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UT7 with 2200 problem

UT7 with 2200 problem

2007-01-04 by neilsphoto

I know I'm not the only one using the 2200 and UT7 here so someone
must encounter the same thing when changing out a low cart for a fresh
one.

After replacing a cart I seem to have to wait overnight for it to flow
ink well enough (or whatever else is happening) to get a clean nozzle
check and/or make a print.  No amount of cleaning cycles make it flow
better. I try making prints, bad ones to coax the ink to flow.  No good.

MIS used to suggest 2 cleaning cycles after replacement, or at least
that was printed on the box but it no longer is. 

I seem to remember that 2 years ago the UT7 carts were spongless? Is
that right.  Well now they aren't and the problem is worse. 

This isn't new.  This has always been a feature if UT7 in my experience.
OE color carts never do this. 

It gets better though.  Last night it was an LK cart replacement that
killed me, stopped me dead.  This morning the LK AND teh Mag cart
print broken patterns.

So who has this problem?  Have you found a solution?  CFS could maybe
prevent this as I'd stop changing carts but I can't imagine anything
but a mess when I have to install color carts for larger color prints.

Thanks

Neil

Re: UT7 with 2200 problem

2007-01-04 by Bob Marsolais

Neil,

I use a 1280 with spongeless cartridges and have the same problem.  I
attribute it to a small amount of air getting in the head during
cartridge changing.  I have found that minimizing the time there is no
cartridge installed helps reduce the problem.  In the past I've taped
up the empty cart before installing the new cart.  I'm now installing
the new cartridge first with better results.

Bob

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "neilsphoto"
<neilsphoto@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I know I'm not the only one using the 2200 and UT7 here so someone
> must encounter the same thing when changing out a low cart for a fresh
> one.
> 
> After replacing a cart I seem to have to wait overnight for it to flow
> ink well enough (or whatever else is happening) to get a clean nozzle
> check and/or make a print.  No amount of cleaning cycles make it flow
> better. I try making prints, bad ones to coax the ink to flow.  No good.
> 
> MIS used to suggest 2 cleaning cycles after replacement, or at least
> that was printed on the box but it no longer is. 
> 
> I seem to remember that 2 years ago the UT7 carts were spongless? Is
> that right.  Well now they aren't and the problem is worse. 
> 
> This isn't new.  This has always been a feature if UT7 in my experience.
> OE color carts never do this. 
> 
> It gets better though.  Last night it was an LK cart replacement that
> killed me, stopped me dead.  This morning the LK AND teh Mag cart
> print broken patterns.
> 
> So who has this problem?  Have you found a solution?  CFS could maybe
> prevent this as I'd stop changing carts but I can't imagine anything
> but a mess when I have to install color carts for larger color prints.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Neil
>

Re: UT7 with 2200 problem

2007-01-04 by xylonic2000

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
"neilsphoto" <neilsphoto@...> wrote:
>
> I know I'm not the only one using the 2200 and UT7 here so someone
> must encounter the same thing when changing out a low cart for a 
fresh
> one.
> 
> After replacing a cart I seem to have to wait overnight for it to 
flow
> ink well enough (or whatever else is happening) to get a clean 
nozzle
> check and/or make a print.  No amount of cleaning cycles make it 
flow
> better. I try making prints, bad ones to coax the ink to flow.  No 
good.
> 
> MIS used to suggest 2 cleaning cycles after replacement, or at least
> that was printed on the box but it no longer is. 
> 
> I seem to remember that 2 years ago the UT7 carts were spongless? Is
> that right.  Well now they aren't and the problem is worse. 
> 
> This isn't new.  This has always been a feature if UT7 in my 
experience.
> OE color carts never do this. 
> 
>(snip)
> Thanks
> 
> Neil
>
I have had the MIS (sponge) cartridges, charged with UT7 inks, in my 
2200 for over a year and I print frequently enough that all 
cartridges have been refilled at least once and most of them several 
times.  I have not encountered the problem you describe.

May there be some distinction in your method of refilling versus mine 
that introduces air to the system?  To refill a cartridge, after 
removing it, I first tightly stretch electrician's tape over the 
output port to have an air-tight seal.  The dainty MIS refill hole 
plug has been replaced by a 6-32 Allen head screw.  It is removed and 
a small, spring-loaded, clamp is placed on the empty tank to compress 
it slightly.  After filling a syringe with the proper ink, I hold it 
with the needle up and eliminate any air by carefully pushing the 
piston.  The needle of the syringe is placed close to the tank bottom 
(with the cartridge upright) and the ink introduced with the needle 
end always under ink.  (Of course, I am careful not to let air re-
enter the needle and syringe.)  Except for the first cc of ink, which 
is delivered slowly, I quickly empty the syringe.

