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Genuine Fractals

Genuine Fractals

2004-04-06 by Joe Davajon

I'm wondering if any of you are using Genuine Fractals.  On the face of it, the 
program sounds good.  Lizard asserts that one can take a small file and 
enlarge it withous loss of any kind.  For example, one can take a file that prints 
at 8x10 satisfactorily but at 16x20 is unacceptable and using Genuine 
Fractals can enlarge to 16x20 "lossless" or even larger and have the same 
sharpness one had at 8x10.  I'm thinking that if the deal sounds to be too good 
to be true it probably isn't true.  I downloaded a trial version and frankly it 
looks good to me.  But, before springing for $300.00, I'd appreciate imput from 
those who may be experienced using the program.  Any thoughts on this 
issue?  Thanks in advance.
Joe D.

Re: Genuine Fractals

2004-04-06 by jnhugo

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Davajon" 
<davajon@s...> wrote:
and frankly it 
> looks good to me.  But, before springing for $300.00, I'd 
appreciate imput from 
> those who may be experienced using the program.  Any thoughts on 
this 
> issue?  Thanks in advance.
> Joe D.

actually you stumbled on to the secret of art- if it looks good to 
you-that's all that matters...
jack

Re: Genuine Fractals

2004-04-06 by Andre

But, before springing for $300.00, I'd appreciate imput from 
> those who may be experienced using the program.  Any thoughts on 
this 
> issue?  Thanks in advance.
> Joe D.

Get Irfanview at www.irfanview.com.

It resamples with a Lanczos filter which is as good as, if not better 
than, Genuine Fractals. And best of all, its free!

Cheers,
Andre

RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2004-04-07 by don.swanson

Don't even consider sending off $300.00 until you have checked out:
<http://www.americaswonderlands.com/digital_photo_interpolation.htm#Kneson%2
0(Standard)>
I use Qimage because it appears to be the best without requiring extra
steps.
Make sure that you join all of the parts of the link together.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Davajon [mailto:davajon@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 4:13 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals


I'm wondering if any of you are using Genuine Fractals.  On the face of it,
the
program sounds good.  Lizard asserts that one can take a small file and
enlarge it withous loss of any kind.  For example, one can take a file that
prints
at 8x10 satisfactorily but at 16x20 is unacceptable and using Genuine
Fractals can enlarge to 16x20 "lossless" or even larger and have the same
sharpness one had at 8x10.  I'm thinking that if the deal sounds to be too
good
to be true it probably isn't true.  I downloaded a trial version and frankly
it
looks good to me.  But, before springing for $300.00, I'd appreciate imput
from
those who may be experienced using the program.  Any thoughts on this
issue?  Thanks in advance.
Joe D.

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2004-04-07 by lea

I've used it for several years now...mostly with my images used for
licensing on large objects. It works and it is a wonderful program. I'm
not aware of any other program like it.

One of my images was converted from an 8x10 scan and blown to 4x8 feet
using GF. Many were were taken from 5x7" 300 dpi scans and enlarged to
16" placemats. Another was taken from a 5x7" 300 dpi scan and made to a
20" poster.

Worth the money if you go big and need the clarity.
Lea
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Davajon" <davajon@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 6:12 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals


I'm wondering if any of you are using Genuine Fractals.  On the face of
it, the
program sounds good.  Lizard asserts that one can take a small file and
enlarge it withous loss of any kind.  For example, one can take a file
that prints
at 8x10 satisfactorily but at 16x20 is unacceptable and using Genuine
Fractals can enlarge to 16x20 "lossless" or even larger and have the
same
sharpness one had at 8x10.  I'm thinking that if the deal sounds to be
too good
to be true it probably isn't true.  I downloaded a trial version and
frankly it
looks good to me.  But, before springing for $300.00, I'd appreciate
imput from
those who may be experienced using the program.  Any thoughts on this
issue?  Thanks in advance.
Joe D.





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Re: Genuine Fractals

2004-04-07 by John Vitollo

"Joe Davajon" wrote:
> I'm wondering if any of you are using Genuine Fractals.  On the face of it, the 
> program sounds good. 

Genuine Fractals uses a proprietary file format and just has strange work flow. Who knows 
in five years if the GF file format will be around. Anyway your best bet is to use Photoshop 
CS as it has a much improved algorithm for upsizing.

Visit: http://www.interpolatethis.com/ and go to the forums.

I have tested SmartScale; S-Spline; GF; Photoshop CS and stair stepping in Photoshop 7 
and CS and it's all so close - some images up rez better in one program than another but 
could never find the common denominator as to why.

With that said I will say S-Spline and Fred Miranda's Stair Interpolation Pro seemed the 
most consistent out of all of them.

Try Fred's first - it's pretty cool and easy to use.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/software/

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2004-04-07 by orbancc

I use GF also.  I usually enlarge in 1" steps up to the final size - 
going from 11x14 up to 24x30.  I'd like to do 1% steps, but my 
workstation is way too slow.  The final step from, like, 22"x28" to 
23"x29" takes 15 minutes on my PIII/733MHz/512MB RAM.  Now I'm 
lusting after a P4/3GHz with at least 2 GB RAM.  What size step 
increase do you use?  And do you know if there is any way to re-
invoke the GF dialog box without having to do a Save As ... followed 
by Open of the .STN file?

ro

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lea" <lea@w...> 
wrote:
> I've used it for several years now...mostly with my images used for
> licensing on large objects. It works and it is a wonderful program. 
I'm
> not aware of any other program like it.
> 
> One of my images was converted from an 8x10 scan and blown to 4x8 
feet
> using GF. Many were were taken from 5x7" 300 dpi scans and enlarged 
to
> 16" placemats. Another was taken from a 5x7" 300 dpi scan and made 
to a
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 20" poster.
> 
> Worth the money if you go big and need the clarity.
> Lea

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2004-04-07 by Tom Baker

I've used GF for a couple of years.  It works great, but:  unless it has changed recently, it doesn't support 16 bit files.  Also, it is 'lossless'.  That desn't mean that it sharpens your image.  It means that what you give it at a small diminsion will be enlarged without losing any of the existing sharpness.  So, if you want to go from 5x7 to, say, 30x40, you can expect to get the same look AT AN APPROPRIATE VIEWING DISTANCE for the bigger image.  If you look at the resulting 30x40 up close, you will see what looks like a loss of sharpness.  If you've got high pixel density images to start with, you can go quite big with very good results.

I'm not sure, however, that some of the other products on the market aren't just as good.  And maybe chearper, like FREE.

 

Tom Baker



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2004-04-07 by Frank J Mares

I have also used GF for 2-3 years. Works fine and in my system stable. As an
aside I did go to their web site recently for any updates and they are
possibly going to release a 16 bit upgrade but no price mentioned or date
mentioned!
 http://www.lizardtech.com/solutions/gf/gf_faq.php

Thanks 
Frank 
FRANCIS JAMES MARES PHOTOGRAPHY
EMAIL:FJMARES@...
WWW.FJMARESPHOTO.COM
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Baker [mailto:tbaker1328@sbcglobal.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 8:24 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals


I've used GF for a couple of years.  It works great, but:  unless it has
changed recently, it doesn't support 16 bit files.  Also, it is 'lossless'.
That desn't mean that it sharpens your image.  It means that what you give
it at a small diminsion will be enlarged without losing any of the existing
sharpness.  So, if you want to go from 5x7 to, say, 30x40, you can expect to
get the same look AT AN APPROPRIATE VIEWING DISTANCE for the bigger image.
If you look at the resulting 30x40 up close, you will see what looks like a
loss of sharpness.  If you've got high pixel density images to start with,
you can go quite big with very good results.

I'm not sure, however, that some of the other products on the market aren't
just as good.  And maybe chearper, like FREE.

 

Tom Baker



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Genuine Fractals

2004-04-07 by Joe Davajon

< John Vitollo <jvlist@...> wrote:
Visit: http://www.interpolatethis.com...
...I will say S-Spline and Fred Miranda's Stair
Interpolation Pro seemed the most consistent out of
all of them.

Try Fred's first - it's pretty cool and easy to use.
http://www.fredmiranda.com/software>

Many thanks to you and the seven other members who
responded to my question about GF.  This is another
example of how a "brain trust" like this forum can be
an immense help to others.  I was ready to spring for
$300 (very reluctantly) for Genuine Fractals when you
emailed the suggestion to look at the above site. 
After studying the site carefully, I concluded that
the Miranda program looked every bit as good and even
perhaps better than GF. An added inducement was the
program is less than $20.  So I opted for it and I now
have 280 reasons to be grateful to you for taking a
moment out to respond to my request for information. 
Joe D.

RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2004-04-07 by Joe Dempsey

I have used Genuine Fractals just about since it was first introduced ...
even before Lizard Tech was the distributor. It works beautifully and has
saved my bacon on more than one occasion. It is just about the most bug-free
program I have ever used. I consider it an essential part of my arsenal of
graphics programs. If you need to enlarge smaller files, it is the only
route to go.

Thanks,

Joe

Remember that there is nothing stable in human affairs; therefore avoid

undue elation in prosperity, or undue depression in adversity.



