Digital BW, The Print

My local Epson dealer tells me that, historically, UC Photo K outsells  Matte 
K by about 10:1. Not surprising that all the new Epsons are going for  better 
color gamut, less gloss differential, a tougher surface, and color toning  in 
their monochrome modes. It's a Lustre/Semi Matte world out there. Most  
Portrait/Wedding studios want this, with an occasional "watercolor" Portrait  using 
Corel Painter.
 
Therefore, I can see this board, 3rd party vendors and all the  carbon/hybrid 
solutions staying very much alive for a long time, as there will  always be 
purists that want more affordable solutions that are less "tainted" by  the 
masses. Just think of how many 9600, 7600, and 4000's will be on Ebay before  
Xmas!!
 
Claude



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And when it works well it will return to the "fine art" world with a
vengeance. The first step is to get pigment inks that can sit well on coated
papers - eradicating the typically termed bronzing and gloss differential
issues.   Parallel development is also occurring with respect to coatings
which come closer to traditional finishes.  In my opinion, we are getting
ever closer to replicating the prior "standard" - air-dried, fibre-based,
(glossy) silver gelatin print.  There's nothing to say that this need be the
"standard" but the allure of a fully-useable 2.3+ dMax range with a
traditional "look" will be enormously strong for as long as matte printing
remains stuck down at dMaxs of 1.6-7.

Now, of course, there are others working on new inks that have already
achieved in tests dMax of well over 2.0, extending to match today's photo
black output and traditional print dMax.  It remains to be seen as to
whether these inks can come successfully to market.  The real test of what
will be the new "standard" will only come when inks on matte papers can
achieve the same useable dynamic range of the current "traditional
standard".  Until then matte paper output is playing a fill-in role while
photo paper output develops rapidly to meet its predecessor.  Personally I
would like to see a bit more balanced advances to both.  I'd much prefer a
cotton paper print over a photo/fibre print IF it had the same dynamic
range.  Unfortunately, though, this will require some very radical
rethinking of ink technology and perhaps the standards by which its
longevity is judged.  But it is still very early days in the digital
printing of photographs and we have a lot to look forward to.

> From: <claudej1@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 08:01:53 EDT
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Thoughts on the new Epsons
> 
>  
> My local Epson dealer tells me that, historically, UC Photo K outsells  Matte
> K by about 10:1. Not surprising that all the new Epsons are going for  better
> color gamut, less gloss differential, a tougher surface, and color toning  in
> their monochrome modes. It's a Lustre/Semi Matte world out there. Most
> Portrait/Wedding studios want this, with an occasional "watercolor" Portrait
> using 
> Corel Painter.
>  
> Therefore, I can see this board, 3rd party vendors and all the  carbon/hybrid
> solutions staying very much alive for a long time, as there will  always be
> purists that want more affordable solutions that are less "tainted" by  the
> masses. Just think of how many 9600, 7600, and 4000's will be on Ebay before
> Xmas!!
>  
> Claude
>

Therefore, I can see this board, 3rd party vendors and all the carbon/hybrid
solutions staying very much alive for a long time, as there will always be
purists that want more affordable solutions that are less "tainted" by the
masses. Just think of how many 9600, 7600, and 4000's will be on Ebay 
before
Xmas!!

Claude

That's a very good point. There are so many of those ultrachrome printers out 
there that are ripe for conversion. It seems to me that the way to overcome 
Epson's threatened dominance in high-end monochrome output would be for 
more of us to buy and use bulk inks. I mean buy em by the quarts and gallons. 
These littel 220 ml carts are where our money goes. I can see a stronger 
movement within this growing underground community to purchase our non 
Epson inks in larger and larger quantities. Of course this means easy to use 
and reliable cfs systems that don't clog print heads and/or well designed and 
easily refillable carts with chip reprogrammers. 

John

I keep seeing this concern with the cost of ink. If we do a cost per  
inch of a final print, isn't the PAPER biggest part of that? Wouldn't  
it make sense to get the paper manufactures to reduce prices on  
media? Or could us as a group (including other e-groups) buy in a  
huge volume, split up the order, and pass the savings on to all of us?

No, I am not volunteering for this, no organizational skills :)

Mark

On May 25, 2005, at 8:52 AM, john dean wrote:

> These littel 220 ml carts are where our money goes. I can see a  
> stronger
> movement within this growing underground community to purchase our non
> Epson inks in larger and larger quantities.

