Homebrew PCBs

What are the 'tin salts' used when tin plating... i.e. what is the 
chemiscal involved in a hot solution 50'C disolved tin salt?

Regards,.

Dom

You can purchase this stuff at any decent supply
house. It's dirt cheap and would cost you more to make
it than it would to buy it. One Online site where you
can purchase it is:


http://www.web-tronics.com/printed-circuit-board-supplies.html

They sell it as the product "TINNIT". What an
imaginative name...


Best regards


Marvin Dickens
Alpharetta, Georgia  USA

--- dombaines <dombaines@...> wrote:
> What are the 'tin salts' used when tin plating...
> i.e. what is the 
> chemiscal involved in a hot solution 50'C disolved
> tin salt?



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I bought some of this but have not tried it yet.  Does it work?

thanks
Ted


mpdickens wrote:

>  You can purchase this stuff at any decent supply
> house. It's dirt cheap and would cost you more to make
> it than it would to buy it. One Online site where you
> can purchase it is:
>
>
> http://www.web-tronics.com/printed-circuit-board-supplies.html
>
> They sell it as the product "TINNIT". What an
> imaginative name...
>
>
> Best regards
>
>
> Marvin Dickens
> Alpharetta, Georgia  USA
>
> --- dombaines <dombaines@...> wrote:
> > What are the 'tin salts' used when tin plating...
> > i.e. what is the
> > chemiscal involved in a hot solution 50'C disolved
> > tin salt?
>
>
>
> =====
> Registered Linux User No. 80253
> If you use linux, get counted at:
> http://www.linuxcounter.org
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--
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ah...

Sorry, Not trying to make it... Got to sort out a hazard assesment of 
I want to use it.

Etch... that's easy it's FeCl in Water...

So what is in a simple tin salt mix... I though it would be easy to 
obtain but you'd think I was asking for the crown jewels. I can't 
just say it's got an X on the label unfortunately.

Dom

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, mpdickens <md30022@y...> wrote:

> You can purchase this stuff at any decent supply
> house. It's dirt cheap and would cost you more to make
> it than it would to buy it. One Online site where you
> can purchase it is:
> 
> 
> http://www.web-tronics.com/printed-circuit-board-supplies.html
> 
> They sell it as the product "TINNIT". What an
> imaginative name...
> 
> 
> Best regards
> 
> 
> Marvin Dickens
> Alpharetta, Georgia  USA
> 
> --- dombaines <dombaines@m...> wrote:
> > What are the 'tin salts' used when tin plating...
> > i.e. what is the 
> > chemiscal involved in a hot solution 50'C disolved
> > tin salt?
> 
> 
> 
> =====
> Registered Linux User No. 80253
> If you use linux, get counted at: 
> http://www.linuxcounter.org
> 
> __________________________________
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> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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--- dombaines <dombaines@...> wrote:

> So what is in a simple tin salt mix... 

The Metal Finishing Guidebook lists three formulations
for immersion deposits of tin onto copper, only one
formula is cyanide-free. Here is that formula:

Stannous chloride 3.8 g/L
Thiourea 49.5 g/L 
Sulfuric acid 12 ml/L

Combine the compounds at a temperature of 80-120
degrees Fahrenheit.

The crystals in TINNIT and other similar products are
of a similar chemistry (But, in solid crystal form).
There is simply no other way to do it without using
cyanide salts.


Best regards


Marvin Dickens
Alpharetta, Georgia USA

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--- Ted Huntington <thunting@...> wrote:
> I bought some of this but have not tried it yet. 
> Does it work?

It works. You can expect a layer of tin around 0.0003
to 0.0004 of an inch in thickness depending on the
temperature of the tinning bath, how long the pcb is
in the tinning bath and how clean the board (And
tinning environment is...).

Always clean and degrease the board prior to tinning.
Make sure the tinning environment is clean (Whatever
you have the solution in...) and the temperature of
the tinning bath is reasonable.


