Digital BW, The Print

I have Glop working in the 1280 with the Epson driver.  I have an Ilford
Galerie Smooth Pearl with and without glop for comparison.  Both have about
the same general, overall golden sheen from a tungsten spot light, but when
reflections form an overhead fluorescent light are seen on the surface, the
glop makes a huge difference.  There is none what I consider the irritating
differential, bronze reflection.

 

The glop was in the Y position of a 1280 cart, with UT-FSN CMCM in the
others.  The black was generated by the C + M, Eboni was in the K spot.

 

Curves are needed to control the glop.  When the PK is in the K spot the
glop seems to accentuate the gloss differential from the black ink.

 

There is no way to measure it, so it's an eyeball deal, and it took a lot of
glop the worst places of the print.  The idea of a straight 10% curve did
not work at with Ilford.

 

So, the question is what is it worth doing with?

 

One thought is that in the UT2 inkset, it might just replace the sepia in
the Y position and then not have that much affect on the other curves.  If
that is the case, having a UT2-Glop might make sense.  I'm not going to
spend much time on the 1280.  So, if it could just be switched into the Y
spot and the other curves worked, it might be an easy way to go.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Paul,

I'm pleasantly surprised to see you're trying this-for one, I 
wouldn't think you had the time.

I must say though, I think you're missing a point I perhaps didn't 
make well enough during the earlier round on glop-coating, regarding 
the position. Everyone is hell-bent on putting it in one of the 
color channels-that may be fine for that particular machine, but 
glop-coating a print made on another machine at another time HAS to 
be easier if the glop is in the K channel. You can still control it 
via a curve and intergrate it when printing on that machine, but 
doing a separate pass as an overcoat is simpler this way. And the 
dot size on a 7500 is the coarsest in the K channel. If you're going 
to give one over to glop, this to me makes the most sense.

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> I have Glop working in the 1280 with the Epson driver.  I have an 
Ilford
> Galerie Smooth Pearl with and without glop for comparison.  Both 
have about
> the same general, overall golden sheen from a tungsten spot light, 
but when
> reflections form an overhead fluorescent light are seen on the 
surface, the
> glop makes a huge difference.  There is none what I consider the 
irritating
> differential, bronze reflection.
> 
>  
> 
> The glop was in the Y position of a 1280 cart, with UT-FSN CMCM in 
the
> others.  The black was generated by the C + M, Eboni was in the K 
spot.
> 
>  
> 
> Curves are needed to control the glop.  When the PK is in the K 
spot the
> glop seems to accentuate the gloss differential from the black ink.
> 
>  
> 
> There is no way to measure it, so it's an eyeball deal, and it 
took a lot of
> glop the worst places of the print.  The idea of a straight 10% 
curve did
> not work at with Ilford.
> 
>  
> 
> So, the question is what is it worth doing with?
> 
>  
> 
> One thought is that in the UT2 inkset, it might just replace the 
sepia in
> the Y position and then not have that much affect on the other 
curves.  If
> that is the case, having a UT2-Glop might make sense.  I'm not 
going to
> spend much time on the 1280.  So, if it could just be switched 
into the Y

> spot and the other curves worked, it might be an easy way to go.
> 
>  
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've obtained a 1270 where i plan to try this approach (right now i'm 
trying to get a clean nozzle check; I seem to be able to get all color 
clean OR all black)

I'm planning to use either epson or kirkland glossy to test, and I'm 
thinking of starting with paul's curves with the same image as the 
one printed, perhaps at 10% density (this would, i believe, have the 
advantage of not needing the black position, correct?). I assume the 
1270/1280 difference would be unimportant for GLOP. 

Before i move forward, I'd appreciate any suggestions. I plan to get 
some MIS empties and GLOP next week.

