Digital BW, The Print

Are either of these printers good candidates for B&W printing? They 
have removed the light gray ink so that leaves Black for BO printing 
but, unless I'm missing something such as the substitution of a gray 
cart for the gloss optimiser then what? Now we don't need the light 
gray?

John H

You can't do BO with the R800 (and probably not with the R1800)

> From: Mr_Misty_44 <jharvey@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:57:59 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Epson R800 & 1800
> 
> 
> 
> Are either of these printers good candidates for B&W printing? They
> have removed the light gray ink so that leaves Black for BO printing
> but, unless I'm missing something such as the substitution of a gray
> cart for the gloss optimiser then what? Now we don't need the light
> gray?
> 
> John H
>

As Steve noted in his post, Epson does not provide a black ink only 
option in the R800 (and R1800?) driver.  In theory, if the 1.5 pl dots 
were fine enough and if we could print BO, then we might not need a 
gray ink to get smooth tones.  I'm curious about why Epson doesn't want 
users printing BO with these printers.

Carl

On Feb 16, 2005, at 11:57 AM, Mr_Misty_44 wrote:

>
>
> Are either of these printers good candidates for B&W printing? They
> have removed the light gray ink so that leaves Black for BO printing
> but, unless I'm missing something such as the substitution of a gray
> cart for the gloss optimiser then what? Now we don't need the light
> gray?
>
> John H
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Following my chats with UK Tech Support I really don't think they understand
it.  They weren't even aware of the driver differences between the 2100 and
2200 and even between the 2100 RC paper and matt paper "Black" differences.
I can only suggest that people pester their local Tech support.  How about
everyone on this list that owns either a 2100 or R800 in the UK call UK Tech
support on the same day with the same complaint....

> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:23:40 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson R800 & 1800
> 
> 
> As Steve noted in his post, Epson does not provide a black ink only
> option in the R800 (and R1800?) driver.  In theory, if the 1.5 pl dots
> were fine enough and if we could print BO, then we might not need a
> gray ink to get smooth tones.  I'm curious about why Epson doesn't want
> users printing BO with these printers.
> 
> Carl
>

I recently ordered some GLOP and put it into the Y position as a 
replacement for the sepia toner.

I proceeded to try the GLOP on Epson Premium Semigloss with a custom QTR 
curve using C and LC inks. I tried everything from 10-100%, and contrary 
to others experiences here I got far better reduction of the gloss 
differential at 100% than at 10%. At 10% I would say that there was 
hardly any reduction in gloss differential at all, while at 100% the 
prints were essentially bronze-free. Unfortunately this also produced 
some visible mottling in the darker grays. I had to go back down to 
around 60% to get rid of the mopttling, but then I had some visible 
bronzing again.

The next thing I tried was a curve using PKN+LKN and 100% GLOP. This has 
produced the best results I've had so far. No bronzing or mottling, and 
I like the really like tone of the inks. I expect I'll only have to add 
minor amounts of toner the get the exactly results I want with this setup.

Anyone have an explanation for why my results are so different? I'm 
reading others here are getting bronze-free prints with just 10% GLOP, 
but that's so different from what's happening here I can hardly believe 
we're talking about the same thing.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

>
> Are either of these printers good candidates for B&W printing? ...

Maybe not yet, but I intend to see what I can do with the R1800 and a
dedicated B&W inkset.  I expect great things from it.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

My results are just like yours.  It takes me more than just 10% glop to be
effective.  With the 1280 glop curves I recommend 2880 to get rid of the
mottling.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com  
________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Staver [mailto:daniel@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:53 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] My experiences with GLOP and UT7


I recently ordered some GLOP and put it into the Y position as a 
replacement for the sepia toner.

I proceeded to try the GLOP on Epson Premium Semigloss with a custom QTR 
curve using C and LC inks. I tried everything from 10-100%, and contrary 
to others experiences here I got far better reduction of the gloss 
differential at 100% than at 10%. At 10% I would say that there was 
hardly any reduction in gloss differential at all, while at 100% the 
prints were essentially bronze-free. Unfortunately this also produced 
some visible mottling in the darker grays. I had to go back down to 
around 60% to get rid of the mopttling, but then I had some visible 
bronzing again.

The next thing I tried was a curve using PKN+LKN and 100% GLOP. This has 
produced the best results I've had so far. No bronzing or mottling, and 
I like the really like tone of the inks. I expect I'll only have to add 
minor amounts of toner the get the exactly results I want with this setup.

Anyone have an explanation for why my results are so different? I'm 
reading others here are getting bronze-free prints with just 10% GLOP, 
but that's so different from what's happening here I can hardly believe 
we're talking about the same thing.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Daniel,

It might be the paper or method of application.  I get zero bronzing 
with a 10% glop coat (applied as a flat curve during printing) on 
either Kirkland Gloss, Ilford Smoorh Pearl, or Epson Premium Semimatte 
- not semigloss.  I also get better results with the MIS inks (UT2, 
UT7, or FSN) than with Epson UC inks.

Carl

On Feb 16, 2005, at 12:52 PM, Daniel Staver wrote:

>
> I recently ordered some GLOP and put it into the Y position as a
> replacement for the sepia toner.
>
> I proceeded to try the GLOP on Epson Premium Semigloss with a custom 
> QTR
> curve using C and LC inks. I tried everything from 10-100%, and 
> contrary
> to others experiences here I got far better reduction of the gloss
> differential at 100% than at 10%. At 10% I would say that there was
> hardly any reduction in gloss differential at all, while at 100% the
> prints were essentially bronze-free. Unfortunately this also produced
> some visible mottling in the darker grays. I had to go back down to
> around 60% to get rid of the mopttling, but then I had some visible
> bronzing again.
>
> The next thing I tried was a curve using PKN+LKN and 100% GLOP. This 
> has
> produced the best results I've had so far. No bronzing or mottling, and
> I like the really like tone of the inks. I expect I'll only have to add
> minor amounts of toner the get the exactly results I want with this 
> setup.
>
> Anyone have an explanation for why my results are so different? I'm
> reading others here are getting bronze-free prints with just 10% GLOP,
> but that's so different from what's happening here I can hardly believe
> we're talking about the same thing.
>
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

John,

Epson claim that the R800 (and R1800?) don't need light magenta, light cyan, 
or light black, because the drop size is so small (1.5pl) that you can't see 
the individual dots any more, so spacing the full strength inks out more to 
get lighter colors is OK.

BO printing means what it says, Black only, not Black plus light Gray, even 
on the machines that do BO printing. There is no option for BO printing on 
the R800 (R1800?), or at least, I haven't found one.

The R800 has two settings for monochrome printing, but uses color inks as 
well, just as many of the hex-black sets do, to get cold and warm 
monochrome.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mr_Misty_44" <jharvey@...>



Are either of these printers good candidates for B&W printing? They
have removed the light gray ink so that leaves Black for BO printing
but, unless I'm missing something such as the substitution of a gray
cart for the gloss optimiser then what? Now we don't need the light
gray?

Could it be that you put your GLOP in the K position instead of the Y 
position like I'm using? Does the position of the ink matter?

Right now I'm using the UT7 inks in a 2100 with PKN in the K position 
and GLOP in the Y position. I also use a flat curve, except for 100% 
white which I leave to 0.

I have some Ilford Smooth Pearl here. I'll try that next.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

> It might be the paper or method of application.  I get zero bronzing 
> with a 10% glop coat (applied as a flat curve during printing) on 
> either Kirkland Gloss, Ilford Smoorh Pearl, or Epson Premium Semimatte 
> - not semigloss.  I also get better results with the MIS inks (UT2, 
> UT7, or FSN) than with Epson UC inks.

Daniel,

Here are the inks and positions I'm using in the 2200:

K - MIS Eboni black
LK - MIS Glop
C - PKN
LC - MIS UT7 LM gray
M - MIS PK
LM - MIS UT7 LC gray
Y - MIS UT7 Y Sepia

Warm profile is just MIS PK, MIS UT7 LC gray, and Glop.  Cool profile 
is PKN, UT7 LM gray, and Glop.  Neutral profile is PKN, MIS UT7 LM, MIS 
UT7 LC, and Glop.  Sepia profile is MIS PK, MIS UT7 LC, MIS UT7 Y 
Sepia, and Glop.

