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4 layer pcbs

4 layer pcbs

2007-11-19 by DJ Delorie

I had this idea for home-brew four layer pcbs, and finally got around
to trying it.  It seems to work, too!

You need a few special items:

* Thinner than usual PCB stock.  I got some 16 mil (1 oz) and 8 mil
  (0.5 oz) SS off eBay.

* Sheets of double-sided tape.  I got some 3M 7953 "membrane switch
  spacer" which is about 4 mil thick.

I etched the four layers separately.  For testing, I just did a grid
of vias of varying sizes and drills, with thermals to the ground and
power layers.

The stackup looks like this:

1/2oz copper
8 mil FR4
   tape
1oz copper
16 mil FR4
   tape
16 mil FR4
1oz copper
   tape
8 mil FR4
1/2oz copper

I included small vias in the corners for registration, but next time I
need to be much more careful about etching and drilling those, as well
as the technique for lining them up.

Anyway...

The theory does like this: You don't use the inner layers for signals,
just power and ground.  That way, you never have to connect both inner
layers together.  Through vias are done as usual; etch, tape up the
board, drill, solder in a wire.  I use wire wrap wire, which fits in a
13 mil hole.  Oh - the drill "press" I built works great, I drilled a
couple HUNDRED 13 mil holes on this test board, and the only bit I
broke was the one I dropped on the floor.
http://www.delorie.com/pcb/dremel-stand/

But with the above stack, you get blind vias almost for free!  For
this, drill ONLY the outer layer, and make sure your inner etch
doesn't etch where you'd drill - you want a solid land under the via.
The hole needs to be big enough to get your iron in there; for mine
that means a 22 mil drill and 42 mil copper.  You put the tape on the
outer layer, leaving the other backing on, and drill out all your
blind vias.  Then peel off the backing and tape the layer on.  Now,
poke the iron into the hold and solder, and the solder jumpers the two
layers.

To connect to the opposite power layer (i.e. connect layers 1+3 or
2+4), just drill a bigger hole on the other side (44 mil in my case)
before taping to expose the copper, then drill your via hole from the
other side after taping for the wire.

The 8 mil clad is thin enough to be see-through, so taping those to
the inner layers is pretty easy, just line them up and press.  Taping
the two halves together is harder, I think next time I'll drill the
registration holes *after* taping up the halves, as it's more
important to line up the outer layers with each other than to line
them up with the inner layers (through vias have smaller annuluses).

The resulting stack measures 57 mil thick (the math says 64), but
still slightly flexible, unlike a the rigid board you get when you
epoxy the layers together.

You could use standard 32 mil DS for the inners if you already have
experience getting the two sides to line up.  Just tape on the extra
layers afterwards.  I wanted to try it this way to see if it was
easier to line up the sides, and to see if I got better results from
my laminator with thinner stock.

laser printing onto silkscreen material

2007-11-19 by agscal -AGSCalabrese

I apologize if this is a well worn topic.

I have no information about this.  Has anyone
put silkcreening material though a laser printer and
direct printed to it *

If this is possible, I can use it to do low resolution
PCBs and silkscreen panels.

thanks for any response

Gus

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] 4 layer pcbs

2007-11-20 by Stefan Trethan

Nice drill!

