Digital BW, The Print

I haven't posted a message in a long while, several months, but I've 
been wanting to post my findings as to various degrees of warm vs. 
neutral prints by mixing the warm and neutral cartridges (carts) on 
my Epson C84.  Maybe someone has already posted this info but I 
haven't seen it and maybe this will be helpful to others using the 
EZ B&W inks, which are absolutely great.  The C84 & C86 are only 
fair when printing color as compared to Epsons photo grade printers, 
but are wonderful for B&W with the EZ ink sets.

Before giving you the particulars below here is my results rating 
from neutral to the warmest prints.
CW = Cyan warm cart; MN = Magenta neutral cart and so on...  There 
are only 8 different combinations of the warm and neutral carts.

1. CN-MN-YN  the most neutral print
2. CN-MN-YW  a little warmer
3. CW-MN-YN
4. CN-MW-YN
5. CW-MN-YW
6. CW-MW-YN
7. CN-MW-YW
8. CW-MW-YW  obviously the warmest

I found very little difference between combinations 3&4, and also 
between 6&7 and with further testing might flip-flop.  There was a 
more decernable difference between the other steps.

This is how I performed the test and other useful info:  I have the 
neutral set of carts (cartridges) and a warm set of carts.  Both 
sets are used with the Eboni black since the shades between warm and 
neutral is determined in the midtones and highlights.  One thing 
everyone should know if you don't already is that the ink in the 
cyan (C), magenta (M), and the yellow (Y) in both the warm carts and 
the neutral carts is exactly the same ink.  In other words when 
refilling the warm and neutral carts all you need is one bottle of 
the warm and one bottle of the neutral for each of the C,M, and Y 
carts.  I comfirmed this with MIS and Paul Roark.  I used a Epson 
C84 printer with Epson Heavyweight Matte Paper, which has optical 
brightners (OB).  I find that in general papers with OB's print 
colder or more neutral and those without OB's tend to print warmer.
The rating from the most neutral to warmest was by sight and 
therefore somewhat subjective, but isn't that the way it is with 
everything about B&W prints.

Hope this is helpful,
Randy

"One thing
everyone should know if you don't already is that the ink in the
cyan (C), magenta (M), and the yellow (Y) in both the warm carts and
the neutral carts is exactly the same ink. In other words when
refilling the warm and neutral carts all you need is one bottle of
the warm and one bottle of the neutral for each of the C,M, and Y
carts. I comfirmed this with MIS and Paul Roark. "



That's great news since you only need to buy 2 bottles of ink.

But what puzzles me is, how do you get all of those "shades" with 
just two inks?

The HP 59 carts have 3 "shades" of grey. You would think those prints 
would look better than the MIS, but I like the MIS EZ better.

That's for your up-date.

Scott

The various shades refered to are shades of color between the
neutral and warm ink sets and not shades of gray as referenced below
by HP's photo B&W ink set. The various shades of color is due to
varying the amounts between the warm and neutral inks by varying the
combinations of the warm to neutral carts. See original post!
Randy


--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> 
> "One thing
> everyone should know if you don't already is that the ink in the
> cyan (C), magenta (M), and the yellow (Y) in both the warm carts 
and
> the neutral carts is exactly the same ink. In other words when
> refilling the warm and neutral carts all you need is one bottle of
> the warm and one bottle of the neutral for each of the C,M, and Y
> carts. I comfirmed this with MIS and Paul Roark. "
> 
> 
> 
> That's great news since you only need to buy 2 bottles of ink.
> 
> But what puzzles me is, how do you get all of those "shades" with 
> just two inks?
> 
> The HP 59 carts have 3 "shades" of grey. You would think those 
prints 

> would look better than the MIS, but I like the MIS EZ better.
> 
> That's for your up-date.
> 
> Scott

O.K, Randy, I mis-spoke.

I meant "density" instead of shades.

How do you get all those densties with only 2 densities of ink.

One bottle to fill the C, Y, And M positions and one bottle of black 
to fill the black position.

2 inks. I just don't get it.

Scott



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Rancier" 
<randy_rancier2004@y...> wrote:

> 
> The various shades refered to are shades of color between the
> neutral and warm ink sets and not shades of gray as referenced below
> by HP's photo B&W ink set. The various shades of color is due to
> varying the amounts between the warm and neutral inks by varying the
> combinations of the warm to neutral carts. See original post!
> Randy
> 
> 
> --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
> <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > "One thing
> > everyone should know if you don't already is that the ink in the
> > cyan (C), magenta (M), and the yellow (Y) in both the warm carts 
> and
> > the neutral carts is exactly the same ink. In other words when
> > refilling the warm and neutral carts all you need is one bottle of
> > the warm and one bottle of the neutral for each of the C,M, and Y
> > carts. I comfirmed this with MIS and Paul Roark. "
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > That's great news since you only need to buy 2 bottles of ink.
> > 
> > But what puzzles me is, how do you get all of those "shades" with 
> > just two inks?
> > 
> > The HP 59 carts have 3 "shades" of grey. You would think those 
> prints 
> > would look better than the MIS, but I like the MIS EZ better.
> > 
> > That's for your up-date.
> > 
> > Scott

Upthread to see original post:

Scott,  I'm not sure how the mechanics of gray densities and 
how "smooth" they appear and is really beyond the scope of my 
original post as it relates to differences in warm and 
neutral "tones" rather than "shades" of gray.  The shades of gray 
question would probably be a question for Paul Roark.