-matt
> 
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> I'm pleasantly surprised to see you're trying this-for one, I 
> wouldn't think you had the time.
> 
> I must say though, I think you're missing a point I perhaps didn't 
> make well enough during the earlier round on glop-coating, regarding 
> the position. Everyone is hell-bent on putting it in one of the 
> color channels-that may be fine for that particular machine, but 
> glop-coating a print made on another machine at another time HAS to 
> be easier if the glop is in the K channel. You can still control it 
> via a curve and intergrate it when printing on that machine, but 
> doing a separate pass as an overcoat is simpler this way. And the 
> dot size on a 7500 is the coarsest in the K channel. If you're going 
> to give one over to glop, this to me makes the most sense.
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > I have Glop working in the 1280 with the Epson driver.  I have an 
> Ilford
> > Galerie Smooth Pearl with and without glop for comparison.  Both 
> have about
> > the same general, overall golden sheen from a tungsten spot light, 
> but when
> > reflections form an overhead fluorescent light are seen on the 
> surface, the
> > glop makes a huge difference.  There is none what I consider the 
> irritating
> > differential, bronze reflection.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > The glop was in the Y position of a 1280 cart, with UT-FSN CMCM in 
> the
> > others.  The black was generated by the C + M, Eboni was in the K 
> spot.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Curves are needed to control the glop.  When the PK is in the K 
> spot the
> > glop seems to accentuate the gloss differential from the black ink.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > There is no way to measure it, so it's an eyeball deal, and it 
> took a lot of
> > glop the worst places of the print.  The idea of a straight 10% 
> curve did
> > not work at with Ilford.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > So, the question is what is it worth doing with?
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > One thought is that in the UT2 inkset, it might just replace the 
> sepia in
> > the Y position and then not have that much affect on the other 
> curves.  If
> > that is the case, having a UT2-Glop might make sense.  I'm not 
> going to
> > spend much time on the 1280.  So, if it could just be switched 
> into the Y
> > spot and the other curves worked, it might be an easy way to go.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Paul
> > 
> > www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
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--
Matt Haber
dance, portrait and fashion photography
http://www.matthaber.com

Steve,


>...
>glop-coating a print made on another machine at another time HAS to 
>be easier if the glop is in the K channel.

I'm aiming for matte and "glopped," bronze-free glossies from a single
machine without having to change any inks.

>... the dot size on a 7500 is the coarsest in the K channel. 

I'm not sure the 7500 is up to what I'm trying for now.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 





Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> I have Glop working in the 1280 with the Epson driver.  I have an 
Ilford
> Galerie Smooth Pearl with and without glop for comparison.  Both 
have about
> the same general, overall golden sheen from a tungsten spot light, 
but when
> reflections form an overhead fluorescent light are seen on the 
surface, the
> glop makes a huge difference.  There is none what I consider the 
irritating
> differential, bronze reflection.
> 
>  
> 
> The glop was in the Y position of a 1280 cart, with UT-FSN CMCM in 
the
> others.  The black was generated by the C + M, Eboni was in the K 
spot.
> 
>  
> 
> Curves are needed to control the glop.  When the PK is in the K 
spot the
> glop seems to accentuate the gloss differential from the black ink.
> 
>  
> 
> There is no way to measure it, so it's an eyeball deal, and it 
took a lot of
> glop the worst places of the print.  The idea of a straight 10% 
curve did
> not work at with Ilford.
> 
>  
> 
> So, the question is what is it worth doing with?
> 
>  
> 
> One thought is that in the UT2 inkset, it might just replace the 
sepia in
> the Y position and then not have that much affect on the other 
curves.  If
> that is the case, having a UT2-Glop might make sense.  I'm not 
going to
> spend much time on the 1280.  So, if it could just be switched 
into the Y
> spot and the other curves worked, it might be an easy way to go.
> 
>  
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
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ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> I'm pleasantly surprised to see you're trying this-for one, I 
> wouldn't think you had the time.
> 
> I must say though, I think you're missing a point I perhaps didn't 
> make well enough during the earlier round on glop-coating, regarding 
> the position. Everyone is hell-bent on putting it in one of the 
> color channels-that may be fine for that particular machine, but 
> glop-coating a print made on another machine at another time HAS to 
> be easier if the glop is in the K channel. You can still control it 
> via a curve and intergrate it when printing on that machine, but 
> doing a separate pass as an overcoat is simpler this way. And the 
> dot size on a 7500 is the coarsest in the K channel. If you're going 
> to give one over to glop, this to me makes the most sense.
 
