Digital BW, The Print

What type of calibration system is recommended for b&w work?

thanks in advance,

josh

> 
> What type of calibration system is recommended for b&w work?
> 

Most will say that a well-profiled monitor, using Spyder2Pro (which I have)
or equivalent is required.  I found that for B&W the Adobe Gamma, done
carefully, did a good job if grayscale is all one is judging.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

In a message dated 3/3/06 11:22:40 PM, paul.roark@... writes:


> 
> Most will say that a well-profiled monitor, using Spyder2Pro (which I have)
> or equivalent is required.  I found that for B&W the Adobe Gamma, done
> carefully, did a good job if grayscale is all one is judging.
> 
For black and white visual monitor calibrators are... more acceptable? less 
unacceptable? something like that... than for color work. But this is still 
predicated on using a CRT. You need to effectively set you blackpoint to avoid 
clipping blacks, set your whitepoint to avoid blowing out whites, and define a 
detailed gamma correction (which is why it was called Adobe Gamma in the first 
place). Adobe doesn't even recommend Adobe Gamma for LCDs, since they don't 
start with a smooth, gamma shaped response curve, that can be nudged to the 
preferreed gamma with a single point, visual correction. Instead they look rather 
like stock market graphs, and require a point-by-point correction curve to 
balance that out. So seeing a good representation of your nice smooth, 
curve-corrected black and white printer output requires nice, smooth, curve corrected 
monitor output... which is not something you are going to get on an LCD without, 
as Paul puts it, a Spyder or equivalent.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision, Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 3/3/06 11:22:40 PM, paul.roark@... writes:
> 
> 
> > 
> > Most will say that a well-profiled monitor, using Spyder2Pro (which I have)
> > or equivalent is required.  I found that for B&W the Adobe Gamma, done
> > carefully, did a good job if grayscale is all one is judging.
> > 
> For black and white visual monitor calibrators are... more acceptable? less 
> unacceptable? something like that... 

I have a Sypder2 for calibrating my Apple LCD, I then print an image on my Epson 2400 
with an ABW setting of normal (or dark) and change, by eyeball, my "color settings" custom 
dot gain curve to match the LCD 21 step curve image.  I always seem to be off just slightly 
on the range from about 80 to 100% settings.

Now, what will the Spyder2Pro unit do, from what I stated above, for me?  If the 
Spyder2Pro unit gets me closer to "what you see, is what you get" status, is there an 
upgrade for my Spyder2 unit to the Sypder2Pro calibration status?

Thanks,

Martin

In a message dated 3/4/06 2:03:45 PM, mxgo95747@... writes:


> 
> I have a Sypder2 for calibrating my Apple LCD, I then print an image on my 
> Epson 2400
> with an ABW setting of normal (or dark) and change, by eyeball, my "color 
> settings" custom
> dot gain curve to match the LCD 21 step curve image.  I always seem to be 
> off just slightly
> on the range from about 80 to 100% settings.
> 
> Now, what will the Spyder2Pro unit do, from what I stated above, for me?  If 
> the
> Spyder2Pro unit gets me closer to "what you see, is what you get" status, is 
> there an
> upgrade for my Spyder2 unit to the Sypder2Pro calibration status?
> 
Certainly Spyder2PRO would allow you to choose a custom gamma, or even tweak 
your response curve to a "non-gamma" shape, which seems to be what you are 
descibing above. Personally, I prefer to make my corrections at the other 
(printer profile) end, so using a color managed B&W system, or using Roy Harrington's 
black and white preview profile tool with your current printing method, would 
be the choices I would prefer; but now we've gone from upgrading your Spyder 
software to upgrading to the PrintFIX PRO Suite with Spyder2PRO, to build 
those curves... so I'm getting you in deeper and deeper.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision, Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I have a Sypder2 for calibrating my Apple LCD, 
> I then print an image on my Epson 2400 with an ABW ...

The Epson "Advanced B&W" is not a color managed system.  

> ... and change, by eyeball, my "color settings" custom
> dot gain curve to match the LCD 21 step curve image.

This is the step we're trying to get away from by using the color managed
("CM") workflows.  A perfect custom dot gain curve can be very good, but
most of us would rather not have to do this. 

>  I always seem to be off just slightly
> on the range from about 80 to 100% settings.

