Homebrew PCBs

I have difficulty in finding acetone.
Can the board be cleaned sufficiently with other chemicals like
isopropyl alchohol?

Don

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "glasspusher2001" <glasspusher2001@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 6:11 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Cleaning PCB without Acetone


>I have difficulty in finding acetone.
> Can the board be cleaned sufficiently with other chemicals like
> isopropyl alchohol?

IPA works very well, I use it all the time.

Leon

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 19:11:42 +0100, glasspusher2001  
<glasspusher2001@...> wrote:

> I have difficulty in finding acetone.
>
> Can the board be cleaned sufficiently with other chemicals like
>
> isopropyl alchohol?
>
>
> Don


You can clean it with alcohol very well, but you can not remove toner if  
that is what you had in mind.

ST

Hi Don,

As Stefan pointed out, isopropyl alcohol can be used for cleaning, 
but it won't remove significant amounts of toner.  When using 
isopropyl alcohol, use the anhydrous variety (99% pure or better).  
Rubbing alcohol from drug stores is 30% water and will leave residue.

Home improvement stores should carry acetone in quart to gallon 
containers.  In a pinch, you can use nail polish remover.

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "glasspusher2001" 
<glasspusher2001@...> wrote:

>
> I have difficulty in finding acetone.
> Can the board be cleaned sufficiently with other chemicals like
> isopropyl alchohol?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "glasspusher2001"
<glasspusher2001@...> wrote:
>
> I have difficulty in finding acetone.
> Can the board be cleaned sufficiently with other chemicals like
> isopropyl alchohol?

Cellulose paint thinners (from any car accessory shop) works very
well, and removes toner.

Leon

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 20:14:51 +0100, dl5012 <dl5012@...> wrote:

> Hi Don,
>
>
> As Stefan pointed out, isopropyl alcohol can be used for cleaning,
>
> but it won't remove significant amounts of toner.  When using
>
> isopropyl alcohol, use the anhydrous variety (99% pure or better).
>
> Rubbing alcohol from drug stores is 30% water and will leave residue.
>
>
> Home improvement stores should carry acetone in quart to gallon
>
> containers.  In a pinch, you can use nail polish remover.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dennis


In general i found ethanol better than IPA for cleaning stuff. While it  
does solve the same things IPA seems to leave more residue.
Ethanol (denatured alcohol) is also more commonly sold around here,  
although i would get both at the place where i buy it. The price is  
similar i think.
And in my opinion ethanol smells better.

ST

You won't find "anhydrous" or 99% alcohol in a store.

90% is the highest you'll find isopropyl at.

Alcohols and water form what are called "azeotropes;
which is a solution that has a point during distillation
where both items begin distilling off at the same rate.

I.e. you can distill all you want after that, but the alc.
will never get any purer.

For ethanol, this is around 96% eth. and 4% water.

Can't recall the exact azeotrope ratio for isopropyl; but
it's in the same range.  Given the fact that 90% iso is
common, but that one -never- sees higher than that;
I'll guess that the azeotrope is around 90%... <grin>

I generally use liquid dish-soap (as plain/unscented
as possible) with a 'harsh' 3M scrub-sponge; followed
by iso alc. cleaning.  However, that's just for initial
prep prior to laminating dry-film resist on.

For stripping toner, you do quite likely need acetone.

MEK is another very effective solvent.  VERY effective...<grin>.

It'll take the paint right off your car....so be forewarned...

Richard
--
============================
Please do NOT add or "subscribe" my name to ANY lists/databases.

Hi Richard,

I've bought 99% anhydrous isopropyl alcohol at a pharmacy in a 
hospital (special order) and at Frys Electronics.  It runs around 
$4/pint.  In the tekscopes group, someone said they bought it at 
Albertsons or Safeway...

You can buy mail order from jameco.com - 
<http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?
langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=263572>

Mail order in larger quantities may hit you with a hazmat charge.  
I've found places that sold it for around $15/gal, but hazmat fee of 
$40.  Same with flux removers...

Both IAP and ethanol are hygroscopic.  IAP and acetone are highly 
flammable.