I think we already have this with Jkm Doyle at shadesofpaper.com.

Jim Steele

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@c...> wrote:

> I keep seeing this concern with the cost of ink. If we do a cost per  
> inch of a final print, isn't the PAPER biggest part of that? Wouldn't  
> it make sense to get the paper manufactures to reduce prices on  
> media? Or could us as a group (including other e-groups) buy in a  
> huge volume, split up the order, and pass the savings on to all of us?
> 
> No, I am not volunteering for this, no organizational skills :)
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> On May 25, 2005, at 8:52 AM, john dean wrote:
> 
> > These littel 220 ml carts are where our money goes. I can see a  
> > stronger
> > movement within this growing underground community to purchase our non
> > Epson inks in larger and larger quantities.

That's true. Jimmy, want to sell us some ink at hugh discounts?

Mark

On May 25, 2005, at 9:19 AM, jamesdsteele2001 wrote:

> I think we already have this with Jkm Doyle at shadesofpaper.com.

Don't forget the ink needs to be as good as well  ;-)

As I see it the new printers don't offer too much to the B&W guy prepared to
use a RIP like QTR or IJC/OPM EXCEPT the better ink.

> From: john dean <deanwork2003@...>

> 
> Therefore, I can see this board, 3rd party vendors and all the carbon/hybrid
> solutions staying very much alive for a long time, as there will always be
> purists that want more affordable solutions that are less "tainted" by the
> masses. Just think of how many 9600, 7600, and 4000's will be on Ebay
> before
> Xmas!!
> 
> Claude
> 
> That's a very good point. There are so many of those ultrachrome printers out
> there that are ripe for conversion. It seems to me that the way to overcome
> Epson's threatened dominance in high-end monochrome output would be for
> more of us to buy and use bulk inks. I mean buy em by the quarts and gallons.
> These littel 220 ml carts are where our money goes. I can see a stronger
> movement within this growing underground community to purchase our non
> Epson inks in larger and larger quantities. Of course this means easy to use
> and reliable cfs systems that don't clog print heads and/or well designed and
> easily refillable carts with chip reprogrammers.
> 
> John

Ink..Dont you mean liquid Gold..Maybe Someday..I havent figured that part of
the market out..So Many to choose from..and than all the issues..

If I Do I will let everyone know..Maybe when I get done adding papers..

Jim Doyle


J. Doyle Enterprises LLC
114 Old Orchard Rd
Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
856-424-8660
http://www.shadesofpaper.com
AOL IM: Brokerup99

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mark
Savoia
  Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 8:23 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Thoughts on the new Epsons


  That's true. Jimmy, want to sell us some ink at hugh discounts?

  Mark

  On May 25, 2005, at 9:19 AM, jamesdsteele2001 wrote:

  > I think we already have this with Jkm Doyle at shadesofpaper.com.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

While I am at it..Just a quick question does it make any differance to you
that make these books if the grain of the paper is short or long? and would
it help if it were
labeled on the papers?

Jim Doyle


J. Doyle Enterprises LLC
114 Old Orchard Rd
Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
856-424-8660
http://www.shadesofpaper.com
AOL IM: Brokerup99


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Steve Kale wrote:

> And when it works well it will return to the "fine art" world with a
> vengeance. The first step is to get pigment inks that can sit well on 
> coated papers - eradicating the typically termed bronzing and gloss 
> differential issues.   Parallel development is also occurring with 
> respect to coatings which come closer to traditional finishes.  In my 
> opinion, we are getting ever closer to replicating the prior 
> "standard" - air-dried, fibre-based, (glossy) silver gelatin print.  
> There's nothing to say that this need be the "standard" but the allure 
> of a fully-useable 2.3+ dMax range with a traditional "look" will be 
> enormously strong for as long as matte printing remains stuck down at 
> dMaxs of 1.6-7.


Absolutely. What is driving the market toward this "standard" is the 
laws of physics. It's easier to get higher Dmax on a glossier surface 
than on a matte surface. What we want, is the higher Dmax, not 
necessarily the glossier surface.

> Now, of course, there are others working on new inks that have already 
> achieved in tests dMax of well over 2.0, extending to match today's 
> photo black output and traditional print dMax.  It remains to be seen 
> as to whether these inks can come successfully to market.