Socrates, philosopher (469?-399 BCE)


Joe Dempsey Communications Co.
Marketing •  Advertising •  Public Relations  • Web Sites
Office 870.536.5758
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Pine Bluff AR 71601

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Printing  •  Fine Photography  • Radio / TV / Video Production • Digital Art


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Genuine Fractals

2004-04-07 by Val Brunell

John...Interesting post.  I know little about up-sampling, but I 
take it from your post that if I stair-step with PS CS I should get 
results comparable to using the specialized software like GF.  Is 
this correct?  thanks...Val




   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John 
Vitollo" <jvlist@c...> wrote:
> "Joe Davajon" wrote:
> > I'm wondering if any of you are using Genuine Fractals.  On the 
face of it, the 
> > program sounds good. 
> 
> Genuine Fractals uses a proprietary file format and just has 
strange work flow. Who knows 
> in five years if the GF file format will be around. Anyway your 
best bet is to use Photoshop 
> CS as it has a much improved algorithm for upsizing.
> 
> Visit: http://www.interpolatethis.com/ and go to the forums.
> 
> I have tested SmartScale; S-Spline; GF; Photoshop CS and stair 
stepping in Photoshop 7 
> and CS and it's all so close - some images up rez better in one 
program than another but 
> could never find the common denominator as to why.
> 
> With that said I will say S-Spline and Fred Miranda's Stair 
Interpolation Pro seemed the 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> most consistent out of all of them.
> 
> Try Fred's first - it's pretty cool and easy to use.
> 
> http://www.fredmiranda.com/software/

Re: Genuine Fractals

2004-04-07 by John Vitollo

"Val Brunell" <vbrunell@d...> wrote:
> John...Interesting post.  I know little about up-sampling, but I 
> take it from your post that if I stair-step with PS CS I should get 
> results comparable to using the specialized software like GF.  Is 
> this correct?  thanks...Val

Yes... actually with PS CS it's recommended to up sample in 50% steps as it has better 
algorithms than past Photoshops. With older Photoshop apps upsampling in 10% steps 
seems to be the best.

Re: Genuine Fractals

2004-04-09 by Barrett Benton

Perhaps a heretical viewpoint: I think it depends on the nature of 
the image.  If you're dealing with direct digital capture, something 
like GF is probably a necessity if you desire printing at 
impressive sizes (16x20" and beyond).  How much "help" is 
needed depends on the level of digital capture - a 16x20" print 
from a file generated by a Canon D30 is quite different from that 
of an EOS-1Ds (or a Phase One back, for that matter).  Genuine 
Fractals seems to be the de facto commercial standard for the 
moment, but it is not the only solution readily available. 

Since I deal almost entirely with 35mm film, I prefer scanning at 
as high an optical resolution as posiible (without breaking the 
bank), and outputting/printing with a relative minimum of digital 
jiggery-pokery, leaving interpolation - by whatever means - as a 
last resort.  Fortunately, as of late last year, the acquisition of a 
Minolta Dimage Scan Elite 5400 film scanner has brought me a 
good deal closer to my ideal workflow (and I emphasize that it's 
simply *my* ideal;  there are may roads to a good final result, as 
can be easily assessed on this Group).  In my current 35mm 
workflow, interpolation is unnecessary up to around 18x25" 
output;  In the rare event where I need to use interpolation, I work 
with Fred Miranda's Stairstep  arrangement via Photoshop, 
which yields decent results, and,  simply in terms of 
bang-for-the-buck performance, runs rings around Genuine 
Fractals.

- Barrett

Re: Genuine Fractals

2004-04-09 by Tim Atherton

I much prefer Photo Zoom Pro or even the more basic Zoom View to either GF
or the Miranda system

Especially the zoom pro which lets you pick from several algorithms as well
as fiddle with the parameters yourself (it also includes an excellent
sharpening set-up which you can switch on or off and adjust parameters for).
And their main algorithm seems very good. although I generally use them on
quite large files, I've also taken very small 72dpi ones in interpolated
them up and it's amazing what it will do. Overall I've generally found it to
be superior - and that's as a long time GF user.

tim

[Digital BW] Re: Genuine Fractals

2004-04-09 by Tim Atherton

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
<tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> Who produces Zoom View/Pro?

www.trulyphotomagic.com

you can download demos - which give you a pretty good idea if yopu 
play with different sized files - though you do have to peer through 
the watermark.

And it can be rather slow - though I guess it's doing more work...

tim

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Genuine Fractals

2004-04-09 by Victor

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 04:33:24 -0000, you wrote:

>www.trulyphotomagic.com
>
>you can download demos - which give you a pretty good idea if yopu 
>play with different sized files - though you do have to peer through 
>the watermark.
>
>And it can be rather slow - though I guess it's doing more work...

There's no watermark on screen -- only on the saved output.

Victor Engel
lights@...

[Digital BW] Re: Genuine Fractals

2004-04-10 by Tyler Boley

Interesting, looks good if you ever need this sort of thing. The good
news is that it works on 16 bit files and the histo looks ok after
upsizing. Lots of potentialy helpful options as well.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Atherton"
<timatherton@t...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker 
> <tbaker1328@s...> wrote:
> > Who produces Zoom View/Pro?
> 
> www.trulyphotomagic.com
> 
> you can download demos - which give you a pretty good idea if yopu 
> play with different sized files - though you do have to peer through 
> the watermark.
> 
> And it can be rather slow - though I guess it's doing more work...
> 
> tim

Genuine Fractals

2005-08-17 by Ted Shaw

G'day -

I'm looking for advice on a program called Genuine Fractals - I think Paul Roark mentioned it a while back. It is supposed to provide a method of enlarging photos without losing quality, regardless of resolution.

Genuine FractalsT
for extraordinary image enlargement capability and greater flexibility in working with digital images 


The web site is:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/SOFT/GF/GF.HTM

Would greatly appreciate any feedback about this application from those who have tried it.

Many thanks,

Ted

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-17 by Jeff Medkeff

Ted Shaw wrote:



> Would greatly appreciate any feedback about this 
 > application from those who have tried it.

I was under the impression that Genuine Fractals was thought to be 
getting a bit long in the tooth and that more recent spline software was 
favored for several reasons.

I have used Genuine Fractals, but it was two or three years ago now, and 
I found s-spline to be more appropriate for my use. It did a better job 
of producing a high-acutance image without introducing artifacts, and 
didn't require me to save the image in a weird file format that only one 
program understands. Not that s-spline is terribly new compared to 
Genuine Fractals' mystery math, but it did a very nice job for me. I 
think one of the more highly regarded commercial implementations of 
s-spline is called Photozoom Pro or some such.

-- 
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-17 by bmikiten

Download the demo. I have it but wasn't that impressed for my application.

Brian

==============
G'day -

I'm looking for advice on a program called Genuine Fractals - I think Paul
Roark mentioned it a while back. It is supposed to provide a method of
enlarging photos without losing quality, regardless of resolution.

Genuine FractalsT
for extraordinary image enlargement capability and greater flexibility in
working with digital images 


The web site is:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/SOFT/GF/GF.HTM

Would greatly appreciate any feedback about this application from those who
have tried it.

Many thanks,

Ted

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-17 by Bert Katzung

Another problem with Genuine Fractals is that (last time I used it) it will 
only handle 8 bit images.
Bert

katzung1@...
www.astronomy-images.com
www.visionlightgallery.com/katzung/
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Medkeff" <medkeff@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals


Ted Shaw wrote:



> Would greatly appreciate any feedback about this
 > application from those who have tried it.

I was under the impression that Genuine Fractals was thought to be
getting a bit long in the tooth and that more recent spline software was
favored for several reasons.

I have used Genuine Fractals, but it was two or three years ago now, and
I found s-spline to be more appropriate for my use. It did a better job
of producing a high-acutance image without introducing artifacts, and
didn't require me to save the image in a weird file format that only one
program understands. Not that s-spline is terribly new compared to
Genuine Fractals' mystery math, but it did a very nice job for me. I
think one of the more highly regarded commercial implementations of
s-spline is called Photozoom Pro or some such.

-- 
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: Genuine Fractals

2005-08-17 by Richard Orban

I (www.AAubreyBodine.com) use GF with PS CS to enlarge our scans of 
(mostly) 11x14s (some 8x10s) to as large as 24x30 (using an Epson 
7600).  I go in 1.5" steps in the larger dimension.  I compared this 
technique to using the PS Image Size command and I prefer the results 
of GF - sharper edges with less/no blowout of artifacts.  WFIW.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ted Shaw" 
<tedshaw@o...> wrote:
> G'day -
> 
> I'm looking for advice on a program called Genuine Fractals - I 
think Paul Roark mentioned it a while back. It is supposed to provide 
a method of enlarging photos without losing quality, regardless of 
resolution.
> 
> Genuine FractalsT
> for extraordinary image enlargement capability and greater 
flexibility in working with digital images 
> 
> 
> The web site is:
> http://www.imaging-resource.com/SOFT/GF/GF.HTM
> 
> Would greatly appreciate any feedback about this application from 
those who have tried it.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> Ted

RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-17 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Ted Shaw
>
> I'm looking for advice on a program called Genuine Fractals - I
> think Paul Roark mentioned it a while back. It is supposed to
> provide a method of enlarging photos without losing quality,
> regardless of resolution.

Unlike other resizing algorithms, which are linear, GF plays some tricks in
order to artificially preserve edge sharpness. This works well for actual
edges, but is confused by fine detail that doesn't really consist of edges.
For an example of what GF looks like in comparison to Photoshop's
conventional bicubic interpolation, when cranked up to an extreme level, see
http://www.pbase.com/pderocco/image/36593399 and the following image. Be
sure to view at "Original" size. You can see how it tries to interpret the
detail in the bushes as edges.

Of course, this is an exaggerated use (10x magnification, I think), intended
to expose what the program is trying to do. In more moderate use, it can
work pretty well, but I'm not sure it's worth the price, at least for normal
photography.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-17 by John Moody

We sound like a broken record here but...  Qimage..excellent.  CS2 is pretty
good as well assuming you are not trying to scale too excessively.

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ted Shaw
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 5:16 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

G'day -

I'm looking for advice on a program called Genuine Fractals - I think Paul
Roark mentioned it a while back. It is supposed to provide a method of
enlarging photos without losing quality, regardless of resolution.