Best regards

Marvin Dickens
Alpharetta, Georgia  USA

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In that case the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for the 
product should have all the hazardous information you 
require. I think MSDS's are required by law in many 
countries. Contact the manufacture.

dombaines wrote:

> Ah...
> 
> Sorry, Not trying to make it... Got to sort out a hazard assesment of 
> I want to use it.
> 
> Etch... that's easy it's FeCl in Water...
> 
> So what is in a simple tin salt mix... I though it would be easy to 
> obtain but you'd think I was asking for the crown jewels. I can't 
> just say it's got an X on the label unfortunately.
> 
> Dom
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, mpdickens <md30022@y...> wrote:
> 
>>You can purchase this stuff at any decent supply
>>house. It's dirt cheap and would cost you more to make
>>it than it would to buy it. One Online site where you
>>can purchase it is:
>>
>>
>>http://www.web-tronics.com/printed-circuit-board-supplies.html
>>
>>They sell it as the product "TINNIT". What an
>>imaginative name...
>>
>>
>>Best regards
>>
>>
>>Marvin Dickens
>>Alpharetta, Georgia  USA
>>
>>--- dombaines <dombaines@m...> wrote:
>>
>>>What are the 'tin salts' used when tin plating...
>>>i.e. what is the 
>>>chemiscal involved in a hot solution 50'C disolved
>>>tin salt?
>>
>>
>>
>>=====
>>Registered Linux User No. 80253
>>If you use linux, get counted at: 
>>http://www.linuxcounter.org
>>
>>__________________________________
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
>>http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
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If you need only small sizes of boards you may hot tin them.

I don't like those "you certainly die within a year if you only look at 
this stuff" safety datasheets.

I would rather have uncoated copper, if you protect it with laquer i see no 
disadvantage.


What about electroplating? i mean making negative photoresist and then 
electroplating.
after that remove the resist and etch. Wouldn't this allow for less 
dangerous chemicals
than electroless plating?

st

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:37:03 -0800 (PST), mpdickens <md30022@...> 
wrote:

>
> --- Ted Huntington <thunting@...> wrote:
>> I bought some of this but have not tried it yet. Does it work?
>
> It works. You can expect a layer of tin around 0.0003
> to 0.0004 of an inch in thickness depending on the
> temperature of the tinning bath, how long the pcb is
> in the tinning bath and how clean the board (And
> tinning environment is...).
>
> Always clean and degrease the board prior to tinning.
> Make sure the tinning environment is clean (Whatever
> you have the solution in...) and the temperature of
> the tinning bath is reasonable.
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Marvin Dickens
> Alpharetta, Georgia  USA
>
> =====
> Registered Linux User No. 80253
> If you use linux, get counted at: http://www.linuxcounter.org
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
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>
>
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>
>
>

Wouldn't this
> allow for less 
> dangerous chemicals
> than electroless plating?

Your kidding, right? 

The Metal Finishing Guidebook lists three formulations
for immersion deposits of tin onto copper, only one
formula is free of really nasty stuff. Here is that
formula:


Stannous chloride 3.8 g/L
Thiourea 49.5 g/L 
Sulfuric acid 12 ml/L

Combine the compounds at a temperature of 80-120
degrees Fahrenheit.


The TINNIT crystals are more than likey a solid
formulation of the above because this is the only
formula that is not deadly poisionous. Electroplating
ANYTHING. produces nasty stuff that has to be disposed
of. 

If I were going to plate tin onto a pcb, I'd use the
TINNIT crystals: They are premixed, cheap and not as
hard on the environment as the by-products produced by
electroplating.


Best regards


Marvin Dickens
Alpharetta, Georgia  USA

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An acid sulfate electroplating tin bath is very safe, as it only 
contains sulfuric acid and tin(II) sulfate, plus some proprietary 
non-toxic organic plating additives. Let me know if you want the 
exact bath makeup described on the additive data sheet

There many other tin electroplating baths, which as you say 
contain nasty stuff. This is the reason I chose the sulfuric acid 
tin(II) sulfate bath for plating my PCBs. But of course 
electroplating is not suitable for your application unless you 
can connect every PCB trace to the negative terminal of the power 
supply.