Regards,
Dennis
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Richard <metal@...> wrote:

>
> 
> You won't find "anhydrous" or 99% alcohol in a store.
> 
> 90% is the highest you'll find isopropyl at.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "dl5012" <dl5012@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 8:47 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Cleaning PCB without Acetone


> Hi Richard,
>
> I've bought 99% anhydrous isopropyl alcohol at a pharmacy in a
> hospital (special order) and at Frys Electronics.  It runs around
> $4/pint.  In the tekscopes group, someone said they bought it at
> Albertsons or Safeway...
>
> You can buy mail order from jameco.com -
> <http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?
> langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=263572>
>
> Mail order in larger quantities may hit you with a hazmat charge.
> I've found places that sold it for around $15/gal, but hazmat fee of
> $40.  Same with flux removers...
>
> Both IAP and ethanol are hygroscopic.  IAP and acetone are highly
> flammable.

Acetone might be difficult to obtain, as it is a constituent of triacetone 
triperoxide (TATP). TATP is the explosive of choice for suicide bombers - 
easily made and very powerful.

Leon

If you use HCl and H2O2 for etching, and acetone for cleaning, don't
add the acetone to the etchant for disposal. It might form TATP, which
would be very unstable at room temperature and could explode, although
it is unlikely.

Leon

Leon Heller wrote:

> Acetone might be difficult to obtain, as it is a constituent of 
> triacetone
> triperoxide (TATP).

Acetone is easily available to pretty much anyone in the US, at least in 
every city I've been in.  It runs about $15 a gallon and is commonly 
available in pint, quart and gallon containers.  It can be found in the 
paint departments in any hardware store, including Walmart.  Same place 
you'll find denatured ethanol.

It never occured to me to use acetone for removing toner, I usually just 
scrub it off with a Scotch pad.

I'm currently using Staples Picture Paper inkjet photo paper for iron-on 
toner transfer.  It takes the toner well, releases it well and falls 
apart in water pretty easily.  Process is detailed at:
<http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm>

Dave K

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 22:07:14 +0100, leon_heller  
<leon.heller@...> wrote:

> If you use HCl and H2O2 for etching, and acetone for cleaning, don't
>
> add the acetone to the etchant for disposal. It might form TATP, which
>
> would be very unstable at room temperature and could explode, although
>
> it is unlikely.
>
>
> Leon


More importantly, don't buy H2O2 together with Acetone and strong acids.
That might just make them suspicious in some countries.

ST

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 22:19:52 +0100, Codesuidae <codesuidae@...>  
wrote:

> It never occured to me to use acetone for removing toner, I usually just
>
> scrub it off with a Scotch pad.


i scrape it off with a steel scraper.

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "leon_heller" <leon.heller@...>


> If you use HCl and H2O2 for etching, and acetone for cleaning, don't
> add the acetone to the etchant for disposal. It might form TATP, which
> would be very unstable at room temperature and could explode, although
> it is unlikely.

So, what are the precise admixtures? I want to avoid combining the chemicals 
in that particular dangerous manner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide.

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "leon_heller" <leon.heller@...>
> 
> 
>> If you use HCl and H2O2 for etching, and acetone for cleaning, don't
>> add the acetone to the etchant for disposal. It might form TATP, which

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Mike Young" <mikewhy@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Acetone, HCl and H2O2 warning


> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "leon_heller" <leon.heller@...>
>
>
>> If you use HCl and H2O2 for etching, and acetone for cleaning, don't
>> add the acetone to the etchant for disposal. It might form TATP, which
>> would be very unstable at room temperature and could explode, although
>> it is unlikely.
>
> So, what are the precise admixtures? I want to avoid combining the 
> chemicals
> in that particular dangerous manner.

Try Googling for TATP recipes. However, if you are in the USA you might get 
the FBI after you as the NSA is monitoring internet traffic for that sort of 
thing.

Leon

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 23:49:27 +0100, Mike Young <mikewhy@...>  
wrote:

>
>
> So, what are the precise admixtures? I want to avoid combining the  
> chemicals
>
> in that particular dangerous manner.


Just don't put any acetone in then there's no danger.

Chances must be pretty low to get something very dangerous, but if you  
keep the acetone out nothing can happen.
It evaporates fast enough so even if you clean the board immediately  
before putting on the resist it is long gone.

I don't think it's just a matter of mixing the stuff together either, but  
the potential danger is you could make something partially effective by  
accident like it happens sometimes with carelessly discarded labware etc...


ST

> MEK is another very effective solvent.  VERY effective...<grin>.

Has anyone here used MEK to remove toner?  It's used to clean tools
used with epoxy resins (before the resin hardens), so would it harm
glass epoxy PCB material which is (obviously) already cured?