Genuine FractalsT
for extraordinary image enlargement capability and greater flexibility in
working with digital images


The web site is:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/SOFT/GF/GF.HTM

Would greatly appreciate any feedback about this application from those who
have tried it.

Many thanks,

Ted




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-17 by Ken Carney

I've used it for some time.  It seems to work well, in that I don't see any
issues with the enlarged prints compared to the original, in terms of
tonality or sharpness.   However, I'm using it for moderate enlargement, say
a  8x12" 300ppi print enlarged to 12x18 at 300ppi.  I don't have any
experience with huge enlargements.  Two comments:  It is slow, especially
with 16-bit files, but then my PC is older.  Secondly, you'll want to
enlarge an unsharpened image, then do all sharpening as the final step
before printing.  GF also offers a compressed file mode, but I've never used
it.

  --Ken

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of Ted Shaw
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:16 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals
> 
> G'day -
> 
> I'm looking for advice on a program called Genuine Fractals - 
> I think Paul Roark mentioned it a while back. It is supposed 
> to provide a method of enlarging photos without losing 
> quality, regardless of resolution.
> 
> Genuine FractalsT
> for extraordinary image enlargement capability and greater 
> flexibility in working with digital images 
> 
> 
> The web site is:
> http://www.imaging-resource.com/SOFT/GF/GF.HTM
> 
> Would greatly appreciate any feedback about this application 
> from those who have tried it.
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> Ted
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Jeff Medkeff

John Moody wrote:


> We sound like a broken record here but...  Qimage..excellent.  CS2 is pretty
> good as well assuming you are not trying to scale too excessively.

Since I have a few minutes free, John's comment seems like a good 
opportunity to talk a little more about splines....

What spline(s) does Qimage implement? According to the website, they 
support "Lanczos, Vector, and Pyramid" interpolation. Are these the only 
three? I understand 'vector' and 'pyramid' to be spline classes, which 
makes it hard to understand exactly what Qimage is claiming. There are 
good and bad pyramid splines (when it comes to applying them to images, 
at least), and I expect the same is true of vector splines. Lanczos, 
however, is a specific way to compute the spline, and it is quite good 
with a typical photographic image and doesn't do at all poorly on 
graphics designs with lots of smooth lines, either. I'm also a little 
unclear on whether Qimage will allow you to open a TIFF, compute its 
spline, and save it back as a TIFF for more work in Photoshop, or 
whether it is a print output tool only.

Photoshop is strictly 18th and 19th century in terms of its spline 
support. And I mean that quite literally - the math behind all three of 
their methods is at minimum well over a century out of date. The three 
methods are bicubic, bilinear, and nearest neighbor. Bicubic is an 
excellent way to undersample, but is a rather problematical algorithm 
for oversampling - more on this in a moment. Bilinear is something of a 
special-case spline, not usually appropriate for upsampling photographs. 
And nearest neighbor is a blunt instrument that I think I independently 
invented when I was 16 for interpolating values from Cepheid light 
curves on an Atari 400 in CPM/BASIC. It is possible this spline was 
invented prior to the year 1500. You don't want to go there. Photoshop 
is in pretty serious need of spline improvement.

I think it is still true that Genuine Fractals is proprietary (hence my 
previous reference to "mystery math"). If so, nobody really knows what 
it does. I do agree with another poster that GF is almost always better 
than bicubic for oversampling, especially at certain ratios where 
bicubic tends to resonate.

Photozoom Pro supports the S-spline, Lanczos, Hermite, Bell, Mitchell, 
Catmull-Rom, B, Nearest-Neighbor, Bicubic, and Bilinear splines. I can't 
say my experience is extensive with most of these.

Part of the "problem" with some splines is that they are either patented 
(for example, S and B) and rarely or never licensed, or they are trade 
secrets (for example, Genuine Fractals). Also, spline computation is a 
very fast-moving area of math these days. All this accounts for the 
fragmentation of the spline market and the reason there are a dozen 
tools out there. However, the patents also mean you can go read all 
about the method, sometimes including the math.

S spline is particularly interesting in this respect. It avoids aliasing 
entirely, as far as I can tell (actually, I think it would alias at 
ridiculously high frequency proportions, well beyond what would ever be 
encountered in real life). The technique does not make any changes to 
the proportional tonality of the image (some other interpolations, but 
by no means all, do). It almost fully preserves, but does not enhance, 
acutance (this avoids the excessive shadowing along tonal boundaries, 
similar to overusing USM, that some splines introduce). Mathematically, 
the image coming out of s spline has bulk properties (acutance, edge 
sharpness, histogram) nearly identical to the original.

 From my experience with it, I think the S spline is currently the gold 
standard against which all other methods of computing a spline should be 
compared. It can be used pretty effectively at any point in the 
workflow, including (I believe, somewhat heretically) being applied 
after sharpening if you are using something other than USM. In the 
spirit of making a meaningful comparison to S, I'll say:

Lanczos: comes fairly close to S, tending to introduce certain artifacts 
on medium-contrast boundaries but doing very well with sharp graphic 
design edges and not bad at all on most photographs. Does not preserve 
image acutance as well as S, but it is a small difference. If you have a 
tool that does Lanczos, you probably don't need to move to a tool that 
has S.

Genuine Fractals: notably inferior to S based on my experiences a few 
years back. It fails to preserve acutance as well as S or Lanczos, and 
bulk tonality changes can result in images with multiple high contrast 
boundaries. However, it is far better than Bicubic.

Bicubic: really, really stinks compared to S, Lanczos, and GF. It 
aliases, resonates, and introduces several different kinds of artifacts 
including one which appears similar to noise, and another which is 
similar to a ghost image of brightly toned image elements. It also fails 
to preserve image acutance, doing far worse than GF in this respect.

I'd be curious to hear what people have thought about Lanczos or GF in 
comparison to algorithms such as Qimage's Pyramid and Vector, and the 
T-spline (if anyone is using it). Also, I'm perfectly open to being told 
my impressions of the four splines above are wrong - there are some 
unavoidable mathematical *facts* about all of them, and I really like 
dealing in facts; but their application is aesthetic in this context, 
and that makes all the difference. I'm not married to my spline by any 
means.

-- 
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Medkeff
<medkeff@g...> wrote:
snip...
> I think it is still true that Genuine Fractals is proprietary (hence my 
> previous reference to "mystery math"). If so, nobody really knows what 
> it does....

snip...

Jeff, you may find this interesting-
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/message/62108
It was posted on the LF list by Mark Jaress who was heavily involved
it GF developement.
He seems to suggest that GF's day in the sun is in the past. 
I haven't followed this thread here, or the one that lead to Mark's
post, but those invloved here may wish to see the thread there as it
seemed pretty involved.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by john dean

I'll tell you I just downloaded Stair Step Interpolation Pro 2 from
the fred miranda dot com site and this software just gets better and
better each version. For about $25 bucks you simply can't beat it.
He's added some new features like noise reduction for digital camera
files. It's so easy and inexpensive. I've done blow ups like 40"x60"
on canvas from drum scans of 35mm negs that I just shouldn't have been
able to pull off but could with the previous version. I can't
recommend it highly enough for 20D files. I never like the artifacts
that Genuine Fractals produced. I got better results from Bicubic
Photoshop upsampling.

John




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Medkeff
> <medkeff@g...> wrote:
> snip...
> > I think it is still true that Genuine Fractals is proprietary
(hence my 
> > previous reference to "mystery math"). If so, nobody really knows
what 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > it does....
> 
> snip...
> 
> Jeff, you may find this interesting-
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/message/62108
> It was posted on the LF list by Mark Jaress who was heavily involved
> it GF developement.
> He seems to suggest that GF's day in the sun is in the past. 
> I haven't followed this thread here, or the one that lead to Mark's
> post, but those invloved here may wish to see the thread there as it
> seemed pretty involved.
> Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by lulalake_1999

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> I'll tell you I just downloaded Stair Step Interpolation Pro 2 from
> the fred miranda dot com site and this software just gets better and
> better each version. For about $25 bucks you simply can't beat it.
> He's added some new features like noise reduction for digital camera
> files. It's so easy and inexpensive. I've done blow ups like 40"x60"
> on canvas from drum scans of 35mm negs that I just shouldn't have been
> able to pull off but could with the previous version. I can't
> recommend it highly enough for 20D files. I never like the artifacts
> that Genuine Fractals produced. I got better results from Bicubic
> Photoshop upsampling.
> 
> John
> 
Wow John, pretty amazing. I have his first version and was very 
dissapointed in it compared to CS Bicubic resize as you mentioned. I'm 
glad to hear that the new one works well.

Cheers

Jules

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Jeff Medkeff

john dean wrote:


> I'll tell you I just downloaded Stair Step Interpolation Pro 2 from
> the fred miranda dot com site and this software just gets better and
> better each version. For about $25 bucks you simply can't beat it.

The urls:

Win: http://www.fredmiranda.com/shopping/SIpro

Mac: http://www.fredmiranda.com/shopping/SImpro

Stair interpolation refers to iteratively computing a spline over and 
over again, usually in fixed proportions, until you get the output size 
you want. For example, if you used bicubic interpolation and increased 
the file size by 10% each time, until you got where you wanted to be, 
that would be stair interpolation. If you used S spline the same way, 
that would also be stair interpolation.

Several web sites report that FM SI Pro is bicubic stair interpolation 
at 12% per iteration, and several note that the results with "bicubic 
smoother" in CS2 is just as good. This sort of exchange is typical:

http://www.nikonians.org/dcforum/DCForumID36/2568.html#1

However, although there are several reports along these lines, I have no 
idea if they are true and I don't really know how you would test to see 
if the algorithm is bicubic. I'd really like to see a comparison between 
the FM tool, stair bicubic, and S spline. Does anyone want to exchange 
some files with me so that we can set it up?

