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inkjet printing

inkjet printing

2006-07-14 by Stefan Trethan

How do i reduce the amount of ink used?
I still have some puddling!

I tried printing grey, but then printing a gradient image from black to  
white it will be full on black to a distance and then full on white. I  
have tried using the brightness/contrast setting in the driver with the  
same effect.
Why?


Also, i notice the parking pad is full of ink/water each time. i have  
disabled the vacuum pump to prevent all ink running off, and manually pull  
the pad dry with a syringe before printing. It is easy to prime or clean a  
printhead without the pump, with the syringe. But i do not think the ink  
should run down into the parking pad normally?

I want to get this to work perfectly, today ;-)

Any suggestions on how to solve the puddling issue? IMO there is simply  
too much ink applied, how do i get it to make smaller droplets? (the 84  
does have this capability).

thanks

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing

2006-07-14 by Volkan Sahin

Stefan, 
 I saw some puddling when the board is not clean enough and to avoid it I used wetting agent. I just did a few tests it worked for me. 
 I used automobile break fluid as a wetting agent. Coat cleaned pcb with very thin film of break fluid and wipe it several times completely with paper towel. Set printer to minimum ink amount and then print.   
  
 Volkan  
  
 ...Any suggestions on how to solve the puddling issue?

Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-14 by derekhawkins

>Any suggestions on how to solve the puddling issue?

The transparencies/fine (paper/quality) setting should use the least 
amount of ink. Don't use any of the Photo media settings. Epson's 
inkjet transparencies are just standard film with a very thin absorbent 
layer on one side that scrubs off quite easily with water. However, 
it's the consistency and absorbency of this layer that makes them so 
good compared to others.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-14 by Stefan Trethan

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:40:57 +0200, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

>
> The transparencies/fine (paper/quality) setting should use the least
> amount of ink. Don't use any of the Photo media settings. Epson's
> inkjet transparencies are just standard film with a very thin absorbent
> layer on one side that scrubs off quite easily with water. However,
> it's the consistency and absorbency of this layer that makes them so
> good compared to others.


The transparency setting does not use any black ink.

I was surprised by that as well, but i tried all settings and transparency  
mixes black from the colors instead. This is the only setting that does  
this.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing

2006-07-14 by Stefan Trethan

Hmm, i wonder how you get your ideas... i would never have thought of that.

But i do not think the wetting is a problem. With the puddling it will wet  
the whole area, only the puddles pull in the ink from the edges. They  
don't pull it away completely, but it gets too thin to resist properly. If  
it would use just a little less ink it would not puddle and pull any ink.
Still- worth a try for sure that breaking fluid.

I added some black ink to the yellow so the effect will be seen on photos.  
I tried making photos but it is impossible to see with yellow only in the  
picture. Must make some now...

thanks

ST


On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:28:55 +0200, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...>  
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Stefan,
>  I saw some puddling when the board is not clean enough and to avoid it  
> I used wetting agent. I just did a few tests it worked for me.
>  I used automobile break fluid as a wetting agent. Coat cleaned pcb with  
> very thin film of break fluid and wipe it several times completely with  
> paper towel. Set printer to minimum ink amount and then print.
> Volkan

Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-14 by derekhawkins

>The transparency setting does not use any black ink.

Yeah, Volkan noted this too, much to Fenrir's surprise. But it's 
printer dependent, the dye based R200, R300 series will use black ink 
only for transparencies if you so choose.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing

2006-07-14 by JanRwl@AOL.COM

In a message dated 7/14/2006 11:51:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
stefan_trethan@... writes:

Any  suggestions on how to solve the puddling issue? IMO there is simply   
too much ink applied, how do i get it to make smaller droplets? (the  84  
does have this capability).



Can you change from "Normal" to "Draft" setting in printer  driver?  I have 
NO clue what this actually does; whether it narrows the  pulse-width, or 
reduces the "pulse-count" on a string of pulses, or what.   In a Word application, 
"Draft" reduces the amount of ink "spit" at the paper  considerably.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-14 by Stefan Trethan

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 20:54:29 +0200, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

>
> Yeah, Volkan noted this too, much to Fenrir's surprise. But it's
> printer dependent, the dye based R200, R300 series will use black ink
> only for transparencies if you so choose.


Well, for the C84 it doesn't allow you to choose black only for  
transparencies. Also not for glossy photo or durabright paper, although it  
will use black ink there. I've actually found one durabright paper setting  
that seemed not to use any ink at all (i believe it was with the microwave  
setting off), of course it delivered only a blank output. So the settings  
are not entirely thought through..

I wish someone made a printer driver where you could select DPI, ink  
density, printing speed, and adjust all colors/black separately. That  
would be much easier than dealing with the many paper and quality settings  
that do not tell you the actual physical settings.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing

2006-07-14 by Stefan Trethan

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 21:32:39 +0200, <JanRwl@...> wrote:

>
> Can you change from "Normal" to "Draft" setting in printer  driver?  I  
> have
> NO clue what this actually does; whether it narrows the  pulse-width, or
> reduces the "pulse-count" on a string of pulses, or what.   In a Word  
> application,
> "Draft" reduces the amount of ink "spit" at the paper  considerably.