Yes. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

> The real test of what will be the new "standard" will only come when 
> inks on matte papers can achieve the same useable dynamic range of the 
> current "traditional standard".  Until then matte paper output is 
> playing a fill-in role while photo paper output develops rapidly to 
> meet its predecessor.  Personally I would like to see a bit more 
> balanced advances to both.  I'd much prefer a cotton paper print over 
> a photo/fibre print IF it had the same dynamic range.  Unfortunately, 
> though, this will require some very radical rethinking of ink 
> technology and perhaps the standards by which its longevity is 
> judged.  But it is still very early days in the digital printing of 
> photographs and we have a lot to look forward to.

Yes. Given a choice of 2.3+ Dmax on gloss, semi-gloss, or matte paper, I 
would almost certainly pick the matte paper. I don't think I'm alone in 
that. The market is there. It's just a matter of time.
--
Bruce Watson

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... wrote:
...
> Yes. Given a choice of 2.3+ Dmax on gloss, semi-gloss, or matte
paper, I 
> would almost certainly pick the matte paper. I don't think I'm alone in 
> that. The market is there. It's just a matter of time.

Bruce, Todd Gangler here in Seattle is one of the only (perhaps now
the only) people making tri-color carbro prints left n the world.
Near Ciba gamut and density on beautiful Magnani fine art papers, no
glitzy gloss or fake surface.
Incredibly beautiful, and inherently photographic. I've never seen
anything like them, perhaps old dye transfer.
I've heard people say inkjet prints on art papers are not photographs,
as though only a photo paper surface is a photograph. I honestly don't
know what they mean.
Anyway, in terms of the nature of the media, it's whole new world in
my opinion. But as above, the marketplace may dictate otherwise. Also,
I think other inks need to be developed. Lyson dye or even Epson dye
prints on the same fine art papers blow the UCs out of the water, but
of course don't have Wilhelm's blessings. Mine either I guess.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Doyle" 
<jdoyle1713@c...> wrote:
> While I am at it..Just a quick question does it make any differance 
to you
> that make these books if the grain of the paper is short or long? 
and would
> it help if it were
> labeled on the papers?
> 

Hi Jim,  I think which way the grain runs does make a difference.  I 
am tearing the edges of my prints and sometimes it tears well, 
sometimes it doesn't, depending on which way the grain runs.  On
12x12 
papers, it wouldn't matter which way it ran, as long as it was
labeled.

Jenny

Well then, why not HP?  Peter

On May 25, 2005, at 9:39 AM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... 
> wrote:
> ...
>> Yes. Given a choice of 2.3+ Dmax on gloss, semi-gloss, or matte
> paper, I
>> would almost certainly pick the matte paper. I don't think I'm alone 
>> in
>> that. The market is there. It's just a matter of time.
>
> Bruce, Todd Gangler here in Seattle is one of the only (perhaps now
> the only) people making tri-color carbro prints left n the world.
> Near Ciba gamut and density on beautiful Magnani fine art papers, no
> glitzy gloss or fake surface.
> Incredibly beautiful, and inherently photographic. I've never seen
> anything like them, perhaps old dye transfer.
> I've heard people say inkjet prints on art papers are not photographs,
> as though only a photo paper surface is a photograph. I honestly don't
> know what they mean.
> Anyway, in terms of the nature of the media, it's whole new world in
> my opinion. But as above, the marketplace may dictate otherwise. Also,
> I think other inks need to be developed. Lyson dye or even Epson dye
> prints on the same fine art papers blow the UCs out of the water, but
> of course don't have Wilhelm's blessings. Mine either I guess.
> Tyler
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
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> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
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> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
>