Incidentally, S spline typically beats the snot out of stair bicubic, 
but then s spline costs $129 to Fred Miranda's $25, which isn't beans.

In unrelated news, there appears to be an entire web site devoted to the 
subject of interpolation of photographs, complete with discussion forums:

http://www.interpolatethis.com/

Also, Tyler, thanks very much for pointing out the discussion on the 
epson wide list - it was very illuminating.

-- 
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Jeff Medkeff
>
> Stair interpolation refers to iteratively computing a spline over and
> over again, usually in fixed proportions, until you get the output size
> you want. For example, if you used bicubic interpolation and increased
> the file size by 10% each time, until you got where you wanted to be,
> that would be stair interpolation. If you used S spline the same way,
> that would also be stair interpolation.
>
> Several web sites report that FM SI Pro is bicubic stair interpolation
> at 12% per iteration, and several note that the results with "bicubic
> smoother" in CS2 is just as good. This sort of exchange is typical:

It seems to me that any linear filter applied multiple times is just another
different linear filter, and can be precomputed as such in advance, and
applied in the same amount of time it takes to do any other single filter.
Doing it iteratively seems like the dumb way to do it (if you're writing the
software, that is), and might also build up noise due to accumulated
roundoff errors, especially if computation is done in 8-bit mode.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by john dean

I'm certainly no expert on the finer scientific points of
interpolation. In fact it was all against my religion until this past
year when I started getting more and more more digital camera files
that people wanted fairly large output from. I lived by Frasiers
statement that the one thing to know about interpolation is - don't do
it. My feeling about it now is that I might as well get used to it
because its going to be with us for awhile until these camera chips
get better. Sure people have been doing this 10% increment thing in ps
for years, and many still do with with good results (better than GF by
the way for all the hype that surrounded it). I have also heard that
the CS BC Smoother function is also quite good and I don't know what
the math is behind it. 

It certainly would be nice to take the same file and res it up
different ways to do a comparison test. I'll be glad to do the Miranda
test of it and or PSCS2. You know all this is to a degree image
dependent also. With the digital camera files and any ccd capture for
that matter noise is always a nagging problem in the extremes, whether
it is upsampled or not. I assume that is why Miranda has added this
new smart blur filter between each step of the action. I have to read
more about it to discuss it intelligently but it does work.

You guys have made me want to look into all this furthur. I gues with
all these Cannon cameras out there I'll have no choice. Now ... back
to drum scanning, my real optical files...

John





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco"
<pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: Jeff Medkeff
> >
> > Stair interpolation refers to iteratively computing a spline over and
> > over again, usually in fixed proportions, until you get the output
size
> > you want. For example, if you used bicubic interpolation and increased
> > the file size by 10% each time, until you got where you wanted to be,
> > that would be stair interpolation. If you used S spline the same way,
> > that would also be stair interpolation.
> >
> > Several web sites report that FM SI Pro is bicubic stair interpolation
> > at 12% per iteration, and several note that the results with "bicubic
> > smoother" in CS2 is just as good. This sort of exchange is typical:
> 
> It seems to me that any linear filter applied multiple times is just
another
> different linear filter, and can be precomputed as such in advance, and
> applied in the same amount of time it takes to do any other single
filter.
> Doing it iteratively seems like the dumb way to do it (if you're
writing the
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> software, that is), and might also build up noise due to accumulated
> roundoff errors, especially if computation is done in 8-bit mode.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Daniel Staver

I recently tested the demo version of Shortcut PhotoZoom Pro and was
impressed with the results. 

It lets you choose between many different scaling algorithms. S-Sline was
the best for digital images, but some of the others were better for grainy
film scans. S-spline appeared to sharpen the grain too much.

It did a really good job keeping edges sharp even in very big enlargements.
Some rounded edges still showed hints of pixelation but most were good.
Details and textures looked less pixelated than normal upsampling. 

It has a function to add artifical detail, but I'm not sure how useful it
is. It seemed to add texture to random parts of the image.

You can find the demo on their web-site:
http://www.trulyphotomagic.com/

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Jeff Medkeff

Daniel Staver wrote:



> S-spline appeared to sharpen the grain too much.

Photozoom Pro applies USM to an s spline resampled image by default. 
This can be turned off, and should be. The effect of the default USM 
settings on film grain are rather extreme. That said, I've not processed 
more than a few film images with the program; it is possible that s 
spline without USM is just not a good match with certain grain 
characteristics.


> It has a function to add artifical detail, but I'm not sure how useful it
> is.

Not useful, in my opinion. I've never seen an image that was improved 
thereby. I've tried the feature out quite extensively; it ranges from 
doing nothing obvious to the image, to adding all kinds of 
noisy-looking, high frequency "detail" that certainly doesn't seem to 
improve a print. Perhaps I should find out what the manual says the 
feature is for....

-- 
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Daniel Staver

> > S-spline appeared to sharpen the grain too much.
> Photozoom Pro applies USM to an s spline resampled image by default. 
> This can be turned off, and should be. The effect of the 
> default USM settings on film grain are rather extreme. That 
> said, I've not processed more than a few film images with the 
> program; it is possible that s spline without USM is just not 
> a good match with certain grain characteristics.

I switched off USM in my tests, but grain was still more visible with
s-spline than with other methods. I think it's a result of the way it tries
to detect edges and keep them sharp during upsampling.
 
--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Jeff Medkeff

Daniel Staver wrote:


> I switched off USM in my tests, but grain was still more visible with
> s-spline than with other methods.

Thanks, Daniel - I'll file this information away, as its likely to be 
helpful at some point.

-- 
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by kenstrain2000

The technical coverage on this subject has (as usual) been excellent.
 

One piece of advice I'd give is to judge in the print (at "normal"
magnification), not on the screen.   One can get tied in knots with
the vast range of interpolation/sharpening options available, not all
of which make that much difference in a print at normal viewing
distance.   Until (unless) you know how the screen view transfers to
the print it is safer to judge in the print.

Fortunately, as usual, most options have free trial versions, it is up
to you to decide whether a little extra noise is good or bad in your
prints, or if a harder/softer approach to edges works well in your
images.  

Apologies if someone already mentioned this and I missed it.

Ken

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Ted Shaw

G'day -

Thanks (I think) to all replies on Genuine Fractals - my head is spinning. This is what I get for asking a simple question in a room full of experts. :) I thought I was just turning on the kitchen tap, but got the fire hose instead. 

Now to try to digest it all.

Thanks again,

Ted :)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by brucenorikane

"john dean" <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
...
> It certainly would be nice to take the same file and res it up
> different ways to do a comparison test. I'll be glad to do the Miranda
> test of it and or PSCS2.

there was a great thread on DPReview that compared interpolated
images.   The images were in the thread.  People discussed and voted
on their favorites. The voting was not unaminous, but Qimage's vector
(test was before pyramid availability) and GF seemed to score highest.
the thread is still there, but the images seem to have disappeared:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=7642362

There is a followup posted by Qimage's Mike Chaney that compares his
newer pyramid interpolation to several others:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=7642362

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Steven Karafyllakis

Jeff;

 I'm also a little 
> unclear on whether Qimage will allow you to open a TIFF, compute 
its 
> spline, and save it back as a TIFF for more work in Photoshop, or 
> whether it is a print output tool only.
> 

Many QTR users are using the 'print to file' function of Qimage to 
get the upsampling and compositing. I just checked-you can reopen a 
file in PS and continue working on it.

Another way to get into S-spline that may be cheaper: Panotools and 
PTGui. It has spline-16 and spline-32  for pano creation, but I once 
inquired and yes, it is possible to input a single image and 
interpolate it up. Never tried it, however, so I don't know how 
clunky it might or might not be.


Steve Karafyllakis

RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by John Moody

I tried it for single image up-rez, it does work.  IIRC, you lose any
attached profile, so you have to keep things organized.

It also has spline-64 and sinc1024, FWIW.  The math is explained at
http://www.path.unimelb.edu.au/~dersch/interpolator/interpolator.html

John
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Steven
Karafyllakis
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 9:57 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

Jeff;

I'm also a little
> unclear on whether Qimage will allow you to open a TIFF, compute
its
> spline, and save it back as a TIFF for more work in Photoshop, or
> whether it is a print output tool only.
>

Many QTR users are using the 'print to file' function of Qimage to
get the upsampling and compositing. I just checked-you can reopen a
file in PS and continue working on it.

Another way to get into S-spline that may be cheaper: Panotools and
PTGui. It has spline-16 and spline-32  for pano creation, but I once
inquired and yes, it is possible to input a single image and
interpolate it up. Never tried it, however, so I don't know how
clunky it might or might not be.


Steve Karafyllakis







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Peter Marshall

Hi,

As I understand it, the maths behind GF is published but patented 
(rather than a trade secret)..

I compared GF and most of the other available methods practically 
several years ago. At the time almost anything was an improvement on the 
standard Photoshop bicubic for most images.  Many programmes have a 
decent version of the Lanczos method that is almost always better than 
both GF and bicubic for upsizing photos.

However I found that the best and most convenient method for upsizing 
batches of images was to use QImage, which will of course output tiff 
files. It does implement other methods, but I found their 'pyramid' 
method gives excellent results and so use that.

Regards,

Peter

Peter Marshall
petermarshall@...     +44 (0)1784 456474
_________________________________________________________________
My London Diary	              http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
The Buildings of London etc:  http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
and elsewhere......



