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CIS with 1160

CIS with 1160

2004-04-16 by byushooter

This is a copy of an email I sent to IJM last Monday.  I still 
haven't gotten a response from them and am wondering if anyone here 
can help me?  Please?!

"I am installing two CIS units using Piezotone inks on Epson 
1160's.  I installed the first CIS without difficulty and other than 
banding, it works correctly.  However, I attempted to install the 
second CIS and am having difficulty.  The tubing from the CIS seemed 
to be too short.  If the print head went all the way to the left, 
the line was pulled taut.  I moved the velcro part over and it was 
then too short to go all the way to the right.  In order to do 
further adjustment, I removed the cartridges from the printer.  The 
ink from two of the lines (the black cart and one of the color 
lines) flowed back into the bottles and the lines are now filled 
with air.  I have tried printing the flush image file twice but the 
ink in those two lines has not moved.  And the ink that does make it 
to the paper has a very heavy flow, puddling on the paper.

Is there a way to renew the vacuum and fill those two lines?  If 
not, how do I fill them with ink?  What is causing the puddling?"

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

Re: CIS with 1160

2004-04-16 by Andre

You need to do a re-install with freshly cleaned tube lines. Put the 
lines and arm in a sink full of water and blow/siphon to clear the 
ink. Do not re-install untill you have ascertained that the tube 
lines have fully dried. (very important)

For a clean re-install print this pdf from injketmall. It works for 
the Epson 1160 and Epson 1200.

http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/info/pdf/CIS740-1200.pdf

Cheers,
Andre


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" 
<jellerbe@j...> wrote:
> This is a copy of an email I sent to IJM last Monday.  I still 
> haven't gotten a response from them and am wondering if anyone here 
> can help me?  Please?!
> 
> "I am installing two CIS units using Piezotone inks on Epson 
> 1160's.  I installed the first CIS without difficulty and other 
than 
> banding, it works correctly.  However, I attempted to install the 
> second CIS and am having difficulty.  The tubing from the CIS 
seemed 
> to be too short.  If the print head went all the way to the left, 
> the line was pulled taut.  I moved the velcro part over and it was 
> then too short to go all the way to the right.  In order to do 
> further adjustment, I removed the cartridges from the printer.  The 
> ink from two of the lines (the black cart and one of the color 
> lines) flowed back into the bottles and the lines are now filled 
> with air.  I have tried printing the flush image file twice but the 
> ink in those two lines has not moved.  And the ink that does make 
it 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> to the paper has a very heavy flow, puddling on the paper.
> 
> Is there a way to renew the vacuum and fill those two lines?  If 
> not, how do I fill them with ink?  What is causing the puddling?"
> 
> Thanks for any advice you can offer.

Re: CIS with 1160

2004-04-17 by byushooter

Thanks Andre for the quick reply.  Since the cartridges were 
installed and the bottom seal pierced, can I reuse them?  Can I just 
tape over the bottom of them or something so that I can create a 
vacuum with the syringe?

Thanks,

Jenny

Re: CIS with 1160

2004-04-17 by Andre

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" 
<jellerbe@j...> wrote:
> Thanks Andre for the quick reply.  Since the cartridges were 
> installed and the bottom seal pierced, can I reuse them?  Can I 
just 
> tape over the bottom of them or something so that I can create a 
> vacuum with the syringe?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jenny

I'm afraid you may need a fresh set of cartridges because you need to 
put a vacuum in them so that they draw the ink from the bottles 
through the tubes lines. And when you draw air from those filled 
cartridges for said vacuum, you'll have ink overflowing into your 
siphon! Also, I dont know if the tape of the bottom would hold when 
you start that vacuum. I fail to see how it could be done otherwise, 
but you never know, maybe someone will explain how to do it.

Read the pdf carefully and make sure you understand the entire 
procedure before you start and take your time.

Cheers,
Andre

Re: CIS with 1160

2004-04-17 by Bob Michaels

You can bottom fill 1280 CFS cartridges very easily. I don't know
about 1160 carts though. The bottom fill seems to work just as well,
maybe better. Just make sure you suck all the foam out. No small task
as it seems it will never end. 