Anyway, MEK sounds like some really nasty stuff in this post: 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/6180

Does anyone here just scrub off the toner after etching using Ajax or
Comet powder, a green 3M Scotchbrite pad and water?  I've used that
method to clean firmly bonded toner off of test boards used in my
toner transfer experiments and it manages to get the toner off pretty
quickly.

I would be VERY careful about using MEK heaps - its an effective solvent 
for sure, but it also a recognised carcinogenic here in Australia, and 
therefore in the workplace occupational health guys go nuts over 
quantities used by individual workers and amospheric systems.  But on 
the other hand, acetone and IPA are also highly flammable!!!

  Whichever you use use in a well ventilated area and be careful with 
ignition sources!!!

  Trev

wbblair3 wrote:

>>MEK is another very effective solvent.  VERY effective...<grin>.
>>    
>>
>
>Has anyone here used MEK to remove toner?  It's used to clean tools
>used with epoxy resins (before the resin hardens), so would it harm
>glass epoxy PCB material which is (obviously) already cured?
>
>Anyway, MEK sounds like some really nasty stuff in this post: 
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/6180
>
>Does anyone here just scrub off the toner after etching using Ajax or
>Comet powder, a green 3M Scotchbrite pad and water?  I've used that
>method to clean firmly bonded toner off of test boards used in my
>toner transfer experiments and it manages to get the toner off pretty
>quickly.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Isn't MEK the stuff that _will_ damage your eyes badly in case of splashes?

ST


On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:18:25 +0100, Trevor Matthews  
<trev.matthews@...> wrote:

> I would be VERY careful about using MEK heaps - its an effective solvent
>
> for sure, but it also a recognised carcinogenic here in Australia, and
>
> therefore in the workplace occupational health guys go nuts over
>
> quantities used by individual workers and amospheric systems.  But on
>
> the other hand, acetone and IPA are also highly flammable!!!
>
>
>   Whichever you use use in a well ventilated area and be careful with
>
> ignition sources!!!
>
>
>   Trev

All of these chemicals are irritants so you should avoid getting them 
in your eyes, on your skin, or inhaled.

ethanol - causes skin and eye irritation.  Ingestion can cause nausea, 
vomitting, and inebriation.  Chronic use can cause sever liver damage.

denatured alcohol - same as ethanal except it can kill you

IAP - harmful by inhalation, ingestion, or skin absorption.  May act 
as an irritant.

acetone - may be harmful by inhalation, ingestion, or skin 
absorption.  Irritant - liquid may cause permanent eye damage (corneal 
clouding).  Skin contact may cause defatting (always in my case...).  
Also called dimethyl ketone, methyl ketone.

ferric chloride - corrosive - causes burns.  Harmful if swallowed and 
in contact with skin.  Prolonged contact may lead to dermatitis.

Regards,
Dennis
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Isn't MEK the stuff that _will_ damage your eyes badly in case of 
splashes?
> 
> ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Isn't MEK the stuff that _will_ damage your eyes badly in case of
splashes?
> 
> ST

Yes.  A link to an incident of such damage:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/6180

>All of these chemicals are irritants so you should avoid getting them
>in your eyes, on your skin, or inhaled.

Used to work 5 years in a paint pigment manufacturing company as 
the "computer guy". BTW, just about all paints start off as a solid 
powdery pigment. MEK, Xylene and just about the nastiest solvents were 
used in great volumes at this place. They would send the office staff 
(aka ladies) home half day about once a month whenever they were 
batching with the nastiest of them all (can't recall which it was). 

Most of the workers in the batching area were ex-convicts on parole. 
Can recall waking many a night with my heart beating at workout pace 
for no apparent reason. The plant foreman died of a heart attack about 
a year after I left the company.

Eye protection and a respirator (with correct filter) should always be 
used with this stuff, even acetone. The MSDSs are quite similar.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dl5012" <dl5012@...> wrote:
>
> All of these chemicals are irritants so you should avoid getting them

hi Dennis,

Thanks much for the refs to possible sources.

I was speaking mostly to what one would find with wide
availability and low price; i.e at the grocery store.

In any case, I've never had a problem using the 90% IPA.

Leon:  acetone is trivial to obtain.  Just go to the hardware
store and buy it by the gallon.  At least, I've never had the
slightest trouble finding it.  Have not bought any for....4 yrs.
now tho.  Same with MEK.  Right there on the shelf next
to the Acetone, in 1-qt and 1-gal metal cans.

Of course, the anal bureuacrats are making life more difficult
every day.  So probably we can't even buy water any more....