Jeff Medkeff wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>John Moody wrote:
>
>
>  
>
>>We sound like a broken record here but...  Qimage..excellent.  CS2 is pretty
>>good as well assuming you are not trying to scale too excessively.
>>    
>>
>
>Since I have a few minutes free, John's comment seems like a good 
>opportunity to talk a little more about splines....
>
>What spline(s) does Qimage implement? According to the website, they 
>support "Lanczos, Vector, and Pyramid" interpolation. Are these the only 
>three? I understand 'vector' and 'pyramid' to be spline classes, which 
>makes it hard to understand exactly what Qimage is claiming. There are 
>good and bad pyramid splines (when it comes to applying them to images, 
>at least), and I expect the same is true of vector splines. Lanczos, 
>however, is a specific way to compute the spline, and it is quite good 
>with a typical photographic image and doesn't do at all poorly on 
>graphics designs with lots of smooth lines, either. I'm also a little 
>unclear on whether Qimage will allow you to open a TIFF, compute its 
>spline, and save it back as a TIFF for more work in Photoshop, or 
>whether it is a print output tool only.
>
>Photoshop is strictly 18th and 19th century in terms of its spline 
>support. And I mean that quite literally - the math behind all three of 
>their methods is at minimum well over a century out of date. The three 
>methods are bicubic, bilinear, and nearest neighbor. Bicubic is an 
>excellent way to undersample, but is a rather problematical algorithm 
>for oversampling - more on this in a moment. Bilinear is something of a 
>special-case spline, not usually appropriate for upsampling photographs. 
>And nearest neighbor is a blunt instrument that I think I independently 
>invented when I was 16 for interpolating values from Cepheid light 
>curves on an Atari 400 in CPM/BASIC. It is possible this spline was 
>invented prior to the year 1500. You don't want to go there. Photoshop 
>is in pretty serious need of spline improvement.
>
>I think it is still true that Genuine Fractals is proprietary (hence my 
>previous reference to "mystery math"). If so, nobody really knows what 
>it does. I do agree with another poster that GF is almost always better 
>than bicubic for oversampling, especially at certain ratios where 
>bicubic tends to resonate.
>
>Photozoom Pro supports the S-spline, Lanczos, Hermite, Bell, Mitchell, 
>Catmull-Rom, B, Nearest-Neighbor, Bicubic, and Bilinear splines. I can't 
>say my experience is extensive with most of these.
>
>Part of the "problem" with some splines is that they are either patented 
>(for example, S and B) and rarely or never licensed, or they are trade 
>secrets (for example, Genuine Fractals). Also, spline computation is a 
>very fast-moving area of math these days. All this accounts for the 
>fragmentation of the spline market and the reason there are a dozen 
>tools out there. However, the patents also mean you can go read all 
>about the method, sometimes including the math.
>
>S spline is particularly interesting in this respect. It avoids aliasing 
>entirely, as far as I can tell (actually, I think it would alias at 
>ridiculously high frequency proportions, well beyond what would ever be 
>encountered in real life). The technique does not make any changes to 
>the proportional tonality of the image (some other interpolations, but 
>by no means all, do). It almost fully preserves, but does not enhance, 
>acutance (this avoids the excessive shadowing along tonal boundaries, 
>similar to overusing USM, that some splines introduce). Mathematically, 
>the image coming out of s spline has bulk properties (acutance, edge 
>sharpness, histogram) nearly identical to the original.
>
> From my experience with it, I think the S spline is currently the gold 
>standard against which all other methods of computing a spline should be 
>compared. It can be used pretty effectively at any point in the 
>workflow, including (I believe, somewhat heretically) being applied 
>after sharpening if you are using something other than USM. In the 
>spirit of making a meaningful comparison to S, I'll say:
>
>Lanczos: comes fairly close to S, tending to introduce certain artifacts 
>on medium-contrast boundaries but doing very well with sharp graphic 
>design edges and not bad at all on most photographs. Does not preserve 
>image acutance as well as S, but it is a small difference. If you have a 
>tool that does Lanczos, you probably don't need to move to a tool that 
>has S.
>
>Genuine Fractals: notably inferior to S based on my experiences a few 
>years back. It fails to preserve acutance as well as S or Lanczos, and 
>bulk tonality changes can result in images with multiple high contrast 
>boundaries. However, it is far better than Bicubic.
>
>Bicubic: really, really stinks compared to S, Lanczos, and GF. It 
>aliases, resonates, and introduces several different kinds of artifacts 
>including one which appears similar to noise, and another which is 
>similar to a ghost image of brightly toned image elements. It also fails 
>to preserve image acutance, doing far worse than GF in this respect.
>
>I'd be curious to hear what people have thought about Lanczos or GF in 
>comparison to algorithms such as Qimage's Pyramid and Vector, and the 
>T-spline (if anyone is using it). Also, I'm perfectly open to being told 
>my impressions of the four splines above are wrong - there are some 
>unavoidable mathematical *facts* about all of them, and I really like 
>dealing in facts; but their application is aesthetic in this context, 
>and that makes all the difference. I'm not married to my spline by any 
>means.
>
>  
>

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> 
wrote:
...
> Another way to get into S-spline that may be cheaper: Panotools and 
> PTGui... Never tried it, however, so I don't know how 
> clunky it might or might not be.

I tried it a few times, and it is quite clunky. However one can't really complain considering the 
price. If I recall you had to go through a large and specific canvas size increase, then run the 
scaler. I did not see a big advantage, but may not have had the right kind of images to show 
it's capability.
Regarding Photozoom Pro, I did beta test it. I thought it was good, and the various options 
and gui seemed very good.
However, when testing all of these things, I'd sugeest looking at tonal loss as well, which 
hasn't been discussed. If I recall, I was able to make Photozoom Pro toss out the majority of 
levels in a gray file, very bad. But it might have been an unusual action, like a downsize.

You gotta keep your eyes on every possible donwside!!!

Tyler

RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Paul Roark

The dpreview article mentioned below may have been where I saw a series of
images that compared the various methods.  I really could not see
significant difference among the top half of the approaches, which included
GF.  But, as mentioned before, the nature of the image makes a difference.

I use GF to up-sample images where I must.  It seems to avoid stair-stepping
and preserve sharp edges reasonably well. No doubt the state of the art has
advanced now; I have not tried s-spline but have seen dramatic comparisons
to bi-cubic.  

My conclusion, however, is that these programs are just marginal
improvements to images that really needed to start as higher resolution
files in the first place.  There is no magic here and no substitute for good
initial information capture and scanning.  The programs cannot, in my
experience, manufacture fine detail that looks real.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> brucenorikane
> Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 5:53 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals
> 
> "john dean" <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> ...
> > It certainly would be nice to take the same file and res it up
> > different ways to do a comparison test. I'll be glad to do the Miranda
> > test of it and or PSCS2.
> 
> there was a great thread on DPReview that compared interpolated
> images.   The images were in the thread.  People discussed and voted
> on their favorites. The voting was not unaminous, but Qimage's vector
> (test was before pyramid availability) and GF seemed to score highest.
> the thread is still there, but the images seem to have disappeared:
> 
> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=7642362
> 
> There is a followup posted by Qimage's Mike Chaney that compares his
> newer pyramid interpolation to several others:
> 
> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=7642362
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
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> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by John Moody

Paul's last point is right-on, of course.  After seeing one of Tyler's
prints, it makes me think about pulling out the old 6x9, but then I remember
already having too little free time.
The only time I fret over this interpolation stuff is when I want to control
the pixilation rather than let the RIP do it.  Large interpolations should
have no significant sharpening done prior to upsizing, IMO, and addresses
Tyler's point of tonality.  That is the hardest part for me, sharpening
after upsizing.

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul Roark
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 10:48 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

The dpreview article mentioned below may have been where I saw a series of
images that compared the various methods.  I really could not see
significant difference among the top half of the approaches, which included
GF.  But, as mentioned before, the nature of the image makes a difference.

I use GF to up-sample images where I must.  It seems to avoid stair-stepping
and preserve sharp edges reasonably well. No doubt the state of the art has
advanced now; I have not tried s-spline but have seen dramatic comparisons
to bi-cubic.

My conclusion, however, is that these programs are just marginal
improvements to images that really needed to start as higher resolution
files in the first place.  There is no magic here and no substitute for good
initial information capture and scanning.  The programs cannot, in my
experience, manufacture fine detail that looks real.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Steve Kale

Is this the Shortcut Photozoom product?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Jeff Medkeff <medkeff@...>


> I think the S spline is currently the gold
> standard against which all other methods of computing a spline should be
> compared.

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Richard Corbett

This constant reference to "Genuine" Fractals would suggest to me that there 
must be some non genuine fractals somewhere or perhaps some fake fractals 
exist.

Could we possible have some enlightenment on this fractals issue, by which I 
mean is the genuine article more valuable than other types of fractal, are 
the genuine ones better looking, longer lasting, higher quality. Do they 
accrue in value over a period of time and if that be the case, do people 
collect them and how does one recognise a Genuine Fractal from a fake 
version.

This is most an urgent "need-to-know" matter to yours truly.

Richard
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals


---
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Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Jeff Medkeff

Steven Karafyllakis wrote:


Steve, thanks for your answer on Qimage. I'll add this to my list of 
interpolation options.


> Another way to get into S-spline that may be cheaper: Panotools and 
> PTGui. It has spline-16 and spline-32...

Spline-16 and spline-32 are cubic splines, and not the same as s spline. 
Panotools does not support s spline in any version that I'm familiar 
with. A pity, too; it would be really nice if it did.