If you don't know how much ink to put in the cart, and it's not on Jon
Cone's site, go to the MIS site. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andre"
<am1000@v...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" 
> <jellerbe@j...> wrote:
> > Thanks Andre for the quick reply.  Since the cartridges were 
> > installed and the bottom seal pierced, can I reuse them?  Can I 
> just 
> > tape over the bottom of them or something so that I can create a 
> > vacuum with the syringe?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Jenny
> 
> I'm afraid you may need a fresh set of cartridges because you need to 
> put a vacuum in them so that they draw the ink from the bottles 
> through the tubes lines. And when you draw air from those filled 
> cartridges for said vacuum, you'll have ink overflowing into your 
> siphon! Also, I dont know if the tape of the bottom would hold when 
> you start that vacuum. I fail to see how it could be done otherwise, 
> but you never know, maybe someone will explain how to do it.
> 
> Read the pdf carefully and make sure you understand the entire 
> procedure before you start and take your time.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andre

Re: CIS with 1160

2004-04-17 by Mark Hahn

as long as your seals are good all you have to do is get the carts 
and tubes full of ink.  The easiest way to do this is just to use a 
syringe to pull ink up the tubes and then into the carts.  Then when 
everything is filled up you have to pump enough air back into the 
cart to make it roughly half full (you need the air space otherwise 
you'll get sputtering).  Install the cart and it will work.  I've 
done this numerous times with my CFS system on the 1160.  

mark 

...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Is there a way to renew the vacuum and fill those two lines?  If 
> not, how do I fill them with ink?  What is causing the puddling?"
> 
> Thanks for any advice you can offer.

Re: CIS with 1160

2004-04-17 by richard_h95050

Bob's suggestion is correct -- you can bottom fill the cartridges on 
an 1160 quite easily. However, you do need to have a 30-60cc syringe 
and bottom-fill adapter for this method, rather than the vacuum pump 
used in your initial installation. 

These parts may have been included with your CIS -- if not, they are 
very inexpensive and you'll need them for long-term maintenance of 
your CIS systems anyway. Don't purchase new carts unless there is 
something defective with yours.

Go to the MIS Website (www.inksupply.com) and you'll find everything 
you need there -- instructions, troubleshooting info, CIS feed tubing 
sold by the foot, and the fill parts you need are in the catalog at: 

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/accessory.html

If you have any questions or problems, give them a call. They are 
very helpful and understand the CIS mechanism very well, since they 
sell and service their own systems. Their inks are great, too!

With all due respect to Jon and team, from the general feedback it 
seems the IJM customer support isn't up to it's previous very high 
standards. I still use their inks on some of my wide-format printers, 
but for bulk inks, parts and software I've switched to other vendors. 
If you're not getting an answer and assistance from them, call MIS -- 
I'm sure they'd be happy to help you and win your business ;>)

Good luck and happy printing!

Richard

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" 
<jellerbe@j...> wrote:
> This is a copy of an email I sent to IJM last Monday.  I still 
> haven't gotten a response from them and am wondering if anyone here 
> can help me?  Please?!
> 
> "I am installing two CIS units using Piezotone inks on Epson 
> 1160's.  I installed the first CIS without difficulty and other 
than 
> banding, it works correctly.  However, I attempted to install the 
> second CIS and am having difficulty.  The tubing from the CIS 
seemed 
> to be too short.  If the print head went all the way to the left, 
> the line was pulled taut.  I moved the velcro part over and it was 
> then too short to go all the way to the right.  In order to do 
> further adjustment, I removed the cartridges from the printer.  The 
> ink from two of the lines (the black cart and one of the color 
> lines) flowed back into the bottles and the lines are now filled 
> with air.  I have tried printing the flush image file twice but the 
> ink in those two lines has not moved.  And the ink that does make 
it 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> to the paper has a very heavy flow, puddling on the paper.
> 
> Is there a way to renew the vacuum and fill those two lines?  If 
> not, how do I fill them with ink?  What is causing the puddling?"
> 
> Thanks for any advice you can offer.

Re: CIS with 1160

2004-04-17 by Mark Hahn

the only purpose of the vacuum pump is to get the ink into the carts 
and tubes, after that it is an open system on the bottle side and 
works by syphon action... it doesn't matter how the ink gets into the 
right place.

mark

...
> I'm afraid you may need a fresh set of cartridges because you need 
to 
> put a vacuum in them so that they draw the ink from the bottles 
> through the tubes lines. And when you draw air from those filled 
> cartridges for said vacuum, you'll have ink overflowing into your 
> siphon! Also, I dont know if the tape of the bottom would hold when 
> you start that vacuum. I fail to see how it could be done 
otherwise, 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> but you never know, maybe someone will explain how to do it.
> 
> Read the pdf carefully and make sure you understand the entire 
> procedure before you start and take your time.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andre

Re: CIS with 1160

2004-04-17 by smthopr2000

Puddling huh?