Carl

On Feb 16, 2005, at 1:28 PM, Daniel Staver wrote:

>
> Could it be that you put your GLOP in the K position instead of the Y
> position like I'm using? Does the position of the ink matter?
>
> Right now I'm using the UT7 inks in a 2100 with PKN in the K position
> and GLOP in the Y position. I also use a flat curve, except for 100%
> white which I leave to 0.
>
> I have some Ilford Smooth Pearl here. I'll try that next.
>
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no
>
>
>> It might be the paper or method of application.  I get zero bronzing
>> with a 10% glop coat (applied as a flat curve during printing) on
>> either Kirkland Gloss, Ilford Smoorh Pearl, or Epson Premium Semimatte
>> - not semigloss.  I also get better results with the MIS inks (UT2,
>> UT7, or FSN) than with Epson UC inks.
>

Could you mail me the ink descriptors for the profiles? I should be able 
to use most of them just by swapping the positions around except for the 
sepia one.

I checked your filesharing site, but couldn't find them there.

Thanks!

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

> Here are the inks and positions I'm using in the 2200:
> 
> K - MIS Eboni black
> LK - MIS Glop
> C - PKN
> LC - MIS UT7 LM gray
> M - MIS PK
> LM - MIS UT7 LC gray
> Y - MIS UT7 Y Sepia
> 
> Warm profile is just MIS PK, MIS UT7 LC gray, and Glop.  Cool profile 
> is PKN, UT7 LM gray, and Glop.  Neutral profile is PKN, MIS UT7 LM, MIS 
> UT7 LC, and Glop.  Sepia profile is MIS PK, MIS UT7 LC, MIS UT7 Y 
> Sepia, and Glop.

Carl,

Possibly because the black in these printers isn't as black as the black was 
in the dye-ink printers that did have BO options? It needs color adding to 
make it cooler (or even more warmer)? Just like a hexblack set has colors?

bob Frost.


----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Carl Schofield" <scho@...>



>  I'm curious about why Epson doesn't want
> users printing BO with these printers.

And what would the complaint be then mon ami?

Richard

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
> Sent: 16 February 2005 17:35
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson R800 & 1800
> 
> 
> Following my chats with UK Tech Support I really don't think they
> understand
> it.  They weren't even aware of the driver differences between the 2100
> and
> 2200 and even between the 2100 RC paper and matt paper "Black"
> differences.
> I can only suggest that people pester their local Tech support.  How about
> everyone on this list that owns either a 2100 or R800 in the UK call UK
> Tech
> support on the same day with the same complaint....


---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Well I can only speak for the Mac 2100 driver but:

1.  Inconsistent "Black" only ink use (when PK is installed it uses all the
inks but when MK is installed it uses just the black ink - the 2200 driver
uses just the black ink in both cases)

2.  Swapping K cartridges from PK to MK still requires a workaround

3.  The "Standard" driver does not centre images even when centred is
checked

Those who own an R800 might like the option of a true "black only" setting.
I really don't think that the Epson Tech guys understand the level of demand
for Black Only printing, nor do I think they have even tested the current
2100 drivers properly.  When I called them they didn't even have access to a
2100 to do their own tests!

> From: Richard <richard@...-bulldog.com>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:05:43 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Epson R800 & 1800
> 
> 
> And what would the complaint be then mon ami?
> 
> Richard
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
>> Sent: 16 February 2005 17:35
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson R800 & 1800
>> 
>> 
>> Following my chats with UK Tech Support I really don't think they
>> understand
>> it.  They weren't even aware of the driver differences between the 2100
>> and
>> 2200 and even between the 2100 RC paper and matt paper "Black"
>> differences.
>> I can only suggest that people pester their local Tech support.  How about
>> everyone on this list that owns either a 2100 or R800 in the UK call UK
>> Tech
>> support on the same day with the same complaint....

Steve,

> I really don't think that the Epson Tech guys understand the level of 
> demand
> for Black Only printing,

So what would it be, one in a million epson users? Most buy them to print 
color.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>

Well I would agree that most buy them for colour but that doesn't stop
demand for decent black and white. Personally I will purchase an R1800 for
colour and then only use it for B&W when it is RIP supported.  I do believe,
however, that the current driver issues for the 2100 are annoying and
dropping true "black only" support for the R800 and R1800 is a disappointing
development.  We can either take the "lump it or leave it" approach and not
comment to Epson or we can at least let them know that these are features we
would like to see fixed, in the case of the 2100, or continued in the case
of the R800/1800.  At the moment the dodos at Epson UK don't even understand
that their 2100 driver does one thing when PK is installed and another when
MK is installed.  If nobody tells them there is a problem or that we would
like to see certain options retained then they will no doubt stay firmly
seated on their no doubt large butts.  If we do alert them to issues then
perhaps they will take notice.  We can either "take what we are given" or be
assertive and perhaps bring about change.  Epson doesn't have a "black"
option for nothing - they too recognise the demand for decent B&W.  They are
just heading down a path that precludes a workflow which has satisfied many
users.

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:44:33 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson R800 & 1800
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
>> I really don't think that the Epson Tech guys understand the level of
>> demand
>> for Black Only printing,
> 
> So what would it be, one in a million epson users? Most buy them to print
> color.
> 
> Bob Frost.
>

I guess my point was that the 2200 seems to be the best candidate for 
B&W with Ultracrome inks. Even if BO printing were allowed with 
either the 800 or 1800 don't we still need the light gray. I would 
like to think that the Ultracrome B&W prints made on the 2200, 4000, 
7600, 9600, etc. Would be hard to tell from those made with a 
dedicated Quad tone ink setup, or at least, from a setup which 
contails sepia and blue toner. Is one More archival than another. Is 
one tonely superior or would it be hard to tell.

John H

With the droplet size achievable with the R800 and R1800 the light grey
doesn't add much.  Epson no doubt recognised this when they dropped it in
favour of a greater colour gamut achievable with the Red and Blue inks.  I
am sure that a quad setup would be better than black only but the greatest
strength of black only as a workflow is it's simplicity - good B&W from an
existing ink set. 

Re 2200 vs quad, I must say that the prints that I have done with a
dedicated B&W ink set have blown away what I had previously achieved using
QTR and the UC ink set.

> From: Mr_Misty_44 <jharvey@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:11:23 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] re:Epson R800 & 1800
> 
> 
> 
> I guess my point was that the 2200 seems to be the best candidate for
> B&W with Ultracrome inks. Even if BO printing were allowed with
> either the 800 or 1800 don't we still need the light gray. I would
> like to think that the Ultracrome B&W prints made on the 2200, 4000,
> 7600, 9600, etc. Would be hard to tell from those made with a
> dedicated Quad tone ink setup, or at least, from a setup which
> contails sepia and blue toner. Is one More archival than another. Is
> one tonely superior or would it be hard to tell.
> 
> John H
> 
>

"Maybe not yet, but I intend to see what I can do with the R1800 and a
dedicated B&W inkset. I expect great things from it.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com "

I'm assuming it will work with the R800, too?

Scott



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Are either of these printers good candidates for B&W printing? ...
> 
> Maybe not yet, but I intend to see what I can do with the R1800 and 
a

> dedicated B&W inkset.  I expect great things from it.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

My local dealer is going to PMA and I have asked that he get a full scale
print on Matte Paper Heavyweight to see if the glossy inks REALLY work well.
I am still afraid of a sheen on theat matte surface, especially in dark
areas.

I'll let you know.

Seth

Bob-

That said, does it give a true warm or cold tone?  In other words, are the
deeper tones neutral while the mids take on the tone?

A black, black selenium would be great.  ( I guess I hate sepia because of
so many years of the smell!!)  

Seth

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Frost [mailto:bob@...] 

The R800 has two settings for monochrome printing, but uses color inks as
well, just as many of the hex-black sets do, to get cold and warm
monochrome.