Tyler Boley wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... wrote:
>...
>  
>
>>Yes. Given a choice of 2.3+ Dmax on gloss, semi-gloss, or matte
>>    
>>
>paper, I 
>  
>
>>would almost certainly pick the matte paper. I don't think I'm alone in 
>>that. The market is there. It's just a matter of time.
>>    
>>
>
>Bruce, Todd Gangler here in Seattle is one of the only (perhaps now
>the only) people making tri-color carbro prints left n the world.
>Near Ciba gamut and density on beautiful Magnani fine art papers, no
>glitzy gloss or fake surface.
>Incredibly beautiful, and inherently photographic. I've never seen
>anything like them, perhaps old dye transfer.
>I've heard people say inkjet prints on art papers are not photographs,
>as though only a photo paper surface is a photograph. I honestly don't
>know what they mean.
>Anyway, in terms of the nature of the media, it's whole new world in
>my opinion. But as above, the marketplace may dictate otherwise. Also,
>I think other inks need to be developed. Lyson dye or even Epson dye
>prints on the same fine art papers blow the UCs out of the water, but
>of course don't have Wilhelm's blessings. Mine either I guess.
>Tyler
>  
>
When I compare the inkjet prints I made so far then the matte blacks of 
dye (Lysonic, Epson) inks are the best, followed by Generations which is 
just a bit more black than MIS Eboni.  If I compare them with intaglio 
prints (heliogravure, rotogravure, etc) and silkscreen matte blacks (on 
Arches, Magnani, Fabriano etc) then all the mentioned inkjet matte 
blacks appear as having more density. Given that, I don't expect much 
more density in inkjet inks + matte paper coatings. What's the measured 
density of carbro prints ? On the net I see evading descriptions on how 
black they actually are. The impression of high  black density in a 
print can be subjective, if that impression is there it is not a bad 
result either.

Taste for gloss and semigloss in photo shops is not just inherited from 
analogue times. Like in analogue times gloss and semigloss serve the 
goal better, the surface is better protected, the reflectance angle is 
easily adjusted when prints go from hand to hand, the dynamic range is 
wider. Photo shops will get less complaints from their normal customers 
with gloss and semigloss prints.

Artist fall for the velvet black of inkjet ink on matte paper. They 
think how it shows on the wall. The blacks they are used to don't have 
that photo gloss density either. Another eye for black.

Many UC printers are not used in photo or art printing shops but are 
used as proof printers in offset print shops, by graphic arts designers, 
by textile designers,  in CAD environments, whatever. They select the 
more universal ink which is the PK and they can't be bothered by a loss 
of Dmax on matte surfaces. That matte density loss is there in offset 
printing too so why try to get the proof better and wet the appetite of 
the customer for something he will not get ? This isn't the taste for 
gloss quality but a practical decision.

There are not enough artists and photographers around that think of 
their prints hanging in a gallery to get a 50-50% selling of PK and MK. 
Maybe we better keep that quantity low too :-)

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> Tyler Boley wrote:
...
> >Bruce, Todd Gangler here in Seattle is one of the only (perhaps now
> >the only) people making tri-color carbro prints left n the world.
> >Near Ciba gamut and density on beautiful Magnani fine art papers, no
> >glitzy gloss or fake surface.
> >Incredibly beautiful, and inherently photographic. I've never seen
> >anything like them, perhaps old dye transfer.
...
>...If I compare them with intaglio 
> prints (heliogravure, rotogravure, etc) and silkscreen matte blacks (on 
> Arches, Magnani, Fabriano etc) then all the mentioned inkjet matte 
> blacks appear as having more density. Given that, I don't expect much 
> more density in inkjet inks + matte paper coatings. What's the measured 
> density of carbro prints ?

I should have been less imprecise in my rave. I honestly don't know
what the gamut or dmax of the carbros may be. I can only say how they
looked on the wall next to traditional prints. The certainly appeared
more dramatic than even type Cs.
But I could ask Todd, he would probably know.
Also, I believe the pigments have a surface quality of their own, are
translucent (they go down in registered layers) and don't go into the
paper much.

> On the net I see evading descriptions on how 
> black they actually are. The impression of high  black density in a 
> print can be subjective, if that impression is there it is not a bad 
> result either.

At this point I'm only talking subjective, I'd better be clear about that.
One point I was trying to make is that the Matte vrs Glossy may not
always equate to density range, and the experience of an impressive
gamut and dramatic density range on a beautiful paper surface is
beautiful. Hopefully something we can get to one day with inkjet.
Tyler

> At this point I'm only talking subjective, I'd better be clear about that.
> One point I was trying to make is that the Matte vrs Glossy may not
> always equate to density range, and the experience of an impressive
> gamut and dramatic density range on a beautiful paper surface is
> beautiful. Hopefully something we can get to one day with inkjet.
> Tyler


I know exactly what you are talking about here. I studied with Todd Walker 
who was an innovator in just about ever alternative process there was. He 
used almost all  of them at one time or another including carbro, photo 
etching, photo litho, etc. But his specialty in the 60's and 70's was photo 
silkscreen. He would act as a consultant to Rauchenburg and others of the 
time who were also interested in possibilities of silkscreen.

