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2006-03-08 by Olivier
How would you proceed to produce a print with pure BW parts and some colored ones on a 9800 loaded with K3. QTR alone can not do it, Imageprint seems to handle this but is very expensive. I've not look at Qimage, but to my understanding it's not designed for this. Any suggestion except a first class color profile (uncontrolable colors will still be there) or the expensive Imageprint ? Thanks. Olivier
2006-03-08 by Tom Baker
The problem with doing this is that the image has to be printed as a color image instead of a b&w. In the past the b&w always came out with an undesirable color cast. With the new K3 inks this may be more doable with the Epson driver, but I haven't heard any comments on this.
Imageprint does a very good job of this.
The best bet would be to set up an image and give it a try.
Tom Baker
Olivier <odesmais@...> wrote:
How would you proceed to produce a print with pure BW parts and some colored ones on a 9800 loaded with K3.
QTR alone can not do it, Imageprint seems to handle this but is very expensive. I've not look at Qimage, but to my understanding it's not designed for this.
Any suggestion except a first class color profile (uncontrolable colors will still be there) or the expensive Imageprint ?
Thanks.
Olivier
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2006-03-09 by El Estudio
Olivier, FWIW, I've been doing 90% B & W and 10% color images with a 9800 on William Turner and Innova PSC with just the Epson driver and it's in-box profiles with EXCELLENT results. I could profile it and surely get a much better result but have not found it necessary. Perfectly neutral B & W and color with great saturation! Pablo --- Olivier <odesmais@...> wrote: > How would you proceed to produce a print with pure > BW parts and some colored ones on a 9800 loaded > with K3. > > QTR alone can not do it, Imageprint seems to handle > this but is very expensive. I've not look at Qimage, > but to my understanding it's not designed for this. > > Any suggestion except a first class color profile > (uncontrolable colors will still be there) or the > expensive Imageprint ? > > Thanks. > > Olivier > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
2006-03-09 by Frank Kolwicz
Olivier, It may sound or be impractical, but I've done this most effectively by printing in two passes, one for B&W and one for color. I've even done it with registration on two different printers, but that was a lot of work and I found that for my purposes it was unnecessary. Separating the image allows control over the B&W that I think can get seriously blunted if done in a single operation, either by Photoshop's handling of the combined data or the printer driver. The practical way I've found requires that the print either be cropped by cutting to within the image, leaving a borderless print or by mounting under an overmat that cuts off the areas where the blended prints don't match perfectly and imagery that allows the colors to be blurred and printed lightly, like a gentle wash over the B&W framework. I'm sure there are other way to use this process, but that's what I use it for. If you need good registration, close to 1 pixel, it is possible but requires adding a horizontal adjustment shim to one of the printers, putting registration marks on the leading edge of every print and a lot of playing around loading the paper for vertical alignment before each print. Even with such care I only got successful registration about once in 3 to 5 prints. Frank Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 21:52:23 -0000
From: "Olivier" <odesmais@...> Subject: Blending BW and color in a single print How would you proceed to produce a print with pure BW parts and some colored ones on a 9800 loaded with K3. QTR alone can not do it, Imageprint seems to handle this but is very expensive. I've not look at Qimage, but to my understanding it's not designed for this. Any suggestion except a first class color profile (uncontrolable colors will still be there) or the expensive Imageprint ? Thanks. Olivier
2006-03-09 by Tina Manley