With the ink delivered, I replace the Allen head screw and place a 
bit of masking tape over the screw location to assure an air-tight 
closure.  The clamp is then removed causing, I believe, a reduction 
of air pressure in the cartridge.  The SK11 (?) is then applied to 
the chip so the machine will know that the cartridge is full.

I immediately replace the cartridge in the 2200 after removing the 
electrician's tape.  An immediate nozzle check and subsequent 
printing have always been normal.  I have never used cleaning cycles 
after filling.  I recall, some time ago, that one of the inks failed 
to print in a nozzle check (which I perform at least once a week) and 
cleaning corrected that problem with two or three cycles.

Reinald

Reinald

RE: [Digital BW] UT7 with 2200 problem

2007-01-05 by Paul Roark

>...
> After replacing a cart I seem to have to wait overnight for 
>it to flow ink well enough (or whatever else is happening)
> to get a clean nozzle check and/or make a print.

It's probably air at the outlet.  This could be caused by a less than great
vacuum when loading the ink.  It may be that using a bottom fill adapter and
pulling a bit of ink out the outlet to "prime" the cartridge would work.  Of
course, it would also waste some ink.  I always prime the new carts I load
from the top because air is always trapped just above the outlet.  Once the
cart have been primed once, it's usually good for many re-fillings.

> No amount of cleaning cycles make it flow better.

The sponge will not release ink fast enough to support many cleaning cycles
in succession.  

> OE color carts never do this. 

Epson pulls a better vacuum, I believe.  Thus there is no air at the outlet.

The vast majority of 2200 carts that are half sponge have worked well for
me.  Occasionally one just does not seem to transfer ink from the reservoir
to the sponge correctly or the system is pulling air around the sponge as
opposed to pulling ink out of it.  This is usually only with a very old cart
or one that has run totally dry.

At any rate, I'm not 100% sure what the problem is, but I'm guessing air at
the outlet due to an imperfect vacuum on filling.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] UT7 with 2200 problem

2007-01-05 by neilsphoto

an great
> vacuum when loading the ink.  It may be that using a bottom fill
adapter and
> pulling a bit of ink out the outlet to "prime" the cartridge would
work.  Of
> course, it would also waste some ink.  I always prime the new carts
I load
> from the top because air is always trapped just above the outlet. 
Once the
> cart have been primed once, 


Paul

So it sounds like I need to buy some loader stuff.

So is the bottom or top loader thing you mention available?  Where?
MIS or do I need a syringe?  

MIS tech suggested an ink flow problem.  Check vent holes, did that. 
On the Piezo site in their FAQ they mention keeping the ink pad clean
and tell you how to clean it so the heads stay moist when parked, did
that too.

Ink feed makes sense but on every cart? Every time? 

While doing all this ink wasting trying to get a clean check for all 7
carts the yellow went low last night.  Guess what. I installed a new
one and got a nearly clear check from that cart.  By this morning I
have a 90% complete yellow cart check BUT all the others are good.

How will it work later?  It is 5:49 am.  Will I have 7 good checks at
5:49 pm?  I don't even know.

Thanks Paul

Neil

Re: UT7 with 2200 problem

2007-01-05 by Joost Horsten

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "neilsphoto" 
<neilsphoto@...> wrote:
>
> I know I'm not the only one using the 2200 and UT7 here so someone
> must encounter the same thing when changing out a low cart for a 
fresh
> one.
> 
> After replacing a cart I seem to have to wait overnight for it to 
flow
> ink well enough (or whatever else is happening) to get a clean 
nozzle
> check and/or make a print.  No amount of cleaning cycles make it 
flow
> better. I try making prints, bad ones to coax the ink to flow.  No 
good.
> 
> MIS used to suggest 2 cleaning cycles after replacement, or at least
> that was printed on the box but it no longer is. 
> 
> I seem to remember that 2 years ago the UT7 carts were spongless? Is
> that right.  Well now they aren't and the problem is worse. 
> 
> This isn't new.  This has always been a feature if UT7 in my 
experience.
> OE color carts never do this. 
> 
> It gets better though.  Last night it was an LK cart replacement 
that
> killed me, stopped me dead.  This morning the LK AND teh Mag cart
> print broken patterns.
> 
> So who has this problem?  Have you found a solution?  CFS could 
maybe
> prevent this as I'd stop changing carts but I can't imagine anything
> but a mess when I have to install color carts for larger color 
prints.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Neil
>
Hi Neil,

I'm using UT3D inks in a 2100 with spongeless cartridges from 
mandev.co.uk. I don't take all the measures that the others do. I 
just fill a syringe and fill the cartridge. I do run into the same 
problems as you have but only incase if I let the cartridge run 
completely empty. As a remedy I refill somewhat more often and than I 
have no problems whatsoever. But I'll definitely look into the 
suggestions made by the others myself.

