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2MK+2PK+ approach?

2MK+2PK+ approach?

2007-11-19 by Joost Horsten

As i'm still happy with my 2100/ut3D setup the following is right 
now mainly an academic question for myself, but nevertheless it 
intrigues me. I'm not sure if it has been discussed already, but a 
serach showed no reference to it.

Being an irregular visitor of this group only recently learned about 
Pauls new work on the 3MK setup for the 1800. An intriguing 
innovation, but it triggered immediately the link to Paul's earlier 
4K+ approach. So why not have the following setup:
- 2x MK
- 2x PK
- LK or LLK
- LM
- LC
- glop

This seems to me, at least theoretically, the best of both worlds: 
- use of standard, non-blended inks
- black only: cheap, undiluted ink, on matte paper 4 jets (2MK + 
2PK) firing in most of the density range to avoid banding (except 
for the deepast black, where PK is no dense enough)
- compatible with glossy papers
- ability to tone warm, cool and selenium

Am I overlooking something here?

Joost

Re: [Digital BW] 2MK+2PK+ approach?

2007-11-19 by Pablo Kolodny

Joost, 

as I'm new to all this... wish I knew what you mean with so many shorts.
Maybe someone could help me get what those shorts mean

thanks 
Pablo


j.h.j.h@... wrote:

> As i'm still happy with my 2100/ut3D setup the following is right
> now mainly an academic question for myself, but nevertheless it
> intrigues me. I'm not sure if it has been discussed already, but a
> serach showed no reference to it.
> 
> Being an irregular visitor of this group only recently learned about
> Pauls new work on the 3MK setup for the 1800. An intriguing
> innovation, but it triggered immediately the link to Paul's earlier
> 4K+ approach. So why not have the following setup:
> - 2x MK
> - 2x PK
> - LK or LLK
> - LM
> - LC
> - glop
> 
> This seems to me, at least theoretically, the best of both worlds:
> - use of standard, non-blended inks
> - black only: cheap, undiluted ink, on matte paper 4 jets (2MK +
> 2PK) firing in most of the density range to avoid banding (except
> for the deepast black, where PK is no dense enough)
> - compatible with glossy papers
> - ability to tone warm, cool and selenium
> 
> Am I overlooking something here?
> 
> Joost

--

Re: [Digital BW] 2MK+2PK+ approach?

2007-11-19 by wkm@kauaiphotos.biz

>as I'm new to all this... wish I knew what you mean with so many shorts.
>Maybe someone could help me get what those shorts mean
>
>thanks 
>Pablo

2x MK   = 2 matte black
2x PK   = 2 photo black
LK or LLK = Light black, light light black
LM      = light magenta
LC      = light cyan
glop    = gloss optomiser

Walt

Re: [Digital BW] 2MK+2PK+ approach?

2007-11-19 by Pablo Kolodny

thanks Walt.
Now that I see I think I should've figured.

Pablo


wkm@... wrote:

> 2x MK   = 2 matte black
> 2x PK   = 2 photo black
> LK or LLK = Light black, light light black
> LM      = light magenta
> LC      = light cyan
> glop    = gloss optomiser
> 
> Walt

--

RE: [Digital BW] 2MK+2PK+ approach?

2007-11-19 by Paul Roark

Hi Joost,

 

The reason I used the 1800 for the 3-MK approach is that it has the smaller
1.5 picoliter drops.  The 2100/2200 would be too rough for my tastes if it
used just the Eboni MK for an image, no matter how many jets it had firing.

 

In the process of attempting to take the 100% carbon to larger printers, I
did some experiments with the 2200.  See
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/K2-Eboni-LK.pdf   I was able to get decent
prints for large format with existing K2 setups, but they would probably be
a bit too rough for small prints.

 

More recently, the experiments diluting Eboni have been sufficiently
successful that I think that is a better route for 100% carbon matte prints.
See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-5.pdf  

 

Frankly I suspect a 2100/2200 with an Eboni LK would be able to print very
good 100%, near-neutral matte prints.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joost
Horsten
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:03 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] 2MK+2PK+ approach?