This feature is print quality on this printer, and a "fast" setting as  
well. If you reduct the quality to much it will show bands of ink that  
don't link up, i guess on paper that wicks together.

ST

Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-14 by derekhawkins

>Well, for the C84 it doesn't allow you to choose black only for
>transparencies.

Neither does the C86, the C88 doesn't even have a transparency option. 
BTW, you can download any Epson IJ driver and install it to see all the 
driver options. This is a good thing to do if you plan on buying one.

>I wish someone made a printer driver where you could select DPI, ink
>density, printing speed, and adjust all colors/black separately.

The better Epsons have that. DPI is shown next to each quality option. 
There are ink density, drying time (essentially print speed) and 
individual color sliders.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>

Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-15 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
...
> Also, i notice the parking pad is full of ink/water each time. i have  
> disabled the vacuum pump to prevent all ink running off, and
manually pull  
> the pad dry with a syringe before printing. It is easy to prime or
clean a  
> printhead without the pump, with the syringe. But i do not think the
ink  
> should run down into the parking pad normally?

The park pad -should- always be moist, if it weren't then the heads
would tend to dry and clog.

If it is full, then there is something else wrong. Didn't you put a
bulk ink system on this? The tanks may be sitting too high, or filled
incorrectly. If not a bulk ink system, you may have either filled
incorrectly or haven't gotten 100% sealed on the ink fill holes.

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-15 by Stefan Trethan

On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 21:54:03 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> The park pad -should- always be moist, if it weren't then the heads
> would tend to dry and clog.
> If it is full, then there is something else wrong. Didn't you put a
> bulk ink system on this? The tanks may be sitting too high, or filled
> incorrectly. If not a bulk ink system, you may have either filled
> incorrectly or haven't gotten 100% sealed on the ink fill holes.
> Steve Greenfield


I have put spongeless carts on this, not a CIS.
The silicone stoppers are very likely airtight...

What could have happened is that i didn't raise the park station the  
identically same amount as the head, would this cause this?
I'd assume the spring under the pad would prevent any problems there...

The spongless carts would be an obvious place to seek fault with, but i  
believe they are fairly standard items.
Also, i had all the ink leak out of the cart, twice (=each time i  
refilled) with the old sponged carts...

Do i need to observe something when filling those carts?

ST

Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-15 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> Still- worth a try for sure that breaking fluid.

Brake fluid.

> I added some black ink to the yellow so the effect will be seen on
photos.  
> I tried making photos but it is impossible to see with yellow only
in the  
> picture. Must make some now...

Use a blue LED flashlight, and yellow looks dark.

Steve Greenfield

Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-17 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 21:54:03 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> > The park pad -should- always be moist, if it weren't then the heads
> > would tend to dry and clog.
> > If it is full, then there is something else wrong. Didn't you put a
> > bulk ink system on this? The tanks may be sitting too high, or filled
> > incorrectly. If not a bulk ink system, you may have either filled
> > incorrectly or haven't gotten 100% sealed on the ink fill holes.
> > Steve Greenfield
> 
> 
> I have put spongeless carts on this, not a CIS.
> The silicone stoppers are very likely airtight...

If they are not, it will cause just these symptoms of wet park station
and ink running out.

> What could have happened is that i didn't raise the park station the  
> identically same amount as the head, would this cause this?
> I'd assume the spring under the pad would prevent any problems there...

That is possible, depends on how high you raised it. It isn't designed
with this in mind, after all, however I don't see how it could cause
theink to leak or the park station to always be wet.

> The spongless carts would be an obvious place to seek fault with,
but i  
> believe they are fairly standard items.
> Also, i had all the ink leak out of the cart, twice (=each time i  
> refilled) with the old sponged carts...

Hm. That is strange, almost like something in the park station or on
the bottom of the heads is wicking ink out.

> Do i need to observe something when filling those carts?

The fill hole -must- be absolutely sealed airtight. Don't try to fill
to the absolute tip-top.

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-18 by Stefan Trethan

On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 05:31:02 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>> I have put spongeless carts on this, not a CIS.
>> The silicone stoppers are very likely airtight...
> If they are not, it will cause just these symptoms of wet park station
> and ink running out.
>
>> What could have happened is that i didn't raise the park station the
>> identically same amount as the head, would this cause this?
>> I'd assume the spring under the pad would prevent any problems there...
> That is possible, depends on how high you raised it. It isn't designed
> with this in mind, after all, however I don't see how it could cause
> theink to leak or the park station to always be wet.
>
>> The spongless carts would be an obvious place to seek fault with,
> but i
>> believe they are fairly standard items.
>> Also, i had all the ink leak out of the cart, twice (=each time i
>> refilled) with the old sponged carts...
> Hm. That is strange, almost like something in the park station or on
> the bottom of the heads is wicking ink out.
>
>> Do i need to observe something when filling those carts?
> The fill hole -must- be absolutely sealed airtight. Don't try to fill
> to the absolute tip-top.