Well, with glop in K on a 1280 with UT-7 you can use QTR and a K only curve to do pure glop in a second pass after drying the print, and still use the Epson driver and a Roark curve to do UT-7 if you don't want to use QTR for the printing in general (what the heck language am I writing this in anyway. I don't think I've ever put this many acronyms in one sentence before).

Although I think that UT7 and QTR for all permutations (regular B&W glopless printing, simultaneous glop, and overcoat glop). UT7 and Roark need K in K, and the only thing Y is good for is sepia. And all the QTR curves still work. 

Doesn't help me much, because I'm thinking of loading the 2200 up with UT (not UT-2 or UT-7) and that would best have glop in the LC position.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Steve,
> 
> 
> >...
> >glop-coating a print made on another machine at another time HAS 
to 
> >be easier if the glop is in the K channel.
> 
> I'm aiming for matte and "glopped," bronze-free glossies from a 
single
> machine without having to change any inks.
> 
> >... the dot size on a 7500 is the coarsest in the K channel. 
> 
> I'm not sure the 7500 is up to what I'm trying for now.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 


OK, I'll bite; which machine then? are you looking at the 7600? I 
assume you still want the wide fromat for your own work,yes?

Steve

> Doesn't help me much, because I'm thinking of loading the 2200 up 
>with UT (not UT-2 or UT-7) and that would best have glop in the LC 
>position.

Yeah, this is the real problem-too many of us need too many 
different things. I guess if you don't get your act together to 
figure out how to do what you need...well.. you take what comes down 
the pike. In whatever language.

Steve

It looks like this will be a winner. So far I've just been doing UT2, but I
suspect UT7 will react exactly the same way. 

Glop can simply replace the Y-position sepia, and, with a proper (& simple)
blue curve, essentially rid the glossy prints of bronzing.  All the other
curves and attributes of UT2 stay close to the same -- except the Sepia
curve prints very light.  ;-)

So, matte + bronze-less glossy UT2 printing from carbon to cool tones seems
to be here, with very little work.  

To modify the "glossy-eboni" curves, just print a test strip with the
existing curve.  Then pull the blue curve down in the areas of the bronzing
until the test strip gives an equal reflection.  Keep the curve going back
to the top (glop off) at the 100% black spot to avoid turning on the Eboni.
To make the blue-glop curve, you just use your eyes, no instruments that I
have help.

I'll be testing other papers to see how they look, but with Ilford, one of
the relatively bad bronzers, it does a very good job.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Same here. I've been following these glop discussion, but I'm 
confused about the significance of cart positioning. 

Is this an issue of which ink we can most easily do without
in order to swap for glop, or is there some difference 
in the capabilities (!) of the various print head positions? 
Or some subtlety about the order of ink lay-down?

david

--- "koloshor" <wiz@n...> wrote:

> 
> Doesn't help me much, because I'm thinking of loading the 2200 
> up with UT (not UT-2 or UT-7) and that would best have glop 
> in the LC position.

Glop is at the experimental stage.  

For the Epson driver and UT2/7, the Y position has always been a rather open
spot.  I originally needed sepia for some uses, so that is what ended up as
the default ink in there.  I've recommended light carbon in the Y position
for those who do not want sepia.  (You don't want a position that is not
used.)  Now, it looks like Glop might be a good thing for that spot if you
do glossies.  

So, Y is just a practical place for it in these setups -- if it works.  So
far, it looks like it'll do a reasonably good job in the 1280.  

Applying it in a second pass might be better for some uses, but I suspect
most would rather have the bronze taken care of in the original print.  The
"glopped" prints, at least when done in one pass, are not perfect yet.  I'd
call it a 90% solution, sort of like the sprays.  Additionally, the glop
does not protect the print the way a spray does, but is also is not the
smelly, toxic hassle sprays are.  

