Homebrew_PCBs

>Any suggestions on how to solve the puddling issue?

>

>
> The transparencies/fine (paper/quality) setting should use the least
> amount of ink. Don't use any of the Photo media settings. Epson's
> inkjet transparencies are just standard film with a very thin absorbent
> layer on one side that scrubs off quite easily with water. However,
> it's the consistency and absorbency of this layer that makes them so
> good compared to others.

> Stefan,
> I saw some puddling when the board is not clean enough and to avoid it
> I used wetting agent. I just did a few tests it worked for me.
> I used automobile break fluid as a wetting agent. Coat cleaned pcb with
> very thin film of break fluid and wipe it several times completely with
> paper towel. Set printer to minimum ink amount and then print.
> Volkan

>The transparency setting does not use any black ink.

>

>
> Yeah, Volkan noted this too, much to Fenrir's surprise. But it's
> printer dependent, the dye based R200, R300 series will use black ink
> only for transparencies if you so choose.

>
> Can you change from "Normal" to "Draft" setting in printer driver? I
> have
> NO clue what this actually does; whether it narrows the pulse-width, or
> reduces the "pulse-count" on a string of pulses, or what. In a Word
> application,
> "Draft" reduces the amount of ink "spit" at the paper considerably.

>Well, for the C84 it doesn't allow you to choose black only for
>transparencies.

>I wish someone made a printer driver where you could select DPI, ink
>density, printing speed, and adjust all colors/black separately.

>

> Also, i notice the parking pad is full of ink/water each time. i have
> disabled the vacuum pump to prevent all ink running off, and

> the pad dry with a syringe before printing. It is easy to prime or

> printhead without the pump, with the syringe. But i do not think the

> should run down into the parking pad normally?

> The park pad -should- always be moist, if it weren't then the heads
> would tend to dry and clog.
> If it is full, then there is something else wrong. Didn't you put a
> bulk ink system on this? The tanks may be sitting too high, or filled
> incorrectly. If not a bulk ink system, you may have either filled
> incorrectly or haven't gotten 100% sealed on the ink fill holes.
> Steve Greenfield

> Still- worth a try for sure that breaking fluid.

> I added some black ink to the yellow so the effect will be seen on

> I tried making photos but it is impossible to see with yellow only

> picture. Must make some now...

>
> On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 21:54:03 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>
> > The park pad -should- always be moist, if it weren't then the heads
> > would tend to dry and clog.
> > If it is full, then there is something else wrong. Didn't you put a
> > bulk ink system on this? The tanks may be sitting too high, or filled
> > incorrectly. If not a bulk ink system, you may have either filled
> > incorrectly or haven't gotten 100% sealed on the ink fill holes.
> > Steve Greenfield
>
>
> I have put spongeless carts on this, not a CIS.
> The silicone stoppers are very likely airtight...

> What could have happened is that i didn't raise the park station the
> identically same amount as the head, would this cause this?
> I'd assume the spring under the pad would prevent any problems there...

> The spongless carts would be an obvious place to seek fault with,

> believe they are fairly standard items.
> Also, i had all the ink leak out of the cart, twice (=each time i
> refilled) with the old sponged carts...

> Do i need to observe something when filling those carts?

>> I have put spongeless carts on this, not a CIS.
>> The silicone stoppers are very likely airtight...
> If they are not, it will cause just these symptoms of wet park station
> and ink running out.
>
>> What could have happened is that i didn't raise the park station the
>> identically same amount as the head, would this cause this?
>> I'd assume the spring under the pad would prevent any problems there...
> That is possible, depends on how high you raised it. It isn't designed
> with this in mind, after all, however I don't see how it could cause
> theink to leak or the park station to always be wet.
>
>> The spongless carts would be an obvious place to seek fault with,
> but i
>> believe they are fairly standard items.
>> Also, i had all the ink leak out of the cart, twice (=each time i
>> refilled) with the old sponged carts...
> Hm. That is strange, almost like something in the park station or on
> the bottom of the heads is wicking ink out.
>
>> Do i need to observe something when filling those carts?
> The fill hole -must- be absolutely sealed airtight. Don't try to fill
> to the absolute tip-top.

