix used.

Yes after the paper was positioned I flooded the back of the paper with the solvent mixture. Thought this would guarantee that the toner was softened by the solvent mixture.  It only took a eyedropper full and the paper started to look translucent.  I could clearly see the toner pattern through the paper.  You might not be able to see this with a heavier paper.

After it looked like I had uniform coverage of the solvent mix, I waited abut 30 seconds before covering with a folded paper towel and applied pressure for about a minute. In one of my first tests per the video I just waited about two minutes and removed the paper towel.  I had a couple of spots where the toner that did not sick to the board.   So this time I took the rounded back of a fork and burnished to press the toner down to the board. First with the paper towel in place so as not to move the laser paper directly, then I took the towel off and burnished the laser paper. Total burnishing time about two minutes.  While burnishing I could see that  the solvent  was evaporating and the paper becoming opaque again. 

I let the paper dry about 2 minutes for any remaining solvent to evaporate, and then soaked in water.
This paper soaks through real quickly and you can easily see the toner through it when ready for cleaning the board.

I have been really happy with the results I got and this will be my preferred method from now on. Since I only used about 2 eyedroppers full of the mix, the remainder of the quart can of Xylene should last a very long time.

Price for the denatured alcohol and Xylene were each about $7.00 a quart from Home-Depot.  This is much less expensive than getting a laminator.
DuWayne

Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-13 by leeleduc@...

I use Staples Color Laser Paper, 8 1/2" x 11", Glossy, 300/Pack item# 633215. It works well for me with the laser / laminator combination. It Should work with this heatless method. About $15 for 300 sheets.

Staples Color Laser Paper, 8 1\/2\" x 11\", Glossy, 300\/Pack | Staples®
Staples Color Laser Paper, 8 1\/2\" x 11 ...
With the Staples Color Laser Paper, Glossy, 8 1/2' x 11', 300/Pack, you can easily print professional-looking brochures from your own color laser printer.
View on www.staples.com
Preview by Yahoo

 


Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-13 by rolohar@...

Heatless Toner Transfer:

First experiment with this technique:  Very successful.

I used ordinary 70% Isopropyl alcohol with acetone in the ratio given in the YouTube video.

And, I must admit that my technique was very sloppy.

With a bit of refinement, I think I would be inclined to use this method over heat transfer
because it gives very good etch images with an absolute minimum of fuss, bother, and
unreliable results.

Next, I will try 70% Iso with Xylene.

Regards,

Roland F. Harriston, P.D.



From: rolohar@...
To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 10:53:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

Besides:

You are not going to take a bath in the stuff!

At most, you will have a few CC's out in the open, or a few eyedroppers' full.


Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-13 by søren hansen

Pictures!!  :-)

Den 13/01/2016 21.08 skrev "rolohar@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>:
 

Heatless Toner Transfer:

First experiment with this technique:  Very successful.

I used ordinary 70% Isopropyl alcohol with acetone in the ratio given in the YouTube video.

And, I must admit that my technique was very sloppy.

With a bit of refinement, I think I would be inclined to use this method over heat transfer
because it gives very good etch images with an absolute minimum of fuss, bother, and
unreliable results.

Next, I will try 70% Iso with Xylene.

Regards,

Roland F. Harriston, P.D.



From: rolohar@...
To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 10:53:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

Besides:

You are not going to take a bath in the stuff!

At most, you will have a few CC's out in the open, or a few eyedroppers' full.


Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-14 by David Pickering

Hi
My findings to-date are same technique and mix as the chap on YouTube,  using IPA Solvent( Isopropanol), works fine using the wax type paper used in the normal heat transfer technique.
I found that quantity of solution varies  depending what paper etc your using.
Worth mentioning that its not just the PCB that needs to be clean and spotless, The paper also needs to be free of any kind of dirt grease finger/ hand prints etc  and creases, which also applies to heat transfer.
Trying further experiments

Regards
Dave


Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-14 by vk5xgh@...

Greetings all,
I had to add my 2 cents worth. I used a rough and ready mix of about 2/3 methylated spirit and 1/3 of automotive acrylic lacquer thinner (mainly acetone) because these were the closest to requirements that I had on hand. The image was printed on ordinary copy paper with my HP 8150 Laserjet. I was a bit sceptical and so it was a pretty rushed tryout.  I lightly burnished the paper with the back of a spoon as it dried and carefully brushed with an old soft toothbrush to get rid of the last of the paper fibres after soaking in water for about 10 minutes -- Well to my surprise, I got the 2 best boards that I have achieved with any toner transfer setup (and I have tried many different papers and a few different printers) I etched and drilled the boards this morning, The etch was clean enough for the drill to self centre too ! This will be my method for homebrew PCB's from here on --- I might have just been very lucky with the mix of solvents  but I stress that this was a really rough test so the process doesn't look to be too finicky to me -- try it you may just be as happy with the result as I am.

Regards Greg VK5GJ



Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-14 by Mike

Tried the"heatless" toner transfer process using what I could find at home, acetone and rubbing (isopropyl 70% by volume) alcohol. Printed the PCB artwork on standard, white, office paper. Using the 8:3 mix didn't get any transfer to the PCB. Upped the ratio to 8 parts alcohol to 6 parts acetone. Did get a good transfer, but some of the toner came off the board while trying to remove (rubbing) the paper residue left when the paper was pealed off. This was my second try to use the "heatless" toner transfer.

Some things to try is to let the alcohol-acetone saturated paper fully dry on the board (didn't let the paper fully dry the second attempt), let the paper soak in water longer before removing (may put some dish washing soap in the water). Will try to find a more concentrate alcohol to use (will have to adjust the alcohol acetone ratio with a higher alcohol concentrate).