Overall, I think glop in the Y spot looks like a step forward for glossy
printing.  The fact that it might be very easy to implement is a very nice
additional benefit.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Wroblewski [mailto:dawroblewski@...] 
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 11:45 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Glop, 1280, Epson driver, and QTR ;)



Same here. I've been following these glop discussion, but I'm 
confused about the significance of cart positioning. 

Is this an issue of which ink we can most easily do without
in order to swap for glop, or is there some difference 
in the capabilities (!) of the various print head positions? 
Or some subtlety about the order of ink lay-down?

david

--- "koloshor" <wiz@n...> wrote:
> 
> Doesn't help me much, because I'm thinking of loading the 2200 
> up with UT (not UT-2 or UT-7) and that would best have glop 
> in the LC position.






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--- "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:

> ...(You don't want a position that is not used.)... 

Thanks for the clarification. Did you say this
because having an unused position will lead to 
ink settling/clogging? 

Makes me worry about the sepia position (unused in
practice) in my 2200/UT setup. Maybe it's not 
an issue with the 2200...?

david

David,

>> ...(You don't want a position that is not used.)... 

> Did you say this because having an unused position 
>will lead to ink settling/clogging? 

I think there is a risk of this.  There have been a couple of comments here
that the Y position of the UT2-1280 printer is clogged.

Note that if you print with the sliders, that position is used.

>Makes me worry about the sepia position (unused in
>practice) in my 2200/UT setup. Maybe it's not 
>an issue with the 2200...?

I think it is less of a risk with the 2200.  From what I can tell one of the
main differences between printers designed for pigments as opposed by dyes
is that the pigment printers do more routine cleaning cycles.  This might be
enough.  

Still, if you don't use sepia, I've been recommending people put a second
warm (carbon) light gray there -- the UT7 LC (or UT2 LM).  The main
noticeable change is that the prints with the sliders will be a bit more
neutral.  They will also be more lightfast.  The less color pigments in the
mix the better.

Now I'd be looking at Glop in the Y spot if you do glossy printing.  I have
not tested the 2200 with this ink arrangement, but it seems capable of
eliminating about 90% of the bronzing in the 1280 with appropriate curves.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I've been using the K slot in a 2200 for the glop simply because that 
is the only available position with the inks I'm currently using and 
the profiles do not require a black ink.  I am told that K is the first 
ink laid down and LK is the last with the 2200.  This means that with 
the profiles I've made (both with QTR and IJC) the glop is going down 
first with my inkset configuration.  Even though the glop is being 
applied first (at least I assume it is), the 4-10% glop I'm applying is 
more than adequate for 100% elimination of bronzing on Kirkland Glossy 
and Ilford Smooth Pearl.  There is some slight reduction in gloss on 
both of these papers but the appearance of the prints is quite nice - 
like an air dried silver glossy - with a soft gloss finish.  
Application by overcoating previously made prints using a black only 
glop application method with the Epson driver lays down a lot more glop 
and produces a higher gloss finish.  I've also found that it takes much 
less glop to eliminate bronzing with MIS UT class inks than with the 
Epson UC inks.  I'm going to re-configure my 2200 for a modification of 
the UT7 inks that incorporates glop in the LK slot so I'll be able to 
compare how a different ink position affects the glop application.

Carl

On Jan 17, 2005, at 11:14 AM, Paul Roark wrote:

>
> David,
>
>>> ...(You don't want a position that is not used.)...
>
>> Did you say this because having an unused position
>> will lead to ink settling/clogging?
>
> I think there is a risk of this.  There have been a couple of comments 
> here
> that the Y position of the UT2-1280 printer is clogged.
>
> Note that if you print with the sliders, that position is used.
>
>> Makes me worry about the sepia position (unused in
>> practice) in my 2200/UT setup. Maybe it's not
>> an issue with the 2200...?
>
> I think it is less of a risk with the 2200.  From what I can tell one 
> of the
> main differences between printers designed for pigments as opposed by 
> dyes
> is that the pigment printers do more routine cleaning cycles.  This 
> might be
> enough.
>
> Still, if you don't use sepia, I've been recommending people put a 
> second
> warm (carbon) light gray there -- the UT7 LC (or UT2 LM).  The main
> noticeable change is that the prints with the sliders will be a bit 
> more
> neutral.  They will also be more lightfast.  The less color pigments 
> in the
> mix the better.
>
> Now I'd be looking at Glop in the Y spot if you do glossy printing.  I 
> have
> not tested the 2200 with this ink arrangement, but it seems capable of
> eliminating about 90% of the bronzing in the 1280 with appropriate 
> curves.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
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My bottles of the old style MIS FS inks are running out on my 1160.