> Stefan,
> I saw some puddling when the board is not clean enough and to avoid it
> I used wetting agent. I just did a few tests it worked for me.
> I used automobile break fluid as a wetting agent. Coat cleaned pcb with
> very thin film of break fluid and wipe it several times completely with
> paper towel. Set printer to minimum ink amount and then print.
> Volkan

>
> Volkan, the breaking fluid indeed works!
> I'm amazed, and stumped how you worked that one out.
>
> No more puddling at all - looks great. Now i hope the breaking

> not hamper curing or etching - but i don't expect since everything

> suggest seems to work ;-)
>
> Test PCB next. Hopefully this time it finally works.
>
> ST
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:28:55 +0200, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Stefan,
> > I saw some puddling when the board is not clean enough and to

> > I used wetting agent. I just did a few tests it worked for me.
> > I used automobile break fluid as a wetting agent. Coat cleaned

> > very thin film of break fluid and wipe it several times

> > paper towel. Set printer to minimum ink amount and then print.
> > Volkan
>

>
> That is just so strange. Volkan is indeed demonstrating that he

> a crafty fellow! Brake fluid, what the heck! For a wetting

> that would have been the last thing I would have tried.
>
> As another possiblity for a wetting agent, if someone out there is
> trying this and wears contact lenses, I believe one of the

> used to clean or rinse them is a wetting agent. It's been nearly

> years since I tried wearing contacts and for some reason I
> remembered this information about them.
>
> Brake fluid - I am going to be pondering that one for a while!
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> <stefan_trethan@> wrote:
> >
> > Volkan, the breaking fluid indeed works!
> > I'm amazed, and stumped how you worked that one out.
> >
> > No more puddling at all - looks great. Now i hope the breaking
> fluid will
> > not hamper curing or etching - but i don't expect since

> you
> > suggest seems to work ;-)
> >
> > Test PCB next. Hopefully this time it finally works.
> >
> > ST
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:28:55 +0200, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Stefan,
> > > I saw some puddling when the board is not clean enough and to
> avoid it
> > > I used wetting agent. I just did a few tests it worked for me.
> > > I used automobile break fluid as a wetting agent. Coat

> pcb with
> > > very thin film of break fluid and wipe it several times
> completely with
> > > paper towel. Set printer to minimum ink amount and then print.
> > > Volkan
> >
>

> Stefan,
> That's great. Don't worry about etching it will evaporate while curing
> without leaving any residue.
> Good luck.
> Volkan

>The active ingredient in Brake fluid is a glycol, as per the MSDS
>(Material Safety Data Sheet):

>http://www.warcopro.com/spanish/pages/brakefluid-pdf.html

>Glycols are used in may commercial products and even foods. Look for
>Propylene or ethylene glycol in the ingredient list.

>Antifreeze is another good source, but has other chemicals in it.

>Glyceerine is a close cousin and should aslo work.

>[snip] Theoretically, you could add the glycol to the ink itself.

>

>
> On Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 5:13 am (PDT), mycroft2152 wrote:
>
> >The active ingredient in Brake fluid is a glycol, as per the MSDS
> >(Material Safety Data Sheet):
>
> Errm, not quite: add up the percentages in the MSDS.
>
> It's 21% to 37% various glycols but the major part, 63% to 79%,
> is various glycol ethers, not at all the same animal.
>
> >http://www.warcopro.com/spanish/pages/brakefluid-pdf.html
>
> Also note that this is a DOT3 specification, which is rather old.
>
> AIUI, modern cars may be using DOT4 or better, which will have
> a different formulation, probably to reduce its affinity for water
> and increase its boiling point, thus reducing the risk of vapour-
> lock under heavy braking.
>
> >Glycols are used in may commercial products and even foods. Look for
> >Propylene or ethylene glycol in the ingredient list.
>
> Propylene glycol is GRAS in food - but isn't in this brake fluid.
> Other glycols probably shouldn't appear in food, except for
> polyethylene glycol (PEG), used as an anti-foaming agent in
> Dr Pepper and with several uses in medicines.
>
> Glycols are close relatives of alcohol and some have a sweet taste.
> IIRC, diethylene glycol was used some years ago, quite illegally,
> as an improver for Austrian wines.
>
> However, if you again consult the MSDS, you will realize that you
> probably wouldn't want to consume any of these glycols, since the
> oral rat LD50 (50% mortality after consumption by mouth) is in the
> range 22g per kg body weight (for PEG) down to 4.7g/kg - and the
> glycol ether is, usually, more toxic than its glycol parent.
>
> [However, for comparison, the oral rat LD50 of ethyl alcohol,
> grain spirit, is only 7.06g/kg - but I would suggest that its
> consumption would be much more fun, with better understood
> ancillary health risks ;-) ]
>
> >Antifreeze is another good source, but has other chemicals in it.
>
> Probably diethylene glycol plus corrosion inhibitors and dye: cheap
> antifreeze may contain alcohols but these make it corrosive
> to aluminium and hence unsuitable for modern engines.
>
> >Glyceerine is a close cousin and should aslo work.
>
> Glycerine (glycerol, E422) is close to glycols but only a second cousin
> to glycol ethers. It is often used as an humectant in products such as
> chewy sweets and crumbly cakes to maintain their texture. It is so
> hygroscopic that if you apply it to your PCB it will never be dry in an
> atmospheric humidity comfortable for humans.
>
> >[snip] Theoretically, you could add the glycol to the ink itself.
>
> Except that:
> a) glycol, per se, is not the major ingredient of the formula you cited
> (and we don't know what brake fluid Volcan used), and
> b) glycol is already an ingredient of many inkjet inks but possibly not
> of the special inks we find usable for direct resist printing (I have
> seen a suggestion that some of these may be acrylic - other ideas?)
> c) and then only if we don't mind changing the ink's drop-forming
> dynamics at the nozzle.
>
>
> Regards, LenW
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "mycroft2152" <mycroft2152y@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:42 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing


> Len,
>
> Hmmm, interesting technical discussion, but how about something
> practical and positive that will move along the direct to pcb printing?
>
> Voltan's creativity in problem solving, is a lot more impressive than
> your technical writing expertise or googling ability. How about some
> "back to the bench" results.
>
> Seriously, finding a simple reliable method to "prepare" the copper is
> needed.
>
> If a "product" is needed, then it must be something that is generic
> and not brand specific. Look at the headaches the variations in
> "toner" created.
>
> The fact is that inkjet pcb printing hasn't reached the stage of
> practicality, it just barely repeatable after 3 months of discussion.
> Has anyone collected the $50 prize offered?

The companies which have been spending lots of money on this technique using
very expensive printheads and UV cured ink don't seem to be getting
anywhere. AFAIK only one company is selling this technology, and that is
mainly for silk screen deposition rather than resist.

Leon

On 7/20/06, Leon Heller <leon.heller@...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mycroft2152" <mycroft2152y@... <mycroft2152y%40gmail.com>>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:42 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing
>
> > Len,
> >
> > Hmmm, interesting technical discussion, but how about something
> > practical and positive that will move along the direct to pcb printing?
> >
> > Voltan's creativity in problem solving, is a lot more impressive than
> > your technical writing expertise or googling ability. How about some
> > "back to the bench" results.
> >
> > Seriously, finding a simple reliable method to "prepare" the copper is
> > needed.
> >
> > If a "product" is needed, then it must be something that is generic
> > and not brand specific. Look at the headaches the variations in
> > "toner" created.
> >
> > The fact is that inkjet pcb printing hasn't reached the stage of
> > practicality, it just barely repeatable after 3 months of discussion.
> > Has anyone collected the $50 prize offered?
>
> The companies which have been spending lots of money on this technique
> using
> very expensive printheads and UV cured ink don't seem to be getting
> anywhere. AFAIK only one company is selling this technology, and that is
> mainly for silk screen deposition rather than resist.
>
> Leon
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Myc wrote:
> <stuff about inkjet repeatability>
>
> Has anyone collected the $50 prize offered?

> Len,
> Hmmm, interesting technical discussion, but how about something
> practical and positive that will move along the direct to pcb printing?
> Voltan's creativity in problem solving, is a lot more impressive than
> your technical writing expertise or googling ability. How about some
> "back to the bench" results.
> Seriously, finding a simple reliable method to "prepare" the copper is
> needed.
> If a "product" is needed, then it must be something that is generic
> and not brand specific. Look at the headaches the variations in
> "toner" created.
> The fact is that inkjet pcb printing hasn't reached the stage of
> practicality, it just barely repeatable after 3 months of discussion.
> Has anyone collected the $50 prize offered?
> Myc

On 7/20/06, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 14:42:42 +0200, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152y@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Len,
> > Hmmm, interesting technical discussion, but how about something
> > practical and positive that will move along the direct to pcb printing?
> > Voltan's creativity in problem solving, is a lot more impressive than
> > your technical writing expertise or googling ability. How about some
> > "back to the bench" results.
> > Seriously, finding a simple reliable method to "prepare" the copper is
> > needed.
> > If a "product" is needed, then it must be something that is generic
> > and not brand specific. Look at the headaches the variations in
> > "toner" created.
> > The fact is that inkjet pcb printing hasn't reached the stage of
> > practicality, it just barely repeatable after 3 months of discussion.
> > Has anyone collected the $50 prize offered?
> > Myc
>
>
> I agree with you for once, much more work is needed here.
> The strange thing is - while for me it doesn't seem to work whenever i try
> the test PCB every now any then i get a result that is just so stunning
> that makes me certain this must work. I also tried just "going for it" and
> etched a real PCB. It had wide traces, and some definition was lost around
> the edges, but electrically it only had one break and this was plainly
> visible after printing and could have been corrected.
> So this would have been as good as a poor TT. And this was before the
> brake fluid thing with lotsa puddling.
>
> It's like sometimes i get glimpses of how it should be, when i do things
> "just right", but most of the time i do something wrong. Usually this is a
> puddling problem. The thing i feared that nozzles would constanty clog and
> cause breaks in the traces does not seem to happen, they seem to stay in
> quite good order even with the vacuum pump disabled.
>
> It's just a matter of time, i'm sure..
>
> I didn't remember you offered a $50 prize, what were the conditions again?
> ;-)
>
> ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> > Myc wrote:
> > <stuff about inkjet repeatability>
> >
> > Has anyone collected the $50 prize offered?
>
>
> What - there is a $50 prize - no one told me
> that :D
>