Electroplating solutions are almost everlasting, so there is 
much less disposal than immersion tin. Electroplating also is 
highly predictable and reliable because the quantity of tin 
deposited is directly related to the total electrical charge from 
the power supply. The finish of electroplated tin is much easier 
to control than immersion tin, making it possible to obtain 
bright mirror like finish. In addition, the chemical running 
costs are only tiny fraction, even considering initial bath makeup.
Use immersion only when you cannot make electrical contact with 
the metal.

mpdickens wrote:

>  Wouldn't this
> 
>>allow for less 
>>dangerous chemicals
>>than electroless plating?
> 
> 
> Your kidding, right? 
> 
> The Metal Finishing Guidebook lists three formulations
> for immersion deposits of tin onto copper, only one
> formula is free of really nasty stuff. Here is that
> formula:
> 
> 
> Stannous chloride 3.8 g/L
> Thiourea 49.5 g/L 
> Sulfuric acid 12 ml/L
> 
> Combine the compounds at a temperature of 80-120
> degrees Fahrenheit.
> 
> 
> The TINNIT crystals are more than likey a solid
> formulation of the above because this is the only
> formula that is not deadly poisionous. Electroplating
> ANYTHING. produces nasty stuff that has to be disposed
> of. 
> 
> If I were going to plate tin onto a pcb, I'd use the
> TINNIT crystals: They are premixed, cheap and not as
> hard on the environment as the by-products produced by
> electroplating.
> 
> 
> Best regards
> 
> 
> Marvin Dickens
> Alpharetta, Georgia  USA
> 
> =====
> Registered Linux User No. 80253
> If you use linux, get counted at: 
> http://www.linuxcounter.org
> 
> __________________________________
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> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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> 
>

In article <20031113192840.27723.qmail@...>,
   mpdickens <md30022@...> wrote:

> --- dombaines <dombaines@...> wrote:

> > So what is in a simple tin salt mix... 

> The Metal Finishing Guidebook lists three formulations
> for immersion deposits of tin onto copper, only one
> formula is cyanide-free. Here is that formula:

Thanks for that, do you have a formula for silver plating?

I have some RF boards which are silver plated and I need to copy. Obsolete
equipment and OEM not interested. These are stripline and getting exact
size of original tracks is also proving interesting!

Stuart

-- 
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|__||__)/ __/  \|\ ||_   |   /
|  ||  \\__/\__/| \||__  |  /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ stuartwinsor@...

101 uses for a Pentium: No2 - A greenhouse heater.

Now, tell me who is right?


Marvin Dickens says electroplating tin chemicals are dangerous,
Adam says no.


I didn't think I was kidding.
You know my knoweledge is very poor about chemistry
but i really thought electroLESS plating is much more complicated
and needs much more dangerous chemicals.

I did electroplating (ok, only "copper plating" with coppersulphate)
once and thought i understand the process.


Adam, you are right with "connect every track first", this
would be needed if you etch first.

(I was told this is how they make the gold plating on ISA/PCI and similar 
board edge connectors.
I was told the pcb is initially a bit longer and all pins are shorted
on this extension. after gold plating this small piece is simply cut off.
(you can actually see the ends of the tracks running down to the edge at 
some cards))

BUT if you plate your board BEFORE etching you don't need this.
simply make a NEGATIVE film/exposing/developing and then electroplate.
the tin should only be deposited where there is no resist.

then strip off the resist and etch.
(some etchants don't etch tin, but you can also mask with gold)


I'm not sure if this would result in a reasonably thick tin plating.
or if the surface of the tin would be "ugly" black (this happens if you dip 
solder
in hcl/h2o2 etchant but i think sulphuric acid works)


I would appreciate to know which "salt" is needed for tin plating.
as sayd i used copper sulphate once for copper plating, but have no idea
which salt of tin there is.
Also i wonder which "organic additives" there are. had no idea.


st

gold plating would also be interesting - but the electroplating liquids for 
gold plating
i saw at a electronics supplier were VERY expensive.