Steve, you were right, in a way. There was a leak on top of the cartridge.
But not the stopper, i punctured the plastic membrane inside the cart with  
the syringe needle.

When filling it up i was worried about puncturing the plastic membrane on  
the one side of the cart which i knew was there, so i pointed the needle  
towards the other, seemingly solid plastic, side of the cartridge. Yea  
right. There's a plastic membrane on this side as well. I noticed the  
puncture after i took the cart out and removed the ink to try another  
cart. One could see the ink bloom out under the hard plastic cover between  
it and the membrane. I took off the plastic cover and fixed the puncture  
with a piece of sticky tape.

I was retting really suspicious about that leak after moving the head to  
the center for inspection and finding there are large droplets forming on  
the nozzles, quite quickly. Seems the parking pad actually held the ink in  
otherwise all would have leaked out.


I do not know yet why the sponged carts were emptied though.

Things are looking up now, made another experiment, see another post.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing

2006-07-18 by Stefan Trethan

Volkan, the breaking fluid indeed works!
I'm amazed, and stumped how you worked that one out.

No more puddling at all - looks great. Now i hope the breaking fluid will  
not hamper curing or etching - but i don't expect since everything you  
suggest seems to work ;-)

Test PCB next. Hopefully this time it finally works.

ST






On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:28:55 +0200, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...>  
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Stefan,
>  I saw some puddling when the board is not clean enough and to avoid it  
> I used wetting agent. I just did a few tests it worked for me.
>  I used automobile break fluid as a wetting agent. Coat cleaned pcb with  
> very thin film of break fluid and wipe it several times completely with  
> paper towel. Set printer to minimum ink amount and then print.
> Volkan

Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-18 by lcdpublishing

That is just so strange.  Volkan is indeed demonstrating that he is 
a crafty fellow!  Brake fluid, what the heck!  For a wetting agent, 
that would have been the last thing I would have tried.

As another possiblity for a wetting agent, if someone out there is 
trying this and wears contact lenses, I believe one of the chemicals 
used to clean or rinse them is a wetting agent.  It's been nearly 40 
years since I tried wearing contacts and for some reason I 
remembered this information about them.

Brake fluid - I am going to be pondering that one for a while!

Chris



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Volkan, the breaking fluid indeed works!
> I'm amazed, and stumped how you worked that one out.
> 
> No more puddling at all - looks great. Now i hope the breaking 
fluid will  
> not hamper curing or etching - but i don't expect since everything 
you  
> suggest seems to work ;-)
> 
> Test PCB next. Hopefully this time it finally works.
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:28:55 +0200, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...>  
> wrote:
> 
> > Stefan,
> >  I saw some puddling when the board is not clean enough and to 
avoid it  
> > I used wetting agent. I just did a few tests it worked for me.
> >  I used automobile break fluid as a wetting agent. Coat cleaned 
pcb with  
> > very thin film of break fluid and wipe it several times 
completely with  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > paper towel. Set printer to minimum ink amount and then print.
> > Volkan
>

Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-18 by mycroft2152

The active ingredient in Brake fluid is a glycol, as per the MSDS 
(Material Safety Data Sheet):

http://www.warcopro.com/spanish/pages/brakefluid-pdf.html

Glycols are used in may commercial products and even foods. Look for 
Propylene or ethylene glycol in the ingredient list.

Antifreeze is another good source, but has other chemicals in it.

Glyceerine is a close cousin and should aslo work.

Congrats to Volcan for finding a way to reduce the surface tension 
in the ink by chemical priming the copper. 

Theoretically, you could add the glycol to the ink itself.

Myc



 --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing" 
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> That is just so strange.  Volkan is indeed demonstrating that he 
is 
> a crafty fellow!  Brake fluid, what the heck!  For a wetting 
agent, 
> that would have been the last thing I would have tried.
> 
> As another possiblity for a wetting agent, if someone out there is 
> trying this and wears contact lenses, I believe one of the 
chemicals 
> used to clean or rinse them is a wetting agent.  It's been nearly 
40 
> years since I tried wearing contacts and for some reason I 
> remembered this information about them.
> 
> Brake fluid - I am going to be pondering that one for a while!
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
> <stefan_trethan@> wrote:
> >
> > Volkan, the breaking fluid indeed works!
> > I'm amazed, and stumped how you worked that one out.
> > 
> > No more puddling at all - looks great. Now i hope the breaking 
> fluid will  
> > not hamper curing or etching - but i don't expect since 
everything 
> you  
> > suggest seems to work ;-)
> > 
> > Test PCB next. Hopefully this time it finally works.
> > 
> > ST
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:28:55 +0200, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@>  
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > Stefan,
> > >  I saw some puddling when the board is not clean enough and to 
> avoid it  
> > > I used wetting agent. I just did a few tests it worked for me.
> > >  I used automobile break fluid as a wetting agent. Coat 
cleaned 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> pcb with  
> > > very thin film of break fluid and wipe it several times 
> completely with  
> > > paper towel. Set printer to minimum ink amount and then print.
> > > Volkan
> >
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing

2006-07-18 by Volkan Sahin

Stefan,
That's great. Don't worry about etching it will evaporate while curing without leaving any residue.
Good luck.
Volkan

..i hope the breaking fluid will  
not hamper curing or etching

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing

2006-07-18 by Lez

Brake fluid evaporates?