At 12:42 PM 3/9/2006, you wrote: >If you need good registration, close to 1 pixel, it is possible but >requires adding a horizontal adjustment shim to one of the printers, >putting registration marks on the leading edge of every print and a >lot of playing around loading the paper for vertical alignment >before each print. Even with such care I only got successful >registration about once in 3 to 5 prints. > >Frank ImagePrint can print BW and color in a single print easily. It seems to me that if you do a lot of BW and color combined, you would save enough in wasted paper and ink to more than pay for ImagePrint. Tina Tina Manley, ASMP http://www.tinamanley.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-03-09 by William Wilson
There were a few members looking for a UK supplier of Solux lamps http://www.triwholesale.co.uk/solux.htm have these from ?7.95 each. William [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-03-09 by Clayton Price
> From: Frank Kolwicz <kolwicz@...> wrote: > > It may sound or be impractical, but I've done this most effectively by > printing in two passes, one for B&W and one for color. I've even done > it with registration on two different printers, but that was a lot of > work and I found that for my purposes it was unnecessary. > > Separating the image allows control over the B&W that I think can get > seriously blunted if done in a single operation, either by Photoshop's > handling of the combined data or the printer driver. > Perhaps I'm not understanding the premise here, but I've done it two ways since inkjet printers were invented, and for many years before that in the darkroom with masking and pin registration for multiple exposures on 8X10 and 11X14 Ektachrome duping film. Now believe me, that was difficult! As Frank has written, I too have done multiple passes on the inkjet printer (2200) and the main problem was registration. However, unless you want to use a black inkset for one pass, and color inkset for the second, IMHO, there isn't a great need to even mess with registration at all. Most of my commercial work for 20 + years and some of my fine art work are photo collage. As a result I've often combined color and B&W, in one photo shop file, with multiple layers. Usually the base image is gray scale, and some elements are color. So I'll maximize the gray scale image to print neutral as an RGB file. Then I'll add the color elements as separate layers, and test print until the colors are exactly what I'm looking for, without touching any of the curves regulating the B&W portion. If you have good calibration, this is not too difficult to accomplish. When it all looks good, I'll flatten the file, which usually is for 30X40, and print smaller test sections of it on the 2200. When correct, I send out for large prints on a 9600, and they usually work out even better, because of the superior paper transport on that machine. I've not tried this with my 2400, with large prints on the 9800 yet, but I expect the results will be even better. Warning: the files get very large - sometimes over 3 Gb, so this is a very slow process! Clay Price
2006-03-09 by Olivier
Thanks to all for the interest and help. I see a real problem in operating in 2 passes : the 'trick' appears obvious. As for Imageprint, thinking it twice, if K LK and LLK show tones variations as it can be suspected I'll be left with BO (e.g. K only) and I'm not sure K dots will not be disturbing vs less visible color ones. One thing that appears clear is that BW and color will be processed differently probably with 2 different profile. In fact since greyscale neutrality is a subjectif concept (even disregarding paper issue), I start wondering if the easiest would not be to slightly tone the BW part. To optimise BW I'll be using a BW profil then turn it RVB, add a slight tone amd mix this with the color-profiled color parts. Am I right assuming a BW profil vs profiling all with a Col profil should get me a smoother, more neutral (unitone) and more contrasty greyscale. I'm tempted to think a BW profil will call for Ks more consistenly based on equal RVB values (even if a slight tint is added to the BW part ot hide undesirables casts) sent to the driver.