On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:14:45 +1100, Adam Seychell 
<adam_seychell@...> wrote:

> An acid sulfate electroplating tin bath is very safe, as it only contains 
> sulfuric acid and tin(II) sulfate, plus some proprietary non-toxic 
> organic plating additives. Let me know if you want the exact bath makeup 
> described on the additive data sheet
>
> There many other tin electroplating baths, which as you say contain nasty 
> stuff. This is the reason I chose the sulfuric acid tin(II) sulfate bath 
> for plating my PCBs. But of course electroplating is not suitable for 
> your application unless you can connect every PCB trace to the negative 
> terminal of the power supply.
>
> Electroplating solutions are almost everlasting, so there is much less 
> disposal than immersion tin. Electroplating also is highly predictable 
> and reliable because the quantity of tin deposited is directly related to 
> the total electrical charge from the power supply. The finish of 
> electroplated tin is much easier to control than immersion tin, making it 
> possible to obtain bright mirror like finish. In addition, the chemical 
> running costs are only tiny fraction, even considering initial bath 
> makeup.
> Use immersion only when you cannot make electrical contact with the 
> metal.
>
>
>

There are a few tin plating baths around, but the one often 
used for PCBs is the tin(II) sulfate sulfuric acid bath. Its 
a tin only plating , i.e. it cannot plate tin/lead alloy 
like fluroborate type baths can do.

All tin plating baths require platting additives to produce 
smooth bright deposits. Without additives the tin will form 
crystals and long thin spikes around the edges of the PCB.

The additives are available from electroplating suppliers. 
The manufacture of the additives will specify the correct 
bath chemistry and conditions. You will have to ask for 
plating additives for a sulfuric acid based tin plating 
bath.  I am using a set of additives from an Australian 
company called R.O.HULL & CO Australian Pty, Ltd
The product is called HULLPLATE SN
There are three additives. Two are "once off" additives for 
bath makeup, and the other is brightener which requires 
regular addition, depending on how much tin plating is being 
done.  The supplier charged me total of AUD$90 for 1 liter 
of each additive. Shelf life on the additives is indefinite.

Bath composition;
                         range             optimum
tin metal               7.5 to 22 g/l      15 g/L
sulfuric acid           140 to 220 g/L     170 g/L
HULLPLATE SN #1         2% vol.
HULLPLATE SN #2         0.5% vol.
HULLPLATE SN (brightener) 0.4% vol.
		
operating conditions:

temperature             10 - 30 \ufffdC
cathode current density  0.5 - 3 A/dm^2   1 A/dm^2
anode current density   0 - 3 A/dm^2


notes:

Dissolved tin metal is in the form of stannous sulfate, 
SnSO4. 1g of SnSO4 = 0.55g of tin
Stannous sulfate is usually sold in a solution with sulfuric 
acid. If you cannot buy small quantities then you can easily 
prepare it from electrolytically dissolving tin anodes 
inside your plating tank. All it requires is a ceramic 
garden pot and your plating tank. I can give those details 
later if you wish. I wrote a web page on how to do it along 
time ago but never put it online.

All stannous solutions are readily oxidized by atmospheric 
oxygen, so solutions should never be air agitated. The 
stannous ion forms insoluble stannic compounds [tin(IV)] 
which makes the solution a milky yellow. Some oxidation is 
unavoidable so all baths turn milky yellow after a few 
weeks. A lid should be kept on the tank when not used. I've 
had my bath 2+ years and its still works perfectly ok.

Adam




Stefan Trethan wrote:

> Now, tell me who is right?
> 
> 
> Marvin Dickens says electroplating tin chemicals are dangerous,
> Adam says no.
> 
> 
> I didn't think I was kidding.
> You know my knoweledge is very poor about chemistry
> but i really thought electroLESS plating is much more complicated
> and needs much more dangerous chemicals.
> 
> I did electroplating (ok, only "copper plating" with coppersulphate)
> once and thought i understand the process.
> 
> 
> Adam, you are right with "connect every track first", this
> would be needed if you etch first.
> 
> (I was told this is how they make the gold plating on ISA/PCI and similar 
> board edge connectors.
> I was told the pcb is initially a bit longer and all pins are shorted
> on this extension. after gold plating this small piece is simply cut off.
> (you can actually see the ends of the tracks running down to the edge at 
> some cards))
> 
> BUT if you plate your board BEFORE etching you don't need this.
> simply make a NEGATIVE film/exposing/developing and then electroplate.
> the tin should only be deposited where there is no resist.
> 
> then strip off the resist and etch.
> (some etchants don't etch tin, but you can also mask with gold)
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if this would result in a reasonably thick tin plating.
> or if the surface of the tin would be "ugly" black (this happens if you dip 
> solder
> in hcl/h2o2 etchant but i think sulphuric acid works)
> 
> 
> I would appreciate to know which "salt" is needed for tin plating.
> as sayd i used copper sulphate once for copper plating, but have no idea
> which salt of tin there is.
> Also i wonder which "organic additives" there are. had no idea.
> 
> 
> st
> 
> gold plating would also be interesting - but the electroplating liquids for 
> gold plating
> i saw at a electronics supplier were VERY expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:14:45 +1100, Adam Seychell 
> <adam_seychell@...> wrote:
> 
> 
>>An acid sulfate electroplating tin bath is very safe, as it only contains 
>>sulfuric acid and tin(II) sulfate, plus some proprietary non-toxic 
>>organic plating additives. Let me know if you want the exact bath makeup 
>>described on the additive data sheet
>>
>>There many other tin electroplating baths, which as you say contain nasty 
>>stuff. This is the reason I chose the sulfuric acid tin(II) sulfate bath 
>>for plating my PCBs. But of course electroplating is not suitable for 
>>your application unless you can connect every PCB trace to the negative 
>>terminal of the power supply.
>>
>>Electroplating solutions are almost everlasting, so there is much less 
>>disposal than immersion tin. Electroplating also is highly predictable 
>>and reliable because the quantity of tin deposited is directly related to 
>>the total electrical charge from the power supply. The finish of 
>>electroplated tin is much easier to control than immersion tin, making it 
>>possible to obtain bright mirror like finish. In addition, the chemical 
>>running costs are only tiny fraction, even considering initial bath 
>>makeup.
>>Use immersion only when you cannot make electrical contact with the 
>>metal.
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
>

Hi,

some testing done with sulfuric acid and normal solder wire as anode
I uploaded a few photo's shown the huge tank and the result :))
http://www.xs4all.nl/~atmel/fotos/album1.html
the 1st result was get cristals on the surface after bagging the
tin in a coffee filter makes much better result
also the voltage as low as 2 volts helps 
i like to use the tin as a resist for etching (in future)
it solder real easy components on so gonna use it as anti oxidize for 
copper (instead of a flux)
just have to hot weld another pvc tank for it
any sugests always welcome
the little red tank is 5 x 5 cm :) filled with dim water and only a 
few drips of acid

Put in lot more acid, make it like 100 g/L. Where are you
getting the acid ?
Solder will be ok for anode, but expect lots of black
looking sludge to form as the lead sulfate formed is
insoluble. Bagging the anode is a good idea.

I assume you will be going to use alkaline ammonia etching
as that's the only etchant compatible with tin metal resist.

Below is the URL to the web page I wrote a long time go 
describing the procedure for preparing a acid tin sulfate 
plating baths.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/electrolyte.html


Adam

roel_cnc wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> some testing done with sulfuric acid and normal solder wire as anode
> I uploaded a few photo's shown the huge tank and the result :))
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~atmel/fotos/album1.html
> the 1st result was get cristals on the surface after bagging the
> tin in a coffee filter makes much better result
> also the voltage as low as 2 volts helps 
> i like to use the tin as a resist for etching (in future)
> it solder real easy components on so gonna use it as anti oxidize for 
> copper (instead of a flux)
> just have to hot weld another pvc tank for it
> any sugests always welcome
> the little red tank is 5 x 5 cm :) filled with dim water and only a 
> few drips of acid 
>   
>  
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
>

roel_cnc wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> some testing done with sulfuric acid and normal solder wire as anode
> I uploaded a few photo's shown the huge tank and the result :))
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~atmel/fotos/album1.html
> the 1st result was get cristals on the surface after bagging the
> tin in a coffee filter makes much better result
> also the voltage as low as 2 volts helps 
> i like to use the tin as a resist for etching (in future)
> it solder real easy components on so gonna use it as anti oxidize for 
> copper (instead of a flux)
> just have to hot weld another pvc tank for it
> any sugests always welcome
> the little red tank is 5 x 5 cm :) filled with dim water and only a 
> few drips of acid 
>   

   Those results look very promising.  Do exactly what you've done and
plate a raw copper board.  Then do the toner iron on.  Then use the
board as the + to plate some junk, to strip the uncovered tin then the
copper.  Then finish etch the small remaining copper in FeCl.  Wipe with
acetone to remove the toner and you should have a nice tin plated etched
board with little fuss.  That would make it well worth having both the
mild sulfuric acid and FeCl3 solutions around.  May still not be worth
the extra time and steps for just test boards, but would be very nice
for long term items.