I had that happen on my 1200 with the black ink and wondered what happend. I 
learned soon enough: The black ink bottle was empty, and it stopped printing 
entirely. But why the puddle? From your post I guesss I've learned that when there is 
no ink to pull in (just air) the ink flows too quickly through the cartridge.

Oh, how I fixed it.

I pulled the carts, and then found I had many colors where the ink had gone back in 
the bottles, and a lot of air in the lines.

I made sure each bottle had enough ink and then used a syringe to suck ink out of 
the hole in the cart that goes on the print head. When I pulled through a substantial 
quantity of ink, I squirted it back in the resevoir bottle (careful not to mix colors).

I ran about 5 cleaning cycles and I'm back in business.

-bruce

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" <jellerbe@j...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> This is a copy of an email I sent to IJM last Monday.  I still 
> haven't gotten a response from them and am wondering if anyone here 
> can help me?  Please?!
> 
> "I am installing two CIS units using Piezotone inks on Epson 
> 1160's.  I installed the first CIS without difficulty and other than 
> banding, it works correctly.  However, I attempted to install the 
> second CIS and am having difficulty.  The tubing from the CIS seemed 
> to be too short.  If the print head went all the way to the left, 
> the line was pulled taut.  I moved the velcro part over and it was 
> then too short to go all the way to the right.  In order to do 
> further adjustment, I removed the cartridges from the printer.  The 
> ink from two of the lines (the black cart and one of the color 
> lines) flowed back into the bottles and the lines are now filled 
> with air.  I have tried printing the flush image file twice but the 
> ink in those two lines has not moved.  And the ink that does make it 
> to the paper has a very heavy flow, puddling on the paper.
> 
> Is there a way to renew the vacuum and fill those two lines?  If 
> not, how do I fill them with ink?  What is causing the puddling?"
> 
> Thanks for any advice you can offer.

Re: CIS with 1160

2004-04-17 by byushooter

Wow.  Thanks everyone for all the responses.  You have given me a 
lot of advice that I am going to put to use today to see if I can 
get this printer working.

These 2 1160's belong to a friend who is also considering purchasing 
piezo inks for his old 7000.  From the total lack of support 
exhibited by IJM, I am definitely going to tell him to consider 
giving MIS a try.

Thanks again.

Jenny

Re: CIS with 1160

2004-04-17 by byushooter

A couple more questions ... I have read the info on the MIS 
website.  To fill the carts from the bottom it looks like I will 
need a syringe (which I have), rivets (which I assume I can get from 
the hardware store) and a device to attach to the syringe to insert 
into the carts.  Is there any type of device for that that would be 
available locally?  If not, I can order it from MIS but it would be 
great if I could get started on this sooner.

Also, the rivets ... do those stay attached to the carts even when 
they are installed in the printer?  Or are they removed before 
installation?

Thanks,
Jenny

Re: CIS with 1160

2004-04-17 by Mark Hahn

the rivets are just for plugging the hole and have to removed.  My 
guess is that those little nozzles that MIS supplies with the 
syringes are an off the shelf medical device so if you have a medical 
supply house local and can bring in a picture that they will have 
them... but I don't know what they are called.  Once you get it going 
you'll find that it will just work.  Let the freshly filled carts to 
sit for like 24 hours before trying to run your printer, you'll avoid 
a lot of frustration.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" 
<jellerbe@j...> wrote:
> A couple more questions ... I have read the info on the MIS 
> website.  To fill the carts from the bottom it looks like I will 
> need a syringe (which I have), rivets (which I assume I can get 
from 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> the hardware store) and a device to attach to the syringe to insert 
> into the carts.  Is there any type of device for that that would be 
> available locally?  If not, I can order it from MIS but it would be 
> great if I could get started on this sooner.
> 
> Also, the rivets ... do those stay attached to the carts even when 
> they are installed in the printer?  Or are they removed before 
> installation?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jenny

Re: CIS with 1160

2004-04-17 by Mark Hahn

MIS has great service... they even helped out a friend of mine with 
his Niagra system... needless to say he will go with MIS next time.

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter" 
<jellerbe@j...> wrote:
> Wow.  Thanks everyone for all the responses.  You have given me a 
> lot of advice that I am going to put to use today to see if I can 
> get this printer working.
> 
> These 2 1160's belong to a friend who is also considering 
purchasing 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> piezo inks for his old 7000.  From the total lack of support 
> exhibited by IJM, I am definitely going to tell him to consider 
> giving MIS a try.
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> Jenny

Re: CIS with 1160

2004-04-17 by jim hayes

Sorry to jump into the middle of this thread without reading any
previous entries, and as a further disclaimer, I haven't been filling
my own carts for 1 1/2 years now so I may be out of date but...