The PT releases that I'm familiar with have some mix of poly 3, spline 
16, spline 36, sinc 256, spline 64, bilinear, nearest neighbor, and 
sinc1024. Poly 3 and Spline 16, 36, and 64 are all cubic splines. 
Sinc256 and sinc1024 are Lanczos splines and I'd guess they are the best 
place to start for resizing in PT.


Paul Roark wrote:

> My conclusion, however, is that these programs are just marginal
> improvements to images that really needed to start as higher resolution
> files in the first place.

I think the only real use of interpolation software for increasing photo 
size is to prevent the print driver or RIP from doing it automagically, 
in an uncontrolled and possibly undesirable way, on its own. Exhibit A 
would be my C86 which still prints bands at certain input resolutions 
(including some fairly high ones); increasing the resolution using any 
method and then sending the file to the printer solves this problem. 
Exhibit B would be any very large print from an undersampled original, 
in which increasing resolution allows you to dodge some 
pixelation-related artifacts. As far as adding detail, you are spot on: 
upsampling doesn't add information to an image; it can only destroy it.


Steve Kale wrote:

> Is this the Shortcut Photozoom product?

Yes, I think they have what is considered to be the best (only?) 
commercial implementation of an s spline for photograph resampling, 
outside of a few scientific packages.


Peter Marshall wrote:

> As I understand it, the maths behind GF is published but patented 
> (rather than a trade secret).

That could be. I based my belief about it being a trade secret on my 
inability to find a relevant patent, combined with several reviewers' 
statements to the effect that GF contains "proprietary algorithms." 
Either way, at the present time I've never seen the math and have no 
idea how GF does what it does. If someone has the software, is a patent 
number listed on the box or in the help file?

-- 
Jeff Medkeff
Eagle River, Alaska

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Steve Kale

Interesting that when it came to the Mac platform 4 years ago this month it
was priced at USD61.  Now they are flogging it at Euro 129 (USD 157). That's
some hyperinflation! Either (a) people must really think it is great or (b)
not enough people think it is great and the company is pinning its hopes on
a fat price to a few...  IS it really that much better than stepping (the
old 10% method) in CS2 with bicubic smoother?

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-18 by Steve Kale

I was referring to Shortcut Photozoom
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>

> 
> Interesting that when it came to the Mac platform 4 years ago this month it
> was priced at USD61.  Now they are flogging it at Euro 129 (USD 157). That's
> some hyperinflation! Either (a) people must really think it is great or (b)
> not enough people think it is great and the company is pinning its hopes on
> a fat price to a few...  IS it really that much better than stepping (the
> old 10% method) in CS2 with bicubic smoother?

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-19 by john dean

The term Genuine Fractal is an oxymoron. A fractal is faked piece of
data created by algorithms in a computer, an illusion of something
real. So the term essentially translates to genuine illusion.   




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Corbett"
<richard@r...> wrote:
> This constant reference to "Genuine" Fractals would suggest to me
that there 
> must be some non genuine fractals somewhere or perhaps some fake
fractals 
> exist.
> 
> Could we possible have some enlightenment on this fractals issue, by
which I 
> mean is the genuine article more valuable than other types of
fractal, are 
> the genuine ones better looking, longer lasting, higher quality. Do
they 
> accrue in value over a period of time and if that be the case, do
people 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> collect them and how does one recognise a Genuine Fractal from a fake 
> version.
> 
> This is most an urgent "need-to-know" matter to yours truly.
> 
> Richard
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@b...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 8:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals
> 
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
> to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are






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Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-19 by Richard Corbett

There's a contradiction here mes ami' because an illusion cannot by 
definition be genuine - indeed it is a fake.

Richard
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals


The term Genuine Fractal is an oxymoron. A fractal is faked piece of
data created by algorithms in a computer, an illusion of something
real. So the term essentially translates to genuine illusion.




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Corbett"
<richard@r...> wrote:
> This constant reference to "Genuine" Fractals would suggest to me
that there
> must be some non genuine fractals somewhere or perhaps some fake
fractals
> exist.
>
> Could we possible have some enlightenment on this fractals issue, by
which I
> mean is the genuine article more valuable than other types of
fractal, are
> the genuine ones better looking, longer lasting, higher quality. Do
they
> accrue in value over a period of time and if that be the case, do
people
> collect them and how does one recognise a Genuine Fractal from a fake
> version.
>
> This is most an urgent "need-to-know" matter to yours truly.
>
> Richard
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@b...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 8:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals
>
>
> ---
> [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility
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Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-19 by john dean

Agreed, it is a fake, but it does have a nice surrealist connotation
doesn't it.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Corbett"
<richard@r...> wrote:
> There's a contradiction here mes ami' because an illusion cannot by 
> definition be genuine - indeed it is a fake.
> 
> Richard
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@y...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals
> 
> 
> The term Genuine Fractal is an oxymoron. A fractal is faked piece of
> data created by algorithms in a computer, an illusion of something
> real. So the term essentially translates to genuine illusion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Corbett"
> <richard@r...> wrote:
> > This constant reference to "Genuine" Fractals would suggest to me
> that there
> > must be some non genuine fractals somewhere or perhaps some fake
> fractals
> > exist.
> >
> > Could we possible have some enlightenment on this fractals issue, by
> which I
> > mean is the genuine article more valuable than other types of
> fractal, are
> > the genuine ones better looking, longer lasting, higher quality. Do
> they
> > accrue in value over a period of time and if that be the case, do
> people
> > collect them and how does one recognise a Genuine Fractal from a fake
> > version.
> >
> > This is most an urgent "need-to-know" matter to yours truly.
> >
> > Richard
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@b...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 8:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals
> >
> >
> > ---
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> > to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > currently using to read this email. ]
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
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Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-19 by Richard Corbett

No! I believe the name should be changed, in order to remove any chance that 
an innocent bystander might come to harm

In addition I also believe that any and all users of this confoundedly 
deceitfull prog should be made to print a warning notice on all their 
exhibition prints to the effect that, and here I quote....

"This print has been produced using an image faking software product, and 
the buyer should be aware that any indication of  quality of detail and 
smoothness of tonal transition should not in any way shape or form be 
considered to represent that level of quality that existed on the original 
photographic image or in the original scene".....end of quote

By golly, lets get back to the basics of  honesty, decency and truth - 
that's what I say.

Richard
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals


Agreed, it is a fake, but it does have a nice surrealist connotation
doesn't it.



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Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-19 by lulalake_1999

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard 
Corbett" <richard@r...> wrote:
> No! I believe the name should be changed, in order to remove any 
chance that 
> an innocent bystander might come to harm
> 
> In addition I also believe that any and all users of this 
confoundedly 
> deceitfull prog should be made to print a warning notice on all 
their 
> exhibition prints to the effect that, and here I quote....
> 
> "This print has been produced using an image faking software 
product, and 
> the buyer should be aware that any indication of  quality of detail 
and 
> smoothness of tonal transition should not in any way shape or form 
be 
> considered to represent that level of quality that existed on the 
original 
> photographic image or in the original scene".....end of quote
> 
> By golly, lets get back to the basics of  honesty, decency and 
truth - 
> that's what I say.
> 
> Richard
> 
LOL!

John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-20 by Pacific New Media

John Sexton wrote recently in his newsletter:

"To date I have never seen a black and white print from the digital domain
that rivals the sensuous and tactile qualities of a well-crafted black and
white silver print."

There were many this kind of comments two or three years ago but not a lot
lately, especially from a heavy weight b&w printer. Anyone coming from both
domains (analog and digital) care to share some experiences and observations
on this?

After so many years of hard work of many talented people, and companies like
Epson and HP, is today's best digital print still lack of those "sensuous
and tactile qualities of a well-crafted black and white silver print"?

Thanks,
- philip


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-20 by Clayton Jones

Hello Phillip,

>John Sexton wrote recently...

>..is today's best digital print still lack of those "sensuous
>and tactile qualities of a well-crafted black and white silver 
>print"?

This subject has been beat to death more times than I can count, but
the consensus seems to be that they are simply two different mediums
and they will never look exactly alike, and each has its own intrinsic
beauty.  Many accomplished fine art photographers have switched and
report that their prints are "better" (whatever that means to them). 
Many others are so attuned to the look and feel of emulsion prints
that no digitial print will ever meet their expectations.  Both are
right.  So choose your weapon and get to work <g>.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-20 by Andre

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Pacific New
Media" <panmedia@c...> wrote:
> John Sexton wrote recently in his newsletter:
> 
> "To date I have never seen a black and white print from the digital
domain
> that rivals the sensuous and tactile qualities of a well-crafted
black and
> white silver print."
> 
Well, he may be right but it really doesnt matter.

Countless photographers have closed down their darkroom and except for
a few, are never ever going back to traditional b&w printing.

Digital B&W printing has come a long way in the past 4-5 years and
progress is still being made. But there's room for both system and its
photography's gain.

Cheers,
André

Re: John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-20 by Michael B. Askew

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andre" 
<am1000@v...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Pacific New
> Media" <panmedia@c...> wrote:
> > John Sexton wrote recently in his newsletter:
> > 
> > "To date I have never seen a black and white print from the 
digital
> domain
> > that rivals the sensuous and tactile qualities of a well-crafted
> black and
> > white silver print."
> > 
> Well, he may be right but it really doesnt matter.
> 
> Countless photographers have closed down their darkroom and except 
for
> a few, are never ever going back to traditional b&w printing.
> 
> Digital B&W printing has come a long way in the past 4-5 years and
> progress is still being made. But there's room for both system and 
its
> photography's gain.
> 
> Cheers,
> André

It might be worth remembering that John gets sponsorship from Kodak, 
has made a lot of his fame and income supporting film products, and 
just might be nudged by this relationship with Kodak to try and keep 
film products in demand.  Not a bad thing, just a business.  I'd 
like to see it work, if that's the case, to keep film around, since 
Kodak is abandoning the darkroom for the lightroom, maybe it will 
have some influence.

