Digital BW, The Print

I have researched this approach extensively on both Paul's site and 
the MIS site and still have a few questions.

1.  I am assuming that anything working for the 2400/ABW would also 
work on the 4800/ABW (using, of course, proper carts and bulk ink for 
the 4800).
2.  Is the proposal to simply swap out the Epson yellow and replace 
it with the MIS EZWRM yellow and print through the ABW driver 
*without* RIP or curves?  (I am assuming an ICC profile "on top" of 
the ABW driver.)
3.  Am I correct that the MIS ink part number for this procedure is 
the "EZWRM-[quantity]-Y"?
4.  While I know that the cyan is fairly stable and that Paul thinks 
highly of the stability of the Epson magenta, is the removal of the 
Epson yellow that significant in reducing the total amount of color 
ink used by the ABW driver. 

I should add that I have no interest in using the 4800 for color 
work, so the limited gamut of the MIS yellow is not an issue for me.

Many thanks.
Walt

Walt,

>...
>2. Is the proposal to simply swap out the Epson yellow and 
>replace it with the MIS EZWRM yellow and print through the 
>ABW driver *without* RIP or curves? 

Yes, it's for a very simple, ABW-controlled setup that should produce the
best B&W results.  A rip can do essentially the same thing.

>(I am assuming an ICC profile "on top" of the ABW driver.)

It could be used.  Frankly, however, I managed to find settings that got me
very close to the standard Gray Gamma 2.2 ramp.

>3. Am I correct that the MIS ink part number for this 
>procedure is the "EZWRM-[quantity]-Y"?

Yes.  The EZW-Y chip actually works in the 2400.  (May tell you something
about the C88 and 2400 inks.)  

>4. While I know that the cyan is fairly stable and that Paul 
>thinks highly of the stability of the Epson magenta, 

(Relatively.)

>is the removal of the Epson yellow that significant in 
>reducing the total amount of color ink used by the ABW driver. 

Compare the 1600 dpi scans here:
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/2400_RGB_Y=EZW_1600-DPI.jpg

The ABW with Y=EZW is considerably smoother than the ABW with yellow
installed.  With the yellow removed, you slide the ABW controls up toward
the yellow end substantially to get the same, for example, neutral, print.
This cuts out a lot of the cyan and magenta.  So, it's not just that the
yellow is gone, but also the LC and LM that were used too offset it are also
gone.  This improves smoothness, longevity, and metamerism.  (And it makes
me feel better knowing that the least amount of color pigs are used.)

>I should add that I have no interest in using the 4800 for
> color work, so the limited gamut of the MIS yellow is not 
>an issue for me.

Obviously if one want to use the 4800 for color, I'd recommend a rip instead
of the Y=Carbon ABW approach.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul

I have been using this setup for a few weeks now and think that the BW prints I'm getting 
are the best todate. I'm using Roy's ICC program to profile and Epsons ABW mode. Simple !

You mentioned that you slide the ABW controls up towards yellow end substantially, what 
do you mean by substantially. I'm using Hahnemuhle FineArt Pearl and Ilford Smooth Pearl. 
The settings that I am using are H+03/V+12 and H+04/V+16 respectively. These give 
what appear to me as neutral prints. Interestingly with standard yellow cart the settings 
would have been something like H+05/V-10. However I have nothing else to compare 
them with apart from past prints. When you work on your own its hard to judge if you have 
got it right. When I compare my past prints with my present ones the old prints look 
terrible !! At the time I thought they were OK. Would appreciate any comments.

Regards Peter

> 
> The ABW with Y=EZW is considerably smoother than the ABW with yellow
> installed.  With the yellow removed, you slide the ABW controls up toward
> the yellow end substantially to get the same, for example, neutral, print.
> This cuts out a lot of the cyan and magenta.  So, it's not just that the
> yellow is gone, but also the LC and LM that were used too offset it are also
> gone.  This improves smoothness, longevity, and metamerism.  (And it makes
> me feel better knowing that the least amount of color pigs are used.)

Paul,

I know you've made great strides in your testing and seem to have 
settled on MIS EZW in place of yellow.  Just out of curiousity, did 
you ever try MIS EZN? I have some and thought about giving it a try, 
but not if you've already determined that it's not a good approach.

BTW, I have to compliment you on your insight and dilligence in this 
area!

Thanks,
David

David,

>I know you've made great strides in your testing and seem to have 
>settled on MIS EZW in place of yellow. 
>... did you ever try MIS EZN? 

I did not try it.  The ABW mode is geared to having yellow in the yellow
position.  The EZW, being pure carbon, is like a very low gamut yellow in
terms of its color.  Even with this warm carbon in the Y spot, however, the
ABW controls are somewhat limited in the extent to which they can reach the
warm tones.  If cool EZN were put in the Y position, I think you would get
nice cold tones, but you would probably not be able to achieve a neutral
tone at all.  The ABW mode driver puts all the colors -- cmY -- in the
image, and if Y = EZN all of those would be cool.  So, I'd stick to EZW for
a more useable tonal range from the ABW mode controls.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks, Paul.  now that you explain it, it makes sense.
David

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> David,
> 
> >I know you've made great strides in your testing and seem to have 
> >settled on MIS EZW in place of yellow. 
> >... did you ever try MIS EZN? 
> 
> I did not try it.  The ABW mode is geared to having yellow in the 
yellow
> position.  The EZW, being pure carbon, is like a very low gamut 
yellow in
> terms of its color.  Even with this warm carbon in the Y spot, 
however, the
> ABW controls are somewhat limited in the extent to which they can 
reach the
> warm tones.  If cool EZN were put in the Y position, I think you 
would get
> nice cold tones, but you would probably not be able to achieve a 
neutral
> tone at all.  The ABW mode driver puts all the colors -- cmY -- in 
the
> image, and if Y = EZN all of those would be cool.  So, I'd stick 
to EZW for

> a more useable tonal range from the ABW mode controls.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Paul
I went to your site and poked around a bit. Interesting. I have a  
couple questions.