Not sure i can correctly envision your 4-layer method.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Nov 19, 2007 10:21 PM, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
> I had this idea for home-brew four layer pcbs, and finally got around
> to trying it.  It seems to work, too!
>
> You need a few special items:
>
> * Thinner than usual PCB stock.  I got some 16 mil (1 oz) and 8 mil
>  (0.5 oz) SS off eBay.
>
> * Sheets of double-sided tape.  I got some 3M 7953 "membrane switch
>  spacer" which is about 4 mil thick.
>
> I etched the four layers separately.  For testing, I just did a grid
> of vias of varying sizes and drills, with thermals to the ground and
> power layers.
>
> The stackup looks like this:
>
> 1/2oz copper
> 8 mil FR4
>   tape
> 1oz copper
> 16 mil FR4
>   tape
> 16 mil FR4
> 1oz copper
>   tape
> 8 mil FR4
> 1/2oz copper
>
> I included small vias in the corners for registration, but next time I
> need to be much more careful about etching and drilling those, as well
> as the technique for lining them up.
>
> Anyway...
>
> The theory does like this: You don't use the inner layers for signals,
> just power and ground.  That way, you never have to connect both inner
> layers together.  Through vias are done as usual; etch, tape up the
> board, drill, solder in a wire.  I use wire wrap wire, which fits in a
> 13 mil hole.  Oh - the drill "press" I built works great, I drilled a
> couple HUNDRED 13 mil holes on this test board, and the only bit I
> broke was the one I dropped on the floor.
> http://www.delorie.com/pcb/dremel-stand/
>
> But with the above stack, you get blind vias almost for free!  For
> this, drill ONLY the outer layer, and make sure your inner etch
> doesn't etch where you'd drill - you want a solid land under the via.
> The hole needs to be big enough to get your iron in there; for mine
> that means a 22 mil drill and 42 mil copper.  You put the tape on the
> outer layer, leaving the other backing on, and drill out all your
> blind vias.  Then peel off the backing and tape the layer on.  Now,
> poke the iron into the hold and solder, and the solder jumpers the two
> layers.
>
> To connect to the opposite power layer (i.e. connect layers 1+3 or
> 2+4), just drill a bigger hole on the other side (44 mil in my case)
> before taping to expose the copper, then drill your via hole from the
> other side after taping for the wire.
>
> The 8 mil clad is thin enough to be see-through, so taping those to
> the inner layers is pretty easy, just line them up and press.  Taping
> the two halves together is harder, I think next time I'll drill the
> registration holes *after* taping up the halves, as it's more
> important to line up the outer layers with each other than to line
> them up with the inner layers (through vias have smaller annuluses).
>
> The resulting stack measures 57 mil thick (the math says 64), but
> still slightly flexible, unlike a the rigid board you get when you
> epoxy the layers together.
>
> You could use standard 32 mil DS for the inners if you already have
> experience getting the two sides to line up.  Just tape on the extra
> layers afterwards.  I wanted to try it this way to see if it was
> easier to line up the sides, and to see if I got better results from
> my laminator with thinner stock.
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] 4 layer pcbs

2007-11-20 by DJ Delorie

"Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...> writes:
> Not sure i can correctly envision your 4-layer method.

The results, or the assembly method, or the vias?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] 4 layer pcbs

2007-11-20 by Stefan Trethan

Well, all of the above really.

I don't understand how you can solder the VIAs in between the boards,
for example.

Maybe you can like sketch a cross section?

Thanks

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 20 Nov 2007 10:37:07 -0500, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
> "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...> writes:
> > Not sure i can correctly envision your 4-layer method.
>
> The results, or the assembly method, or the vias?
>
>

Re: laser printing onto silkscreen material

2007-11-20 by Steve

Please don't start a thread by responding to another thread. Somehow
Yahoogroups links it in the old thread, even though you have changed
the subject line and erased the old message. Presumably some header is
still there.

Anyway.... That isn't how silkscreening works. You print a photomask,
usually onto vellum because it works better than using transparencies.
Then expose the screen under it, and wash out.

You will have to find some very fine screen to do this. Standard
screen for screenprinting is fairly coarse.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, agscal -AGSCalabrese
<agscal@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I apologize if this is a well worn topic.
> 
> I have no information about this.  Has anyone
> put silkcreening material though a laser printer and
> direct printed to it *
> 
> If this is possible, I can use it to do low resolution
> PCBs and silkscreen panels.
> 
> thanks for any response
> 
> Gus
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] 4 layer pcbs

2007-11-20 by DJ Delorie

"Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...> writes:
> I don't understand how you can solder the VIAs in between the boards,
> for example.
> 
> Maybe you can like sketch a cross section?

I'll try...  = is copper, - is some other boundary, # is solder, W is
wire, copper marked with * is drilled before taping layers together:

Through via:
               #####W#####                  
=================== W ====================== signal
                  | W |                      8 mil FR4
==========--======= W =======--============= ground
                  | W |                      16 mil FR4
------------------- W ---------------------- (tape between boards)
                  | W |                      16 mil FR4
==========--======= W =======--============= power
                  | W |                      8 mil FR4
=================== W ====================== signal
               #####W#####                  

Blind via:
           ###################              
=============== ######### ================== *
              | ######### |                 
============================================
                                            
--------------------------------------------
                                            
============================================
                                            
============================================
                                            

Far-plane via:
               #####W#####                  
=================== W ======================
                  | W |                     
==========--======= W =======--=============
                  | W |                     
------------------- W ----------------------
                  | W |                     
=================== W ======================
          |    #####W#####      |           
===========                     ============ *

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] 4 layer pcbs

2007-11-20 by Stefan Trethan

Ah, now i think i get it.