   May need two plating solutions, since the second will end up
with both copper and tin in it, so would plate both copper and tin the
second time around if it were used for the plating.  Plating just to the
copper board should leave the first with only tin in it.  But a mix may 
not be a problem anyway.  Also I'll try
some silver solder to see if that works, may make an even better finish
with a little silver added instead of just tin.

Alan

OK Sorry to all I'm getting in on this late but ,better late then never
Then again!!!
Any way if what we are trying to do is just plate the trace.
then look here www.digikey.com  in the search punch in part# 182-1010-nd
take a peek it may not be what everybody wants but it may be what some
people need. or want  , or then again ,maybe not!! :-).
I do hope this helps a bit .
regards
victor

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Alan King" <alan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Tin eletroplating


> roel_cnc wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > some testing done with sulfuric acid and normal solder wire as anode
> > I uploaded a few photo's shown the huge tank and the result :))
> > http://www.xs4all.nl/~atmel/fotos/album1.html
> > the 1st result was get cristals on the surface after bagging the
> > tin in a coffee filter makes much better result
> > also the voltage as low as 2 volts helps
> > i like to use the tin as a resist for etching (in future)
> > it solder real easy components on so gonna use it as anti oxidize for
> > copper (instead of a flux)
> > just have to hot weld another pvc tank for it
> > any sugests always welcome
> > the little red tank is 5 x 5 cm :) filled with dim water and only a
> > few drips of acid
> >
>
>    Those results look very promising.  Do exactly what you've done and
> plate a raw copper board.  Then do the toner iron on.  Then use the
> board as the + to plate some junk, to strip the uncovered tin then the
> copper.  Then finish etch the small remaining copper in FeCl.  Wipe with
> acetone to remove the toner and you should have a nice tin plated etched
> board with little fuss.  That would make it well worth having both the
> mild sulfuric acid and FeCl3 solutions around.  May still not be worth
> the extra time and steps for just test boards, but would be very nice
> for long term items.
>
>    May need two plating solutions, since the second will end up
> with both copper and tin in it, so would plate both copper and tin the
> second time around if it were used for the plating.  Plating just to the
> copper board should leave the first with only tin in it.  But a mix may
> not be a problem anyway.  Also I'll try
> some silver solder to see if that works, may make an even better finish
> with a little silver added instead of just tin.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
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>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell 
<adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
> 
> Put in lot more acid, make it like 100 g/L. Where are you
> getting the acid ?
> Solder will be ok for anode, but expect lots of black
> looking sludge to form as the lead sulfate formed is
> insoluble. Bagging the anode is a good idea.
> 
> I assume you will be going to use alkaline ammonia etching
> as that's the only etchant compatible with tin metal resist.
> 
> Below is the URL to the web page I wrote a long time go 
> describing the procedure for preparing a acid tin sulfate 
> plating baths.
> 
> http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/electrolyte.html
> 
> 
> Adam

Hi Adam 
i use normal car battery acid (37%)
As u said on top 100gr/l i think it is then 78mL/L  m i right !

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 16:36:29 +1100
Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@...> wrote:

> 
> Put in lot more acid, make it like 100 g/L. Where are you
> getting the acid ?
> Solder will be ok for anode, but expect lots of black
> looking sludge to form as the lead sulfate formed is
> insoluble. Bagging the anode is a good idea.
> 
> I assume you will be going to use alkaline ammonia etching
> as that's the only etchant compatible with tin metal resist.
> 
> Below is the URL to the web page I wrote a long time go 
> describing the procedure for preparing a acid tin sulfate 
> plating baths.
> 
> http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/electrolyte.html
> 
> 

Your page is awesome, but the links are broken, it points to
C:\etc.. , it would be nice if you correct the links because
I wish to see all the materials you writed...

well then,

i just checked my chemical supplier has tin sulfate in his stock list.
also sulphuric acid would be no problem at all.