This process looks promising enough to keep experimenting to come up with a mix, process that works for me."

  Mike, K4GMH

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-14 by camillus

HI, You do not need an more concentrated alcohol. All you need to do is experiment with the amount of acetone. It is the acetone that makes the toner sticky. The alcohol is there to dilute the acetone so it does not dissolve the toner completely. 

So you started with 8/3 alcohol/acetone then do a 7/3 and try the transfer again. By changing this ratio you will find a right solution.

succes
cb

On 1/14/2016 10:30:01 AM, Mike k4gmh@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Tried the"heatless" toner transfer process using what I could find at home, acetone and rubbing (isopropyl 70% by volume) alcohol. Printed the PCB artwork on standard, white, office paper. Using the 8:3 mix didn't get any transfer to the PCB. Upped the ratio to 8 parts alcohol to 6 parts acetone. Did get a good transfer, but some of the toner came off the board while trying to remove (rubbing) the paper residue left when the paper was pealed off. This was my second try to use the "heatless" toner transfer.

Some things to try is to let the alcohol-acetone saturated paper fully dry on the board (didn't let the paper fully dry the second attempt), let the paper soak in water longer before removing (may put some dish washing soap in the water). Will try to find a more concentrate alcohol to use (will have to adjust the alcohol acetone ratio with a higher alcohol concentrate).

This process looks promising enough to keep experimenting to come up with a mix, process that works for me."

  Mike, K4GMH

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-14 by rolohar@...

"The alcohol is there to dilute the acetone so it does not dissolve the toner completely."

Correct.

The alcohol acts as an "inhibitor" to the agressive nature of the toner in dissolving the polymer toner.

I'm beginning to believe that any spirit compound that will dissolve the toner will work,
and that any type of alcohol will inhibit the agressive action of the solvent.

Pick the "cocktail" that you like the best, and perfect your technique.

Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
*******************
From: "camillus camillus_blockx@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
To: "Mike k4gmh@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 10:14:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

 

HI, You do not need an more concentrated alcohol. All you need to do is experiment with the amount of acetone. It is the acetone that makes the toner sticky. The alcohol is there to dilute the acetone so it does not dissolve the toner completely. 


So you started with 8/3 alcohol/acetone then do a 7/3 and try the transfer again. By changing this ratio you will find a right solution.

succes
cb

On 1/14/2016 10:30:01 AM, Mike k4gmh@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 


Tried the"heatless" toner transfer process using what I could find at home, acetone and rubbing (isopropyl 70% by volume) alcohol. Printed the PCB artwork on standard, white, office paper. Using the 8:3 mix didn't get any transfer to the PCB. Upped the ratio to 8 parts alcohol to 6 parts acetone. Did get a good transfer, but some of the toner came off the board while trying to remove (rubbing) the paper residue left when the paper was pealed off. This was my second try to use the "heatless" toner transfer.

Some things to try is to let the alcohol-acetone saturated paper fully dry on the board (didn't let the paper fully dry the second attempt), let the paper soak in water longer before removing (may put some dish washing soap in the water). Will try to find a more concentrate alcohol to use (will have to adjust the alcohol acetone ratio with a higher alcohol concentrate).

This process looks promising enough to keep experimenting to come up with a mix, process that works for me."

  Mike, K4GMH




Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-17 by alan00463@...

Thank you, leeleduc for posting this video.    Thank you, DuWayne, for describing your results.    Your timing is perfect for me, as I was just about to buy a laminator for making PCBs.    Now, instead I have bought acetone, alcohol, and will spend the rest of the money on a new toner cartridge.

Re: Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer for PCB making

2016-01-18 by RDHeiliger

Did a few experiments over the weekend.
 
I sanded all boards in this experiment with 400 grit paper with random orbital sander.
Instead of acetone I used lacquer thinner.
        Label on lacquer thinner shows these components
            methyl alcohol, toluene, acetone, ethyl acetate, xylene, methyl ethyl ketone, ethyl benzene, petroleum distillates.
The alcohol I used is fuel grade, percent not listed on can.
 
I tried the mix suggested in another post, 2 parts alcohol 1 part lacquer thinner.
    With cheap 20# copy paper the transfer was very bad, most toner fell off or pealed off with the paper.
    With Hammer mill color laser gloss had excellent transfer but the small holes in via’s partly closed, bleed.
 
I thinned the mix a bit more 3 parts alcohol 1 part lacquer thinner.
    Even worse results with copy paper.
    With color laser gloss got near perfect transfer, at least as good or better than with my laminator, via’s stayed open, perfect.
 
I also tried boards pretreated with lacquer thinner, to form the oxide layer, and not treated. The treated boards seem to do a slightly better but not much.
 
I also notice that by setting the paper type to photo or gloss, and setting the gloss level to best, seemed to put more toner on the paper an got better transfer.
 
I did not so to speak, burnish the boards, but just applied a moderate amount of pressure with the folded up edge of the paper towel used to blot the board. I was worried that too much pressure might smear or widen the small traces.
 
I did a double side board, two 1/16 boards, using the 3 to 1 mix, color laser gloss paper, and got boards as good as any I have ever done with my laminator. Lost one trace right on the edge of the board, think it may have been where I picked up the board with fingers. All the traces down to 0.012 are perfect, even the feed thru between .1 headers where perfect. I struggled with my laminator for a year before I got boards this good! I could even use a non-woven abrasive pad, I use the white ones with no actual abrasive, to clean off the remaining paper, there is very little paper residue left anyway, much less that with my laminator.
 
One trick I use for patching toner that did not transfer. Use an ultra fine sharpie, and draw in the missing section of the trace.Go over a couple times, let it dry in-between passes. If you limit coffee input you can even touch up .012 traces.
 
 
RD