I've never seen a perfect system, but the CM approaches are better than my
custom curves.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

"I've never seen a perfect system, but the CM approaches are better 
than my
custom curves."
Just to add a note to Paul's point, I had my 4800 color profile made 
for me by Ethan Hanson at Dry Creek. In addition to the beautiful color 
profile he created (including a nice gamut chart of your paper/printer)
for Ilford Sm Pearl, he gave me a group of B&W profiles to try drawn 
from the same data set. These profiles covered Neutral, Platinum, 
Selenium, Cool tone, Sepia and Brown tone. All I can say is WOW! Dead 
on WYSIWYG and the various tones are STUNNING! The Platinum tone is 
especially delicate and beautiful. I know some will always want to 
fiddle with in between values in ABW, but for me this is printing 
Nirvana. 
Lou Meluso
>

I'm pretty confused by the range of Colorvision products and I'm not
even sure how to ask the question. 
 I'm a serious, but not professional photographer, who both scans slides
and negatives and shoots digitally. I have a 19' Dell flatbed monitor,
and an Epson 2400 printer. By following the Epson manual my prints are
close, but only close, and the monitor and especially the print with
preview are not. How close will the Spyder2 Suite get me to seriously
managing my color through to the final print? I guess the question is
what can I expect from each of the products?
Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
CDTobie@...
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 2:16 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what type of calibration system
 

In a message dated 3/4/06 2:03:45 PM, mxgo95747@... writes:


> 
> I have a Sypder2 for calibrating my Apple LCD, I then print an image
on my 
> Epson 2400
> with an ABW setting of normal (or dark) and change, by eyeball, my
"color 
> settings" custom
> dot gain curve to match the LCD 21 step curve image.  I always seem to
be 
> off just slightly
> on the range from about 80 to 100% settings.
> 
> Now, what will the Spyder2Pro unit do, from what I stated above, for
me?  If 
> the
> Spyder2Pro unit gets me closer to "what you see, is what you get"
status, is 
> there an
> upgrade for my Spyder2 unit to the Sypder2Pro calibration status?
> 
Certainly Spyder2PRO would allow you to choose a custom gamma, or even
tweak 
your response curve to a "non-gamma" shape, which seems to be what you
are 
descibing above. Personally, I prefer to make my corrections at the
other 
(printer profile) end, so using a color managed B&W system, or using Roy
Harrington's 
black and white preview profile tool with your current printing method,
would 
be the choices I would prefer; but now we've gone from upgrading your
Spyder 
software to upgrading to the PrintFIX PRO Suite with Spyder2PRO, to
build 
those curves... so I'm getting you in deeper and deeper.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision, Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 3/6/06 3:18:32 PM, hrodkin@... writes:


> I'm pretty confused by the range of Colorvision products and I'm not
> even sure how to ask the question.
> I'm a serious, but not professional photographer, who both scans slides
> and negatives and shoots digitally. I have a 19' Dell flatbed monitor,
> and an Epson 2400 printer. By following the Epson manual my prints are
> close, but only close, and the monitor and especially the print with
> preview are not. How close will the Spyder2 Suite get me to seriously
> managing my color through to the final print? I guess the question is
> what can I expect from each of the products?
> 

I'd go through them all, but its probably not necessary if we approach it 
this way: If you want to control your prints, you want a spectro-based printer 
profiler. For ColorVision that means PrintFIX PRO, and the bundle that adds 
monitor calibration to that adds Spyder2PRO, the high end monitor calibrator, for 
only around a hunderd bucks more, so thats the thing to get: PrintFIX PRO 
Suite. If you are determined to work with your canned printer profiles instead of 
custom profiling your printer, then you can decide if you want the extra 
features of Spyder2PRO (projector calibration, multiple monitor matching, ambient 
light correction) or if   you just want to calibrate you monitor to common 
settings, in which case Spyder2 would be sufficient.

Oh, and since this is the B&W list, I'll mention that the PrintFIX PRO Suite 
would be of use in tuning B&W print systems as well... <G>

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Where do the Printfix Suite and the Spyder2 Suite fit into this mix. The
Printfix Suite also seems to have hardware for both printer and monitor
and the Spyder2 Suite comes with a software only printer management
system. Your response has helped me understand the two ends, but I'm
still a bit confused about the value of the solutions in the middle. I
want to get the job done, but money, of course is always a factor.
Thanks very much for you time and help.
Howard

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
CDTobie@...
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 3:41 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what type of calibration system
 

In a message dated 3/6/06 3:18:32 PM, hrodkin@... writes:


> I'm pretty confused by the range of Colorvision products and I'm not
> even sure how to ask the question.
> I'm a serious, but not professional photographer, who both scans
slides
> and negatives and shoots digitally. I have a 19' Dell flatbed monitor,
> and an Epson 2400 printer. By following the Epson manual my prints are
> close, but only close, and the monitor and especially the print with
> preview are not. How close will the Spyder2 Suite get me to seriously
> managing my color through to the final print? I guess the question is
> what can I expect from each of the products?
> 

I'd go through them all, but its probably not necessary if we approach
it 
this way: If you want to control your prints, you want a spectro-based
printer 
profiler. For ColorVision that means PrintFIX PRO, and the bundle that
adds 
monitor calibration to that adds Spyder2PRO, the high end monitor
calibrator, for 
only around a hunderd bucks more, so thats the thing to get: PrintFIX
PRO 
Suite. If you are determined to work with your canned printer profiles
instead of 
custom profiling your printer, then you can decide if you want the extra

features of Spyder2PRO (projector calibration, multiple monitor
matching, ambient 
light correction) or if   you just want to calibrate you monitor to
common 
settings, in which case Spyder2 would be sufficient.