Richard
--
============================
Please do NOT add or "subscribe" my name to ANY lists/databases.

On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 18:30:06 +0100, wbblair3 <wbblair3@...> wrote:

> Yes.  A link to an incident of such damage:
>
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/6180


Ah yes, it was your story that made me aware of that, and to stay well  
clear of MEK.

As you say, wearing a face shield is best. I found them much more  
comfortable than goggles.

For some reason i don't understand faceshields are very rare 'round here,  
they are not sold in normal tools shops or DIY stores or even the  
chemcials shop, while you can buy a variety of goggles at those places.

Not only the vision is better, but it protects a much larger area, no  
chippings in your nose or mouth when you cut something.

I also use it for drilling PCBs.

ST

Several years ago acetone was the main ingredient in fingernail 
polish remover.

A few weeks ago in the daily toolbox safety meeting, when grinding 
the company requires the use of both safety glasses or goggles and a 
full face shield. The face shield will stop most of the sparks and 
flying debris. Especially if the wheel should disintegrate. The 
safety glasses or goggles are for those small particles that manage 
to fly and get in between the face shield and your face.

Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 18:30:06 +0100, wbblair3 <wbblair3@...> wrote:
> 
> > Yes.  A link to an incident of such damage:
> >
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/6180
> 
> 
> Ah yes, it was your story that made me aware of that, and to stay 
well  
> clear of MEK.
> 
> As you say, wearing a face shield is best. I found them much more  
> comfortable than goggles.
> 
> For some reason i don't understand faceshields are very rare 'round 
here,  
> they are not sold in normal tools shops or DIY stores or even the  
> chemcials shop, while you can buy a variety of goggles at those 
places.
> 
> Not only the vision is better, but it protects a much larger area, 
no  

> chippings in your nose or mouth when you cut something.
> 
> I also use it for drilling PCBs.
> 
> ST
>

On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 19:16:08 +0100, Richard <metal@...> wrote:

> So probably we can't even buy water any more....


What!?! They sell H2O at your place? Are they crazy? Didn't you know how  
dangerous that is? You can die from inhaling it!
Lotsa people died that way already....

petrol is probably way more dangerous than some of the chemicals they are  
making difficult to buy.

ST

There is another solvent that should be considered for cleaning 
pcb's, DHMO. I've used it successfully for many years.

For further info:

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Richard <metal@...> wrote:

>
> 
> hi Dennis,
> 
> Thanks much for the refs to possible sources.
> 
> I was speaking mostly to what one would find with wide
> availability and low price; i.e at the grocery store.
> 
> In any case, I've never had a problem using the 90% IPA.
> 
> Leon:  acetone is trivial to obtain.  Just go to the hardware
> store and buy it by the gallon.  At least, I've never had the
> slightest trouble finding it.  Have not bought any for....4 yrs.
> now tho.  Same with MEK.  Right there on the shelf next
> to the Acetone, in 1-qt and 1-gal metal cans.
> 
> Of course, the anal bureuacrats are making life more difficult
> every day.  So probably we can't even buy water any more....
> 
> Richard
> --
> ============================
> Please do NOT add or "subscribe" my name to ANY lists/databases.
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dl5012" <dl5012@...> wrote:
>
> All of these chemicals are irritants so you should avoid getting them 
> in your eyes, on your skin, or inhaled.
> 
> ethanol - causes skin and eye irritation.  Ingestion can cause nausea, 
> vomitting, and inebriation.  Chronic use can cause sever liver damage.
> 
> denatured alcohol - same as ethanal except it can kill you

Or worse!  Some of the denaturing ingredients may be methanol, which
can cause blindness.  There are also some other pretty awful 
denaturing agents that I certainly wouldn't want to drink.

> IAP - harmful by inhalation, ingestion, or skin absorption.  May act 
> as an irritant.
> 
> acetone - may be harmful by inhalation, ingestion, or skin 
> absorption.  Irritant - liquid may cause permanent eye damage (corneal 
> clouding).  Skin contact may cause defatting (always in my case...).  
> Also called dimethyl ketone, methyl ketone.

I've seen some warnings that it may be a liver carcinogen (or, 
maybe it's some of the impurities).  In any case, it can go 
through skin, so limit exposure.

> ferric chloride - corrosive - causes burns.  Harmful if swallowed and 
> in contact with skin.  Prolonged contact may lead to dermatitis.