Re: [Digital BW] John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-20 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

I hate to say this because I've got the utmost repect for John Sexton. 
He is the consumate darkroom printer. There are few in his league when 
it comes to a fine silver gelatin print.

But... follow the money. Sexton's entire career is based on silver 
gelatin. The workshops he teaches are about silver gelatin printing. I 
don't recall seeing him offer a workshop on any other topic (he might 
well have, but if so I haven't seen it). He has, for lack of a better 
way to put it, a vested interest in maintaining the idea that the best 
B&W prints come from the process he makes his living with.

I don't blame him for using his influence to support his ideals. But you 
have to recongnise that his is not an unbiased opinion.
--
Bruce Watson


Pacific New Media wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> John Sexton wrote recently in his newsletter:
>
> "To date I have never seen a black and white print from the digital domain
> that rivals the sensuous and tactile qualities of a well-crafted black and
> white silver print."
>
> There were many this kind of comments two or three years ago but not a lot
> lately, especially from a heavy weight b&w printer. Anyone coming from 
> both
> domains (analog and digital) care to share some experiences and 
> observations
> on this?
>
> After so many years of hard work of many talented people, and 
> companies like
> Epson and HP, is today's best digital print still lack of those "sensuous
> and tactile qualities of a well-crafted black and white silver print"?
>
> Thanks,
> - philip
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-20 by john dean

He is of a generation that grew up and perfected something very fine and beautiful. But 
history moves on and that thing belongs to the 19th century. You can't always teach an old 
dog new tricks, and sometime he likes the tricks he already has learned so well and is not 
about to start over when there is no reason to do so.





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I hate to say this because I've got the utmost repect for John Sexton. 
> He is the consumate darkroom printer. There are few in his league when 
> it comes to a fine silver gelatin print.
> 
> But... follow the money. Sexton's entire career is based on silver 
> gelatin. The workshops he teaches are about silver gelatin printing. I 
> don't recall seeing him offer a workshop on any other topic (he might 
> well have, but if so I haven't seen it). He has, for lack of a better 
> way to put it, a vested interest in maintaining the idea that the best 
> B&W prints come from the process he makes his living with.
> 
> I don't blame him for using his influence to support his ideals. But you 
> have to recongnise that his is not an unbiased opinion.
> --
> Bruce Watson
> 
> 
> Pacific New Media wrote:
> 
> > John Sexton wrote recently in his newsletter:
> >
> > "To date I have never seen a black and white print from the digital domain
> > that rivals the sensuous and tactile qualities of a well-crafted black and
> > white silver print."
> >
> > There were many this kind of comments two or three years ago but not a lot
> > lately, especially from a heavy weight b&w printer. Anyone coming from 
> > both
> > domains (analog and digital) care to share some experiences and 
> > observations
> > on this?
> >
> > After so many years of hard work of many talented people, and 
> > companies like
> > Epson and HP, is today's best digital print still lack of those "sensuous
> > and tactile qualities of a well-crafted black and white silver print"?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > - philip
> >
> >

Re: John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-20 by sandersm@aol.com

Agreed.   Inkjet technology, once you've found the sweet spot, is almost 
effortless to print.   Darkroom work is much more laborious, and the results lack 
the inkjet's precision.   And yet I have gone backward, and returned to the 
darkroom after two years with inkjets.   Why?   I prefer the look and feel of a 
silver gelatin print.   But there were two big reasons beyond that.   One:   
I'm shooting large format film, and I never felt true to the integrity of my 
chosen medium when I scanned and printed digitally -- an emotional connection to 
the process.   Two:   I have come to appreciate that one strength of digital 
printing is also its weakness -- the ability to manipulate the image down to 
the pixel.   I prefer to surrender myself to the discipline that the materials 
and the process impose on darkroom printing.   By the end of a darkroom 
session, my print might not be exactly as I had intended it, but I find that what I 
make pleases me none the less because the materials drove me to another place.

I realize these are irrational, emotional, aesthetic reasons.   I realize, 
too, that most of the people on this list do not find them persuasive.   Still, 
they have taken me back to a place that resonates for me, that fixes me in a 
tradition that is over a century old.   I like that.

Sanders McNew
www.mcnew.net



In a message dated 8/20/05 1:35:24 AM, Clayton writes:


> This subject has been beat to death more times than I can count, but
> the consensus seems to be that they are simply two different mediums
> and they will never look exactly alike, and each has its own intrinsic
> beauty.  Many accomplished fine art photographers have switched and
> report that their prints are "better" (whatever that means to them).
> Many others are so attuned to the look and feel of emulsion prints
> that no digitial print will ever meet their expectations.  Both are
> right.  So choose your weapon and get to work <g>.
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-20 by T

I have to agree with John Sexton's comments having spent many years photographing and realizing the results of my efforts in the darkroom.  The results I have achieved with injet are not as rewarding to me.   I have read so many posts in this group regarding the difficulty of achieving a satisfactory b&w print with injet technology. Some of the recent posts referring to John's comment understand him and others just don't get it!!    While it is true the major manufacturers are getting into the newer techonology and putting the "old" aside unfortunately. There is sitll a glimmer of light because there are others coming along to take their place.  Therefore those of us who find more satisfaction doing our photography the "old-fashioned" way can take heart that we will be able to continue. If your choice is digital, more power to you!  I am not ready at this juncture to join the "more pixels" race.  My old MF camera continues to "chug" along giving me beautiful transparencies and
 negatives. And I don't have the "I'll fix it in photoshop" mentality yet!! ..:-)
 
T





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-20 by Ken Carney

My only experience with John is taking a printing class from him.  He is
indeed a fine printer and photographer, and I think he's just stating the
obvious.  If "somehow" we could get a print out of those inkjets on paper
that looked and felt exactly like a gelatin silver print (say the old
air-dried Oriental Seagull graded papers, not that plastic RC crap), but
with the advantage of digital post-production, I would guess that a large
number of people on this list would ditch the PhotoRag et al.  It's just a
balance.  I like my inkjet prints once they are behind glass (after the
memory of the Arnold Newman and Brett Weston exhibits I saw this week fades
a little...), especially with the bonus of closing the darkroom. 

 --Ken
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of hogarth@...
> Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 9:54 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] John Sexton's comment on B&W print
> 
> I hate to say this because I've got the utmost repect for 
> John Sexton. 
> He is the consumate darkroom printer. There are few in his 
> league when it comes to a fine silver gelatin print.
> 
> But... follow the money. Sexton's entire career is based on 
> silver gelatin. The workshops he teaches are about silver 
> gelatin printing. I don't recall seeing him offer a workshop 
> on any other topic (he might well have, but if so I haven't 
> seen it). He has, for lack of a better way to put it, a 
> vested interest in maintaining the idea that the best B&W 
> prints come from the process he makes his living with.
> 
> I don't blame him for using his influence to support his 
> ideals. But you have to recongnise that his is not an 
> unbiased opinion.

Re: John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-20 by photoian@comcast.net

Dan Burkholder comes to mind.

Ian



Message: 19        
   Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:27:50 -0000
Show quoted textHide quoted text
   From: "john dean" <deanwork2003@...>
Subject: Re: John Sexton's comment on B&W print

Silver is at the end of its line and the new sequence of digital
capture and inkjet is just at the beginning of its development. I also
think a huge percentage, though certainly not all, of the complaints
about inkjet monochrome are from substandard scans. And with more use
of average quality digital 35mm slrs that is only going to increase.

Now you can have an interesting merger of silver with Photoshop by
having very high quality large format negs output directly from
digital files and then contact printing them. Does anyone know of a
really good photographer who is doing this regularly? It certainly
isn't cheap but once you have that well made negative it could be a
lot easier for localized tonal control than working with your hands
within a one minute or less enlarger exposure and you only have to
have the negative made once. Subsequent prints could be a breeze.

I am going to be looking into these high-end enlarged negs this fall
for use with platinum. I think it is an under rated area of inquiry.
The digital+platinum or digital+silver methodology has a rich
potential worth pursuing.There is just not enough time in this world
to do it all.I'm surprise we don't have someone on this list who is
only doing that.

John 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-20 by Tom OConnell

I imagine that John Sexton wrote his comments on a typewriter... I'm 
sure it was the very BEST typewriter...

There is little doubt he is at the top of the craft of wet darkroom 
printing... and that what is being done now IS THE TOP. When was the 
last time you saw a significant innovation and quality enhancement in 
the darkroom? When did you last see a digital improvement???

John it at the top of a technology that will soon be valued for it's 
scarcity not unique quality. Photography is undergoing a change as 
important as the move from glass plates to film. If you don't embrace  
change, it will roll over you. period.

cheers,

Tom O'Connell

Re: [Digital BW] Re: John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-20 by Scott McLoughlin

Tom OConnell wrote:

important as the move from glass plates to film. If you don't embrace 
change, it will roll over you. period.

-----------
Um, that's simply not true. Not all change is good, and while there
are definitely events that represent real progress according to strictly
defined and measurable quality criteria, there is no necessary overall
historically progressive force that we are compelled to embrace.

Even in the technology industry, read Clayton Christiansen (HBS) on
the change in quality criteria as one technology succeeds the next. Newer
technologies (he studied the disk drive industry over a few decades) are
rarely simple straight forward wholesale improvements over former
technologies.

I remember back in the late '80s reading that one of the really hot Sci
Fi writers back then, William Gibson, lived a pretty low tech life well
outside of Vancouver and typed his novels on a typewriter. Go figure.