Oh, and since this is the B&W list, I'll mention that the PrintFIX PRO
Suite 
would be of use in tuning B&W print systems as well... <G>

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 3/6/06 5:00:35 PM, hrodkin@... writes:


> Where do the Printfix Suite and the Spyder2 Suite fit into this mix. The
> Printfix Suite also seems to have hardware for both printer and monitor
> and the Spyder2 Suite comes with a software only printer management
> system. Your response has helped me understand the two ends, but I'm
> still a bit confused about the value of the solutions in the middle
> 

I would not recommend PrintFIX (as opposed to PrintFIX PRO) at this time, as 
it supports only specific printer models, and that list is getting older. Its 
also not as accurate as PrintFIX PRO. The software in the Spyder2 Suite is a 
software only version of PrintFIX PRO called PrintFIX PLUS, where there are 
premeasured starting points for a range of printers that you can work from, to 
tweak a profile for your particular printer, inks, and paper. There will be more 
of these starting points on the ColorVison website later on. This may prove 
to be a very good alternative for those who don't want to spring for the cost 
of the spectro in PrintFIX PRO... its a new product, and there hasn't been much 
chance for user feedback yet, so we'll have to wait to see what people think. 
I suspect this solution will be preferable to previous generations of 
software-only printer profilers, especially once the website kicks in with broader 
starting points. I was certainly impressed with what I could get it to do.

More relevant to this list, PrintFIX PLUS may prove of interest for B&W work 
as well, in the long run; since anyone with a copy of PrintFIX PRO will be 
able to load measurement sets to the CV website, where PLUS users can access them 
as starting points for their own profile building. This could be extended to 
Curves building, B&W profile building, lots of interesting stuff.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you so much for the additional info. I now have a much clearer
understanding of all the options. It sounds like the Spyder2 Suite may
be a good solution for me right now. I'll definitely provide some
feedback once I get it up and going.
Thanks again,
Howard 

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
CDTobie@...
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 6:19 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] what type of calibration system
 

In a message dated 3/6/06 5:00:35 PM, hrodkin@... writes:


> Where do the Printfix Suite and the Spyder2 Suite fit into this mix.
The
> Printfix Suite also seems to have hardware for both printer and
monitor
> and the Spyder2 Suite comes with a software only printer management
> system. Your response has helped me understand the two ends, but I'm
> still a bit confused about the value of the solutions in the middle
> 

I would not recommend PrintFIX (as opposed to PrintFIX PRO) at this
time, as 
it supports only specific printer models, and that list is getting
older. Its 
also not as accurate as PrintFIX PRO. The software in the Spyder2 Suite
is a 
software only version of PrintFIX PRO called PrintFIX PLUS, where there
are 
premeasured starting points for a range of printers that you can work
from, to 
tweak a profile for your particular printer, inks, and paper. There will
be more 
of these starting points on the ColorVison website later on. This may
prove 
to be a very good alternative for those who don't want to spring for the
cost 
of the spectro in PrintFIX PRO... its a new product, and there hasn't
been much 
chance for user feedback yet, so we'll have to wait to see what people
think. 
I suspect this solution will be preferable to previous generations of 
software-only printer profilers, especially once the website kicks in
with broader 
starting points. I was certainly impressed with what I could get it to
do.

More relevant to this list, PrintFIX PLUS may prove of interest for B&W
work 
as well, in the long run; since anyone with a copy of PrintFIX PRO will
be 
able to load measurement sets to the CV website, where PLUS users can
access them 
as starting points for their own profile building. This could be
extended to 
Curves building, B&W profile building, lots of interesting stuff.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
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- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
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- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On the topic....

I have been thinking about buying equipment/software to calibrate my  
LCD monitor, digital projector, and Epson 2200/7600 prints. I teach  
Photoshop in seminar form here in Anchorage, Alaska and would like to  
offer the service of calibrating photographers monitors and printing  
system (I am on a Mac but want to cover Mac and PC systems). Are  
there restrictions in the license and/or hardware that would stop me  
from doing this?