The black option is there mainly for folks to print documents that have a
splash of color but don't want to waste the ink.  Kind of like making a BW
Xerox of a document.

Epson really isn't in the B&W print business or they would be making ink
sets.

Seth

-----Original Message-----
perhaps bring about change.  Epson doesn't have a "black"
option for nothing - they too recognise the demand for decent B&W.  They are
just heading down a path that precludes a workflow which has satisfied many
users.

Seth,

I have an R800 and there's no "sheen" on matte papers.

The R800 is at it's best when printing glossy color prints.

It will be real interesting to see what kind of b&w print can be made 
when a "rip" is developed for the R800 and R1800.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Seth" 
<seth@m...> wrote:
>  
> My local dealer is going to PMA and I have asked that he get a full 
scale
> print on Matte Paper Heavyweight to see if the glossy inks REALLY 
work well.
> I am still afraid of a sheen on theat matte surface, especially in 
dark

> areas.
> 
> I'll let you know.
> 
> Seth

Hi Daniel;

I just did some 'catching up on past messages and read your post re: 
your exp. with the glop. Your exp. is similar to mine, it takes 100% 
if you overcoat it. But I've noticed time and again (even spraying 
it on with an atomizer) that the trouble crops up in the areas of 
densest LK ink, whether MIS or Epson. I think that's the culprit. 
Note that Carl's setup does not use the standard LK, but substitutes 
other inks where a light gray is needed. Keep us posted when you try 
Carl's setup; I'm about to  swap both K inks in my 7600 to PKN and 
LKN to get rid of that LK, even though it means re-doing all my 
color profiles (bleck!), a job I'm not looking forward to.
At least that way I'll have color and b&w prints that in a worst-
case I can spray with glop without problems. Too bad Paul's 
experiment mixing the glop in the inks didn't work, that would have 
been a good solution for me at least!

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Staver 
<daniel@p...> wrote:
> Could you mail me the ink descriptors for the profiles? I should 
be able 
> to use most of them just by swapping the positions around except 
for the 
> sepia one.
> 
> I checked your filesharing site, but couldn't find them there.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no
> 
> 
> > Here are the inks and positions I'm using in the 2200:
> > 
> > K - MIS Eboni black
> > LK - MIS Glop
> > C - PKN
> > LC - MIS UT7 LM gray
> > M - MIS PK
> > LM - MIS UT7 LC gray
> > Y - MIS UT7 Y Sepia
> > 
> > Warm profile is just MIS PK, MIS UT7 LC gray, and Glop.  Cool 
profile 
> > is PKN, UT7 LM gray, and Glop.  Neutral profile is PKN, MIS UT7 
LM, MIS 
> > UT7 LC, and Glop.  Sepia profile is MIS PK, MIS UT7 LC, MIS UT7 
Y 
> > Sepia, and Glop.

> It will be real interesting to see what kind of b&w print can be made 
> when a "rip" is developed for the R800 and R1800.

With the normal inkset it has I'm not convinced that having a
1.5 droplet size it will solve all BO issues. Anyone measured
the Dmax of the R800 printing an RGB 000 ?

Ernst

Hi Steve,

None of my QTR profiles use MIS LK. I've tried the following:

Warm profile:
- MIS UT7-C
- MIS UT7-LC

Cool profile:
- MIS UT7-M
- MIS UT7-LM

PKN neutral:
- MIS PKN
- MIS UT7-LK (LKN)

PKN cool:
- MIS PKN
- MIS UT7-M

All of the profiles use 100% GLOP in the Y position.

I see the same behaviour in all the profiles - I have to run the GLOP 
full strength at 100% to get rid of all the bronzing.

The first two profiles also exhibited significant mottling in the 
shadows with the GLOP at this strength. I had to go down to 50-60% to 
get rid of the mottling, but then the bronzing was back.

I also tried a reverse curve for the GLOP where it ran at 50% at a 
straight line from 0-50% and then gradually increased to full strength 
at 100% white. This got rid of some of the mottling but didn't remove 
all of the bronzing.

I see Carl's profiles consistently go straight from PK and PKN to the 
lighter gray and toner inks from the UT7 inkset while he skips the 
darker ones. I will try the same and see if that helps.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

> I just did some 'catching up on past messages and read your post re: 
> your exp. with the glop. Your exp. is similar to mine, it takes 100% 
> if you overcoat it. But I've noticed time and again (even spraying 
> it on with an atomizer) that the trouble crops up in the areas of 
> densest LK ink, whether MIS or Epson. I think that's the culprit. 
> Note that Carl's setup does not use the standard LK, but substitutes 
> other inks where a light gray is needed. Keep us posted when you try 
> Carl's setup; I'm about to  swap both K inks in my 7600 to PKN and 
> LKN to get rid of that LK, even though it means re-doing all my 
> color profiles (bleck!), a job I'm not looking forward to.
> At least that way I'll have color and b&w prints that in a worst-
> case I can spray with glop without problems. Too bad Paul's 
> experiment mixing the glop in the inks didn't work, that would have 
> been a good solution for me at least!

As an fyi to all UK readers who have thought of ordering from MIS, I just
received my first order via mail from them (I have in the past collected the
stuff in the US and personally brought it back to London).  A couple of nice
touches: they mailed the receipt separately from the goods, and marked the
goods at a very nominal amount for customs purposes.  Thanks MIS!

Carl

How are you finding things skipping the dark greys?  I have now received
another set of cartridges and am trying to decide what to do.

My understanding is that UT2 M and LM are the same as UT7 C and LC and that
UT2 Sepia is the same as UT7 sepia, so I have them.  I just got UT7 M and LM
and PKN.  So I can either run a UT7 setup or follow your approach.  I don't
mind swapping MK and PK/PKN when switching to matt paper.  I wonder how much
gain you get from PK vs PKN (rather than just PKN)?  I assume you are using
the UC_Neutraliser to blend LC and LM (and sepia)?

Steve

> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:36:01 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] My experiences with GLOP and UT7
> 
> 
> Daniel,
> 
> Here are the inks and positions I'm using in the 2200:
> 
> K - MIS Eboni black
> LK - MIS Glop
> C - PKN
> LC - MIS UT7 LM gray
> M - MIS PK
> LM - MIS UT7 LC gray
> Y - MIS UT7 Y Sepia
> 
> Warm profile is just MIS PK, MIS UT7 LC gray, and Glop.  Cool profile
> is PKN, UT7 LM gray, and Glop.  Neutral profile is PKN, MIS UT7 LM, MIS
> UT7 LC, and Glop.  Sepia profile is MIS PK, MIS UT7 LC, MIS UT7 Y
> Sepia, and Glop.
> 
> Carl
>

Steve,

Prints look fine - no coarseness in the midtones as a result of leaving 
out the dark gray inks.  No swapping is necessary with the three K inks 
installed - all bases covered.  The warm PK is used with the warm UT7 
gray for the "carbon" and sepia profiles.  Yes, the neutral profile 
uses the UC_NEUTRALIZER to blend the LC and LM grays in equal 
proportions and if you define glop (LK) as the second gray ink for 
partitioning, but use the partition value for the LC or LM.  This will 
apply glop along the LC+LM curve only or you can edit the LK curve in 
the .quad file to change the glop distribution or use a glop toner 
curve.