Why do you want to fill the carts from the bottom? Of course it can be
done easily, and you probably won't have a problem but the possible
disadvantages are: 1) Running a slight risk of damaging the filter
(either a mesh screen or a fiber construction, don't know what they
use these days); 2) The filter doesn't get to do it's job: filtering
out impurities in the ink that may just happen to be there. If you
fill from the top, the ink has to flow past the filter before it can
enter the head. From the bottom, all the junk can get trapped below
the filter and turn around and exit as cart is used into the head.

Perhaps the cart design has changed to prevent top vacuum filling? Or
you don't want to invest the $$ and effort (it is more complicated)?

In the files section of this list somewhere there is a detailed 7 page
pdf I wrote quite some time ago on instructions for (top) vacuum
filling of carts. I don't know if it would still be up-to-date. And I
was too lazy to include pictures. But it describes the method I used
to fill most of my carts and I rarely had a problem. It is far more
detailed then MIS instructions were. Just about all the parts are
available (or were) from MIS.

Also with vacuum filling you don't have to mess with rivits, the seals
stay intact until carts are installed. 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "byushooter"
<jellerbe@j...> wrote:
> A couple more questions ... I have read the info on the MIS 
> website.  To fill the carts from the bottom it looks like I will 
> need a syringe (which I have), rivets (which I assume I can get from 
> the hardware store)

or just buy from MIS to be sure you get the right diameter. There was
some speculation as to whether using the MIS rivets would over time,
destroy the seal through expansion. The rivits are larger in diameter
than the nipples in the head (the things that receive the ink from the
cart by sticking through the cart seals- conducting it into the head).
Then the CIS folks were offering an $$ alternative with nipple sized
pins embedded in plastic. The only problem was the ink attacked the
plastic and cracked it very quickly!
I don't think anything was ever determined, and I've used the MIS
rivits just fine.

 and a device to attach to the syringe to insert 
> into the carts.

MIS sold that as a "bottom fill adapter". Very cheap if they still
have it. Let me know if you can't find it I may have an extra one, not
sure.

  Is there any type of device for that that would be 
> available locally?

I wouldn't take chances on a jury-rig because of the possibility of
damage to the filter as stated above. I strongly emphasise this, but
again this is just the teutonic way I work.

  If not, I can order it from MIS but it would be 
> great if I could get started on this sooner.

I understand the excitement, or perhaps you are working under a
deadline for a client. I feel the same way, but it can be painful if I
rush things without having the right parts, if I jury rig a tool it
may not work right. Still, of course use your own judgement. 

> 
> Also, the rivets ... do those stay attached to the carts even when 
> they are installed in the printer?  Or are they removed before 
> installation?

Mandatory they be removed before install. Otherwise the carts wouldn't
even go in. The seals have to slip over the head nipples, and for this
they need a hole, not a hunk of impassable metal greeting them as you
press the carts down. How would the ink come out either? The rivits
come out well if you have a solid fingernail, or if you've chewed them
off in nervousness first :-), I will sometimes use a small swiss army
knife to get them started then pull the remainder with my finger.
Pulling out three from the color cart without getting ink leaking all
over is much easier than you think- it doesn't flow out that fast. But
have a paper towel or two handy to be safe.

Jim Hayes
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Thanks,
> Jenny

Re: CIS with 1160

2004-04-17 by jim hayes

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jim hayes"
<jimhayes@f...> wrote:
> Sorry to jump into the middle of this thread without reading any
> previous entries, and as a further disclaimer, I haven't been filling
> my own carts for 1 1/2 years now so I may be out of date but...
> 
> Why do you want to fill the carts from the bottom? 


OOPS!!!

Well, that was a big mistake on my part, droning on about filling carts.

I should have looked at the title and realized you're filling a CIS.
Actually I got thrown off by the talk about bottom filling and rivits.
It sounds like this CIS is being filled for at least the second time
then. Well I guess some of my comments still apply, like the bottom
fill adapter remark. Top vacuum filling would not work.

Anyway sorry for the bandwith. I'll try to remember to have the coffee
before I read messages.

Jim Hayes

Re: CIS with 1160 - Bottom Fill

2004-04-17 by richard_h95050

Hi Jenny, Jim and all,

This is indeed a lively thread -- great responses from everyone, and 
since this information applies to Jenny's 1160 and most other CIS 
installations, it's good to have this info available for all...