Cheers,
Randy

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> O.K, Randy, I mis-spoke.
> 
> I meant "density" instead of shades.
> 
> How do you get all those densties with only 2 densities of ink.
> 
> One bottle to fill the C, Y, And M positions and one bottle of 
black 
> to fill the black position.
> 
> 2 inks. I just don't get it.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Randy 
Rancier" 
> <randy_rancier2004@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > The various shades refered to are shades of color between the
> > neutral and warm ink sets and not shades of gray as referenced 
below
> > by HP's photo B&W ink set. The various shades of color is due to
> > varying the amounts between the warm and neutral inks by varying 
the
> > combinations of the warm to neutral carts. See original post!
> > Randy
> > 
> > 
> > --- In 
> > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
> > <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > "One thing
> > > everyone should know if you don't already is that the ink in 
the
> > > cyan (C), magenta (M), and the yellow (Y) in both the warm 
carts 
> > and
> > > the neutral carts is exactly the same ink. In other words when
> > > refilling the warm and neutral carts all you need is one 
bottle of
> > > the warm and one bottle of the neutral for each of the C,M, 
and Y
> > > carts. I comfirmed this with MIS and Paul Roark. "
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > That's great news since you only need to buy 2 bottles of ink.
> > > 
> > > But what puzzles me is, how do you get all of those "shades" 
with 

> > > just two inks?
> > > 
> > > The HP 59 carts have 3 "shades" of grey. You would think those 
> > prints 
> > > would look better than the MIS, but I like the MIS EZ better.
> > > 
> > > That's for your up-date.
> > > 
> > > Scott

>... 
> How do you get all those densties with only 2 densities of ink.
> 
> One bottle to fill the C, Y, And M positions and 
>one bottle of black to fill the black position.
> 
> 2 inks. I just don't get it.

The dot size and very high resolution of the C86 allow it.  Recall that the
R800 no longer uses light inks either.  The light inks were only needed
where the dots were too big and the resolution too low.  As technology
advances, the light inks will disappear.  I will not miss them.  Among other
things they flood glossy paper and end up being worse than a more dense ink.
I call them expensive water.

Also, think of how you'd get the lightest individual dots if you were going
to have 3 jets firing.  You'd want 3 identical densities so that each one
could be as light as possible.

It works, and the C86 and R800 technology are probably where we're going in
the near future.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks for the verification that the inks in the C/M/Y positions are 
identical.  I've read this in previous threads.

For kicks, I posted this question to tech support at MIS, mentioning 
that I had heard that the inks were identical yet was confused about 
them selling the C/M/Y ultratone refills as separate items.  Here's 
their response: "...also you can order by individual color but all 
the colors have a different mix so you will have to purchase by color 
and not mix it."  The subject line of the post indicated Ultratone & 
C86 too.  Go figure.

Anyway, I think I'm going to take the plunge and order some empties 
and some ink, along with the refill kit 
(http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/vacfill.html)


thanks again.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >... 
> > How do you get all those densties with only 2 densities of ink.
> > 
> > One bottle to fill the C, Y, And M positions and 
> >one bottle of black to fill the black position.
> > 
> > 2 inks. I just don't get it.
> 
> The dot size and very high resolution of the C86 allow it.  Recall 
that the
> R800 no longer uses light inks either.  The light inks were only 
needed
> where the dots were too big and the resolution too low.  As 
technology
> advances, the light inks will disappear.  I will not miss them.  
Among other
> things they flood glossy paper and end up being worse than a more 
dense ink.
> I call them expensive water.
> 
> Also, think of how you'd get the lightest individual dots if you 
were going
> to have 3 jets firing.  You'd want 3 identical densities so that 
each one
> could be as light as possible.
> 
> It works, and the C86 and R800 technology are probably where we're 
going in

> the near future.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks for posting this.

It is really helpful to me.

I was using PK and all "N" inks and felt is was a little on the cool 
side. Pk and all "W" was too warm, especially with high key images.

I'm now using PK, N,N,W with Kirkland (Epson C86 printer,of course!) 
and the prints look really neutral to me.

I've bookmarked this post for future reference.