At what temps?

I know many an ex-wife who will tell you it makes an excellent paint
stripper so how it helps ink is beyond my imagination!

we are on about the same product are we not we, dot 3 / 4 / 5 fluid?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing

2006-07-18 by Stefan Trethan

I shouldn't have reported good success so soon.
The first print with the break fluid went fantastic . well, the second  
really, the first i didn't wipe it away and the ink ran out. But the  
second print was so perfect i was convinced this break fluid thing is the  
solution. Then i tried a PCB pattern and it puddled again. damn. i managed  
to reproduce the first test square again a second time after a few tries,  
but not as good as the initial one (which i kept for comparision), i do  
not know why it does not work most of the time.

I will have to try some more.

ST

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:13:54 +0200, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...>  
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Stefan,
> That's great. Don't worry about etching it will evaporate while curing  
> without leaving any residue.
> Good luck.
> Volkan

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing

2006-07-18 by Volkan Sahin

I have used Pennzoil  DOT 3 Brake Fluid. I think its boiling point was around 400-450F.  You can find its datasheet from their web.
Don't forget to use this product in a well ventilated place. 
Volkan

....on about the same product are we not we, dot 3 / 4 / 5 fluid?          



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing

2006-07-18 by Volkan Sahin

Don't forget to clean your pcb after each try and after applying brake fluid wipe it a few times to create very thin film on the copper surface.
  Volkan

... i tried a PCB pattern and it puddled again. damn.

Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-19 by Len Warner

On Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 5:13 am (PDT), mycroft2152 wrote:

>The active ingredient in Brake fluid is a glycol, as per the MSDS
>(Material Safety Data Sheet):

Errm, not quite: add up the percentages in the MSDS.

It's 21% to 37% various glycols but the major part, 63% to 79%,
is various glycol ethers, not at all the same animal.

>http://www.warcopro.com/spanish/pages/brakefluid-pdf.html

Also note that this is a DOT3 specification, which is rather old.

AIUI, modern cars may be using DOT4 or better, which will have
a different formulation, probably to reduce its affinity for water
and increase its boiling point, thus reducing the risk of vapour-
lock under heavy braking.

>Glycols are used in may commercial products and even foods. Look for
>Propylene or ethylene glycol in the ingredient list.

Propylene glycol is GRAS in food - but isn't in this brake fluid.
Other glycols probably shouldn't appear in food, except for
polyethylene glycol (PEG), used as an anti-foaming agent in
Dr Pepper and with several uses in medicines.

Glycols are close relatives of alcohol and some have a sweet taste.
IIRC, diethylene glycol was used some years ago, quite illegally,
as an improver for Austrian wines.

However, if you again consult the MSDS, you will realize that you
probably wouldn't want to consume any of these glycols, since the
oral rat LD50 (50% mortality after consumption by mouth) is in the
range 22g per kg body weight (for PEG) down to 4.7g/kg - and the
glycol ether is, usually, more toxic than its glycol parent.

[However, for comparison, the oral rat LD50 of ethyl alcohol,
grain spirit, is only 7.06g/kg - but I would suggest that its
consumption would be much more fun, with better understood
ancillary health risks ;-) ]

>Antifreeze is another good source, but has other chemicals in it.

Probably diethylene glycol plus corrosion inhibitors and dye: cheap
antifreeze may contain alcohols but these make it corrosive
to aluminium and hence unsuitable for modern engines.

>Glyceerine is a close cousin and should aslo work.

Glycerine (glycerol, E422) is close to glycols but only a second cousin
to glycol ethers. It is often used as an humectant in products such as
chewy sweets and crumbly cakes to maintain their texture. It is so
hygroscopic that if you apply it to your PCB it will never be dry in an
atmospheric humidity comfortable for humans.

>[snip] Theoretically, you could add the glycol to the ink itself.

Except that:
a) glycol, per se, is not the major ingredient of the formula you cited
(and we don't know what brake fluid Volcan used), and
b) glycol is already an ingredient of many inkjet inks but possibly not
of the special inks we find usable for direct resist printing (I have
seen a suggestion that some of these may be acrylic - other ideas?)
c) and then only if we don't mind changing the ink's drop-forming
dynamics at the nozzle.


Regards, LenW

Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-20 by mycroft2152

Len,

Hmmm, interesting technical discussion, but how about something
practical and positive that will move along the direct to pcb printing?

Voltan's creativity in problem solving, is a lot more impressive than
your technical writing expertise or googling ability. How about some
"back to the bench" results.