2006-03-10 by Frank Kolwicz
Thanks for the reply, Tina, but does ImagePrint actually apply different controls to printing B&W and color simultaneously? I wanted to be able to make different adjustments in the two areas and not have them recombined in some "magic" way during printing. I know Photoshop does this with layers, that's how I make my separated images, but I don't know what happens to those different layers when printed simultaneously. I no longer waste paper as I have made a workflow that eliminates the need for registration. Frank Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 13:01:34 -0500
From: Tina Manley <images@...> Subject: Re: Blending BW and color in a single print At 12:42 PM 3/9/2006, you wrote: ImagePrint can print BW and color in a single print easily. It seems to me that if you do a lot of BW and color combined, you would save enough in wasted paper and ink to more than pay for ImagePrint. Tina
2006-03-10 by Tina Manley
At 09:09 PM 3/9/2006, you wrote: >Thanks for the reply, Tina, but does ImagePrint actually apply >different controls to printing B&W and color simultaneously? I'm not sure what kind of "magic" they use but here is what the manual says: "Equal channel RGB images with colored highlights can be printed using our grayscale technology for the neutral portions, while the color portions use our color profiles. The Colorize B/W field becomes active when you choose a Gray profile in the Printer/Paper field. With a gray profile chosen, then choosing a color profile in the Colorize B/W field will allow you to use ImagePrint's colorize feature. This feature will cause the black and white areas of the print to be output using the Gray profile, while the color areas will be printed using the color profile selected in the Colorize B/W field." You end up using two profiles, one for black and white and one for color. It does work but I don't know how. Tina Tina Manley, ASMP http://www.tinamanley.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-03-10 by Eric Neilsen Photography
I find that working with a single color space and the B&W and colored areas of a file, I get better results without IP doing the coloration. It is quite simple to use the coloration feature in IP, but I found that IP really allows for something that is harder, though not unobtainable, split tones. I much prefer the workflow with the Epson driver and the 4800, than I was getting with IP and a 7600. Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 http://e.neilsen.home.att.net http://ericneilsenphotography.com _____
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tina Manley Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 8:56 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:Re: Blending BW and color in a single print At 09:09 PM 3/9/2006, you wrote: >Thanks for the reply, Tina, but does ImagePrint actually apply >different controls to printing B&W and color simultaneously? I'm not sure what kind of "magic" they use but here is what the manual says: "Equal channel RGB images with colored highlights can be printed using our grayscale technology for the neutral portions, while the color portions use our color profiles. The Colorize B/W field becomes active when you choose a Gray profile in the Printer/Paper field. With a gray profile chosen, then choosing a color profile in the Colorize B/W field will allow you to use ImagePrint's colorize feature. This feature will cause the black and white areas of the print to be output using the Gray profile, while the color areas will be printed using the color profile selected in the Colorize B/W field." You end up using two profiles, one for black and white and one for color. It does work but I don't know how. Tina Tina Manley, ASMP http://www.tinamanley.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 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2006-03-10 by Olivier
> > I'm not sure what kind of "magic" they use but here is what the > manual says: "Equal channel RGB images with colored highlights can > be printed using our grayscale technology for the neutral portions, > while the color portions use our color profiles. The Colorize B/W > field becomes active when you choose a Gray profile in the > Printer/Paper field. With a gray profile chosen, then choosing a > color profile in the Colorize B/W field will allow you to use > ImagePrint's colorize feature. This feature will cause the black and > white areas of the print to be output using the Gray profile, while > the color areas will be printed using the color profile selected in > the Colorize B/W field." > > You end up using two profiles, one for black and white and one for > color. It does work but I don't know how. > Tina, thanks for your input in the discussion. So if I follow the above, in fact it's just a multi-profiling process ; it is not done at the hardware level e.g. by only driving Ks heads instead of all col. heads ? Olivier
2006-03-10 by Tina Manley
At 01:25 AM 3/10/2006, you wrote: >Tina, thanks for your input in the discussion. So if I follow the >above, in fact it's just a multi-profiling process ; it is not done at >the hardware level e.g. by only driving Ks heads instead of all col. >heads ? > >Olivier I have no idea, Olivier. I just follow the directions and it works. There is an ImagePrint forum that might have more information in the archives, though. Tina Tina Manley, ASMP http://www.tinamanley.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-03-10 by Olivier
> > I have no idea, Olivier. I just follow the directions and it > works. There is an ImagePrint forum that might have more information > in the archives, though. > > Tina > > Tina Manley, ASMP > http://www.tinamanley.com Thanks Tina. Do you mind me asking if you have color dots in the BW- only parts ? Olivier
2006-03-10 by Larry Wangelin
Olivier, You will always have color dots in B&W with ImagePrint. I have a 2200 with ImagePrint and there is a surprisingly, to me, a large amount of cyan used in the highlight area. Larry
On Mar 10, 2006, at 5:44 AM, Olivier wrote: > Do you mind me asking if you have color dots in the BW- > only parts ?