I have looked at the PrintfixPro Suite and found it on sale for $549  
at Calibration-Direct http://www.calibration-direct.com/ 
prodprintfixsuitepro.html

Two questions:
1) Is this a good calibration system to get into or is there a better  
choice?
2) Is there a better price I should look into for this system out there?

Hal Gage
(listserve lurker)

Wow, what a great reply. Thanks David. Adding in a $89 Spyder2express  
to the deal sound very doable.

Although you said that this as the best choice under $1000, what  
other choices would you recommend above the $1000 mark? And would I  
really be gaining that much?

Thanks again,
Hal Gage

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Hal Gage 
<halgage@...> wrote:
> 
> Although you said that this as the best choice under $1000, what  
> other choices would you recommend above the $1000 mark?

Xrite Pulse, Xrite Profiler (Gold or Platinum) with some kind of 
measurement device, Gretag MacBeth i1 Photo, Gretag MacBeth Profile 
Maker Pro and some kind of measuring device, Heidelberg Prinect 
Profile Toolbox and some kind of device. There are a couple of others 
that escape me at the moment. Take a trip to http://www.chromix.com

Has anyone discussed this link on this forum before?

http://www.marrutt.com/digital-ink-myths-2.php

Frank Vincent

> 
> Has anyone discussed this link on this forum before?
> 
> http://www.marrutt.com/digital-ink-myths-2.php
> 

My tests and all I know indicate pigments are much better than dyes on the
types of media generally preferred on this forum.  The Iris images are not
renowned for their lightfastness -- rather the reverse from what I heard
from some serious galleries the last time I asked.  

Dyes do best on special media with swellable coatings.  Even on these they
are not nearly as good as the carbon pigments used by most here on the rag
and glossy papers we use, according to my tests comparing them side by side.

So, I would take the implications of what the web page above says with a
grain of salt.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

http://www.marrutt.com/digital-ink-myths-2.php


Is there any doubt that the person writing the article above  would be saying what is said?

Tony Martin is President of Lyson USA.

A premier purveyor of dye based inks.

From Lyson's  US website as follows,

Independent testing carried out by Wilhelm Imaging Research, Inc. of Grinnell, Iowa has shown that a Lysonic ink set has an estimated life of 65-75 years on a pure cotton paper in average indoor display without noticeable fading*. 


Notice what is said, specifically, "a pure cotton paper", I am not real sure just how many pure cotton papers I use. I have the feeling I would have to go a ways to find a pure cotton paper. I am under the impression that any number archival papers use cotton fiber as a base, but, are prepared in such manor as to provide buffers and other substances to enhance longevity and or surface texture and just how the paper absorbs the substances placed on the surface as well as how the substances are conveyed into the base of the paper or not.

Color gamut is a moot point in this forum, is it not?  i.e. "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint".  Will an apparent greater color gamut in a dye based ink set as opposed to a pigmented ink set produce a greater Dmax black or better highlights? Can't say for sure one way or another, but I am willing to guess that it will not. While I have produced some pleasing B&W prints using MIS pigmented color ink sets I am pretty sure that these prints will not last as long as a pigmented multi black ink set on a paper of known archival quality. On top of that, producing B&W using color inks, is not a point and shoot deal and they do or can have some characteristics that are not pleasing and are difficult to control. 

Is pigmented digital B&W printing, using multi-level black ink sets the best that can be had in the digital realm, a myth? My opinion is that it is not. I am pretty sure that the right B&W ink set on a compatable paper can do a heck of a lot better than, 65 to 75 years. Check Wilhelm for specifics on pigmented B&W prints, and see what they have to say. 

Larry Heath

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Larry Heath wrote:
> http://www.marrutt.com/digital-ink-myths-2.php
> 
> 
> Is there any doubt that the person writing the article above  would be saying what is said?
> 
> Tony Martin is President of Lyson USA.
> 
> A premier purveyor of dye based inks.
> 
>>From Lyson's  US website as follows,
> 
> Independent testing carried out by Wilhelm Imaging Research, Inc. of Grinnell, Iowa has shown that a Lysonic ink set has an estimated life of 65-75 years on a pure cotton paper in average indoor display without noticeable fading*. 
> 
> 
> Notice what is said, specifically, "a pure cotton paper", I am not real sure just how many pure cotton papers I use. I have the feeling I would have to go a ways to find a pure cotton paper. I am under the impression that any number archival papers use cotton fiber as a base, but, are prepared in such manor as to provide buffers and other substances to enhance longevity and or surface texture and just how the paper absorbs the substances placed on the surface as well as how the substances are conveyed into the base of the paper or not.
> 
> Color gamut is a moot point in this forum, is it not?  i.e. "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint".  Will an apparent greater color gamut in a dye based ink set as opposed to a pigmented ink set produce a greater Dmax black or better highlights? Can't say for sure one way or another, but I am willing to guess that it will not. While I have produced some pleasing B&W prints using MIS pigmented color ink sets I am pretty sure that these prints will not last as long as a pigmented multi black ink set on a paper of known archival quality. On top of that, producing B&W using color inks, is not a point and shoot deal and they do or can have some characteristics that are not pleasing and are difficult to control. 
> 
> Is pigmented digital B&W printing, using multi-level black ink sets the best that can be had in the digital realm, a myth? My opinion is that it is not. I am pretty sure that the right B&W ink set on a compatable paper can do a heck of a lot better than, 65 to 75 years. Check Wilhelm for specifics on pigmented B&W prints, and see what they have to say. 
> 
> Larry Heath