Seriously, finding a simple reliable method to "prepare" the copper is
needed.

If a "product" is needed, then it must be something that is generic
and not brand specific. Look at the headaches the variations in
"toner" created.

The fact is that inkjet pcb printing hasn't reached the stage of
practicality, it just barely repeatable after 3 months of discussion.
Has anyone collected the $50 prize offered?

Myc


>

In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Len Warner <yahoo@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 5:13 am (PDT), mycroft2152 wrote:
> 
> >The active ingredient in Brake fluid is a glycol, as per the MSDS
> >(Material Safety Data Sheet):
> 
> Errm, not quite: add up the percentages in the MSDS.
> 
> It's 21% to 37% various glycols but the major part, 63% to 79%,
> is various glycol ethers, not at all the same animal.
> 
> >http://www.warcopro.com/spanish/pages/brakefluid-pdf.html
> 
> Also note that this is a DOT3 specification, which is rather old.
> 
> AIUI, modern cars may be using DOT4 or better, which will have
> a different formulation, probably to reduce its affinity for water
> and increase its boiling point, thus reducing the risk of vapour-
> lock under heavy braking.
> 
> >Glycols are used in may commercial products and even foods. Look for
> >Propylene or ethylene glycol in the ingredient list.
> 
> Propylene glycol is GRAS in food - but isn't in this brake fluid.
> Other glycols probably shouldn't appear in food, except for
> polyethylene glycol (PEG), used as an anti-foaming agent in
> Dr Pepper and with several uses in medicines.
> 
> Glycols are close relatives of alcohol and some have a sweet taste.
> IIRC, diethylene glycol was used some years ago, quite illegally,
> as an improver for Austrian wines.
> 
> However, if you again consult the MSDS, you will realize that you
> probably wouldn't want to consume any of these glycols, since the
> oral rat LD50 (50% mortality after consumption by mouth) is in the
> range 22g per kg body weight (for PEG) down to 4.7g/kg - and the
> glycol ether is, usually, more toxic than its glycol parent.
> 
> [However, for comparison, the oral rat LD50 of ethyl alcohol,
> grain spirit, is only 7.06g/kg - but I would suggest that its
> consumption would be much more fun, with better understood
> ancillary health risks ;-) ]
> 
> >Antifreeze is another good source, but has other chemicals in it.
> 
> Probably diethylene glycol plus corrosion inhibitors and dye: cheap
> antifreeze may contain alcohols but these make it corrosive
> to aluminium and hence unsuitable for modern engines.
> 
> >Glyceerine is a close cousin and should aslo work.
> 
> Glycerine (glycerol, E422) is close to glycols but only a second cousin
> to glycol ethers. It is often used as an humectant in products such as
> chewy sweets and crumbly cakes to maintain their texture. It is so
> hygroscopic that if you apply it to your PCB it will never be dry in an
> atmospheric humidity comfortable for humans.
> 
> >[snip] Theoretically, you could add the glycol to the ink itself.
> 
> Except that:
> a) glycol, per se, is not the major ingredient of the formula you cited
> (and we don't know what brake fluid Volcan used), and
> b) glycol is already an ingredient of many inkjet inks but possibly not
> of the special inks we find usable for direct resist printing (I have
> seen a suggestion that some of these may be acrylic - other ideas?)
> c) and then only if we don't mind changing the ink's drop-forming
> dynamics at the nozzle.
> 
> 
> Regards, LenW
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-20 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "mycroft2152" <mycroft2152y@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:42 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing


> Len,
>
> Hmmm, interesting technical discussion, but how about something
> practical and positive that will move along the direct to pcb printing?
>
> Voltan's creativity in problem solving, is a lot more impressive than
> your technical writing expertise or googling ability. How about some
> "back to the bench" results.
>
> Seriously, finding a simple reliable method to "prepare" the copper is
> needed.
>
> If a "product" is needed, then it must be something that is generic
> and not brand specific. Look at the headaches the variations in
> "toner" created.
>
> The fact is that inkjet pcb printing hasn't reached the stage of
> practicality, it just barely repeatable after 3 months of discussion.
> Has anyone collected the $50 prize offered?

The companies which have been spending lots of money on this technique using 
very expensive printheads and UV cured ink don't seem to be getting 
anywhere. AFAIK only one company is selling this technology, and that is 
mainly for silk screen deposition rather than resist.

Leon

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-20 by Myc Holmes

Maybe only one company has "perfected' the technique and has spent lots of
money to create a commercially viable production technique. Carefully note
the last four words.

Tthe requirements for 'homebrew' pcb maker are totally different.

Toner transfer works well, but you don't see any commercial house using it.

Remember, "experts" once said the work=ld was flat and humans couldn't go
faster than 60 mile per hour...