BUT i have not the slightest idea where to get the additives.

I read this stuff always concentrates at the point of highest potential, 
preventing plating at this particular point, So you get a even coat
as the additives move around all the time.

just BAD that it isn't something simple.




st

Stefan Trethan wrote:
> well then,
> 
> i just checked my chemical supplier has tin sulfate in his stock list.
> also sulphuric acid would be no problem at all.
> 
> BUT i have not the slightest idea where to get the additives.
> 
> I read this stuff always concentrates at the point of highest potential, 
> preventing plating at this particular point, So you get a even coat
> as the additives move around all the time.
> 
> just BAD that it isn't something simple.

That's basically the mechanism behind plating additives. But 
there is a lot of things going on and all plating additives 
consists of a number of compounds, each specifically doing a 
job, and some are working together. The fact is 
electrochemists don't really know exactly how additives 
work. Developing a new plating additive its an art, not a 
science.

As I said, you buy additives from electroplating suppliers. 
If you cannot find any electroplating suppliers who sell the 
correct acid tin sulfate plating additive, then find a 
business who electroplates tin and ask them who their 
supplier is for the additive they use.

Did you get pricing for the stannous sulfate ? When I was 
quoted AUD$500 for a 25 kg bag, I looked at other options. A 
bit of research and a $5 plant pot solved my problem.

> That's basically the mechanism behind plating additives. But there is a 
> lot of things going on and all plating additives consists of a number of 
> compounds, each specifically doing a job, and some are working together. 
> The fact is electrochemists don't really know exactly how additives work. 
> Developing a new plating additive its an art, not a science.
>
> As I said, you buy additives from electroplating suppliers. If you cannot 
> find any electroplating suppliers who sell the correct acid tin sulfate 
> plating additive, then find a business who electroplates tin and ask them 
> who their supplier is for the additive they use.
>
> Did you get pricing for the stannous sulfate ? When I was quoted AUD$500 
> for a 25 kg bag, I looked at other options. A bit of research and a $5 
> plant pot solved my problem.
>
>

I have no pricing, but i will write a mail and ask the guys..

maybe a good opportunity to ask them if they know where to get the 
additives...


other german supplier lists stannous sulfate at 15eur / kg. these prices 
are pretty close to where i buy, most time my shop is a bit cheaper.


I know it is hard to get chemicals in small quantitys.
I'm glad to have this shop. It is the biggest shop of this kind in Austria 
and it happens
that it is in 5 minute walking distance from my University.
It has split off of a big chemicals supplyer for the industry here, and it
is dedicated for very small quantitys. You can get everything in whichever 
tiny quantity you want.
You don't need to stick to packing units, they weigh how much you want in 
nice bottles or cans.


Another source for solid tin may be these awful plates and vases and 
drinking vessels.
Most of them are ugly and i don't think they are expensive. One may just 
melt the ugly stuff and cast anodes with it.. much easier than finding 
ingots.


regards
st

Stefan Trethan wrote:
> 
> 
> other german supplier lists stannous sulfate at 15eur / kg. these prices 
> are pretty close to where i buy, most time my shop is a bit cheaper.
> 
> 
> I know it is hard to get chemicals in small quantitys.
> I'm glad to have this shop. It is the biggest shop of this kind in Austria 
> and it happens
> that it is in 5 minute walking distance from my University.
> It has split off of a big chemicals supplyer for the industry here, and it
> is dedicated for very small quantitys. You can get everything in whichever 
> tiny quantity you want.
> You don't need to stick to packing units, they weigh how much you want in 
> nice bottles or cans.
> 
> 
> Another source for solid tin may be these awful plates and vases and 
> drinking vessels.
> Most of them are ugly and i don't think they are expensive. One may just 
> melt the ugly stuff and cast anodes with it.. much easier than finding 
> ingots.
> 

I've never seen pure solid tin as plates. Tin is soft so its 
not very good for making things. Try your local chemical 
company for tin metal, if not then plating suppliers or 
metal merchants. I got mine from a metal merchant. They had 
them in various ingots 0.5 to 2 kg. Look up metal suppliers 
in your local business directory. I found trying to find 
supplies is a matter of making enough phone calls and asking 
the right questions. Remember these people are in this line 
of business and would know a lot more than you of what's 
around and who is selling what and where.