On 7/21/06, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> damn it, wanted to try some more and suddenly the printer goes into error
> mode when i try to print anything.
> It starts up OK with no fault, then as soon as i print something or press
> paper feed it will do the usual head movement to the left and then sit
> there for a second. When it should start the paper roller it goes into
> error mode without any movement. The paper roller and stepper work/turn
> just fine, it moves that when starting up. I didn't even touch it since
> last time, letting it sit there powered on.. stupid thing.
>
> ST
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Famous last words, you get what you pay for....
> EBay treasures..
> :)
> Myc

On 7/21/06, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 21:28:04 +0200, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Famous last words, you get what you pay for....
> > EBay treasures..
> > :)
> > Myc
>
>
> The same thing could have happened with a new from the shop unit.
> Or do you think they'd have exchanged it on warranty with gaping cutouts
> in the bottom, all other plastic removed, and the x axis separated from
> the rest.
>
> I don't really understand why it's acting up.
> When i messed about with the little eprom on the control board i think it
> did the same. But as i said i didn't touch it and it worked just fine
> before!
>
> Damn it i should've gotten that other one a few days ago but i thought i
> wouldn't need it so soon...
> Well, maybe i should try out the very quiet freecycle list....
>
> ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> I have a working solution, can I be a candidate?:)
> Volkan
>
>
> ....No one has provided me a write up and pictures on how to do it.

> first person who does gets the $50.
>

On 2006-Jul 21, at 20:05hrs PM, James Newton wrote:

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:
>
> I have a working solution, can I be a candidate?:)
> Volkan
>
>
> ....No one has provided me a write up and pictures on how to do it.
The
> first person who does gets the $50.
>

Absolutly! In fact, it should be you, but I need a complete write up
with pictures so that others can reasonibly be expected to duplicate
it. And permission to publish it (none-exclusive) on my web site.




Gus S Calabrese
Denver, CO
720 222 1309 303 908 7716 cell
Please include and do not limit yourself to "spam2006". I allow
everything with "spam2006" in the subject or text to pass my spam
filters.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Freecycle is a good idea.I've gotten a few things from it as well as
> given
> away a few..
> Next time you see a wide screen TV listed, let me know :)
> Keep up the good work with the project.
> Myc

> I will kick in $100 in addition to James.
> IF.........
> the method is 99% repeatable and the resolution is suitable
> for .025 inch lead spacing. ( P.S. I will help with documenting )
> and requires easy to get and cheap supplies.
> Gus

On 2006-Jul 22, at 07:28hrs AM, Stefan Trethan wrote:

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 07:10:08 +0200, Gus S Calabrese <gsc@...>
wrote:

> I will kick in $100 in addition to James.
> IF.........
> the method is 99% repeatable and the resolution is suitable
> for .025 inch lead spacing. ( P.S. I will help with documenting )
> and requires easy to get and cheap supplies.
> Gus


Ok, but how do you deternime 99% repeatable?

ST


Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
Yahoo! Groups Links








Gus S Calabrese
Denver, CO
720 222 1309 303 908 7716 cell
Please include and do not limit yourself to "spam2006". I allow
everything with "spam2006" in the subject or text to pass my spam
filters.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> The procedure works 99 out of 100 times if a reasonable person
> follows the procedure
> ( if the homebrew group thinks this is too rigorous, give me a
> suggestion )

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Stefan Trethan
> Envoyé : juillet 30 2006 15:25
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing
>
>

>
> I've started a wiki here which gives me lotsa easy-upload
> space for pics
> (200Mb)
> <http://dipcb.schtuff.com/?action=gallery&q=pcb>
>
> I hope you have permisson to view as-is, let me know if not.

>
> ST

> Volkan, is there a way to measure at which
> temperature and how long you
> cure?

>
> <http://dipcb.schtuff.com/?action=gallery&q=pcb>
>

> Stefan:
> what are those black spots on your etched boards?

> re picture labelled 'acetone': I would never even try to use a board as
> dirty
> as this looks for toner transfer. (does not look like photograph
> artifacts).
> it is definitely not going to work out ok...