Larry,

Wilhelm tested dye inks on pure cotton in the past. That is 
paper without any inkjet coating like you would use in 
intaglio printing etc. Arches for Iris, BFK Rives. This 
testing was based on tests done for the Iris printer with dye 
inks from several sources. Lyson made an ink like that 
(Lysonic) and their Lysonic-E and Fotonic were further 
developments from that ink but adapted for the Epson 9000 etc. 
The CMYK sets tested like quoted on the pure cotton papers but 
failed miserably when used on inkjet coated papers that were 
then introduced, Hahnemuhle German Etching for example. CcMmYK 
sets were worse on all papers. The dye inks on pure cotton 
show far less detail and color gamut + they are not waterproof 
(dye on inkjet coated paper is better but doesn't get near 
pigment ink on coated paper).

The Lyson websites have misleading quotes from their own 
tests. Lysonic E which has a lousy color gamut are tested on 
CcMmYK printers, Fotonic which has a good color gamut but cm 
inks that fade is tested on CMYK printers. The dye ink 
competition was tested on CcMmYK printers (Van Son). The test 
itself should be Wilhelm like according to Lyson, the 
interpretation in years is Lyson like. I have used Epson, 
Lysonic-E, Fotonic and Van Son dyes in an Epson 9000 and they 
all faded.

So far no dye ink has beaten the pigment inks in longevity. 
The HP dyes in combination with the right HP papers are 
probably the best on the market right now and are Wilhelm 
tested. The choice of papers is limited though.


Ernst
                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Colour gamut is far from mute and the capability of the black ink is very
important for the breadth of tonal range we have to play with.

> From: Larry Heath <lgheath@...>

> Color gamut is a moot point in this forum, is it not?  i.e.
> "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint".  Will an apparent greater color gamut in a dye
> based ink set as opposed to a pigmented ink set produce a greater Dmax black
> or better highlights?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>
> Larry Heath wrote:
> > http://www.marrutt.com/digital-ink-myths-2.php
> > 
> > 
> > Is there any doubt that the person writing the article above 
would be saying what is said?
> > 
> > Tony Martin is President of Lyson USA.
> > 
> > A premier purveyor of dye based inks.
<snip>

Larry, I totally agree, that's the most important point about this
article, the author is bound to be an evangelist for dye based inks
and whatever papers they have been tested with. Although the article
is very well written, it should be taken with a large pinch of salt
(not a grain, as Paul R suggested :-)).

Having said that, the author omitted to mention metamerism problems
with pigments, which makes me wonder whether Lyson dyes also suffer
from this problem.

> Larry,
> 
> Wilhelm tested dye inks on pure cotton in the past. That is 
> paper without any inkjet coating like you would use in 
> intaglio printing etc. Arches for Iris, BFK Rives. This 
> testing was based on tests done for the Iris printer with dye 
> inks from several sources. Lyson made an ink like that 
> (Lysonic) and their Lysonic-E and Fotonic were further 
> developments from that ink but adapted for the Epson 9000 etc. 
> The CMYK sets tested like quoted on the pure cotton papers but 
> failed miserably when used on inkjet coated papers that were 
> then introduced, Hahnemuhle German Etching for example. CcMmYK 
> sets were worse on all papers. The dye inks on pure cotton 
> show far less detail and color gamut + they are not waterproof 
> (dye on inkjet coated paper is better but doesn't get near 
> pigment ink on coated paper).
> 
> The Lyson websites have misleading quotes from their own 
> tests. Lysonic E which has a lousy color gamut are tested on 
> CcMmYK printers, Fotonic which has a good color gamut but cm 
> inks that fade is tested on CMYK printers. 

Ernst,

Thanks for all this really detailed and valuable information. This
should be publicised more widely.