Then, again, the food grade was sometimes used as a nutritional
supplement (but, who knows what kinds of impurities may be in the
industrial grade?).  In any case, it burns like h*ll if you splash
it in your eyes!

> Regards,
> Dennis

Dave

"""What!?! They sell H2O at your place? Are they crazy? Didn't
you
know how  dangerous that is? You can die from inhaling it!
Lotsa people died that way already...."""


hee hee....

yup, that's about it....the psychotic control-freaks are in
charge of the asylum.  Now they're telling us that HCl
is a "hazardous waste"....even tho our own -stomachs-
are full of the stuff.

So next time you see a dead squirrel on the road, be sure
to call the EPA immediately!!  <g>

R.

--
============================
Please do NOT add or "subscribe" my name to ANY lists/databases.

On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 20:53:41 +0100, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>  
wrote:

> There is another solvent that should be considered for cleaning
>
> pcb's, DHMO. I've used it successfully for many years.
>
>
> For further info:
>
>
> http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html
>
>
> TANSTAAFL!
>
>
> Myc


I don't like that page.
It is one of the less scientific ones.

ST

Hey Stefan,

The DHMO website is a little bit of chemist's MSDS
humor. :)

You are not the only one that got caught. 

There was a city council in CA that almost banned the
use of DHMO in their community.

The pitfalls of researching on Google.

Myc




--- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 20:53:41 +0100, mycroft2152
> <mycroft2152@...>  
> wrote:
> 
> > There is another solvent that should be considered
> for cleaning
> >
> > pcb's, DHMO. I've used it successfully for many
> years.
> >
> >
> > For further info:
> >
> >
> > http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html
> >
> >
> > TANSTAAFL!
> >
> >
> > Myc
> 
> 
> I don't like that page.
> It is one of the less scientific ones.
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> 
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post
> them here:
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>     Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 19:46:54 +0100, brewski922 <brewski@...> wrote:

> Several years ago acetone was the main ingredient in fingernail
>
> polish remover.
>
>
> A few weeks ago in the daily toolbox safety meeting, when grinding
>
> the company requires the use of both safety glasses or goggles and a
>
> full face shield. The face shield will stop most of the sparks and
>
> flying debris. Especially if the wheel should disintegrate. The
>
> safety glasses or goggles are for those small particles that manage
>
> to fly and get in between the face shield and your face.
>
>
> Mike


I was wearing all-round closed safety goggles over normal eyeglasses -  
still a spark came in by the badly fitting area around the nose when using  
the angle grinder and melted a small spot on the inner surface of my  
optical eyeglasses (plastic, i was bending down so gravity made it land  
there).

Unless you do something drastic like for example put your head in a bucket  
and pot it in transparent resin (which might impede breathing and  
scratching your nose) there'll always be a way. Well... maybe not with one  
of those inflated plastic suits they use for work with dangerous diseases,  
but those don't seem especially resistant to mechanical impact and your  
neighbours might get worried if you wear one while working in your garage.

ST

In article <op.s4matst7mg0lsf@tu-x2pj5qeyp2u4>,
   Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> What!?! They sell H2O at your place? Are they crazy? Didn't you know how  
> dangerous that is? You can die from inhaling it!
> Lotsa people died that way already....

You can also kill yourself by drinking to much of it, that stuff is poison!

(alters the electrolyte balance in the body)

There was a college kid at the University of Oregon who killed himself 
by trying to drink 5 gallons of water.  It was a stupid Frat 
initiation stunt.  I tell you, Fraternities can make people real 
stupid...  Oh well, purges some undesireable traits out of the Gene 
Pool... <G>

It's really a sad story about stupidity and grave consequences...

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, lists <stuart.winsor.lists@...> 
wrote:
>
> In article <op.s4matst7mg0lsf@tu-x2pj5qeyp2u4>,
>    Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> > What!?! They sell H2O at your place? Are they crazy? Didn't you 
know how  
> > dangerous that is? You can die from inhaling it!
> > Lotsa people died that way already....
> 
> You can also kill yourself by drinking to much of it, that stuff is 
poison!

> 
> (alters the electrolyte balance in the body)
>

Blasted dihydrogen monoxide! When will they ban that dangerous substance?

I hear that industrial waste chemical is even showing up in the
environment in Antarctica...