You state:  "Carbon on cotton" is now my medium of choice for the  
most archival B&W images."

But then I find a page where you pitch Matte BW from Premier which is  
alpha cellulose, and state that you always have a roll on board in  
your 7500. Do you just use this paper/printer for proofing and chump  
work?

Also you have a paper there on the MIS ink set that is dated 11-24-06  
which is in the future :=) Just thought you'd like to know.

Clark

On Nov 16, 2006, at 7:41 AM, Paul Roark wrote:

> David,
>
> >I know you've made great strides in your testing and seem to have
> >settled on MIS EZW in place of yellow.
> >... did you ever try MIS EZN?
>
> I did not try it. The ABW mode is geared to having yellow in the  
> yellow
> position. The EZW, being pure carbon, is like a very low gamut  
> yellow in
> terms of its color. Even with this warm carbon in the Y spot,  
> however, the
> ABW controls are somewhat limited in the extent to which they can  
> reach the
> warm tones. If cool EZN were put in the Y position, I think you  
> would get
> nice cold tones, but you would probably not be able to achieve a  
> neutral
> tone at all. The ABW mode driver puts all the colors -- cmY -- in the
> image, and if Y = EZN all of those would be cool. So, I'd stick to  
> EZW for
> a more useable tonal range from the ABW mode controls.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clark,

>You state: "Carbon on cotton" is now my medium of choice 
> for the most archival B&W images."

> But then I find a page where you pitch Matte BW from Premier 
> which is alpha cellulose, ...

Cotton is cellulose.  Alpha cellulose should also be pure cellulose.  The
point is really to avoid papers like EEM that are acidic due to them not
being pure cellulose.  The other problem is that with non-cotton papers you
have to put more faith in the seller that they really have gotten virtually
all the lignin out.  Unfortunately, there does not seem to be any good,
simple test for lignin.  So, yes, cotton is the safest, but economic reality
and the need to produce prints reliably that look good must also be figured
in. 

> and state that you always have a roll on board in 
> your 7500. 

Well, not always, but for now that is what is on the 7500.  I would rather
have pure cotton there but at $0.30 per sq. ft. v. $1.66 per sq. ft. for
cotton that prints as well, I'm just not willing to pay that difference.
Wet darkroom, silver print paper was/is alpha cellulose.  It's not bad
paper.

>Also you have a paper there on the MIS ink set that is dated 
> 11-24-06 ...

Strange how a mistake like that can get through the legions of editors ...

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Nov 16, 2006, at 10:18 PM, Paul Roark wrote:
 >The
 >point is really to avoid papers like EEM that are acidic due to  
them not
 >being pure cellulose.

Makes you wonder how Wilhelm/Epson come up with 75 years for EEM.


 >I would rather
 >have pure cotton there but at $0.30 per sq. ft. v. $1.66 per sq.  
ft. for
 >cotton that prints as well, I'm just not willing to pay that  
difference.

Have you found that you can proof on the Matte BW and then get  
exactly the same results on cotton for your final prints?

Clark

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> On Nov 16, 2006, at 10:18 PM, Paul Roark wrote:
>> The point is really to avoid papers like EEM that are 
>> acidic due to them not being pure cellulose.

>Makes you wonder how Wilhelm/Epson come up with 75 years for EEM.

I think EEM actually does much better in terms of just fade resistance, but
Wilhelm limits the reported years of display due to the yellowing he's seen
in the accelerated aging tests.  In my tests I get similar results.
However, I don't go to the end points.  I'm interested in what happens in,
say, 20 years.  At that point the EEM images have not faded more, but the
pigments appear to have experienced a higher tonal shift than an acid free
paper.  So, I think there may be an effect on the pigments aside from the
ultimate paper yellowing (and OBA burnout that all brightened papers
experience).

>>I would rather have pure cotton there but at $0.30 per sq. ft. 
>> v. $1.66 per sq. ft. for cotton that prints as well, 
>> I'm just not willing to pay that difference.

> Have you found that you can proof on the Matte BW and then 
> get exactly the same results on cotton for your final prints?

There are always small differences, for example the brightness of the paper.

I might note that while we debate the really minute quality differences
among some of the better printer and ink combinations, the papers are major
variables that have a lot of room for improvement.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> Have you found that you can proof on the Matte BW and then 
> get exactly the same results on cotton for your final prints?

I should add that I think Matte BW paper is good for a final print.  I used
that paper and the profile I outlined at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/PM_Split_Tone.pdf to print my "Sunburst"
photo.  ("Sunburst" is currently on my home page at
http://home1.gte.net/res0a2zt/photos.html (aka, www.PaulRoark.com )  A 32 x
16 inch version of the print on Matte BW paper will be on display at the
local Elverhoj Museum  (see http://www.elverhoj.org/exhibits.html ) for a
couple of months.  I'm curious myself how it'll look.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com