I am becoming intrigued by the idea of replacing them with a tri-tone 
inkset and GLOP.

Paul, or anyone else, would you have a suggestion as to which inks I 
might load so that I can print with a black and two grey inks? The idea 
is that I would be able to print on matte paper as well as glossy using 
the GLOP. I know I may be sacrificing a little dottiness in the 
highlights with the 3 ink approach, but I think I may still be happy 
with it.

I'll make my own QTR curves so it doesn't have to be a "standard" 
combination of inks. I do like the color of the original FS inkset.

-bruce

Bruce,

>My bottles of the old style MIS FS inks are running out on my 1160.

>I am becoming intrigued by the idea of replacing them with a 
>tri-tone inkset and GLOP.

>Paul, or anyone else, would you have a suggestion as to which inks I 
>might load so that I can print with a black and two grey inks? The idea 
>is that I would be able to print on matte paper as well as glossy using 
>the GLOP. I know I may be sacrificing a little dottiness in the 
>highlights with the 3 ink approach, but I think I may still be happy 
>with it.

>I'll make my own QTR curves so it doesn't have to be a "standard" 
>combination of inks. I do like the color of the original FS inkset.

You might consider the UT-FSN-C and UT-FSN-M.  The 1160 has a modern
variable dot on the color jets.  So, you don't need the FSN-Y anyway.  The
Glop could then go in that spot.  The UT-FSN-C can generate a reasonably
good dmax on glossy paper.

Let us know how it works if you go this way.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
 
> Still, if you don't use sepia, I've been recommending people put a second
> warm (carbon) light gray there -- the UT7 LC (or UT2 LM).  The main
> noticeable change is that the prints with the sliders will be a bit more
> neutral.  They will also be more lightfast.  The less color pigments in the
> mix the better.

How about another full strength black? I do some stuff with uncoated watercolor papers, and my arches cold-press QTR curves are firing 100% black, 100% light black, 100% magenta, 100% cyan, and 50% yellow (yes, that's 450%) for max density. Two blacks would probably let me get down to 300% ink.

With my 2100 UT-FSN-C only yields a dMax of 1.67 on EPSG, whereas MIS PK
gets me to 2.0 (using QTR and no overlaps and 90% ink limit - I find QTR's
dither breaks down at 100% and there is little dMax diff between 95 and 90%
ink limits).

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:46:17 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Glop, 1280, Epson driver, and QTR ;)
> 
> 
> Bruce,
> 
>> My bottles of the old style MIS FS inks are running out on my 1160.
> 
>> I am becoming intrigued by the idea of replacing them with a
>> tri-tone inkset and GLOP.
> 
>> Paul, or anyone else, would you have a suggestion as to which inks I
>> might load so that I can print with a black and two grey inks? The idea
>> is that I would be able to print on matte paper as well as glossy using
>> the GLOP. I know I may be sacrificing a little dottiness in the
>> highlights with the 3 ink approach, but I think I may still be happy
>> with it.
> 
>> I'll make my own QTR curves so it doesn't have to be a "standard"
>> combination of inks. I do like the color of the original FS inkset.
> 
> You might consider the UT-FSN-C and UT-FSN-M.  The 1160 has a modern
> variable dot on the color jets.  So, you don't need the FSN-Y anyway.  The
> Glop could then go in that spot.  The UT-FSN-C can generate a reasonably
> good dmax on glossy paper.
> 
> Let us know how it works if you go this way.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com