Adam.

If this helps
I just ordered a pure tin bar from mcmaster carr industrial supply.

Also I saw no comments on my previous post on this issue with the digikey
link
Now is this totally different then what the link specified???
because that part# was for a silvering kit/powder according to the
instructions you just dampen the corner of a cloth with water then touch the
powder ,then rub the pcb traces with the cloth , and you now have a silver
plating or??? on the board
as far as I know it does the same thing as tinning but no harsh chemicals .
I have not tried it I have spoken to the supplier  (Dynnarart) and he has
explained it to me.
so next time I need to order from digikey or dynaart I will get some.
the cost is $30.00 but from what I can see it will last a long time.
regards
victor


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adam Seychell" <adam_seychell@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Tin eletroplating


>
>
> Stefan Trethan wrote:
> >
> >
> > other german supplier lists stannous sulfate at 15eur / kg. these prices
> > are pretty close to where i buy, most time my shop is a bit cheaper.
> >
> >
> > I know it is hard to get chemicals in small quantitys.
> > I'm glad to have this shop. It is the biggest shop of this kind in
Austria
> > and it happens
> > that it is in 5 minute walking distance from my University.
> > It has split off of a big chemicals supplyer for the industry here, and
it
> > is dedicated for very small quantitys. You can get everything in
whichever
> > tiny quantity you want.
> > You don't need to stick to packing units, they weigh how much you want
in

> > nice bottles or cans.
> >
> >
> > Another source for solid tin may be these awful plates and vases and
> > drinking vessels.
> > Most of them are ugly and i don't think they are expensive. One may just
> > melt the ugly stuff and cast anodes with it.. much easier than finding
> > ingots.
> >
>
> I've never seen pure solid tin as plates. Tin is soft so its
> not very good for making things. Try your local chemical
> company for tin metal, if not then plating suppliers or
> metal merchants. I got mine from a metal merchant. They had
> them in various ingots 0.5 to 2 kg. Look up metal suppliers
> in your local business directory. I found trying to find
> supplies is a matter of making enough phone calls and asking
> the right questions. Remember these people are in this line
> of business and would know a lot more than you of what's
> around and who is selling what and where.
>
> Adam.
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> 
> I've never seen pure solid tin as plates. Tin is soft so its 
> not very good for making things. Try your local chemical 
> company for tin metal, if not then plating suppliers or 
> metal merchants. I got mine from a metal merchant. They had 
> them in various ingots 0.5 to 2 kg. Look up metal suppliers 
> in your local business directory. I found trying to find 
> supplies is a matter of making enough phone calls and asking 
> the right questions. Remember these people are in this line 
> of business and would know a lot more than you of what's 
> around and who is selling what and where.
> 
> Adam.

tin is as i know hard they make tea-pots and ash tray's from it 
we got some things around in da house and already ask me wife for a 
piece to (dis)solve in acid :) (answer -> wil kill me if i try) LOL :)
The reason of here reaction: i already acid a silver earring :)) 

gr. Roel

Bend the ash tray and if you hear a breaking noise like 
sound of wood splitting before it breaks, then you have pure 
tin. If no sound then its a tin alloy.
Tin doesn't dissolve in sulfuric acid and only very slowly 
in hydrochloric acid at room temp.

Adam.

roel_cnc wrote:

>>I've never seen pure solid tin as plates. Tin is soft so its 
>>not very good for making things. Try your local chemical 
>>company for tin metal, if not then plating suppliers or 
>>metal merchants. I got mine from a metal merchant. They had 
>>them in various ingots 0.5 to 2 kg. Look up metal suppliers 
>>in your local business directory. I found trying to find 
>>supplies is a matter of making enough phone calls and asking 
>>the right questions. Remember these people are in this line 
>>of business and would know a lot more than you of what's 
>>around and who is selling what and where.
>>
>>Adam.
> 
> 
> tin is as i know hard they make tea-pots and ash tray's from it 
> we got some things around in da house and already ask me wife for a 
> piece to (dis)solve in acid :) (answer -> wil kill me if i try) LOL :)
> The reason of here reaction: i already acid a silver earring :)) 
> 
> gr. Roel 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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