Carl

On Feb 17, 2005, at 11:19 AM, Steve Kale wrote:

>
> Carl
>
> How are you finding things skipping the dark greys?  I have now 
> received
> another set of cartridges and am trying to decide what to do.
>
> My understanding is that UT2 M and LM are the same as UT7 C and LC and 
> that
> UT2 Sepia is the same as UT7 sepia, so I have them.  I just got UT7 M 
> and LM
> and PKN.  So I can either run a UT7 setup or follow your approach.  I 
> don't
> mind swapping MK and PK/PKN when switching to matt paper.  I wonder 
> how much
> gain you get from PK vs PKN (rather than just PKN)?  I assume you are 
> using
> the UC_Neutraliser to blend LC and LM (and sepia)?
>
> Steve
>
>
>> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:36:01 -0500
>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] My experiences with GLOP and UT7
>>
>>
>> Daniel,
>>
>> Here are the inks and positions I'm using in the 2200:
>>
>> K - MIS Eboni black
>> LK - MIS Glop
>> C - PKN
>> LC - MIS UT7 LM gray
>> M - MIS PK
>> LM - MIS UT7 LC gray
>> Y - MIS UT7 Y Sepia
>>
>> Warm profile is just MIS PK, MIS UT7 LC gray, and Glop.  Cool profile
>> is PKN, UT7 LM gray, and Glop.  Neutral profile is PKN, MIS UT7 LM, 
>> MIS
>> UT7 LC, and Glop.  Sepia profile is MIS PK, MIS UT7 LC, MIS UT7 Y
>> Sepia, and Glop.
>>
>> Carl

"Anyone measured
the Dmax of the R800 printing an RGB 000 ?"

If I has a densitometer, I'd be more than happy to.

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> 
> > It will be real interesting to see what kind of b&w print can be 
made 

> > when a "rip" is developed for the R800 and R1800.
> 
> With the normal inkset it has I'm not convinced that having a
> 1.5 droplet size it will solve all BO issues. Anyone measured
> the Dmax of the R800 printing an RGB 000 ?
> 
> Ernst

I'll second that, took a few weeks, however the goods arrived as promised.

 

Regards

 

Jim Farrell

 

 

  _____  

I've stopped 1,730 spam and fraud messages. You can too!
One month FREE spam and fraud protection at www.cloudmark.com
<http://www.cloudmark.com/spamnet?v1&rc=> 
 <http://www.cloudmark.com/spamnet?v1&rc=> Cloudmark SafetyBar - Join the
fight against spam!



  _____  

From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...] 
Sent: 17 February 2005 13:58
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] MIS shipping to UK

 


As an fyi to all UK readers who have thought of ordering from MIS, I just
received my first order via mail from them (I have in the past collected the
stuff in the US and personally brought it back to London).  A couple of nice
touches: they mailed the receipt separately from the goods, and marked the
goods at a very nominal amount for customs purposes.  Thanks MIS!





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.







Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



ADVERTISEMENT
 
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129tsa7n3/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=gr
oups/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1108735092/A=2532114/R=2/SIG=12k4otbie/*http:/clk.a
tdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1108648692910344> 

 
<http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=110864
8692910344> 


 
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=groups/S=
:HM/A=2532114/rand=854814135> 

 

  _____  

Yahoo! Groups Links

*	To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
  
*	To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Uns
ubscribe> 
  
*	Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ok I'll give it a try albeit with slightly different ink positions (in order
to keep PKN in the K position for both B&W and colour and to maintain the
UT7 LC and LM positions).

> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Prints look fine - no coarseness in the midtones as a result of leaving
> out the dark gray inks.  No swapping is necessary with the three K inks
> installed - all bases covered.  The warm PK is used with the warm UT7
> gray for the "carbon" and sepia profiles.  Yes, the neutral profile
> uses the UC_NEUTRALIZER to blend the LC and LM grays in equal
> proportions and if you define glop (LK) as the second gray ink for
> partitioning, but use the partition value for the LC or LM.  This will
> apply glop along the LC+LM curve only or you can edit the LK curve in
> the .quad file to change the glop distribution or use a glop toner
> curve.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Feb 17, 2005, at 11:19 AM, Steve Kale wrote:
>

I, too, expect to move to having the PK and PKN in the dark gray spots of
UT7.  It may not be ideal on the older printers, but from the 2200 up,
especially with a printer utility to control the light ink loading, it looks
like the obvious way to go.  It combines a killer dmax, a way to get smooth
highlights, and the least amount of beginning bronzing.  I'll start with the
2200 and take it up to the 7600 & 9600.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

_____________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...] 
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:36 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] My experiences with GLOP and UT7


Steve,

Prints look fine - no coarseness in the midtones as a result of leaving 
out the dark gray inks.  No swapping is necessary with the three K inks 
installed - all bases covered.  The warm PK is used with the warm UT7 
gray for the "carbon" and sepia profiles.  Yes, the neutral profile 
uses the UC_NEUTRALIZER to blend the LC and LM grays in equal 
proportions and if you define glop (LK) as the second gray ink for 
partitioning, but use the partition value for the LC or LM.  This will 
apply glop along the LC+LM curve only or you can edit the LK curve in 
the .quad file to change the glop distribution or use a glop toner 
curve.

Carl

On Feb 17, 2005, at 11:19 AM, Steve Kale wrote:

>
> Carl
>
> How are you finding things skipping the dark greys?  I have now 
> received
> another set of cartridges and am trying to decide what to do.
>
> My understanding is that UT2 M and LM are the same as UT7 C and LC and 
> that
> UT2 Sepia is the same as UT7 sepia, so I have them.  I just got UT7 M 
> and LM
> and PKN.  So I can either run a UT7 setup or follow your approach.  I 
> don't
> mind swapping MK and PK/PKN when switching to matt paper.  I wonder 
> how much
> gain you get from PK vs PKN (rather than just PKN)?  I assume you are 
> using
> the UC_Neutraliser to blend LC and LM (and sepia)?
>
> Steve
>
>
>> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:36:01 -0500
>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] My experiences with GLOP and UT7
>>
>>
>> Daniel,
>>
>> Here are the inks and positions I'm using in the 2200:
>>
>> K - MIS Eboni black
>> LK - MIS Glop
>> C - PKN
>> LC - MIS UT7 LM gray
>> M - MIS PK
>> LM - MIS UT7 LC gray
>> Y - MIS UT7 Y Sepia
>>
>> Warm profile is just MIS PK, MIS UT7 LC gray, and Glop.  Cool profile
>> is PKN, UT7 LM gray, and Glop.  Neutral profile is PKN, MIS UT7 LM, 
>> MIS
>> UT7 LC, and Glop.  Sepia profile is MIS PK, MIS UT7 LC, MIS UT7 Y
>> Sepia, and Glop.
>>
>> Carl




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

scott_now_coming wrote:
> 
> "Anyone measured
> the Dmax of the R800 printing an RGB 000 ?"
> 
> If I has a densitometer, I'd be more than happy to.
> 
> Scott

>>>when a "rip" is developed for the R800 and R1800.
>>
>>With the normal inkset it has I'm not convinced that having a
>>1.5 droplet size it will solve all BO issues. Anyone measured
>>the Dmax of the R800 printing an RGB 000 ?
>>
>>Ernst

I think there are two other issues that have to be checked 
before the R800 with its normal inkset can be declared the 
ultimate BO printer.
Is the black itself neutral enough.
Is the number of black nozzles high enough for a homogene BO 
print (an old horse I'm riding again).

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> 
> As an fyi to all UK readers who have thought of ordering from MIS, I
just
> received my first order via mail from them (I have in the past
collected the
> stuff in the US and personally brought it back to London).  A couple
of nice
> touches: they mailed the receipt separately from the goods, and
marked the
> goods at a very nominal amount for customs purposes.  Thanks MIS!

I buy inks regularly from MIS in the US for shipping to the UK. 
They've never taken more than 7 days from order placement to receipt.
 Well packed, good documentation, no customs problems - an all round
excellent service.  Thanks from me too.

Steve Gledhill
http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk

I've just had a look at your site. Rather excellent images if I might say
so.
But what "you" do not say is what scanner you use?

Richard

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Gledhill [mailto:stephengledhill@...]
> Sent: 17 February 2005 20:29
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: MIS shipping to UK
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> >
> > As an fyi to all UK readers who have thought of ordering from MIS, I
> just
> > received my first order via mail from them (I have in the past
> collected the
> > stuff in the US and personally brought it back to London).  A couple
> of nice
> > touches: they mailed the receipt separately from the goods, and
> marked the
> > goods at a very nominal amount for customs purposes.  Thanks MIS!
> 
> I buy inks regularly from MIS in the US for shipping to the UK.
> They've never taken more than 7 days from order placement to receipt.
>  Well packed, good documentation, no customs problems - an all round
> excellent service.  Thanks from me too.
> 
> Steve Gledhill
> http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility
> to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
> currently using to read this email. ]
> 



---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard"
<richard@r...> wrote:
> I've just had a look at your site. Rather excellent images if I
might say
> so.
> But what "you" do not say is what scanner you use?
> 
> Richard
> 

An Epson 4870 using Silverfast to scan 5"x4" sheets film.