I've not used Fotonic inks, but comparing 3-D gamut plots of profiles
from the Lyson web site with profiles made for my Epson 2100 with UC
inks, the Fotonic gamut is significantly smaller. So I'm assuming that
Lyson's claims about gamut are dubious. It's interesting that the 2-D
gamut plots shown on Lyson's web site compare Lyson Fotonic inks with
the standard Epson inks in an Epson 870, which is now quite an old
printer by modern standards. Definitely a case of selective reporting!

Have you made profiles for Fotonic inks & seen better gamuts than
those in the standard Lyson profiles? How do they compare with modern
ink gamuts?

I have an interest in all this as I've been thinking about switching
to Lyson Fotonics in my 2100 after finally getting fed up with the
metamerism problems with the UC inks.

> The dye ink 
> competition was tested on CcMmYK printers (Van Son). The test 
> itself should be Wilhelm like according to Lyson, the 
> interpretation in years is Lyson like. I have used Epson, 
> Lysonic-E, Fotonic and Van Son dyes in an Epson 9000 and they 
> all faded.
> 
> So far no dye ink has beaten the pigment inks in longevity. 
> The HP dyes in combination with the right HP papers are 
> probably the best on the market right now and are Wilhelm 
> tested. The choice of papers is limited though.

Can you suggest a current HP A3-sized printer for both colour & B&W
printing? It may be cheaper for me to switch printers than put new
inks in my 2100. I hadn't previously considered HP because third party
ink (and driver/RIP) support seems better for Epson generally.

Thanks in anticipation,

Alan

In a message dated 3/7/06 8:45:12 PM, hollidaypr@... writes:


> 
> Has anyone discussed this link on this forum before?
> 

Marrutt is the British reseller for Lyson, who were long proponents of 
archival and semi-archival dye inks, even after the Epson move to pigments had 
begun. Lyson eventually found it necessary to move into the pigment market to 
remain competitive, but are dye-based at heart. This document needs to be viewed in 
that context.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

alanrew42 wrote:

> Having said that, the author omitted to mention metamerism problems
> with pigments, which makes me wonder whether Lyson dyes also suffer
> from this problem.

Lyson dyes have not been free of metamerism. For example the 
Small Gamut set as the name implies not a very colorful inkset 
for B&W printing had a lot metamerism as reported by users here.
For low metamerism you probably are better off with the 
extended inksets with more grey inks. Composite grey (build 
with CMY etc) usually is more metamerism prone.

> Thanks for all this really detailed and valuable information. This
> should be publicised more widely.

I have done my best on many lists over the past 3 years to 
reveal that the test pages of Lyson are misleading. They must 
have seen my comments as true Lyson lovers were commenting my 
messages and reporting back to base. Nothing changed though 
but one particular Lyson lover switched to Lyson pigment ink. 
The pages are still there. It doesn't work that way.

> I've not used Fotonic inks, but comparing 3-D gamut plots of profiles
> from the Lyson web site with profiles made for my Epson 2100 with UC
> inks, the Fotonic gamut is significantly smaller. So I'm assuming that
> Lyson's claims about gamut are dubious. It's interesting that the 2-D
> gamut plots shown on Lyson's web site compare Lyson Fotonic inks with
> the standard Epson inks in an Epson 870, which is now quite an old
> printer by modern standards. Definitely a case of selective reporting!

The tests, the printers, the papers, the technology are all 
old news. But the pages still do what Lyson likes.

> Have you made profiles for Fotonic inks & seen better gamuts than
> those in the standard Lyson profiles? How do they compare with modern
> ink gamuts?

At that time we used Lyson or Hahnemuhle profiles.

Now that UC K3 inks are at a gamut level that was only 
possible with dye inks in the past you shouldn't look back. 
Even HP is switching to pigment inks while their dye ink + 
compatible papers had a fade resistance that surpassed any 
other recent dye combination. But less waterproof than pigment 
inks and bound to few paper choices.

If you insist that dye will solve your problems than you may 
find equivalent (to Lyson) quality dye inks in Epson's own dye 
ink and compatible papers and in Lincoln inks that were based 
on Ilford Archiva dye inks. Both have been tested by Wilhelm. 
Both perform best (fade resistance) on gelatine coated papers 
and not good on matte papers. Less waterproof than pigment inks.

> 
> I have an interest in all this as I've been thinking about switching
> to Lyson Fotonics in my 2100 after finally getting fed up with the
> metamerism problems with the UC inks.

I don't think you will be satisfied by that change. The 
reduction of metamerism in inkjet printing is a slow process. 
Since it became part of the quality criteria (in CMYK offset 
printing it isn't really an issue on a practical level). 
Manufacturers are aware of it and Epson shows progress since 
its earliest pigment models. I think you may find more 
improvement in a 2400 (or possibly the Canon/HP pigment 
competition) than in switching to dye inks.