 

As i'm still happy with my 2100/ut3D setup the following is right 
now mainly an academic question for myself, but nevertheless it 
intrigues me. I'm not sure if it has been discussed already, but a 
serach showed no reference to it.

Being an irregular visitor of this group only recently learned about 
Pauls new work on the 3MK setup for the 1800. An intriguing 
innovation, but it triggered immediately the link to Paul's earlier 
4K+ approach. So why not have the following setup:
- 2x MK
- 2x PK
- LK or LLK
- LM
- LC
- glop

This seems to me, at least theoretically, the best of both worlds: 
- use of standard, non-blended inks
- black only: cheap, undiluted ink, on matte paper 4 jets (2MK + 
2PK) firing in most of the density range to avoid banding (except 
for the deepast black, where PK is no dense enough)
- compatible with glossy papers
- ability to tone warm, cool and selenium

Am I overlooking something here?

Joost

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: 2MK+2PK+ approach?

2007-11-20 by Joost Horsten

Hi Paul,

Thanks for you reply. 
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> The reason I used the 1800 for the 3-MK approach is that it has 
the smaller
> 1.5 picoliter drops.  The 2100/2200 would be too rough for my 
tastes if it
> used just the Eboni MK for an image, no matter how many jets it 
had firing.

I realize I didn't make myself sufficiently clear. 

I appreciate that the 3MK approach (and therefor also the proposed 
2MK+2PK approach) require the finer drops. So I did not mean to 
propose this approach for a 2100/2200 but for an R1800 instead. The 
idea would be to start from your 3MK approach on a R1800 but add the 
full flexibility of gloss printing and toning, while still keeping 
the advantages of the 3MK approach.  

What would be your insight in this?

Joost

Re: [Digital BW] Re: 2MK+2PK+ approach?

2007-11-20 by Carl Schofield

I found that you don't really need the lighter inks and toners in the  
1800.  I'm now using 3 Eboni, 3 RCNTL-PKN (MIS neutral PK), and 1  
glop.  This lets me print matte or glossy at will and I use warm or  
cool papers to vary print hue.  The newer fiber papers like Harman's  
Glossy Al yield beautiful B&W prints with the PKN in the 1800.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Nov 20, 2007, at 12:58 AM, Joost Horsten wrote:

> Hi Paul,
>
> Thanks for you reply.
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@...> wrote:
>>
>> The reason I used the 1800 for the 3-MK approach is that it has
> the smaller
>> 1.5 picoliter drops.  The 2100/2200 would be too rough for my
> tastes if it
>> used just the Eboni MK for an image, no matter how many jets it
> had firing.
>
> I realize I didn't make myself sufficiently clear.
>
> I appreciate that the 3MK approach (and therefor also the proposed
> 2MK+2PK approach) require the finer drops. So I did not mean to
> propose this approach for a 2100/2200 but for an R1800 instead. The
> idea would be to start from your 3MK approach on a R1800 but add the
> full flexibility of gloss printing and toning, while still keeping
> the advantages of the 3MK approach.
>
> What would be your insight in this?
>
> Joost
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: 2MK+2PK+ approach?

2007-11-20 by Paul Roark

Hi Joost,

> ... the 3MK approach (and therefore also the proposed 
>2MK+2PK approach) require the finer drops. So I did not 
>mean to propose this approach for a 2100/2200 but for an 
>R1800 instead. The idea would be to start from your 
>3MK approach on a R1800 but add the full flexibility of 
>gloss printing and toning, while still keeping 
>the advantages of the 3MK approach. 

>What would be your insight in this?

In general, I think the 1800 is about the best 13" platform we have now.  I
think it can support a number of approaches, including what you're
proposing.  You'll probably need 3 jets firing to hide any banding.  Whether
2 black ones and then the colors or an LK would be enough is something I
have not tested.  I agree with Carl that light inks are not really needed
for the 1800, on the other hand the full 260 RC inkset -- which uses light
inks but not as light as on the older printers -- gives amazing smoothness.
I must add, however, that the main if not only reason for the lightest 260
ink is because the Epson driver needs it.