Myc

On 7/20/06, Leon Heller <leon.heller@...> wrote:
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mycroft2152" <mycroft2152y@... <mycroft2152y%40gmail.com>>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:42 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing
>
> > Len,
> >
> > Hmmm, interesting technical discussion, but how about something
> > practical and positive that will move along the direct to pcb printing?
> >
> > Voltan's creativity in problem solving, is a lot more impressive than
> > your technical writing expertise or googling ability. How about some
> > "back to the bench" results.
> >
> > Seriously, finding a simple reliable method to "prepare" the copper is
> > needed.
> >
> > If a "product" is needed, then it must be something that is generic
> > and not brand specific. Look at the headaches the variations in
> > "toner" created.
> >
> > The fact is that inkjet pcb printing hasn't reached the stage of
> > practicality, it just barely repeatable after 3 months of discussion.
> > Has anyone collected the $50 prize offered?
>
> The companies which have been spending lots of money on this technique
> using
> very expensive printheads and UV cured ink don't seem to be getting
> anywhere. AFAIK only one company is selling this technology, and that is
> mainly for silk screen deposition rather than resist.
>
> Leon
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-20 by Andrew

> Myc wrote:
> <stuff about inkjet repeatability>
>
> Has anyone collected the $50 prize offered?


What - there is a $50 prize - no one told me
that :D

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-20 by Stefan Trethan

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 14:42:42 +0200, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152y@...>  
wrote:

> Len,
> Hmmm, interesting technical discussion, but how about something
> practical and positive that will move along the direct to pcb printing?
> Voltan's creativity in problem solving, is a lot more impressive than
> your technical writing expertise or googling ability. How about some
> "back to the bench" results.
> Seriously, finding a simple reliable method to "prepare" the copper is
> needed.
> If a "product" is needed, then it must be something that is generic
> and not brand specific. Look at the headaches the variations in
> "toner" created.
> The fact is that inkjet pcb printing hasn't reached the stage of
> practicality, it just barely repeatable after 3 months of discussion.
> Has anyone collected the $50 prize offered?
> Myc


I agree with you for once, much more work is needed here.
The strange thing is - while for me it doesn't seem to work whenever i try  
the test PCB every now any then i get a result that is just so stunning  
that makes me certain this must work. I also tried just "going for it" and  
etched a real PCB. It had wide traces, and some definition was lost around  
the edges, but electrically it only had one break and this was plainly  
visible after printing and could have been corrected.
So this would have been as good as a poor TT. And this was before the  
brake fluid thing with lotsa puddling.

It's like sometimes i get glimpses of how it should be, when i do things  
"just right", but most of the time i do something wrong. Usually this is a  
puddling problem. The thing i feared that nozzles would constanty clog and  
cause breaks in the traces does not seem to happen, they seem to stay in  
quite good order even with the vacuum pump disabled.

It's just a matter of time, i'm sure..

I didn't remember you offered a $50 prize, what were the conditions again?  
;-)

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-21 by Myc Holmes

WOW, mark it on your calender, Stefan and I agree on something!

This kind of grail quest does occaisionally give glimpses of success, though
only just enough to keep you working at it. ;)

The $50 prize was offered, if I remember correctly, by someone from the
PICList to help defray the costs.

I'm hopeful you wil end up with a simple generic process that works.
I'd settle for inkjet printing the resist mask only and toner tranferring
the rest.

Myc

Note   Brake fluids are brand specific in their formulations, but may also
be country specific.





On 7/20/06, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 14:42:42 +0200, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152y@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Len,
> > Hmmm, interesting technical discussion, but how about something
> > practical and positive that will move along the direct to pcb printing?
> > Voltan's creativity in problem solving, is a lot more impressive than
> > your technical writing expertise or googling ability. How about some
> > "back to the bench" results.
> > Seriously, finding a simple reliable method to "prepare" the copper is
> > needed.
> > If a "product" is needed, then it must be something that is generic
> > and not brand specific. Look at the headaches the variations in
> > "toner" created.
> > The fact is that inkjet pcb printing hasn't reached the stage of
> > practicality, it just barely repeatable after 3 months of discussion.
> > Has anyone collected the $50 prize offered?
> > Myc
>
>
> I agree with you for once, much more work is needed here.
> The strange thing is - while for me it doesn't seem to work whenever i try
> the test PCB every now any then i get a result that is just so stunning
> that makes me certain this must work. I also tried just "going for it" and
> etched a real PCB. It had wide traces, and some definition was lost around
> the edges, but electrically it only had one break and this was plainly
> visible after printing and could have been corrected.
> So this would have been as good as a poor TT. And this was before the
> brake fluid thing with lotsa puddling.
>
> It's like sometimes i get glimpses of how it should be, when i do things
> "just right", but most of the time i do something wrong. Usually this is a
> puddling problem. The thing i feared that nozzles would constanty clog and
> cause breaks in the traces does not seem to happen, they seem to stay in
> quite good order even with the vacuum pump disabled.
>
> It's just a matter of time, i'm sure..
>
> I didn't remember you offered a $50 prize, what were the conditions again?
> ;-)
>
> ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-21 by James Newton

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>
> > Myc wrote:
> > <stuff about inkjet repeatability>
> >
> > Has anyone collected the $50 prize offered?
> 
> 
> What - there is a $50 prize - no one told me
> that :D
>

