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Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

2004-09-16 by Maris V. Lidaka Sr.

What platform and what printer and ink and paper are you using or want to
use?

Do you print for yourself or for sale?  What quantity?

We need some more detailed info to be responsive.

Maris

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: jayglad
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 6:12 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

I've researched myself into a corner. I've read about Piezography,
MIS, Quad Tone RIP, Black Only printing and now I'm really confused
as to which way to go.

K.I.S.S. was created for me. I'm not all that stupid, but I like to
keep things "simple." I'm not too technical. On the other hand, I'd
like to obtain the best looking print I can. I know, it's hard to
have both. At any rate, my priorities are:

1. Image quality
2. Simplicity of workflow
3. Longevity
4. Cost
(Have I overlooked anything?)

Some of these systems appear to be very complicated, more so than
wet darkroom printing ever was. So if any of you have a suggestions
and/or opinions on this, I'd love to hear them.! Terms of Service.

Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

2004-09-16 by B. Campbell

Obviously you're going to get many different suggestions, you'll just have
to pick the one that seems best to you. But just so the message below
doesn't put you off of black only entirely, I've had none of the problems
mentioned in that message when I've used black only with the Epson 2200
printer and MIS Eboni black ink. The prints look, to my eyes at least, very
good and are more consistently neutral than the prints I get using MIS VM
inks in my Epson 1280 printer. While I wouldn't tell you that black only is
the best way to go, it is an easy, inexpensive way. Even if you don't like
the results, all you've spent on it is about $10 for the Eboni cartridge and
a few minutes of time.

Show quoted textHide quoted text

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Douglas Meeuwsen" <lipshurt@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

well, I give my vote to mis UT ink using the driver/sliders method.
Super easy, and look real good, work on lots of papers. Just have to
dial them in on your papers, which is pretty easy by trial and error.
Looks better than black-only, which was not really that simple when I
tried it. Black-only has problems with dither banding on certain dark
areas which can ruin a print. quadtone rip seemed to work exactly as
well as the sliders method, only 4 times slower. Paul roarks curves
method is cool too for more control, but for me, the sliders give
plenty of control.
On Sep 15, 2004, at 4:12 PM, jayglad wrote:

> At any rate, my priorities are:
>
>  1. Image quality
>  2. Simplicity of workflow
>  3. Longevity
>  4. Cost
>  (Have I overlooked anything?)
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

2004-09-16 by Richard Sintchak

My advice would be the same as B. Campbell.  If Super A3 is big enough
then get a 2200 and an MIS Eboni black cart and give the BO workflow a
go.  Looks really good (some even say better than some other
"smoother" workflows) and if you decide not you can still pursue other
options and little has been spent either time or money-wise.  Do not
get caught up in "theory" of which is best and it seems some are not
focusing on what you are asking for:  Although Image Quality is your
number one consideration (for who is image quality not?) it's quite
subjective.  That's for you to decide.  Key in your request are
simplicity and cost.  BO is the king for those (yes, a CFS is cheaper
in the long run, but sends the Simplicity aspect out the window).  And
it has Longevity as well (with the right papers, like any workflow). 
Take it from one who has been through the route of MIS Full Specturm
inks, Randall Curves, CFS systems, Cone drivers, etc. No matter what
everyone says the more complex workflows rarely go easily and smoothly
at first and there is often a tedious learning/testing curve.  Once
you've got it, yes, you're set.  But oh the bother.  And the paper. 
And the ink.  But some are into testing and the puzzle of it all.  I
got good results from my 1160 and using the various workflows of
Randall curves, Cone drivers, etc.  And for a time enjoyed testing and
tweaking, etc.  But it was too inconsistent in the end.  Now I'm a BO
die-hard but am also immensely enjoying the new Windows QTR as well. 
Both could not be simpler!

Richard

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----- Original Message -----
From: B. Campbell <bellis60@...>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:43:21 -0400
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?
To: digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com

Obviously you're going to get many different suggestions, you'll just have
to pick the one that seems best to you. But just so the message below
doesn't put you off of black only entirely, I've had none of the problems
mentioned in that message when I've used black only with the Epson 2200
printer and MIS Eboni black ink. The prints look, to my eyes at least, very
good and are more consistently neutral than the prints I get using MIS VM
inks in my Epson 1280 printer. While I wouldn't tell you that black only is
the best way to go, it is an easy, inexpensive way. Even if you don't like
the results, all you've spent on it is about $10 for the Eboni cartridge and
a few minutes of time.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Douglas Meeuwsen" <lipshurt@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

well, I give my vote to mis UT ink using the driver/sliders method.
Super easy, and look real good, work on lots of papers. Just have to
dial them in on your papers, which is pretty easy by trial and error.
Looks better than black-only, which was not really that simple when I
tried it. Black-only has problems with dither banding on certain dark
areas which can ruin a print. quadtone rip seemed to work exactly as
well as the sliders method, only 4 times slower. Paul roarks curves
method is cool too for more control, but for me, the sliders give
plenty of control.
On Sep 15, 2004, at 4:12 PM, jayglad wrote:

> At any rate, my priorities are:
>
>  1. Image quality
>  2. Simplicity of workflow
>  3. Longevity
>  4. Cost
>  (Have I overlooked anything?)
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
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- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
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Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the
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YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
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PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

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Re: Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

2004-09-16 by Clayton Jones

>>...black-only, which was not really that simple when I tried it.
>>Black-only has problems with dither banding on certain dark
>>areas which can ruin a print. 

>But just so the message below doesn't put you off of black only
>entirely, I've had none of the problems mentioned in that 
>message when I've used black only with the Epson 2200
>printer and MIS Eboni black ink. The prints look, to my eyes 
>at least, very good and are more consistently neutral than 
>the prints I get using MIS VM inks in my Epson 1280 printer. 
>While I wouldn't tell you that black only is the best way to go, 
>it is an easy, inexpensive way. Even if you don't like
>the results, all you've spent on it is about $10 for the Eboni
>cartridge and a few minutes of time.