>> The dye ink 
>> competition was tested on CcMmYK printers (Van Son). The test 
>> itself should be Wilhelm like according to Lyson, the 
>> interpretation in years is Lyson like. I have used Epson, 
>> Lysonic-E, Fotonic and Van Son dyes in an Epson 9000 and they 
>> all faded.
>>
>> So far no dye ink has beaten the pigment inks in longevity. 
>> The HP dyes in combination with the right HP papers are 
>> probably the best on the market right now and are Wilhelm 
>> tested. The choice of papers is limited though.
> 
> Can you suggest a current HP A3-sized printer for both colour & B&W
> printing? It may be cheaper for me to switch printers than put new
> inks in my 2100. I hadn't previously considered HP because third party
> ink (and driver/RIP) support seems better for Epson generally.

I have no experience with the HP printers. Some have been 
discussed here in relation to B&W printing. There's a dye 
model with an extra set of grey inks. But as said there's a 
new HP pigment model with an extended set of inks.
                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

It may be relevant to this conversation to note that Lyson have been  
or are being bought out by Nazdar. What implications this has for  
their inks in the future I don't know.

http://www.nazdar.com/pr_2006_nazdar_lyson.asp

Drew

( a Fotonic user )





see also amdig@yahoogroups.com

On 8 Mar 2006, at 14:07, CDTobie@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 3/7/06 8:45:12 PM, hollidaypr@... writes:
>
>
> >
> > Has anyone discussed this link on this forum before?
> >
>
> Marrutt is the British reseller for Lyson, who were long proponents of
> archival and semi-archival dye inks, even after the Epson move to  
> pigments had
> begun. Lyson eventually found it necessary to move into the pigment  
> market to
> remain competitive, but are dye-based at heart. This document needs  
> to be viewed in
> that context.
>
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Heath" 
<lgheath@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.marrutt.com/digital-ink-myths-2.php
> 
> 
> Is there any doubt that the person writing the article above  would 
be saying what is said?
> 
> Tony Martin is President of Lyson USA.
> 
> A premier purveyor of dye based inks.
> 
> From Lyson's  US website as follows,
> 
> Independent testing carried out by Wilhelm Imaging Research, Inc. 
of Grinnell, Iowa has shown that a Lysonic ink set has an estimated 
life of 65-75 years on a pure cotton paper in average indoor display 
without noticeable fading*. 
> 
> 
> Notice what is said, specifically, "a pure cotton paper", I am not 
real sure just how many pure cotton papers I use. I have the feeling 
I would have to go a ways to find a pure cotton paper. I am under the 
impression that any number archival papers use cotton fiber as a 
base, but, are prepared in such manor as to provide buffers and other 
substances to enhance longevity and or surface texture and just how 
the paper absorbs the substances placed on the surface as well as how 
the substances are conveyed into the base of the paper or not.
> 
> Color gamut is a moot point in this forum, is it not?  
i.e. "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint".  Will an apparent greater color 
gamut in a dye based ink set as opposed to a pigmented ink set 
produce a greater Dmax black or better highlights? Can't say for sure 
one way or another, but I am willing to guess that it will not. While 
I have produced some pleasing B&W prints using MIS pigmented color 
ink sets I am pretty sure that these prints will not last as long as 
a pigmented multi black ink set on a paper of known archival quality. 
On top of that, producing B&W using color inks, is not a point and 
shoot deal and they do or can have some characteristics that are not 
pleasing and are difficult to control. 
> 
> Is pigmented digital B&W printing, using multi-level black ink sets 
the best that can be had in the digital realm, a myth? My opinion is 
that it is not. I am pretty sure that the right B&W ink set on a 
compatable paper can do a heck of a lot better than, 65 to 75 years. 
Check Wilhelm for specifics on pigmented B&W prints, and see what 
they have to say. 
> 
> Larry Heath
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yeah, I have a hard time believing the article considering the 
motivations of the then/now? CEO of Lyson. It's like trusting Kodak 
with their longivity test results, or Enron with their financial 
reports, or several prominent current US administration officials 
with truth.

Jules

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "alanrew42" 
<Alan-Rew@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
> <E.Dinkla@> wrote:
> >
> > Larry Heath wrote:
> > > http://www.marrutt.com/digital-ink-myths-2.php
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Is there any doubt that the person writing the article above 
> would be saying what is said?
> > > 
> > > Tony Martin is President of Lyson USA.
> > > 
> > > A premier purveyor of dye based inks.
> <snip>
> 
> Larry, I totally agree, that's the most important point about this
> article, the author is bound to be an evangelist for dye based inks
> and whatever papers they have been tested with. Although the article
> is very well written, it should be taken with a large pinch of salt
> (not a grain, as Paul R suggested :-)).
> 
> Having said that, the author omitted to mention metamerism problems
> with pigments, which makes me wonder whether Lyson dyes also suffer
> from this problem.
> 


Not to forget that Lyson has no problem selling a full line of pig 
inks that Tony is now disparaging.