Joost

RE: [Digital BW] UT7 with 2200 problem

2007-01-05 by Paul Roark

Neil,

>...
>So is the bottom or top loader thing you mention available? 

See http://www.inksupply.com/accessory.cfm?action=find&sub_cat=1

MIS has most of the accessories you'll need.  Filling these easy-refill
carts and MIS bulk ink lowers your ink costs to the point it becomes a minor
expense.

Buy some 10 cc syringes, the smallest number of bottom fill adapters, and
some needles.

You'll also need a chip resetter: http://www.inksupply.com/qb7.cfm

I use a little jeweler's screwdriver to pry out the stopper in the top of
the carts for refilling.

In addition to air in the ink, there could be junk on the head.  The wiper
is supposed to take care of that in cleaning, but I sometimes find a strip
of cloth bias tape with windex on it can be useful is wiping the head.  Be
sure there is no pile of dried ink on any of the sponge areas in the trough
the head goes through.  I had a pile on the left side cause problems a while
back.

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.

Re: [Digital BW] UT7 with 2200 problem

2007-01-05 by neilsphoto

Thanks Paul,

All the problems I'm having are not with carts I've filled. These are
new fresh just opened and filled by MIS carts.  Straight out of the
box they don't work till they've sat out (in the printer) like red
wine.  I guess they too must breath.

The time between remove one cart and install a fresh one is 5 seconds.
 I remove one with my left hand and the fresh one is already in my
right hand ready to install.

The stuff you link to below should work no matter who filled the carts
though.
Thanks

Neil
> Neil,
> 
> >...
> >So is the bottom or top loader thing you mention available? 
> 
> See http://www.inksupply.com/accessory.cfm?action=find&sub_cat=1
> 
> MIS has most of the accessories you'll need.  Filling these easy-refill
> carts and MIS bulk ink lowers your ink costs to the point it becomes
a minor
> expense.
> 
> Buy some 10 cc syringes, the smallest number of bottom fill
adapters, and
> some needles.
> 
> You'll also need a chip resetter: http://www.inksupply.com/qb7.cfm
> 
> I use a little jeweler's screwdriver to pry out the stopper in the
top of
> the carts for refilling.
> 
> In addition to air in the ink, there could be junk on the head.  The
wiper
> is supposed to take care of that in cleaning, but I sometimes find a
strip
> of cloth bias tape with windex on it can be useful is wiping the
head.  Be
> sure there is no pile of dried ink on any of the sponge areas in the
trough
> the head goes through.  I had a pile on the left side cause problems
a while
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> back.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Paul
> www.
>

RE: [Digital BW] UT7 with 2200 problem

2007-01-06 by Paul Roark

Neil,

>... These are new fresh just opened and filled by MIS carts. 
> Straight out of the box they don't work till they've sat 
>out ...

It sounds like air  in the outlet.  Do you store the carts such that the
outlet is down?

>The time between remove one cart and install a fresh one 
> is 5 seconds.

I doubt that is an issue.


Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] UT7 with 2200 problem

2007-01-06 by neilsphoto

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> Neil,
> 
> >... These are new fresh just opened and filled by MIS carts. 
> > Straight out of the box they don't work till they've sat 
> >out ...
> 
> It sounds like air  in the outlet.  Do you store the carts such that the
> outlet is down?


Yes I store the carts in an upright position, or outlet down.

So I've been printing tonight with all 7 carts working.  I got maybe a
1/2 dozen prints from several images.  Just testing to be sure all is
good and it is, or was.

Out of nowhere I got a really really bad print.  A nozzle check showed
that the Cyan cart was putting out nothing.  I did 2 cleaning passes
and it is barely putting out.  It is 80% full.  Why?  How does it go
from perfect to s*&t that fast.  It makes no sense.  I fully expect it
to be perfect in the morning.  Why not right?

At the moment I feel like dumping all this MIS stuff and going to the
7 ink Cone system.  A big reason not to is his system is for matt
paper only and I've really come to like these "air dried fiber" look
prints.

Either that or throw down for a 2400 and get on with it.  Right now I
need to again order more UT7 carts (I've run low wasting all this
time/ink) or bulk ink and start rolling my own. 

Neil

Re: [Digital BW] UT7 with 2200 problem

2007-01-06 by neilsphoto

> that the Cyan cart was putting out nothing.  I did 2 cleaning passes
> and it is barely putting out.  It is 80% full.  Why?  How does it go
> from perfect to s*&t that fast.  It makes no sense.  I fully expect it
> to be perfect in the morning.  Why not right?


So yes this morning the Cyan cart is again flowing.  My theory is that
after making six 10x7 Carbon toned prints the supply of the Cyan
position cart was dry.  So I had a Cyan cart, 80% full and yet no ink
flow to print with.