I agree completely.  BO is a great way to get started because it's
inexpensive, doesn't prevent you from trying other systems, and is as
easy as it gets (no RGB curves, paper profiles, etc).  As for it being
"not really that simple", all I can say is no system is totally
brainless if you want really good results.

As for dither banding, that is largely a matter of good head alignment
and other mysterious printer issues and all systems are prone to it. 
I have seen gorgeous BO prints without any of it, and have seen prints
from all the other systems (QTR, IP, Piezo, Septone, UC, VM, UT, UT2,
UT7, etc) with bad cases of it (and everything in between).  So I
believe it is incorrect to brand any system as being more prone to it
than others.  

At the current state of the art (assuming good results are desired),
BW digi printing takes hard work, a modicum of intelligence, patience
and perseverence - no matter what system is used.  For a beginner
there is a HUGE amount of material to absorb, not only the printer
system, inks and papers, but using Photoshop as well.  Some people are
technically inclined and like to tweak and tinker, some are barely
computer literate.  I recommend BO for beginners because it is the
cheapest, quickest, easiest and least intimidating way to get started,
produces beautiful luminous prints with intense Dmax, and still allows
color printing.   Everything learned while using it will be helpful
if/when the user decides to try other systems.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

2004-09-17 by Bob Michaels

I told myself that I wasn't going to get into yet another "which is
best" discussion, but here I am. 

I have over 100 digital b&w prints from various exchanges and friends.
I see very good prints using many different methods and different
printers. It depends on what's important to you. I've tried several
methods myself, currently very happy with Black Only. 

I think Richard Sintchak's comment (below) is about the best objective
summation. Also see Clayton Jones' website. 

You'll find your experience level is a much greater factor than your
choice of hardware, ink or paper. So just buy something and start
printing. Eventually if it doesn't seem to be what you want, try
something else. Just give it a try. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard Sintchak
<rich815@g...> wrote:
> My advice would be the same as B. Campbell.  If Super A3 is big enough
> then get a 2200 and an MIS Eboni black cart and give the BO workflow a
> go.  Looks really good (some even say better than some other
> "smoother" workflows) and if you decide not you can still pursue other
> options and little has been spent either time or money-wise.  Do not
> get caught up in "theory" of which is best and it seems some are not
> focusing on what you are asking for:  Although Image Quality is your
> number one consideration (for who is image quality not?) it's quite
> subjective.  That's for you to decide.  Key in your request are
> simplicity and cost.  BO is the king for those (yes, a CFS is cheaper
> in the long run, but sends the Simplicity aspect out the window).  And
> it has Longevity as well (with the right papers, like any workflow). 
> Take it from one who has been through the route of MIS Full Specturm
> inks, Randall Curves, CFS systems, Cone drivers, etc. No matter what
> everyone says the more complex workflows rarely go easily and smoothly
> at first and there is often a tedious learning/testing curve.  Once
> you've got it, yes, you're set.  But oh the bother.  And the paper. 
> And the ink.  But some are into testing and the puzzle of it all.  I
> got good results from my 1160 and using the various workflows of
> Randall curves, Cone drivers, etc.  And for a time enjoyed testing and
> tweaking, etc.  But it was too inconsistent in the end.  Now I'm a BO
> die-hard but am also immensely enjoying the new Windows QTR as well. 
> Both could not be simpler!
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: B. Campbell <bellis60@v...>
> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:43:21 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?
> To: digitalblackandwhitetheprint@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Obviously you're going to get many different suggestions, you'll
just have
> to pick the one that seems best to you. But just so the message below
> doesn't put you off of black only entirely, I've had none of the
problems
> mentioned in that message when I've used black only with the Epson 2200
> printer and MIS Eboni black ink. The prints look, to my eyes at
least, very
> good and are more consistently neutral than the prints I get using
MIS VM
> inks in my Epson 1280 printer. While I wouldn't tell you that black
only is
> the best way to go, it is an easy, inexpensive way. Even if you
don't like
> the results, all you've spent on it is about $10 for the Eboni
cartridge and
> a few minutes of time.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Douglas Meeuwsen" <lipshurt@m...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 10:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?
> 
> 
> 
> well, I give my vote to mis UT ink using the driver/sliders method.
> Super easy, and look real good, work on lots of papers. Just have to
> dial them in on your papers, which is pretty easy by trial and error.
> Looks better than black-only, which was not really that simple when I
> tried it. Black-only has problems with dither banding on certain dark
> areas which can ruin a print. quadtone rip seemed to work exactly as
> well as the sliders method, only 4 times slower. Paul roarks curves
> method is cool too for more control, but for me, the sliders give
> plenty of control.
> On Sep 15, 2004, at 4:12 PM, jayglad wrote:
> 
> > At any rate, my priorities are:
> >
> >  1. Image quality
> >  2. Simplicity of workflow
> >  3. Longevity
> >  4. Cost
> >  (Have I overlooked anything?)
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED
OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE
INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED
ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
CONDUCT OF ANY

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
> Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER"
> AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

2004-09-17 by Tom Baker

I second Bob's comment.  The most important thing in all of this is to print.  Start cheap is needed.  But print.  Black only is inexpensive to start.  Print with it.  If it doesn't suit you tastes, go to something else.  But, you will have learned much in the process.  You'll be developing your skill and talent.  That's a large part of the fun of this.
 
Tom Baker




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Digital BW, The Print

Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

Re: Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

Re: [Digital BW] Digital B&W Printing--Which method?

Move to quarantaine