Steve Gledhill
http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steve Gledhill [mailto:stephengledhill@y...]
> > Sent: 17 February 2005 20:29
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: MIS shipping to UK
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> > <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> > >
> > > As an fyi to all UK readers who have thought of ordering from MIS, I
> > just
> > > received my first order via mail from them (I have in the past
> > collected the
> > > stuff in the US and personally brought it back to London).  A couple
> > of nice
> > > touches: they mailed the receipt separately from the goods, and
> > marked the
> > > goods at a very nominal amount for customs purposes.  Thanks MIS!
> > 
> > I buy inks regularly from MIS in the US for shipping to the UK.
> > They've never taken more than 7 days from order placement to receipt.
> >  Well packed, good documentation, no customs problems - an all round
> > excellent service.  Thanks from me too.
> > 
> > Steve Gledhill
> > http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk
> >

From a friend of mine in Japan, the average Black Dmax (DeltaE) from his tests on a substantial range of papers his precision Laboratory L.a.b. Densitometer was 1.87
 
How use full this is I am not sure.
 
Forest John

scott_now_coming <scott_now_coming@...> wrote: 

"Anyone measured
the Dmax of the R800 printing an RGB 000 ?"

If I has a densitometer, I'd be more than happy to.

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> 
> > It will be real interesting to see what kind of b&w print can be 
made 
> > when a "rip" is developed for the R800 and R1800.
> 
> With the normal inkset it has I'm not convinced that having a
> 1.5 droplet size it will solve all BO issues. Anyone measured
> the Dmax of the R800 printing an RGB 000 ?
> 
> Ernst





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
document.write('');

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

   To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
  
   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  
   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 





		
---------------------------------
 ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Anyone measured
 >the Dmax of the R800 printing an RGB 000 ?
 >
 >Ernst

On Ilford Smooth Gloss, in excess of 2.3.  Mine is fully icc profiled so I 
print b+w in full colour mode, not "greyscale".  The prints are neutral in 
daylight but warm up in artificial light. The warm tone is not unlike a 
selenium toned silver print, it's not the nasty magenta that some inks 
exhibit.  Even so, it's significant metamerism.

Regards
Richard

I think the experience I have had over the last couple of days may be
relevant here.  My previous work with glop was using it with QTR during the
original ink lay down - "glop in the mix" so to speak.  Over the last two
days I have been working on a colour image with substantial areas of B&W (a
landscape where I have overlaid a channel mixer B&W layer but set the
opacity to 75% so that the foreground has colour but the mountain ranges,
sky and clouds are essentially a black and white image).  So the original
image was printed on Epson Premium Luster with the Epson driver and I have
been using QTR to overcoat the image with glop.

The uncoated image has all the usual bronzing issues especially in the
clouds.  A straight 15% (ex white) glop coating significantly reduced but
did not kill the bronzing.  I then used a glop curve that more closely
resembled the sort of curve I was using when glop was in the mix.  The toner
curve begins at (0,15%), climbs rapidly to peak at (20,75%), declines
steadily to (75,20%) and then to (100,15%).  This eliminated the bronzing
subject to my comments below.  To be clear, I send the Adobe RGB image to
QTR which gets converted on-the-fly to greyscale and the relevant glop
amount deposited according to the on-the-fly conversion.

But there are other issues.  It is very difficult to align the Epson print
with QTR - they each have slightly different paper sizes. (Unfortunately I
am trying to get a Super A3/B image done!)  My last test has a misalignment
of about 2mm.  As a result I can clearly see the shift in glop application
and, especially looking around the edges of the clouds, see where the glop
missed the cloud and hit the black sky.  I can also see the bronzing left
where the glop did not hit in sufficient quantity.  Where the extra glop has
hit the black or darker shades of the print there is a noticeable punch in
density and possible sheen difference (especially under halogen lighting).

So over-coating with a variable glop application may be susceptible to
aligning the two print runs.  Obviously this would be easier if both images
were printed using the same driver.  I think the peak bronzing problem area
is around L values of 70-90 and I guess that is where the LK comes into
play.

I would be very interested if someone with an R800 can print a B&W image
with lots of clouds against a very dark sky using the colour driver (not
black) and tell us whether the print exhibits bronzing (don't worry about
metamerism) without glop and then with glop, as the R800 does not have an LK
ink.  (I would be happy to provide a jpeg of the image I am playing with.)
I would also love to know the density difference between a glopless black
patch and a with-glop black patch.

Cheers

Steve

Steve Kale wrote:
 >
 >I would be very interested if someone with an R800 can print a B&W image
 >with lots of clouds against a very dark sky using the colour driver (not
 >black) and tell us whether the print exhibits bronzing (don't worry about
 >metamerism) without glop and then with glop, as the R800 does not have an LK
 >ink.  (I would be happy to provide a jpeg of the image I am playing with.)
 >I would also love to know the density difference between a glopless black
 >patch and a with-glop black patch.
 >

I tried this myself a week or two back.  The non-glop version does exhibit 
significant bronzing, reduced to almost zero with glop on.  This was on 
PermaJet Oyster.

As I understand it the Epson glop is applied only in the highlight areas 
where there is little pigment in order to equalise the gloss across the 
whole print.  I haven't done a scientific Dmax test with and without glop 
but just measuring a shadow area on each print shows no difference in the 
readings.

Hope that helps
Regards
Richard

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Gledhill [mailto:stephengledhill@...]
> Sent: 18 February 2005 06:58
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: MIS shipping to UK
> >
> 
> An Epson 4870 using Silverfast to scan 5"x4" sheets film.
> 
> Steve Gledhill
> http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk 

They claim (Epson)a 16 bit image - is that really true? I ask that because I
am looking at the latest of their 4000 range at this very time and 16 bits
are a lot better than 12 bits.

Thank you for that reply by the way and I should have asked the following
question last time out but forgot to so do......

Are you dish developing or have you so much money you can afford a full
blown nitrogen burst tank system.

I also assume that using the RIP that you do and the inks under discussion,
you must have a spectro and/or a densitometer in regular use.

Richard


---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Richard

Thanks.  Seems like the culprit is not LK then.  In my tests of dMax using
MIS UC inks and glop, adding as little as 15% glop to a black patch boosted
dMax significantly.

Steve

> From: Richard Ross / RH Designs <richard@...>


> 
> I tried this myself a week or two back.  The non-glop version does exhibit
> significant bronzing, reduced to almost zero with glop on.  This was on
> PermaJet Oyster.
> 
> As I understand it the Epson glop is applied only in the highlight areas
> where there is little pigment in order to equalise the gloss across the
> whole print.  I haven't done a scientific Dmax test with and without glop
> but just measuring a shadow area on each print shows no difference in the
> readings.
> 
> Hope that helps
> Regards
> Richard

I just measured the darkest corner of the image I am working on (not a 100%
K patch).  L=6.1 (density 2.17) with 15% glop overcoat.  L=3.8 with 60% glop
overcoat (density 2.38).  MIS UC inks (PK).

Interestingly I found earlier that when glop was "in the mix" it reduced
dMax.


60% flat overcoat shows no bronzing and no gloss differential.  The sheen of
the Luster paper has increased dramatically - losing much of the silky satin
look, which IMO is a shame.

I am beginning to think that a flat overcoat may be best.  At least there is
an even sheen and no bronzing.  dMax is boosted rather than reduced.

Steve,

Great densities.  I measured L* values of 4 for Dmax in a custom 
color profile I built for a friend's R800 using glop with the 
standard Epson driver.  This was on Kirkland Glossy paper.  I know, 
probably not the same ink mix, but it jives with your findings.  