No wonder they caved (no pun intended) and sold out.

Jules

Andrew Rodger wrote:
> It may be relevant to this conversation to note that Lyson have been  
> or are being bought out by Nazdar. What implications this has for  
> their inks in the future I don't know.
> 
> http://www.nazdar.com/pr_2006_nazdar_lyson.asp
> 
> Drew
> 
> ( a Fotonic user )

Wonder who will be happy with that purchase. Nazdar has been 
successful in the US with silkscreen inks but never was able 
to get a foothold in Europe. Competition by Sericol, Marabu, 
Dubuit, Proll, Wiederhold and smaller companies kept the US 
suppliers away. Lyson must have part of the market in wide 
format solvent + textile printers + third party prosumer dye 
and pigment but for all markets the competition is strong too 
with for example Sericol again for the UV cure and Solvent 
inks. Sericol is now owned by FujiFilm. I don't think Nazdar 
is interested in the inkjet inks for prosumers but seeks 
compensation for less silkscreen ink sales in the solvent wide 
format inkjet market. All the old silkscreen ink manufacturers 
try to find other markets.

Ernst

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Yes. I used their monochrome quad and small gamut inks for years, back
in the days before I was happy with the Cone or Mis pigments. The
metamerism is bad. The strange test results they have on their website
are retarded looking. They promised me for 2 years that they would
publish reliable permanence data on the Small Gamut set. I don't think
they ever did. I moved on a long time agao. They alway had some sad
excuse about the metamerism in these dyes. I belive the last thing
Tony Martin wrote me was, oh we don't consider this reddening under
tungsten light to be actually metamerism, we think of it as just the
way things actually look under incandescent light. 

Please. 

And, yes their color pigments suffer from metamerism too (which are in
the small gamut set along with monochrome dyes). Their whole thing was
promoting that their dyes did better on glossy media which is a non
issue these days.

As to their Cave Paints pigments - I can only wonder who actually
makes them. 

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lulalake_1999"
<lulalake_1999@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "alanrew42" 
> <Alan-Rew@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
> > <E.Dinkla@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Larry Heath wrote:
> > > > http://www.marrutt.com/digital-ink-myths-2.php
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Is there any doubt that the person writing the article above 
> > would be saying what is said?
> > > > 
> > > > Tony Martin is President of Lyson USA.
> > > > 
> > > > A premier purveyor of dye based inks.
> > <snip>
> > 
> > Larry, I totally agree, that's the most important point about this
> > article, the author is bound to be an evangelist for dye based inks
> > and whatever papers they have been tested with. Although the article
> > is very well written, it should be taken with a large pinch of salt
> > (not a grain, as Paul R suggested :-)).
> > 
> > Having said that, the author omitted to mention metamerism problems
> > with pigments, which makes me wonder whether Lyson dyes also suffer
> > from this problem.
> > 
> 
> 
> Not to forget that Lyson has no problem selling a full line of pig 
> inks that Tony is now disparaging.
> 
> No wonder they caved (no pun intended) and sold out.
> 
> Jules
>

In an art catalog I saw another set of "tests" that tended to show dyes were
almost as good as pigments when they were sprayed with a UV spray.  However,
when I read the fine print, the trick used became clear.  They had coated
the dye test strip with a UV blocking subtance, and the pigments were
totally un-protected.  Then they used only UV light for the fading.  Of
course, the UV blocker was essentially opaque to the UV light, whereas the
pigs got a full dose of very damaging UV.  Using UV light as the test source
terribly skewed the results.  As Wilhelm has noted, in indoor display, it is
visible light (assuming no serious airborne pollutants) that does the
fading.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

That's right. He told us here that it is the blue spectrum that
actually does most of the damage, not the uv, because the blue
spectrum is much larger in total output.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> In an art catalog I saw another set of "tests" that tended to show
dyes were
> almost as good as pigments when they were sprayed with a UV spray. 
However,
> when I read the fine print, the trick used became clear.  They had
coated
> the dye test strip with a UV blocking subtance, and the pigments were
> totally un-protected.  Then they used only UV light for the fading.  Of
> course, the UV blocker was essentially opaque to the UV light,
whereas the
> pigs got a full dose of very damaging UV.  Using UV light as the
test source
> terribly skewed the results.  As Wilhelm has noted, in indoor
display, it is

> visible light (assuming no serious airborne pollutants) that does the
> fading.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>