Thanks again,

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Rancier" 
<randy_rancier2004@y...> wrote:
> 
> I haven't posted a message in a long while, several months, but 
I've 
> been wanting to post my findings as to various degrees of warm vs. 
> neutral prints by mixing the warm and neutral cartridges (carts) on 
> my Epson C84.  Maybe someone has already posted this info but I 
> haven't seen it and maybe this will be helpful to others using the 
> EZ B&W inks, which are absolutely great.  The C84 & C86 are only 
> fair when printing color as compared to Epsons photo grade 
printers, 
> but are wonderful for B&W with the EZ ink sets.
> 
> Before giving you the particulars below here is my results rating 
> from neutral to the warmest prints.
> CW = Cyan warm cart; MN = Magenta neutral cart and so on...  There 
> are only 8 different combinations of the warm and neutral carts.
> 
> 1. CN-MN-YN  the most neutral print
> 2. CN-MN-YW  a little warmer
> 3. CW-MN-YN
> 4. CN-MW-YN
> 5. CW-MN-YW
> 6. CW-MW-YN
> 7. CN-MW-YW
> 8. CW-MW-YW  obviously the warmest
> 
> I found very little difference between combinations 3&4, and also 
> between 6&7 and with further testing might flip-flop.  There was a 
> more decernable difference between the other steps.
> 
> This is how I performed the test and other useful info:  I have the 
> neutral set of carts (cartridges) and a warm set of carts.  Both 
> sets are used with the Eboni black since the shades between warm 
and 
> neutral is determined in the midtones and highlights.  One thing 
> everyone should know if you don't already is that the ink in the 
> cyan (C), magenta (M), and the yellow (Y) in both the warm carts 
and 

> the neutral carts is exactly the same ink.  In other words when 
> refilling the warm and neutral carts all you need is one bottle of 
> the warm and one bottle of the neutral for each of the C,M, and Y 
> carts.  I comfirmed this with MIS and Paul Roark.  I used a Epson 
> C84 printer with Epson Heavyweight Matte Paper, which has optical 
> brightners (OB).  I find that in general papers with OB's print 
> colder or more neutral and those without OB's tend to print warmer.
> The rating from the most neutral to warmest was by sight and 
> therefore somewhat subjective, but isn't that the way it is with 
> everything about B&W prints.
> 
> Hope this is helpful,
> Randy

Your welcome, I'm glad you found this helpful.

I suppose if you wanted a tone in between what you can achive using 
this method I suppose one could mix the warm and neutral inks at 
various ratios in one or two of the carts.
Happy experimenting.
Randy

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting this.
> 
> It is really helpful to me.
> 
> I was using PK and all "N" inks and felt is was a little on the 
cool 
> side. Pk and all "W" was too warm, especially with high key images.
> 
> I'm now using PK, N,N,W with Kirkland (Epson C86 printer,of 
course!) 
> and the prints look really neutral to me.
> 
> I've bookmarked this post for future reference.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Scott
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Randy 
Rancier" 
> <randy_rancier2004@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > I haven't posted a message in a long while, several months, but 
> I've 
> > been wanting to post my findings as to various degrees of warm 
vs. 
> > neutral prints by mixing the warm and neutral cartridges (carts) 
on 
> > my Epson C84.  Maybe someone has already posted this info but I 
> > haven't seen it and maybe this will be helpful to others using 
the 
> > EZ B&W inks, which are absolutely great.  The C84 & C86 are only 
> > fair when printing color as compared to Epsons photo grade 
> printers, 
> > but are wonderful for B&W with the EZ ink sets.
> > 
> > Before giving you the particulars below here is my results 
rating 
> > from neutral to the warmest prints.
> > CW = Cyan warm cart; MN = Magenta neutral cart and so on...  
There 
> > are only 8 different combinations of the warm and neutral carts.
> > 
> > 1. CN-MN-YN  the most neutral print
> > 2. CN-MN-YW  a little warmer
> > 3. CW-MN-YN
> > 4. CN-MW-YN
> > 5. CW-MN-YW
> > 6. CW-MW-YN
> > 7. CN-MW-YW
> > 8. CW-MW-YW  obviously the warmest
> > 
> > I found very little difference between combinations 3&4, and 
also 
> > between 6&7 and with further testing might flip-flop.  There was 
a 
> > more decernable difference between the other steps.
> > 
> > This is how I performed the test and other useful info:  I have 
the 
> > neutral set of carts (cartridges) and a warm set of carts.  Both 
> > sets are used with the Eboni black since the shades between warm 
> and 
> > neutral is determined in the midtones and highlights.  One thing 
> > everyone should know if you don't already is that the ink in the 
> > cyan (C), magenta (M), and the yellow (Y) in both the warm carts 
> and 
> > the neutral carts is exactly the same ink.  In other words when 
> > refilling the warm and neutral carts all you need is one bottle 
of 
> > the warm and one bottle of the neutral for each of the C,M, and 
Y 
> > carts.  I comfirmed this with MIS and Paul Roark.  I used a 
Epson 
> > C84 printer with Epson Heavyweight Matte Paper, which has 
optical 
> > brightners (OB).  I find that in general papers with OB's print 
> > colder or more neutral and those without OB's tend to print 
warmer.

> > The rating from the most neutral to warmest was by sight and 
> > therefore somewhat subjective, but isn't that the way it is with 
> > everything about B&W prints.
> > 
> > Hope this is helpful,
> > Randy