How does the glop overcoat or concurrent glop use compare to using 
something like PremierArt Print Guard?  I'd be curious if you have 
done any comparisons.

Thanks, Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> I just measured the darkest corner of the image I am working on 
(not a 100%
> K patch).  L=6.1 (density 2.17) with 15% glop overcoat.  L=3.8 with 
60% glop
> overcoat (density 2.38).  MIS UC inks (PK).
> 
> Interestingly I found earlier that when glop was "in the mix" it 
reduced
> dMax.
> 
> 
> 60% flat overcoat shows no bronzing and no gloss differential.  The 
sheen of
> the Luster paper has increased dramatically - losing much of the 
silky satin
> look, which IMO is a shame.
> 
> I am beginning to think that a flat overcoat may be best.  At least 
there is
> an even sheen and no bronzing.  dMax is boosted rather than reduced.

I haven't tested it specifically.  In general I was not happy with Lyson
Print Guard (same thing?) because spraying (a) was very messy, (b) mottled
the blacks easily, and (c) was prone to trapping/attracting dust.  I think
the use of glop makes things a lot easier and consistent.  I think 60%
overcoat is likely more than necessary and I will try dropping down to 50%.
I just dropped PKN in place of PK in my colour MIS UC set and will reprofile
with 50% glop.

> From: Louis Dina <lbdina@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:13:48 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Overcoating with glop (was My experiences with GLOP
> and UT7)
> 
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Great densities.  I measured L* values of 4 for Dmax in a custom
> color profile I built for a friend's R800 using glop with the
> standard Epson driver.  This was on Kirkland Glossy paper.  I know,
> probably not the same ink mix, but it jives with your findings.
> 
> How does the glop overcoat or concurrent glop use compare to using
> something like PremierArt Print Guard?  I'd be curious if you have
> done any comparisons.
> 
> Thanks, Lou

Steve,

I've been overcoating RC prints from my 4000 (MIS UC with PKN and UT7 
LKN) in a 2200 using a glop only profile set at limit 50% for glop.  
Completely eliminates bronzing and gloss differential.

Carl

On Feb 18, 2005, at 10:00 AM, Steve Kale wrote:

>
> I haven't tested it specifically.  In general I was not happy with 
> Lyson
> Print Guard (same thing?) because spraying (a) was very messy, (b) 
> mottled
> the blacks easily, and (c) was prone to trapping/attracting dust.  I 
> think
> the use of glop makes things a lot easier and consistent.  I think 60%
> overcoat is likely more than necessary and I will try dropping down to 
> 50%.
> I just dropped PKN in place of PK in my colour MIS UC set and will 
> reprofile
> with 50% glop.
>
>
>> From: Louis Dina <lbdina@...>
>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:13:48 -0000
>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Overcoating with glop (was My experiences 
>> with GLOP
>> and UT7)
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve,
>>
>> Great densities.  I measured L* values of 4 for Dmax in a custom
>> color profile I built for a friend's R800 using glop with the
>> standard Epson driver.  This was on Kirkland Glossy paper.  I know,
>> probably not the same ink mix, but it jives with your findings.
>>
>> How does the glop overcoat or concurrent glop use compare to using
>> something like PremierArt Print Guard?  I'd be curious if you have
>> done any comparisons.
>>
>> Thanks, Lou
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ 
> AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yeah I think that is going to be about right.  I wish it didn't lift the
gloss of the image so much.  I like the silky look of Luster (much more so
than Ilford Smooth Pearl).  Guess one can't have it all.  But there is
definitely something in using the printer to coat rather than a spray etc.
Perhaps the MIS chemists can find other better solutions targeting the issue
more specifically.  I will likely have to coat the whole page as I can't get
alignment between the Epson driver and QTR when coating colour work.  I am
measuring the dMin and dMax impact of the gloss coat and will report.

> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:35:41 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Overcoating with glop (was My experiences with GLOP
> and UT7)
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> I've been overcoating RC prints from my 4000 (MIS UC with PKN and UT7
> LKN) in a 2200 using a glop only profile set at limit 50% for glop.
> Completely eliminates bronzing and gloss differential.
> 
> Carl
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard"
<richard@r...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steve Gledhill [mailto:stephengledhill@y...]
> > Sent: 18 February 2005 06:58
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: MIS shipping to UK
> > >
> > 
> > An Epson 4870 using Silverfast to scan 5"x4" sheets film.
> > 
> > Steve Gledhill
> > http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk 
> 
> They claim (Epson)a 16 bit image - is that really true? I ask that
because I
> am looking at the latest of their 4000 range at this very time and
16 bits
> are a lot better than 12 bits.

The only way I have of knowing is that once the image is in Photoshop
it acts like it has far greater bit depth than an 8 bit image.  But
otherwise I can't give an authoritative answer.  How can anyone tell
the actual bit depth?

> Thank you for that reply by the way and I should have asked the
following
> question last time out but forgot to so do......
> 
> Are you dish developing or have you so much money you can afford a full
> blown nitrogen burst tank system.

I'll ignore the rather nosey way you asked the question - "have you so
much money ..."' and answer in a way that may be of interest in this
forum - I use a Jobo rotary tank (manually rolled, not machine
processed) to process up to 12 5"x4" sheets at a time.
 
> I also assume that using the RIP that you do and the inks under
discussion,
> you must have a spectro and/or a densitometer in regular use.
> 
> Richard

I don't routinely use any RIP software.  I have tried and like Roy's
QTR.  Most of my work is printed with UT7 inks adjusted to my liking
using the sliders in the Epson driver.  And I don't have any density
measuring equipment.

My approach to producing my work is very very simple.  Tried and
tested products used in a standard way.  Once I find a combination of
settings by trial and error that I like I adopt them as my standard. 
I don't forever fiddle.  I concentrate on capturing the images rather
than finessing all of the multitude of printing options available to me.

Steve
http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk

FYI here are some results of applying a straight 50% glop to various papers.
I took the measurements while doing some colour profiling using an Eye One
and the i1 TC 9.1B RGB Testchart.  I started by recording measurements of
patch 17A only to later realise it was not the darkest patch!  I
subsequently also measured patch 1A.  I also measured the impact on paper
white which was noticeable much more so than with coatings of 15% and 20%.
(Lab readings) There are a few gaps but it still might be helpful.

Epson Premium Luster:

Paper white pre glop    96.1  -0.4  -4.1
Paper white post glop   94.2  -0.7  -3.7
Patch 17A pre glop       6.6
Patch 17A post glop      4.2  -3.5   1.1
Patch 1A pre glop
Patch 1A post glop       2.5   0.2  -0.2

Ilford Smooth Pearl

Paper white pre glop    96.6   0.2  -5.8
Paper white post glop   94.8  -0.3  -5.4
Patch 17A pre glop 
Patch 17A post glop     4.1   -3.4   1.0
Patch 1A pre glop
Patch 1A post glop      2.5   0.2   -0.3

EPSG

Paper white pre glop    95.1  -0.6  -3.9
Paper white post glop   94.8  -0.8  -3.4
Patch 17A pre glop       6.2  -3.6   0.1
Patch 17A post glop      4.2  -3.3   1.0
Patch 1A pre glop        4.3   0.2  -1.4
Patch 1A post glop       2.6   0.3  -0.3

Wow,

Those are some great Dmax numbers, translating to a density of about 
2.55.  That's right up there with a great wet darkroom print.  Thanks 
for the feedback.

Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> FYI here are some results of applying a straight 50% glop to 
various papers.
> I took the measurements while doing some colour profiling using an 
Eye One
> and the i1 TC 9.1B RGB Testchart.  I started by recording 
measurements of
> patch 17A only to later realise it was not the darkest patch!  I
> subsequently also measured patch 1A.  I also measured the impact on 
paper
> white which was noticeable much more so than with coatings of 15% 
and 20%.