Jim, I understand your response about the "bottom-fill" question, and 
it may cause confusion for Jenny and others as well. Just to clarify:

The misnomer here is the term "bottom-fill", which applies to the 
name MIS uses for the syringe adapter rather than the method of using 
it to recharge a CIS system. The adapter is tapered to provide a 
tight fit to the opening on the bottom of the cart, as well as to 
activate the poppet valves if your CIS has Epson-type cart seals.

However, the actual process used to recharge a CIS using this method  
is to draw ink OUT of the cartridge through the bottom port and into 
the syringe -- i.e. leave the feed tubes connected and attached to 
their feed bottles, removing the carts, plugging the holes with 
rivets so the ports not being worked on do not leak, and then one at 
a time, removing the rivet from a chamber and drawing ink INTO the 
syringe, thereby creating a mild vacuum in the cart and drawing ink 
out of the bottles, through the feedlines and into the cart and 
syringe.

You don't actually by-pass the protective foam and screen that the 
cart uses to keep foreign matter out of the printheads because you're 
not actually injecting ink from the bottom for a CIS configuration. 
But those are very good points and because of the "bottom-fill" 
adapter's name, might save someone a lot of grief if they interpret 
the name literally ;>)

This process needs to be repeated with each chamber/cart, and the 
rivet replaced after "suctioning" ink into the cart so it doesn't 
drip while you're working on the next chamber, etc. Also, you may 
have to draw more than one syringe-full of ink through the bottom 
port to clear foam and get a good fill (recommended), so the excess 
ink can be simply dumped back into the originating bottle. Be 
careful here to not mix up the inks, and draw the syringe very slowly 
to prevent excess vacuum and cross-contamination from occurring 
between the chambers.
 
This can be a fairly messy process, so make sure your work area is 
well protected, you're wearing gloves and you don't mind a bit of ink 
splattering about. It washes off pretty easily, but not from carpets, 
walls and other porous surfaces. Windex (the original with ammonia) 
helps on clean-up quite a bit.

Other good suggestions provided by Jim, Mark and Bob include the 
printing of purge/test patterns after the procedure is complete, 
running cleaning cycles if they're not "good", letting things sit for 
6 hours or even overnight if the patterns aren't good right away, and 
very importantly, making sure there is an "air-break" in the carts 
after filling -- you don't want them to be 100% full. MIS 
instructions for restoring the air-break are here:

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/cobratrouble.html#4

I think everyone who uses a bulk feed system goes through this 
process at some point, either at installation time or for routine 
maintenance somewhere down the line. The new MIS UT inks seem to be 
much more trouble-free and require less CIS/CFS tinkering, but the 
basic principles of operation and maintenance are good to know.

In this case, Jenny, you're just getting your education a bit early 
and probably sooner than you would have preferred ;>) However, as 
Mark said, "there is no science to this stuff", just some basic 
principles usually learned with the help of the good people on forums 
like this or at MIS, and a few ink stains under your fingernails just 
to show you're a veteran ;>)

Good luck to you, Jenny -- and to all who go through this same 
process in the worthwhile endeavor to get their systems feeding 
properly. When they work right (and they will), they work great!!

 -Richard

P.S. Jenny, you mentioned you were having some banding on one of your 
1160's (which may be resolved by just letting it sit and "settle 
in"), but it would be good to also review the thread that is now 
running called "clogged 1280". There is some great info there about 
how to maintain the exterior components of the print heads on any 
Epson desktop printer, break up actual clogs, etc. 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jim hayes" 
<jimhayes@f...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jim hayes"
> <jimhayes@f...> wrote:
> > Sorry to jump into the middle of this thread without reading any
> > previous entries, and as a further disclaimer, I haven't been 
filling
> > my own carts for 1 1/2 years now so I may be out of date but...
> > 
> > Why do you want to fill the carts from the bottom? 
> 
> 
> OOPS!!!
> 
> Well, that was a big mistake on my part, droning on about filling 
carts.
> 
> I should have looked at the title and realized you're filling a CIS.
> Actually I got thrown off by the talk about bottom filling and 
rivits.
> It sounds like this CIS is being filled for at least the second time
> then. Well I guess some of my comments still apply, like the bottom
> fill adapter remark. Top vacuum filling would not work.
> 
> Anyway sorry for the bandwith. I'll try to remember to have the 
coffee
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> before I read messages.
> 
> Jim Hayes

Re: CIS with 1160 - Bottom Fill

2004-04-17 by byushooter

I am really amazed at all of the helpful information from you guys.  
If I had written here last Monday, instead of to IJM, I would be 
printing by now!  I can't find an adapter to insert into the carts 
so it looks like I will be ordering from MIS.

Richard ... thanks for the clarifications and for the tips about the 
1280 thread.


Thanks!!!!

Jenny

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