You only connect the via to the outer layers, so you can solder, not
to the layers in between. If you want to connect  to the middle layers
you drill a large hole for soldering access. Interesting idea.
But can you really gain much over using wire links? This sounds like lotsa work.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 20 Nov 2007 12:59:04 -0500, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
> "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...> writes:
> > I don't understand how you can solder the VIAs in between the boards,
> > for example.
> >
> > Maybe you can like sketch a cross section?
>
> I'll try...  = is copper, - is some other boundary, # is solder, W is
> wire, copper marked with * is drilled before taping layers together:
>
> Through via:
>               #####W#####
> =================== W ====================== signal
>                  | W |                      8 mil FR4
> ==========--======= W =======--============= ground
>                  | W |                      16 mil FR4
> ------------------- W ---------------------- (tape between boards)
>                  | W |                      16 mil FR4
> ==========--======= W =======--============= power
>                  | W |                      8 mil FR4
> =================== W ====================== signal
>               #####W#####
>
> Blind via:
>           ###################
> =============== ######### ================== *
>              | ######### |
> ============================================
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> ============================================
>
> ============================================
>
>
> Far-plane via:
>               #####W#####
> =================== W ======================
>                  | W |
> ==========--======= W =======--=============
>                  | W |
> ------------------- W ----------------------
>                  | W |
> =================== W ======================
>          |    #####W#####      |
> ===========                     ============ *
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] 4 layer pcbs

2007-11-20 by DJ Delorie

"Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...> writes:
> But can you really gain much over using wire links? This sounds like
> lotsa work.

The big advantage is that I don't have to route power and ground all
over the place.  You do have to think about each design and decide if
it's worth the extra effort.  But then, you can do two-layer boards
this way, by taping two SS boards together, if you have a hard time
lining up the mask for etching.

And it's not that much more work.  I panelize the two sides onto one
print, so I only have two panels to etch (inners and outers), and
doing two isn't much more work than doing one.  The blind vias are
easier to solder-blob than the regular vias are to through-wire.

The thinner clad is a LOT easier to cut, too.

laser printing onto silkscreen material

2007-11-20 by Gus S Calabrese

I apologize for causing problems with linking.
( Although it is not obvious that there would be a linking problem )

Silkscreening means putting a mask on a silkscreen and squeezing ink
through it to reproduce an image.
If I can somehow use a laser to print to the screen and then I squeeze
ink through the screen  .... am I not silkscreening *

Gus Calabrese

On Nov 20, 2007, at 10:08 AM, Steve wrote:

Please don't start a thread by responding to another thread. Somehow
Yahoogroups links it in the old thread, even though you have changed
the subject line and erased the old message. Presumably some header is
still there.

Anyway.... That isn't how silkscreening works. You print a photomask,
usually onto vellum because it works better than using transparencies.
Then expose the screen under it, and wash out.

You will have to find some very fine screen to do this. Standard
screen for screenprinting is fairly coarse.

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] laser printing onto silkscreen material

2007-11-21 by Herbert E. Plett

Yahoogroups DOES include a thread code in the normally
invisible header!

You cannot laser print the screen because it has to be
tensed on the frame and it will surely melt in the printer
anyway and you can't print on metal.
I think there is a chance if you TT the negative image to
the screen if you can manage the temperatures.
The usual plastic screen is made of nylon that melts (like
ice into water) at abt. 205C (400F) and the toner softens
(does not totally melt) at 180C (356F). So there is a
chance...
If you use a metal screen, then usual TT should work fine,
very good indeed.


--- Gus S Calabrese <agscal@...> wrote:

> I apologize for causing problems with linking.
> ( Although it is not obvious that there would be a
> linking problem )
> 
> Silkscreening means putting a mask on a silkscreen and
> squeezing ink
> through it to reproduce an image.
> If I can somehow use a laser to print to the screen and
> then I squeeze
> ink through the screen  .... am I not silkscreening *
> 
> Gus Calabrese



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better sports nut!  Let your teams follow you 
with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ

Re: laser printing onto silkscreen material

2007-11-21 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Gus S Calabrese" <agscal@...>
wrote:
>
> I apologize for causing problems with linking.
> ( Although it is not obvious that there would be a linking problem )

That's why it's the first paragraph in the Monthly.txt file that gets
sent when you join, and each month. I agree that it is not obvious.

Messages and threads:
Please do NOT start a new thread by replying to another message. Even
if you change the subject line completely and trim all the original
messages off, there is information in the hidden header that
Yahoogroups detects and then lists it as if it were part of another
thread. To start a new thread, start a new message to the list address.
homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com
 
> Silkscreening means putting a mask on a silkscreen and squeezing ink
> through it to reproduce an image.
> If I can somehow use a laser to print to the screen and then I squeeze
> ink through the screen  .... am I not silkscreening *

Yes, I know what silkscreening is. The mavens will correct you, as
they have me many times, and tell you that since they don't use silk
anymore it is more correctly called screen printing.