> (Lab readings) There are a few gaps but it still might be helpful.
> 
> Epson Premium Luster:
> 
> Paper white pre glop    96.1  -0.4  -4.1
> Paper white post glop   94.2  -0.7  -3.7
> Patch 17A pre glop       6.6
> Patch 17A post glop      4.2  -3.5   1.1
> Patch 1A pre glop
> Patch 1A post glop       2.5   0.2  -0.2
> 
> Ilford Smooth Pearl
> 
> Paper white pre glop    96.6   0.2  -5.8
> Paper white post glop   94.8  -0.3  -5.4
> Patch 17A pre glop 
> Patch 17A post glop     4.1   -3.4   1.0
> Patch 1A pre glop
> Patch 1A post glop      2.5   0.2   -0.3
> 
> EPSG
> 
> Paper white pre glop    95.1  -0.6  -3.9
> Paper white post glop   94.8  -0.8  -3.4
> Patch 17A pre glop       6.2  -3.6   0.1
> Patch 17A post glop      4.2  -3.3   1.0
> Patch 1A pre glop        4.3   0.2  -1.4
> Patch 1A post glop       2.6   0.3  -0.3

Yeah.  The weird stuff is the paper white.  I just re-measured Epson Premium
Luster (it's been hanging for around 9-10 hours) and it is 94.7 -0.6 -4.2
without glop and constant at 94.2 -0.7 -3.5 with glop. Yet it looks dirtier
where there is glop. Photorag doesn't look as bright to my eye yet reads
97.2 0.5 -0.4.  The RC papers have a noticeable baby blue tint when compared
with HPR.  But I will take the extra dMax anyday!

> From: Louis Dina <lbdina@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:23:08 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Overcoating with glop (was My experiences with GLOP
> and UT7)
> 
> 
> 
> Wow,
> 
> Those are some great Dmax numbers, translating to a density of about
> 2.55.  That's right up there with a great wet darkroom print.  Thanks
> for the feedback.
> 
> Lou
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> FYI here are some results of applying a straight 50% glop to
> various papers.
>> I took the measurements while doing some colour profiling using an
> Eye One
>> and the i1 TC 9.1B RGB Testchart.  I started by recording
> measurements of
>> patch 17A only to later realise it was not the darkest patch!  I
>> subsequently also measured patch 1A.  I also measured the impact on
> paper
>> white which was noticeable much more so than with coatings of 15%
> and 20%.
>> (Lab readings) There are a few gaps but it still might be helpful.
>> 
>> Epson Premium Luster:
>> 
>> Paper white pre glop    96.1  -0.4  -4.1
>> Paper white post glop   94.2  -0.7  -3.7
>> Patch 17A pre glop       6.6
>> Patch 17A post glop      4.2  -3.5   1.1
>> Patch 1A pre glop
>> Patch 1A post glop       2.5   0.2  -0.2
>> 
>> Ilford Smooth Pearl
>> 
>> Paper white pre glop    96.6   0.2  -5.8
>> Paper white post glop   94.8  -0.3  -5.4
>> Patch 17A pre glop
>> Patch 17A post glop     4.1   -3.4   1.0
>> Patch 1A pre glop
>> Patch 1A post glop      2.5   0.2   -0.3
>> 
>> EPSG
>> 
>> Paper white pre glop    95.1  -0.6  -3.9
>> Paper white post glop   94.8  -0.8  -3.4
>> Patch 17A pre glop       6.2  -3.6   0.1
>> Patch 17A post glop      4.2  -3.3   1.0
>> Patch 1A pre glop        4.3   0.2  -1.4
>> Patch 1A post glop       2.6   0.3  -0.3
>

Carl

Have you tried amounts less than 50%?  50% is still quite a heavy
application.  20% is not enough but was wondering if there was a better
sweet spot in between.

Steve

Steve,

No, I haven't tried fine tuning the "optimum" glop overcoat 
application.  Easy enough to do with a few prints, but will probably 
vary with paper type and perhaps even different images printed.

Carl

On Feb 19, 2005, at 1:26 PM, Steve Kale wrote:

>
> Carl
>
> Have you tried amounts less than 50%?  50% is still quite a heavy
> application.  20% is not enough but was wondering if there was a better
> sweet spot in between.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ 
> AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yeah guess so. I may try a lower application over time.  50% works well but
I would prefer a little less change to the paper texture.  50% makes the
paper look a little "sticky".  I like the silky smooth look of uncoated
Luster.  

I just coated some hybrid B&W/colour prints and, even if I do say so myself,
the results are stunning.  I don't have much B&W darkroom printing
experience but these are as good as any cibachrome prints I have seen.  I
would be interested in any feedback that might come from someone circulating
such prints in any print exchanges.

> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>

> 
> Steve,
> 
> No, I haven't tried fine tuning the "optimum" glop overcoat
> application.  Easy enough to do with a few prints, but will probably
> vary with paper type and perhaps even different images printed.
> 
> Carl
>

FYI a glop ink limit of 40% leaves some slight residual bronzing on EPSG.

Carl Schofield wrote:

>Daniel,
>
>It might be the paper or method of application.  I get zero bronzing 
>with a 10% glop coat (applied as a flat curve during printing) on 
>either Kirkland Gloss, Ilford Smoorh Pearl, or Epson Premium Semimatte 
>- not semigloss.  I also get better results with the MIS inks (UT2, 
>UT7, or FSN) than with Epson UC inks.
>
>Carl
>  
>
Carl,

I'm now at the point where I can rearrange the inks on my quad 9000 
before starting curves and linearisations for QTR. The choice is 7 
positions too as I can exchange an extra black line + damper at the head 
directly. That one is filled with PK which I use less than Eboni. I 
wonder how well a gloss inkline works when it has to share the same 
capping station with the other (dark) inks. No occasional smears 
happening that way ? If anything like that occurs I rather use another 
method, printer for glop. You have the glop at the black head side as I 
understand it.

The messages mention the use of the Epson glop in the R800 as a reversed 
print that gives most glop on the paper white reducing it to black. To 
equalise the differential. That can be done in QTR right now with the 
curves I think but would another extra condition (none, gray, toner, 
glop)  make it easier ? That method can only be done properly with glop 
applied on the same machine.

A question on grey inks + separations. Right now I use Eboni in the M 
position, a MIS middle grey in the LM position, the same grey in the C 
position and a light MIS grey in the LC position. The heavy cool MIS 
toner in the Black position. Yellow position isn't used right now.. This 
arrangement works best for linearising with the CMYK channeled Wasatch 
SoftRIP that I have. LInearisng is done on M+LM,  C+LC and K and Y 
separate. Makes life simpler to fit the inks to that system. I wonder 
how I can use the same two middle greys together in QTR. I'm quite happy 
with just 3 grey inks for the whole range but an extra set of nozzles 
for the middle of the range is nice too. So is there a way that I can 
keep the two middle greys functioning in the same way as they do now 
(more or less) in QTR ? If it is not possible right now I can spare that 
position for another toner or glop.

With an extra printer for glop/varnishing it would be possible to use a 
two component resin, one component per head. I have a UV curing 
polyurethane that works quite nice for gloss paper by silkscreen 
application but can't be used on matte paper. It must be possible to 
make a 2 component one that's more fluid too. Will ask the supplier.

Staedtler has a new water borne ink range that can be applied on a range 
of uncoated media. It is called Lumocolor and has the same ink base the 
Lumocolor felt pens have. On some substrates (plastics etc) the print 
has to be heated to 80 degrees celsius to give them outdoor quality. Can 
be used on the wide formats piezos including the Epsons but needs a 
heater for the materials mentioned. A varnish like that may be 
interesting too for our Epsons, heating if necessary can be done later on.

http://www.staedtler-inkjet.com/Inkjet_Lumocolor_Jet_Tinte.Staedtler?ActiveID=41956

Ernst

Hi Ernst

Take a look at my recent post under " glop concept goofy, temporary?"  I
tried a bunch of toner curves for glop.  I have settled for now on a
two-step overcoating solution (for both B&W and colour).  I really do think
it is worth exploring the printer coating notion more generally but I would
prefer it to be done from a chemistry level rather than trial and error!