With respect to glossy printing, the MIS UT-RC-PKN that I mixed for the 260
(also a 1.5 pl printer) makes one of the best glossy prints I've seen, even
just in BO mode on the 260.  I'm sure the 3-RC-PKN approach Carl is using on
the 1800 is even better.  Note that there is also a 260 RC-PKC black ink
that is 50% cooler than the PKN.  These cool inks can also be used on matte
paper to cool them down more if the straight Eboni is too warm.  While they
are pre-mixed ratios of PK, Cyan and Blue, it makes toning curves much
easier when inks are blended as opposed to separate.  It would be easy to
set up Eboni, PK, and PKN or PKC curves and then use sliders in QTR to get
whatever degree of coolness one wants.  On the other hand, for a sepia,
you'd need to include some warm color inks in the mix.

Note also that the RC-PKN and PKC use a cyan to blue ratio that is aimed at
the midtones.  That is, with the original PKN that I mixed for older
printers, I was just trying to get the best dmax I could with the original
PKN.  It contained way too much cyan for an appropriate midtone hue.
Actually, the PKN was not even the best dmax of the test inks I mixed.  The
dmax continued to increase as the color inks crossed over the 50% mark.  As
dye ink makers and watercolorists know well, the best looking black is not
pure carbon, but these others just will not last.  But the point here is, be
sure to use the 260 "UT-RC" versions of PKN listed at
http://www.inksupply.com/r260_blackandwhite.cfm  MIS calls the "cool" RC
inks "RCC" and the "neutral" inks "RCN", adding PK to signify the position.
Note that there are separate bulk boxes for Warm (pure carbon), Cool, and
Neutral inks -- cart and bulk.  These PK versions are appropriate for most
of the new Epson printers, but they are a lower load PK ink than is best for
the 2200 and older printers.

At any rate, with 8 slots, a 1.5 pl drop size, and QTR support, the 1800 can
do lots of different things.  I wish there was a large format version --
with easily re-fillable carts, of course.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: 2MK+2PK+ approach?

2007-12-10 by daniel.andron

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<list@...> wrote:
>
> I found that you don't really need the lighter inks and toners in the  
> 1800.  I'm now using 3 Eboni, 3 RCNTL-PKN (MIS neutral PK), and 1  
> glop.  This lets me print matte or glossy at will and I use warm or  
> cool papers to vary print hue.  The newer fiber papers like Harman's  
> Glossy Al yield beautiful B&W prints with the PKN in the 1800.
> 
Bonjour,
	
If I understood
- 3 Eboni for matte
or 3 RCNTL-PKN and glop for glossy.
Is RCNTL-PKN = the Mis Photo Black ESCR800-2-PK ?
Glop = ESCR800-2-QPT ?
What Positions for these inks ?
Thank.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: 2MK+2PK+ approach?

2007-12-10 by Carl Schofield

The part number for the 4 oz bulk bottle of MIS neutral PK is RC- 
NTL-4PK and is listed on this page:
http://www.inksupply.com/r260_blackandwhite.cfm
The Eboni and glop are on this page:
http://www.inksupply.com/r800ink_org.cfm

You can put the inks in any channels you wish, but to use the  
profiles I posted then use the ink positions listed in the comments  
header of each profile.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Dec 10, 2007, at 7:27 AM, daniel.andron wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <list@...> wrote:
>>
>> I found that you don't really need the lighter inks and toners in the
>> 1800.  I'm now using 3 Eboni, 3 RCNTL-PKN (MIS neutral PK), and 1
>> glop.  This lets me print matte or glossy at will and I use warm or
>> cool papers to vary print hue.  The newer fiber papers like Harman's
>> Glossy Al yield beautiful B&W prints with the PKN in the 1800.
>>
> Bonjour,
> 	
> If I understood
> - 3 Eboni for matte
> or 3 RCNTL-PKN and glop for glossy.
> Is RCNTL-PKN = the Mis Photo Black ESCR800-2-PK ?
> Glop = ESCR800-2-QPT ?
> What Positions for these inks ?
> Thank.
>

Re: 2MK+2PK+ approach?