No one has provided me a write up and pictures on how to do it. The 
first person who does gets the $50.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-21 by Volkan Sahin

I have a working solution, can I be a candidate?:) 
Volkan 
 
 
....No one has provided me a write up and pictures on how to do it. The  
 first person who does gets the $50.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-21 by Stefan Trethan

damn it, wanted to try some more and suddenly the printer goes into error  
mode when i try to print anything.
It starts up OK with no fault, then as soon as i print something or press  
paper feed it will do the usual head movement to the left and then sit  
there for a second. When it should start the paper roller it goes into  
error mode without any movement. The paper roller and stepper work/turn  
just fine, it moves that when starting up. I didn't even touch it since  
last time, letting it sit there powered on.. stupid thing.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-21 by Myc Holmes

Famous last words, you get what you pay for....

EBay treasures..

:)

Myc

On 7/21/06, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> damn it, wanted to try some more and suddenly the printer goes into error
> mode when i try to print anything.
> It starts up OK with no fault, then as soon as i print something or press
> paper feed it will do the usual head movement to the left and then sit
> there for a second. When it should start the paper roller it goes into
> error mode without any movement. The paper roller and stepper work/turn
> just fine, it moves that when starting up. I didn't even touch it since
> last time, letting it sit there powered on.. stupid thing.
>
> ST
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-21 by Stefan Trethan

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 21:28:04 +0200, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...>  
wrote:

> Famous last words, you get what you pay for....
> EBay treasures..
> :)
> Myc


The same thing could have happened with a new from the shop unit.
Or do you think they'd have exchanged it on warranty with gaping cutouts  
in the bottom, all other plastic removed, and the x axis separated from  
the rest.

I don't really understand why it's acting up.
When i messed about with the little eprom on the control board i think it  
did the same. But as i said i didn't touch it and it worked just fine  
before!

Damn it i should've gotten that other one a few days ago but i thought i  
wouldn't need it so soon...
Well, maybe i should try out the very quiet freecycle list....

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-21 by Myc Holmes

Freecycle is a good idea.I've gotten a few things from it as well as given
away a few..

Next time you see a wide screen TV listed, let me know :)

Keep up the good work with the project.

Myc

On 7/21/06, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 21:28:04 +0200, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Famous last words, you get what you pay for....
> > EBay treasures..
> > :)
> > Myc
>
>
> The same thing could have happened with a new from the shop unit.
> Or do you think they'd have exchanged it on warranty with gaping cutouts
> in the bottom, all other plastic removed, and the x axis separated from
> the rest.
>
> I don't really understand why it's acting up.
> When i messed about with the little eprom on the control board i think it
> did the same. But as i said i didn't touch it and it worked just fine
> before!
>
> Damn it i should've gotten that other one a few days ago but i thought i
> wouldn't need it so soon...
> Well, maybe i should try out the very quiet freecycle list....
>
> ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-22 by James Newton

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:
>
> I have a working solution, can I be a candidate?:) 
> Volkan 
>  
>  
> ....No one has provided me a write up and pictures on how to do it. 
The  
>  first person who does gets the $50.
>

Absolutly! In fact, it should be you, but I need a complete write up 
with pictures so that others can reasonibly be expected to duplicate 
it. And permission to publish it (none-exclusive) on my web site.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-22 by Gus S Calabrese

I will kick in $100 in addition to James.
IF.........
the method is 99% repeatable and the resolution is suitable
for .025 inch lead spacing.  ( P.S. I will help with documenting )
and requires easy to get and cheap supplies.
Gus


On 2006-Jul 21, at 20:05hrs PM, James Newton wrote:

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:
 >
 > I have a working solution, can I be a candidate?:)
 > Volkan
 >
 >
 > ....No one has provided me a write up and pictures on how to do it.
The
 > first person who does gets the $50.
 >

Absolutly! In fact, it should be you, but I need a complete write up
with pictures so that others can reasonibly be expected to duplicate
it. And permission to publish it (none-exclusive) on my web site.




Gus S Calabrese
Denver, CO
720 222 1309     303 908 7716 cell
Please include and do not limit yourself to "spam2006". I allow  
everything with  "spam2006"  in the subject or text to pass my spam  
filters.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-22 by Stefan Trethan

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 00:49:03 +0200, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...>  
wrote:

> Freecycle is a good idea.I've gotten a few things from it as well as  
> given
> away a few..
> Next time you see a wide screen TV listed, let me know :)
> Keep up the good work with the project.
> Myc


Yes, but the freecycle list here is either dead or not even born yet,  
dunno which. Not that the 1eur at ebay would change anything, but as luck  
would have it there is currently NO c84 in this country on ebay. Last week  
were several and i actually contemplated buying one for spares.
I think i'll get one from germany. About 15eur delivered to my door with  
no fuss isn't that much really, considering the time and  cost involved in  
fetching one locally.