2006-03-10 by Tina Manley
At 06:44 AM 3/10/2006, you wrote: >Thanks Tina. Do you mind me asking if you have color dots in the BW- >only parts ? > >Olivier No, none at all. It's perfectly neutral. With the split toning you can see color in the B/W but the results are beautiful. Tina Tina Manley, ASMP http://www.tinamanley.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-03-11 by Olivier
Having read all posts (thanks) and thought about it, I came to a possible workflow based on not using IP and trying to actually simulated ABW. Can someone comments on the below : All is done in AdobeRVB, G2.2 working space. Colored parts of the image and BW ones are separated onto 2 doccuments. BW doc is converted to a BW profile in the intent of retaining strict greyscale values and profiling the output. This is then turned into RVB. To cope with "neutrality" (whether paper tint, ink tint...) and toning capability; a first simple "fill-in with color" layer is added with a fusion mask of the RVB channel (that gives a greyscale mask of the image to the color layer). First color is thus appplied only to highlights and adjustable with opacity variations. This could also serve for toning. A second layer of the same nature (fill-in with color) is added with a negative of the RVB fusion mask to possibly colorize shadows and adjust (if needed) tone variations in this part of the image. The BW image is now RVB, BW-profile-converted with capabilities for toning in all needed ways. That should simulated ABW (and eventually IP) to the closest way I could figure out. RVB doc is simply converted with a usual color profile. BW doc is paste onto the RVB one (both are RVB tagged), and this can be printed "same as source", icm off. Softproofing is no longer available, but I can't find a way of preserving it either than full color management workflow which will not allow BW profiling from which I expect greater linearity and smoothness of the greyscale and fine toning capabilities with the layers. Thinking as much as I could, I'm expecting this would be coping with all the profiling issues, neutrality-toning ones, one single pass, and contrast balance of the all output. Where I'm unsure (because I have limited knwoledge of it) is the coping of GCR. My undertsanding of Tyler's post was that with a BW profile I'm to expect a more contrasty BW part than RVB part (black generation being stronger in the BW part ?). If so the color layers would eventually "hide" this. Please comment/correct if you feel like it. Olivier
2006-03-11 by Ernst Dinkla
Olivier wrote:
> Having read all posts (thanks) and thought about it, I came to a
> possible workflow based on not using IP and trying to actually
> simulated ABW.
>
> Can someone comments on the below :
>
> All is done in AdobeRVB, G2.2 working space.
> Colored parts of the image and BW ones are separated onto 2
> doccuments.
>
> BW doc is converted to a BW profile in the intent of retaining strict
> greyscale values and profiling the output. This is then turned into
> RVB.
> To cope with "neutrality" (whether paper tint, ink tint...) and
> toning capability; a first simple "fill-in with color" layer is added
> with a fusion mask of the RVB channel (that gives a greyscale mask of
> the image to the color layer). First color is thus appplied only to
> highlights and adjustable with opacity variations. This could also
> serve for toning. A second layer of the same nature (fill-in with
> color) is added with a negative of the RVB fusion mask to possibly
> colorize shadows and adjust (if needed) tone variations in this part
> of the image.
>
> The BW image is now RVB, BW-profile-converted with capabilities for
> toning in all needed ways. That should simulated ABW (and eventually
> IP) to the closest way I could figure out.
>
> RVB doc is simply converted with a usual color profile.
>
> BW doc is paste onto the RVB one (both are RVB tagged), and this can
> be printed "same as source", icm off. Softproofing is no longer
> available, but I can't find a way of preserving it either than full
> color management workflow which will not allow BW profiling from
> which I expect greater linearity and smoothness of the greyscale and
> fine toning capabilities with the layers.
>
> Thinking as much as I could, I'm expecting this would be coping with
> all the profiling issues, neutrality-toning ones, one single pass,
> and contrast balance of the all output.
>
> Where I'm unsure (because I have limited knwoledge of it) is the
> coping of GCR. My undertsanding of Tyler's post was that with a BW
> profile I'm to expect a more contrasty BW part than RVB part (black
> generation being stronger in the BW part ?). If so the color layers
> would eventually "hide" this.