UT7 users know that when you go for a Carbon tone and add the Carbon
curve that it seems like 90% of what you see on screen goes Cyan.  So
there you go.  Not enough supply for demand.

Why?  That is the question.  Does the 2200 use vacuum to pull inl? If
so I have a leak of that vacuum.  If it is where the cart seals to the
printer it may be dirty. What should I clean it with? Windex?  MIS fluid?

MIS tech support has been really lacking.  You guys have my ideas than
they do.  I wish that weren't so.

Neil

Re: [Digital BW] UT7 with 2200 problem

2007-01-06 by Daniel Ridings

>  At the moment I feel like dumping all this MIS stuff and going to the
>  7 ink Cone system.  A big reason not to is his system is for matt
>  paper only and I've really come to like these "air dried fiber" look
>  prints.

Been there ... won't really solve many of your problems. There are
issues with the airvents not getting revealed with the Cone system,
resulting in no ink at all, unnecessary cleaning cycles and a rapid
emptying of that expensive fluid.

The results are ok. Not more impressive than the C86 with Ultratone
EZ, but that is not meant as a criticism. The C86 delivers. It is
meant as positive feedback.

But the Cone system is very expensive, no matter how you look at it.

I am coming to the conclusion that budget systems for b/w are moving
targets. You get a set-up, and before you know it, your printer is off
the market. The one you have breaks down (I am on my third C86 with no
more in reserve) and you can't replace it. You have to find another
(keep abreast with the combinations). The R220? Ok. Friend of mine
just bought the last one in a private sale here in Sweden, so it is no
longer available. So you try and figure out which of the current epson
models take the same inks as the R220. I haven't figured that one out
yet.

This has actually driven me back into the darkroom. That is not a bad
thing with nice papers coming out of Foma and Forte, to name just a
couple.

The only alternative for digital b/w, in my conclusion, is to buy into
a professional system that is not just a marketing ploy to get you to
buy cartridges. The big epson machines. They seem to deliver on a long
term basis.

Daniel Ridings
http://www.dlridings.com/paw2006

Re: [Digital BW] UT7 with 2200 problem

2007-01-06 by djon43

Granted UT7 carts waste ink in cleaning cycles...they're an expensive
luxury. Wish it wasn't so. 

What driver are you using?

If QTR, do you have similar problems with Epson driver or Black-Only? 

I've concluded that with UT7, Epson's driver is FAR better than QTR
for smooth skin tones: as a bonus I waste a LOT less ink, paper, and
tears struggling against microbanding. 

(Epson's driver is also a LOT more photographic/realistic than
Black-Only, since I'm printing scans of film, post processed with CS2,
rather than trying to fake grain with digicam files. My digital
workflow feels like my old darkroom workflow with polycontrast filters)






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "neilsphoto"
<neilsphoto@...> wrote:
>
> 
> > that the Cyan cart was putting out nothing.  I did 2 cleaning passes
> > and it is barely putting out.  It is 80% full.  Why?  How does it go
> > from perfect to s*&t that fast.  It makes no sense.  I fully expect it
> > to be perfect in the morning.  Why not right?
> 
> 
> So yes this morning the Cyan cart is again flowing.  My theory is that
> after making six 10x7 Carbon toned prints the supply of the Cyan
> position cart was dry.  So I had a Cyan cart, 80% full and yet no ink
> flow to print with.
> 
> UT7 users know that when you go for a Carbon tone and add the Carbon
> curve that it seems like 90% of what you see on screen goes Cyan.  So
> there you go.  Not enough supply for demand.
> 
> Why?  That is the question.  Does the 2200 use vacuum to pull inl? If
> so I have a leak of that vacuum.  If it is where the cart seals to the
> printer it may be dirty. What should I clean it with? Windex?  MIS
fluid?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> MIS tech support has been really lacking.  You guys have my ideas than
> they do.  I wish that weren't so.
> 
> Neil
>

Re: UT7 with 2200 problem

2007-01-07 by Neil Swanson

Thanks for the replys.  My problems are with the carts
only, not drivers, software or hardware (except
carts).

I have no complaints with tresults when it works. 
Also BO is beautiful.

I use the Epson driver and apply the curves to be the
tones I want.

Yesterday in frustration I downloaded the QTR and
reinstalled some open Epson color carts. W/o even a
cleaning cycle I got perfect nozzle checks.

With no effort at all I got some nice QTR UC prints in
varying tones. I coldn't have been easier.

I'm now printing some tests using p-luster for proofs
and trying the Crane/Hana/Innova fiber gloss papers to
see how they compare.

As long as I like what I see with QTR UC7 (so far I
do)the 2200 will be my color/BO/QTR B&W printer all
rolled into one. 

Neil

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