ST

Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-22 by roycepipkins

I was wondering what you all thought of the notion of cooling the
copper board, heating the copper board or electrically charging the
copper board as it goes thru the printer. Might one of those help with
the puddling?

Regards,
Royce

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-22 by Stefan Trethan

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 07:10:08 +0200, Gus S Calabrese <gsc@...>  
wrote:

> I will kick in $100 in addition to James.
> IF.........
> the method is 99% repeatable and the resolution is suitable
> for .025 inch lead spacing.  ( P.S. I will help with documenting )
> and requires easy to get and cheap supplies.
> Gus


Ok, but how do you deternime 99% repeatable?

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing prize

2006-07-22 by Gus S Calabrese

The procedure works 99 out of 100 times if a reasonable person  
follows the procedure
( if the homebrew group thinks this is too rigorous, give me a  
suggestion )

On 2006-Jul 22, at 07:28hrs AM, Stefan Trethan wrote:

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 07:10:08 +0200, Gus S Calabrese <gsc@...>
wrote:

> I will kick in $100 in addition to James.
> IF.........
> the method is 99% repeatable and the resolution is suitable
> for .025 inch lead spacing.  ( P.S. I will help with documenting )
> and requires easy to get and cheap supplies.
> Gus


Ok, but how do you deternime 99% repeatable?

ST


Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and  
Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
Yahoo! Groups Links








Gus S Calabrese
Denver, CO
720 222 1309     303 908 7716 cell
Please include and do not limit yourself to "spam2006". I allow  
everything with  "spam2006"  in the subject or text to pass my spam  
filters.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing

2006-07-22 by Volkan Sahin

James, 
 I was kidding, money is not important indeed it is a fraction of what I spent till now. I what to document it to make it repeatable and to  transfer my experience. We need much people to be involved in inkjet printing. Otherwise with 2-3 people we can not do much experiment.  
   
.. I need a complete write up  with pictures so that others can reasonibly be expected to duplicate  it.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing prize

2006-07-22 by Stefan Trethan

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:44:24 +0200, Gus S Calabrese <gsc@...>  
wrote:

> The procedure works 99 out of 100 times if a reasonable person
> follows the procedure
> ( if the homebrew group thinks this is too rigorous, give me a
> suggestion )


Well, 99% might be a bit tough even for tt or photoprocess.
I mean mistakes happen....


ST

inkjet printing

2006-07-30 by Stefan Trethan

I tried around with it most of the day.
The ink doesn't seem to resist fully and properly.

I even tried FeCl, but the stain in a bottle shows even more  
damage/under-etching than CuCl.
(BTW: many year old FeCl already mixed in a PET bottle is still good, and  
i discovered the vacuum sealed PE bags of FeCl powder/granules have let  
through enough water to wet it slightly. that stuff must be hygroscopic  
like crazy.)

I've started a wiki here which gives me lotsa easy-upload space for pics  
(200Mb)
<http://dipcb.schtuff.com/?action=gallery&q=pcb>

I hope you have permisson to view as-is, let me know if not.

Basically the etchant etches through and i do not know why.

Anyway, i'd thought i throw that at you guys for ideas.

Volkan, is there a way to measure at which temperature and how long you  
cure?

ST

RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing

2006-07-31 by Robert Hedan

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Stefan Trethan
> Envoyé : juillet 30 2006 15:25
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing
> 
> 
...
> 
> I've started a wiki here which gives me lotsa easy-upload 
> space for pics  
> (200Mb)
> <http://dipcb.schtuff.com/?action=gallery&q=pcb>
> 
> I hope you have permisson to view as-is, let me know if not.
...
> 
> ST


Yup, direct access.

Robert
:)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing

2006-07-31 by Volkan Sahin

Stefan,
I didn't measure it. I don't have temp sensor. What I
am doing is, curing it until no more smoke is coming
from the ink and copper becomes silvery color
(oxides). It takes around 5 minutes.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Volkan, is there a way to measure at which
> temperature and how long you  
> cure?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing

2006-07-31 by Herbert E. Plett

Stefan:
what are those black spots on your etched boards?

re picture labelled 'acetone': I would never even try to use a board as dirty
as this looks for toner transfer. (does not look like photograph artifacts).
it is definitely not going to work out ok...


--- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> <http://dipcb.schtuff.com/?action=gallery&q=pcb>
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing

2006-07-31 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 00:06:19 +0200, Herbert E. Plett <cachureos@...>  
wrote:

> Stefan:
> what are those black spots on your etched boards?

What black spots?
You mean the blackened areas of copper? That's what the problem is - the  
resist giving out halfway through and allowing the copper to be etched  
partway.
If that's what you meant...

> re picture labelled 'acetone': I would never even try to use a board as  
> dirty
> as this looks for toner transfer. (does not look like photograph  
> artifacts).
> it is definitely not going to work out ok...

I dunno, looks pretty clean to me! I use the same cleaning (even less  
careful) for TT with no problems.
there isn't really much i can do other than abrade the surface and then  
remove the dust and remaining grease...

ST

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