>
> Please comment/correct if you feel like it.
>
> Olivier
Olivier,
RVB, exchanging Green for a Violet ? :-)
I haven't read it carefully but there's no chance to
circumvent the paper settings in the RGB profiled Epson driver
system. Based on that you will always get the same black
generation + composite grey elements for both color RGB and
Greyscale images if printed in one run. What you are thinking
of would be possible in a CMYK profiled RIP. It would also be
possible with the Epson driver if you split the printrun in
two: one for the greyscale with ABW (still using more
composite greys though than QTR but less than in Epson color
mode) and one for RGB color images.
Given the complexity of your approach I think you will get
more predictable results with a good profile and using RGB B&W
images like C.D.Tobie suggested in his first message. My
comments were sketching an ideal RIP solution that doesn't exist.
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )2006-03-11 by Tom Baker
Olivier -
It seems you're over thinking this. If you are going to us IP let it do the work. You can have toned b&w prints with color areas just by using the IP profiles and printing tools. It's really neat and easy. The results for the b&w with or without the added color are exactly the same. So, you can have any type of b&w you want.
Tom Baker
Olivier <odesmais@...> wrote:
Having read all posts (thanks) and thought about it, I came to a
possible workflow based on not using IP and trying to actually
simulated ABW.
Can someone comments on the below :
All is done in AdobeRVB, G2.2 working space.
Colored parts of the image and BW ones are separated onto 2
doccuments.
BW doc is converted to a BW profile in the intent of retaining strict
greyscale values and profiling the output. This is then turned into
RVB.
To cope with "neutrality" (whether paper tint, ink tint...) and
toning capability; a first simple "fill-in with color" layer is added
with a fusion mask of the RVB channel (that gives a greyscale mask of
the image to the color layer). First color is thus appplied only to
highlights and adjustable with opacity variations. This could also
serve for toning. A second layer of the same nature (fill-in with
color) is added with a negative of the RVB fusion mask to possibly
colorize shadows and adjust (if needed) tone variations in this part
of the image.
The BW image is now RVB, BW-profile-converted with capabilities for
toning in all needed ways. That should simulated ABW (and eventually
IP) to the closest way I could figure out.
RVB doc is simply converted with a usual color profile.
BW doc is paste onto the RVB one (both are RVB tagged), and this can
be printed "same as source", icm off. Softproofing is no longer
available, but I can't find a way of preserving it either than full
color management workflow which will not allow BW profiling from
which I expect greater linearity and smoothness of the greyscale and
fine toning capabilities with the layers.
Thinking as much as I could, I'm expecting this would be coping with
all the profiling issues, neutrality-toning ones, one single pass,
and contrast balance of the all output.
Where I'm unsure (because I have limited knwoledge of it) is the
coping of GCR. My undertsanding of Tyler's post was that with a BW
profile I'm to expect a more contrasty BW part than RVB part (black
generation being stronger in the BW part ?). If so the color layers
would eventually "hide" this.
Please comment/correct if you feel like it.
Olivier
Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2006-03-11 by Tyler Boley
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier" <odesmais@...> wrote: snip > >...My undertsanding of Tyler's post was that with a BW > profile I'm to expect a more contrasty BW part than RVB part (black > generation being stronger in the BW part ?). If so the color layers > would eventually "hide" this. No, my post was really an elaboration of what Ernst suggested. It really doesn't matter though, as it sounds like you are using the RGB driver and will have access to RGB profiles. My suggestion involved using a CMYK RIP, and making specialized profiles, it really just confused the issue. In fact, I'd bet a month's worth of wind that it's exactly what IP is doing anyway under the hood. As Ernst said, David Tobie's suggestion of a good RGB profile and simply desaturating areas you want to be B&W, or editing the file in any way you want, is really the way to go with the Epdon driver. These days, with your 9800's 3 Ks and long GCR, you'd be hard pressed to see the difference in that B&W portion with the slightly longer 100% GCR. I'd say get a great profile, make your file any way you want, and just print it! TYler