Steve

> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>
<snip>

> The messages mention the use of the Epson glop in the R800 as a reversed
> print that gives most glop on the paper white reducing it to black. To
> equalise the differential. That can be done in QTR right now with the
> curves I think but would another extra condition (none, gray, toner,
> glop)  make it easier ? That method can only be done properly with glop
> applied on the same machine.
> 
 
> With an extra printer for glop/varnishing it would be possible to use a
> two component resin, one component per head. I have a UV curing
> polyurethane that works quite nice for gloss paper by silkscreen
> application but can't be used on matte paper. It must be possible to
> make a 2 component one that's more fluid too. Will ask the supplier.
>

Ernst,

I have the glop in the light black position in the 2200.  I did try  
glop first in the K position when I was using the FSN inks, but I  
switched to a different inkset and moved glop to the LK slot.  The  
current inks and positions are:

K - MIS Eboni black
LK - MIS Glop
C - PKN
LC - MIS UT7 LM gray
M - MIS PK
LM - MIS UT7 LC gray
Y - MIS UT7 Y Sepia


You can run your two middle gray inks together on the same curve if you  
wish.  On the Mac you currently would need to put the two middle gray  
inks in the LC and LM slots to do this, but I understand that on the PC  
you can duplicate curves for any ink positions.  Roy or Daniel may be  
able to clariify this point.

I've tried applying glop with different curves (inverse to density,  
only with gray inks, and flat overlay) the simple overlay and gray ink  
tracking seem to work best.  Applying glop only to non inked areas does  
not work well with the UT or UC inks and the print surface has an  
uneven gloss appearance.  I know that with the R800 and high gloss inks  
this is the approach epson uses, but I understand that the glop and  
inks they use have an equal gloss.

I use my 2200 with a glop only profile for glopping prints from my  
4000.  Works well with a simple 50% overlay.

Carl

On Feb 23, 2005, at 4:34 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

>
> Carl Schofield wrote:
>
>> Daniel,
>>
>> It might be the paper or method of application.  I get zero bronzing
>> with a 10% glop coat (applied as a flat curve during printing) on
>> either Kirkland Gloss, Ilford Smoorh Pearl, or Epson Premium Semimatte
>> - not semigloss.  I also get better results with the MIS inks (UT2,
>> UT7, or FSN) than with Epson UC inks.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
> Carl,
>
> I'm now at the point where I can rearrange the inks on my quad 9000
> before starting curves and linearisations for QTR. The choice is 7
> positions too as I can exchange an extra black line + damper at the  
> head
> directly. That one is filled with PK which I use less than Eboni. I
> wonder how well a gloss inkline works when it has to share the same
> capping station with the other (dark) inks. No occasional smears
> happening that way ? If anything like that occurs I rather use another
> method, printer for glop. You have the glop at the black head side as I
> understand it.
>
> The messages mention the use of the Epson glop in the R800 as a  
> reversed
> print that gives most glop on the paper white reducing it to black. To
> equalise the differential. That can be done in QTR right now with the
> curves I think but would another extra condition (none, gray, toner,
> glop)  make it easier ? That method can only be done properly with glop
> applied on the same machine.
>
> A question on grey inks + separations. Right now I use Eboni in the M
> position, a MIS middle grey in the LM position, the same grey in the C
> position and a light MIS grey in the LC position. The heavy cool MIS
> toner in the Black position. Yellow position isn't used right now..  
> This
> arrangement works best for linearising with the CMYK channeled Wasatch
> SoftRIP that I have. LInearisng is done on M+LM,  C+LC and K and Y
> separate. Makes life simpler to fit the inks to that system. I wonder
> how I can use the same two middle greys together in QTR. I'm quite  
> happy
> with just 3 grey inks for the whole range but an extra set of nozzles
> for the middle of the range is nice too. So is there a way that I can
> keep the two middle greys functioning in the same way as they do now
> (more or less) in QTR ? If it is not possible right now I can spare  
> that
> position for another toner or glop.
>
> With an extra printer for glop/varnishing it would be possible to use a
> two component resin, one component per head. I have a UV curing
> polyurethane that works quite nice for gloss paper by silkscreen
> application but can't be used on matte paper. It must be possible to
> make a 2 component one that's more fluid too. Will ask the supplier.
>
> Staedtler has a new water borne ink range that can be applied on a  
> range
> of uncoated media. It is called Lumocolor and has the same ink base the
> Lumocolor felt pens have. On some substrates (plastics etc) the print
> has to be heated to 80 degrees celsius to give them outdoor quality.  
> Can
> be used on the wide formats piezos including the Epsons but needs a
> heater for the materials mentioned. A varnish like that may be
> interesting too for our Epsons, heating if necessary can be done later  
> on.
>
> http://www.staedtler-inkjet.com/Inkjet_Lumocolor_Jet_Tinte.Staedtler? 
> ActiveID=41956
>
> Ernst
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to  
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from  
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the  
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER”  
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE  
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE  
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT  
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),  
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF  
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD  
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER  
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Ernst,

>The messages mention the use of the Epson glop in the R800 as a reversed 
>print that gives most glop on the paper white reducing it to black. 

Has an R800 owner actually tested this?  It sure doesn't work that way with
MIS glop.

>With an extra printer for glop/varnishing it would be possible to use a 
>two component resin, one component per head. ...

The 2 component polyurethanes can be very strong coatings.  I wonder in the
inkjet setting if the 2 jets of it would overlap properly for mixing.  Even
if they overlap sufficiently, is there enough mixing on the paper to avoid
having the separate components only partially mixed and cured?  I'd also
want to be sure there was no setting up of the PUR on the head or parking
pad.  I'm not sure if the UV cure types stay totally liquid in the absence
of strong UV or if they would slowly cure on the head and parking pad.

With those caveats, however, I think the 2 component approach has great
promise for coatings and inks themselves.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, you wrote:

>
>  
>
>>With an extra printer for glop/varnishing it would be possible to use a 
>>two component resin, one component per head. ...
>>    
>>
>
>The 2 component polyurethanes can be very strong coatings.  I wonder in the
>inkjet setting if the 2 jets of it would overlap properly for mixing.  Even
>if they overlap sufficiently, is there enough mixing on the paper to avoid
>having the separate components only partially mixed and cured?  I'd also
>want to be sure there was no setting up of the PUR on the head or parking
>pad.  I'm not sure if the UV cure types stay totally liquid in the absence
>of strong UV or if they would slowly cure on the head and parking pad.
>  
>


>With those caveats, however, I think the 2 component approach has great
>promise for coatings and inks themselves.
>  
>
The UV curable aliphatic polyurethane that I have here is too thick for inkjets and probably too aggressive for the rubber/elastomere components of the capping station, wiper, seals of the Epson. It also isn't a nice varnish for matte papers as it penetrates the paper too much and by that isn't easily cured with UV light, it keeps its smell when not cured so I think you better forget that. On gloss it is nice but you need a UV curing unit. It will not cure without enough UV light so that's not the problem.

Two components on an Epson 9000 is also a risk as the wiper blade runs from black to yellow and will bring one component in contact with the other component on the heads themselves. Running without a wiper blade is the only option and may not be as stupid as it looks, applying a varnish with more heads doesn't rely on all nozzles functioning. The 10000 has another wiper system.  The three  wiper blades run over the 3 head assemblage of that printer from top to bottom so there the risk of mixing on the head is lower. I'm not afraid of the varnish not mixing on the surface of the paper, it will be an acceptable layer thickness and migration of the agents within the layer happens. 

I'm more interested in the Staedtler ink base however. The inks are already tested on Epsons. But nowhere is a description what the gloss of the ink is. There's a silkscreen printshop supplier nearby that sells the ink, will get some samples of prints and ask Staedtler for bulk base. They claim a good fade resistance for the inks. Comparing them with silkscreen inks and Vutek outdoor inks. The gamut should be better than Mimaki's pigment inks but the last are not at Epson's level. Printing on uncoated aquarel paper is mentioned. Heating isn't required on porous materials but I guess not forbidden either, a resin in the ink melts according to the webpage. All in German however. No Staedtler on the PMA ?

Ernst