Toner is quite inflexible, it doesn't crack off paper because it bonds
to it so it may develop cracks while screenprinting. I doubt it would
fill in the gaps very well. Sticking to whatever is backing the screen
would be an issue. So would temperature as screening is now done with
a plastic based screen.

But don't let me stop you! Lots of people expressed caveats about
scratch-'n-etch, direct inkjet printing, homebrew CNC, etc. and all
have come about.

You might check the forum at http://www.screenprinters.net

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: laser printing onto silkscreen material

2007-11-21 by agscal -AGSCalabrese

Steve   Thanks for the additional information
Gus


On Nov 21, 2007, at 9:58 AM, Steve wrote:

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Gus S Calabrese" <agscal@...>
wrote:
 >
 > I apologize for causing problems with linking.
 > ( Although it is not obvious that there would be a linking problem )

That's why it's the first paragraph in the Monthly.txt file that gets
sent when you join, and each month. I agree that it is not obvious.

Messages and threads:
Please do NOT start a new thread by replying to another message. Even
if you change the subject line completely and trim all the original
messages off, there is information in the hidden header that
Yahoogroups detects and then lists it as if it were part of another
thread. To start a new thread, start a new message to the list address.
homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com

 > Silkscreening means putting a mask on a silkscreen and squeezing ink
 > through it to reproduce an image.
 > If I can somehow use a laser to print to the screen and then I  
squeeze
 > ink through the screen .... am I not silkscreening *

Yes, I know what silkscreening is. The mavens will correct you, as
they have me many times, and tell you that since they don't use silk
anymore it is more correctly called screen printing.

Toner is quite inflexible, it doesn't crack off paper because it bonds
to it so it may develop cracks while screenprinting. I doubt it would
fill in the gaps very well. Sticking to whatever is backing the screen
would be an issue. So would temperature as screening is now done with
a plastic based screen.

But don't let me stop you! Lots of people expressed caveats about
scratch-'n-etch, direct inkjet printing, homebrew CNC, etc. and all
have come about.

You might check the forum at http://www.screenprinters.net

Steve Greenfield






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] laser printing onto silkscreen material

2007-11-21 by agscal -AGSCalabrese

>>
>>
>> You cannot laser print the screen because it has to be
>> tensed on the frame and it will surely melt in the printer
>> anyway and you can't print on metal.
>> I think there is a chance if you TT the negative image to
>> the screen if you can manage the temperatures.
>> The usual plastic screen is made of nylon that melts (like
>> ice into water) at abt. 205C (400F) and the toner softens
>> (does not totally melt) at 180C (356F). So there is a
>> chance...
>> If you use a metal screen, then usual TT should work fine,
>> very good indeed.
>>















Do you know of someone who has done TT to a metal screen *
Thanks for the information.

My first attempt to laser print to a screen resulted in the toner  
being transferred.
the toner was not heated enough and is dust on the screen. And some  
of toner
passed through the screen onto the paper it was taped to.

My first attempt to ink jet print to a screen resulted in the image  
being transferred.
The ink did not fill the screen adequately.  Perhaps multiple passes  
would work.

I will put some images of my first experiment up at http://oh-god.com/ 
silkscreen


>
>>
>> --- Gus S Calabrese <agscal@...> wrote:
>>
>> > I apologize for causing problems with linking.
>> > ( Although it is not obvious that there would be a
>> > linking problem )
>> >
>> > Silkscreening means putting a mask on a silkscreen and
>> > squeezing ink
>> > through it to reproduce an image.
>> > If I can somehow use a laser to print to the screen and
>> > then I squeeze
>> > ink through the screen .... am I not silkscreening *
>> >
>> > Gus Calabrese
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: laser printing onto silkscreen material

2007-11-22 by Thomas P. Gootee

It's not exactly what the OP was after, but, at
http://www.cbridge.com , they have a photo-sensitive screen
product that can make a screen-printing screen, directly
from laser-printed artwork (or any black-and-white artwork).

I think the relevant product name is something like PhotoEZ
HiRes.  I have it here but never got around to trying it. 
The HiRes version is supposedly able to accurately reproduce
text down to 4-point size.  I don't remember the price of
the starter kit that I bought.  But it was fairly cheap.

- Tom Gootee

http://www.fullnet.com/~tomg/index.html

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