2007-12-12 by ex0cute

Carl, Thank you for your help setting up the 3-PK ink approach. I 
have created a curve from you text profile for Red River Ultrapro 
Satin as a .qidf file. I also loaded the .quad file in the quad sub-
folder in quadtone RIP . However, can you explain what the .quad 
file does ? I want to change the ink position in some of Paul 
Rourk's 3-MK profiles so I can print both matt and gloss prints on 
my R1800, but I would like to know if I need to change the quad file 
in addition to updating the .qidf file.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<list@...> wrote:
>
> 
> The part number for the 4 oz bulk bottle of MIS neutral PK is RC- 
> NTL-4PK and is listed on this page:
> http://www.inksupply.com/r260_blackandwhite.cfm
> The Eboni and glop are on this page:
> http://www.inksupply.com/r800ink_org.cfm
> 
> You can put the inks in any channels you wish, but to use the  
> profiles I posted then use the ink positions listed in the 
comments  
> header of each profile.
> 
> Carl
> 
> 
> On Dec 10, 2007, at 7:27 AM, daniel.andron wrote:
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl 
Schofield
> > <list@> wrote:
> >>
> >> I found that you don't really need the lighter inks and toners 
in the
> >> 1800.  I'm now using 3 Eboni, 3 RCNTL-PKN (MIS neutral PK), and 
1
> >> glop.  This lets me print matte or glossy at will and I use 
warm or
> >> cool papers to vary print hue.  The newer fiber papers like 
Harman's
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >> Glossy Al yield beautiful B&W prints with the PKN in the 1800.
> >>
> > Bonjour,
> > 	
> > If I understood
> > - 3 Eboni for matte
> > or 3 RCNTL-PKN and glop for glossy.
> > Is RCNTL-PKN = the Mis Photo Black ESCR800-2-PK ?
> > Glop = ESCR800-2-QPT ?
> > What Positions for these inks ?
> > Thank.
> >
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: 2MK+2PK+ approach?

2007-12-12 by Carl Schofield

You need to do your editing to change ink positions in the.qidf files  
and then re-load the .qidf file which will automatically create a  
new .quad file which is used by QTR for printing.  I use a Mac so  
can't advise on how you load the .qidf files on a PC, but on the Mac  
you just put the .qidf files in a folder with the appropriate printer  
script and then run the script to load all of the .qidf files.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Dec 12, 2007, at 9:35 AM, ex0cute wrote:

> Carl, Thank you for your help setting up the 3-PK ink approach. I
> have created a curve from you text profile for Red River Ultrapro
> Satin as a .qidf file. I also loaded the .quad file in the quad sub-
> folder in quadtone RIP . However, can you explain what the .quad
> file does ? I want to change the ink position in some of Paul
> Rourk's 3-MK profiles so I can print both matt and gloss prints on
> my R1800, but I would like to know if I need to change the quad file
> in addition to updating the .qidf file.
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <list@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The part number for the 4 oz bulk bottle of MIS neutral PK is RC-
>> NTL-4PK and is listed on this page:
>> http://www.inksupply.com/r260_blackandwhite.cfm
>> The Eboni and glop are on this page:
>> http://www.inksupply.com/r800ink_org.cfm
>>
>> You can put the inks in any channels you wish, but to use the
>> profiles I posted then use the ink positions listed in the
> comments
>> header of each profile.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>> On Dec 10, 2007, at 7:27 AM, daniel.andron wrote:
>>
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl
> Schofield
>>> <list@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I found that you don't really need the lighter inks and toners
> in the
>>>> 1800.  I'm now using 3 Eboni, 3 RCNTL-PKN (MIS neutral PK), and
> 1
>>>> glop.  This lets me print matte or glossy at will and I use
> warm or
>>>> cool papers to vary print hue.  The newer fiber papers like
> Harman's
>>>> Glossy Al yield beautiful B&W prints with the PKN in the 1800.
>>>>
>>> Bonjour,
>>> 	
>>> If I understood
>>> - 3 Eboni for matte
>>> or 3 RCNTL-PKN and glop for glossy.
>>> Is RCNTL-PKN = the Mis Photo Black ESCR800-2-PK ?
>>> Glop = ESCR800-2-QPT ?
>>> What Positions for these inks ?
>>> Thank.
>>>
>>

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