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dl5012" <dl5012@...> wrote:

>
> There was a college kid at the University of Oregon who killed himself 
> by trying to drink 5 gallons of water.  It was a stupid Frat 
> initiation stunt.  I tell you, Fraternities can make people real 
> stupid...  Oh well, purges some undesireable traits out of the Gene 
> Pool... <G>
> 
> It's really a sad story about stupidity and grave consequences...
> 
> Regards,
> Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 18:30:06 +0100, wbblair3 <wbblair3@...> wrote:
> 
> > Yes.  A link to an incident of such damage:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/6180
> 
> 
> Ah yes, it was your story that made me aware of that, and to stay
well > clear of MEK.
>
> ST

That wasn't MY story, it was one I found in this group by searching
for the keyword "MEK".  I've never used MEK.

WB

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 22:07:14 +0100, leon_heller  
> <leon.heller@...> wrote:
> 
> > If you use HCl and H2O2 for etching, and acetone for cleaning, don't
> >
> > add the acetone to the etchant for disposal. It might form TATP, which
> >
> > would be very unstable at room temperature and could explode, although
> >
> > it is unlikely.
> >for a 
> >
> > Leon
> 
> 
> More importantly, don't buy H2O2 together with Acetone and strong acids.
> That might just make them suspicious in some countries.
> 
> ST

Simple fix. I'd suggest mixing your HCL/H2O2 etchant as soon as you
purchase the ingredients.  I suspect the resulting mixture would be
either useless or very dangerous to use for creation of the nasty
thing you mentioned.

Secondly, don't use acetone to remove toner.  Use lacquer thinner
which contains a mix of solvents.  Once again, I suspect that the mix
of solvents would likely disrupt its use for nefarious purposes.

It's a real shame that there is so very much paranoia about terrorism
that even home PCB makers need to worry about what they buy.  To put
it in some rarely heard perspective, the number of Americans killed by
international terrorism since the late 1960s (which is when the State
Department began counting) is about the same as the number of
Americans killed over the same period by lightning, or
accident-causing deer, or severe allergic reaction to peanuts.

I don't think you are going run into any problems in most countries if you  
can at all explain what you do with it.
But then, i have heard of people having "visits" after buying some simple  
chemicals that are often used in illegal drug labs, in the US i think. Not  
that anyone got into trouble - they just asked what is beeing done with it.

Me personally, i was never asked in the chemicals shop what i am gonna do  
with the stuff, even if it was something on that "list" where they should  
ask (stuff which you can't easily mail-order without paperwork). Neither  
was i ever asked for identification of any sort, so "the authorities"  
wouldn't have any way of knowing who i am.

Procedures are different all around the world, and attempts at preventing  
terrorism are often unreasonable. For example if you want to send a letter  
to Israel from here you are supposed to bring it to the post office  
unsealed, for inspection before it is sent. You can imagine it was not  
uncomplicated to send PCBs to Israel for me, which i do from time to time,  
since the appearance of the PCB prompts a worried "and nothing is going to  
happen with that, right?" from the clerk, repeatedly. The trick is there  
is only one clerk that insists on this inspection (how do you say - "full  
of piss and vinegar" isn't it?), and if you have a careful look and queue  
in the right line to get one of the ladies that couldn't care less what  
you send to israel you will have no inspection. (That there seem to be  
queues at this post office always and at any time of day is another  
peculiarity of that particular one, but then, with one letter double the  
weight beeing more expensive than two letters half the weight together i  
should not be surprised any more about peculiarities of our postal system.  
I could list many more...)

ST

On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:21:25 +0100, wbblair3 <wbblair3@...> wrote:

> Simple fix. I'd suggest mixing your HCL/H2O2 etchant as soon as you
>
> purchase the ingredients.  I suspect the resulting mixture would be
>
> either useless or very dangerous to use for creation of the nasty
>
> thing you mentioned.
>
>
> Secondly, don't use acetone to remove toner.  Use lacquer thinner
>
> which contains a mix of solvents.  Once again, I suspect that the mix
>
> of solvents would likely disrupt its use for nefarious purposes.
>
>
> It's a real shame that there is so very much paranoia about terrorism
>
> that even home PCB makers need to worry about what they buy.  To put
>
> it in some rarely heard perspective, the number of Americans killed by
>
> international terrorism since the late 1960s (which is when the State
>
> Department began counting) is about the same as the number of
>
> Americans killed over the same period by lightning, or
>
> accident-causing deer, or severe allergic reaction to peanuts.
>

In article <op.s5cbtdjpmg0lsf@tu-x2pj5qeyp2u4>,
   Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> The trick is there is only one clerk that insists on this inspection
> (how do you say - "full of piss and vinegar" isn't it?),

Also known as a "jobsworth"