Todd would make many enlarged kodalith negs derived from one original 
continuous tone neg ( technically a form of posterization ). They often involved 
more than 20 registered printings on one sheet, with each negative carrying 
different color and tonal information. This allowed him to build up the density 
in layers, dryed between each printing. He called it "arbitrary" color because it 
was assigned color. An edition could take a month or more. But the results 
were worth it. I've never seen anyone work with color in such a controllable 
way at that time. All the type c prints of that era are gone and his prints are as 
good a new. His pigments were oil pigments, and later often acrylics. The 
color and black density was amazing on cotton rag papers like ones used for 
etching or litho work. 

Before Todd died he was working on an early pc with his own software. If he 
were alive today I have the strange feeling he would be finding a way to run 
the prints back throught the Epson printers again and again to build up color 
and create unique pieces that way. He was woking with offset printers that 
way and achieved amazing density and transparency out of fairly low end 
offset printers. He would be amazed at what we have to work with these days. 
We are so lucky and spoiled.

John

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:

>  ...I studied with Todd Walker 
> who was an innovator in just about ever alternative process there
was....

I have an old Friends of Photography publication of his work somewhere.
Jees, FOP, a long time ago, great days for photography.

Tyler

Tyler  -
 
It was, indeed, an exciting time.  I was a charter member of the 'Friends".  I lived in LA at the time, but spent a good deal of time in Monterey/Carmel/Big Sur.  Going to the Friends gallery was always such a treat and inspiration.  Inovation continues, but, somehow, there isn't the same sense of discovery.  It certainly isn't because of a lack of talent.  Maybe is just me.  Maybe I just need to look a little further afield.
 
Tom Baker

Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
wrote:

> ...I studied with Todd Walker 
> who was an innovator in just about ever alternative process there
was....

I have an old Friends of Photography publication of his work somewhere.
Jees, FOP, a long time ago, great days for photography.

Tyler





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
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On the original issue of the new Epsons, we should be seeing some prints by now!  Has 
anyone had a chance to print the same image with K3 inks and with another method that a 
frequenter of this forum would use?  (MIS, IP, QTR, whatever?)

I'd like to know whether my old printer & RIP measure up pretty closely to the new 
printers, or whether I'm stuck with a new $2000 purchase & 85 lbs. of old 4000.   

On PSNews,  Jeff Schewe carefully compared prints from the 2400 to the 2200 with the 
Epson driver, but that wasn't a very helpful comparison.  If the old Epson driver were a 
'contender,' we might not even need this forum!

IMO, the relevant comparison is between the old BW 'state of the art' - MIS, IP, QTR, etc. - 
& the new printersWith 2400s actually available, I hope someone will write about that 
they've seen (perhaps doing some measurements like Jeff's, if you have the hardware).

> IMO, the relevant comparison is between the old BW 'state of the art' -
> ... & the new [Epson printers] ...

I think the better comparison is the newest third-party B&W systems and the
new Epsons.  Jon Cone has something up his sleeve, and I'm seeing what I can
do with the 7600 (and 9600), which I expect to be readily available at good
prices for B&W printers as the color printers upgrade to the 7800/9800. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

The 4800 doesn't ship in the UK until next week or the week after at the
earliest.  I will post results when I get it.

> From: Kirk Thompson <thompsonkirk@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 03:45:35 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Thoughts on the new Epsons - density of pigments etc
> 
> On the original issue of the new Epsons, we should be seeing some prints by
> now!  Has 
> anyone had a chance to print the same image with K3 inks and with another
> method that a 
> frequenter of this forum would use?  (MIS, IP, QTR, whatever?)
> 
> I'd like to know whether my old printer & RIP measure up pretty closely to the
> new 
> printers, or whether I'm stuck with a new $2000 purchase & 85 lbs. of old
> 4000.   
> 
> On PSNews,  Jeff Schewe carefully compared prints from the 2400 to the 2200
> with the 
> Epson driver, but that wasn't a very helpful comparison.  If the old Epson
> driver were a 
> 'contender,' we might not even need this forum!
> 
> IMO, the relevant comparison is between the old BW 'state of the art' - MIS,
> IP, QTR, etc. - 
> & the new printersWith 2400s actually available, I hope someone will write
> about that 
> they've seen (perhaps doing some measurements like Jeff's, if you have the
> hardware).   
>