One of the cooler exhibits I saw this past year was Sally Mann's "What
Remains" down at the Corcoran in DC.  Lovely, eerie stuff shot on glass
plates. Wasn't "better" for using old technology, but neither are the
digi snap shooters' work "better" for using the latest gadgets.

I'm a weekend warrior guitar player, and the guitars, amplifiers and even
cabling of  decades past is highly sought after by those who can afford it.
Many, many musicians simply prefer the tones and build of the older
musical (guitar) tools and technology. Similarly, new instruments built
to the same "spec" as the older gear provides for a lively boutique
industry.

If you want to shoot digital (I do), go for it. But it's not like the Nazi's
are coming compelling you to keep up with consumer marketing
trends. Thank God!   If you want to shoot film (I do as well), then keep
shooting film.  As for printing, the same.

Just do what floats your boat, and have fun!

Scott

Re: [Digital BW] Re: John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-21 by Richard Sintchak

"I have read so many posts in this group regarding the difficulty of 
achieving a satisfactory b&w print with injet technology"
 Yeah, like it's so easy with traditional darkroom. Until inkjet I rarely 
saw any good B&W prints from anyone but the pros. Sad thing was I saw many 
who thought they were good with the traditional darkroom who were awful.
 Richard


 On 8/20/05, T <griller1_99@...> wrote: 
> 
> I have to agree with John Sexton's comments having spent many years 
> photographing and realizing the results of my efforts in the darkroom. The 
> results I have achieved with injet are not as rewarding to me. I have read 
> so many posts in this group regarding the difficulty of achieving a 
> satisfactory b&w print with injet technology. Some of the recent posts 
> referring to John's comment understand him and others just don't get it!! 
> While it is true the major manufacturers are getting into the newer 
> techonology and putting the "old" aside unfortunately. There is sitll a 
> glimmer of light because there are others coming along to take their place. 
> Therefore those of us who find more satisfaction doing our photography the 
> "old-fashioned" way can take heart that we will be able to continue. If your 
> choice is digital, more power to you! I am not ready at this juncture to 
> join the "more pixels" race. My old MF camera continues to "chug" along 
> giving me beautiful transparencies and
> negatives. And I don't have the "I'll fix it in photoshop" mentality yet!! 
> ..:-)
> 
> T
> 
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-21 by btvarner

I have been following this thread with great interest & decided to do 
a little test myself.  I must say that the results seem to be the 
opposite of what most here seem to have found.

I down loaded & installed the latest demo versions for both Qimage & 
Shortcut Photozoom Pro then did a comparison of prints from the same 
image.  Unless someone can tell me what I might have done wrong, my 
results indicate that neither product produces a better image what I 
am already doing.  Follow and see:

Test images produced by all three products (Qimage, Photozoom, 
Photoshop) were printed in color (I did not want to introduce another 
variable into the mix, aka QTR) using my Epson 2200 and OEM inks.  
Also note that the Raw image I picked was from a Canon 10D & 12x18 is 
about the absolute maximum size from this camera on my Epson 2200.

My current workflow in Photoshop CS2:
Canon Raw to Tiff,
Applied initial Capture sharpening using Photokit Sharpener Pro Plug-
in,
Crop as desired,
Create adjustment layers or layer masks as required,
Adjustments to Levels, Curves, Hue/Saturation, Color Balance, etc

[At this point I saved the image to four files, one for each products 
print]
Re-sampled 1st image to 12x18 at a resolution of 360 in Photoshop 
using bicubic,
Applied creative sharpening using Photokit Sharpener Pro,
Printed using "SP220 EnhancedMatt 2880PK.icc" printer profile,
All print driver corrections turned off

Qimage workflow:
Opened 2nd image from above in Qimage,
Re-sampled image to 12x18 apparently at 720 resolution using Pyramid,
Saved to another file & closed Qimage,
Opened this Pyramid re-sampled image in Photoshop,
Applied Creative Sharpening using Photokit Sharpener Pro,
Saved file & again opened in Qimage,
Selected this image & printed,
took nearly 1 hour for Qimage to do its thing & for the data to 
spool!!!!!!
Sharpening in Qimage appeared to be off,
This print was wayyyyyy over sharpened, so

.
Picked the 3rd image in Qimage and just resized as above & printed.

Photozoom workflow:
Opened 4th image from above I Photozoom,
Re-sampled image to 12x18 apparently at 720 resolution using S-spine,
Left Photozoom Unsharp Mask on as re-sampled image appeared to be way 
to blurry,
Printed.

Results of the four 12x18 prints:
Photoshop print – Best by far.  Sharp & clear.  Admittedly could
be sharper in some areas of the image but normally I can go back into 
Photoshop and re-apply Creative Sharpening using Photokit Sharpener 
Pro to just that area & improve image.

Qimage print – 1st Qimage print looked absolutely phony because
of over sharpening.  Apparently you cannot apply your own sharpening 
in another tool and then go back & print in Qimage and obtain the 
correct sharpening.  2nd Qimage print.  Sharper in certain areas of 
the image, but still over sharp in others.  Enough that the image did 
not look real.

Photozoom – Image was not nearly as sharp as either of the other 
two.  I attempted to sharpen based on the products previews of my 
image but no mater how sharp I attempted to make the image on screen, 
it did not look sharp.  I settled on about half way up for the 
sharpening settings in Photozoom.

So, am I way off base here?  Just not using Qimage & Photozoom 
correctly?  I know I am new to both products but I do not see even a 
savings in time from using these tools.

Puzzled,
Bruce Varner
http://brucevarner.com/


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> The dpreview article mentioned below may have been where I saw a 
series of
> images that compared the various methods.  I really could not see
> significant difference among the top half of the approaches, which 
included
> GF.  But, as mentioned before, the nature of the image makes a 
difference.
> 
> I use GF to up-sample images where I must.  It seems to avoid stair-
stepping
> and preserve sharp edges reasonably well. No doubt the state of the 
art has
> advanced now; I have not tried s-spline but have seen dramatic 
comparisons
> to bi-cubic.  
> 
> My conclusion, however, is that these programs are just marginal
> improvements to images that really needed to start as higher 
resolution
> files in the first place.  There is no magic here and no substitute 
for good
> initial information capture and scanning.  The programs cannot, in 
my
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> experience, manufacture fine detail that looks real.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Genuine Fractals

2005-08-21 by kenstrain2000

> So, am I way off base here?  Just not using Qimage & Photozoom 
> correctly?  I know I am new to both products but I do not see even
a 
> savings in time from using these tools.
> 
Bruce,
you've made your prints and come to your own judgement on the prints
to your own aesthetic standards.  Is there a better approach than
that? 

Although I use other sofware, I would be surprised if Adobe left
Photoshop so incomplete as to be unable to do this task more than
adequately.  It is a common task.

Ken

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-21 by brucenorikane

You did nothing wrong, that's a good practical test.  

It does not really stress interpolation routines taking a 6 mpixel
image up to 12x18 on matte paper, though.  That's about 166 dpi of
original pixel content, so the interpolation only needed to get
another 40 to 80 dpi to get a photo quality image on matte paper.  The
dithering in the Epson driver plus the matte surface do an excellent
job of masking artifact in normal photo images.

I would not expect to see much difference in any of those methods
unless you use much more enlargement.  You might see more difference
on a sharper media like a glossy.

Another way to look at it.  Your 6 megapixel 10d images print at 12x18
on matte paper.  You may be able to get much bigger images out them
with great interpolation.  Depends on the image.

 "btvarner" <bthomasv@c...> wrote:
> I have been following this thread with great interest & decided to do 
> a little test myself.  
...
> Also note that the Raw image I picked was from a Canon 10D & 
...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Re-sampled 1st image to 12x18 at a resolution of 360 in Photoshop 
> using bicubic,
> Applied creative sharpening using Photokit Sharpener Pro,
> Printed using "SP220 EnhancedMatt 2880PK.icc" printer profile,
> All print driver corrections turned off

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-08-21 by Peter Marshall

Bruce,

Workflow in QImage consists simply of loading the image into QImage and 
paper to the printer, adding it to the queue and then (assuming you have 
already set up QImage for the printer/paper size/profile) and clicking 
on print. You then leave it to do the job while you do something else.

It automatically resizes to whatever print size you selected, applies 
appropriate sharpening and spools the file. You don't have to worry 
about overall sharpening or the size of the print, once you have set up 
the program for what you want to do.

You only need to keep one print file for each image, whatever size you 
want to print (obviously within reason.) You would apply any 'creative' 
sharpening to that, although usually none is the best setting before saving.

You only need to resize files and save when sending them out for 
printing or stock elsewhere. Normally I wouldn't sharpen these files, as 
the printer should do so appropriately for the printer concerned.

I'm using a slow old PC here from 2001, though it does have a decent 
amount of memory. Typical time between pressing the print button in 
QImage and my printer starting to print a 15x10" print is perhaps 3-10 
minutes, with tiff files normally in the range 17-130Gb. (You can keep 
files in 16 bit if you wish by the way.)

At 15x10" there isn't really a noticeable difference in quality between 
prints from Photoshop or QImage from a 17Mb 8 bit TIFF file, but if you 
want to make larger prints - where interpolation becomes visible in the 
output - then I think the differences you can see on screen do start to 
show.

Regards,

Peter Marshall
petermarshall@...     +44 (0)1784 456474
31 Budebury Rd, STAINES, Middx, TW18 2AZ, UK
_________________________________________________________________
My London Diary	              http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
The Buildings of London etc:  http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
and elsewhere......



btvarner wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>I have been following this thread with great interest & decided to do 
>a little test myself.  I must say that the results seem to be the 
>opposite of what most here seem to have found.
>
>I down loaded & installed the latest demo versions for both Qimage & 
>Shortcut Photozoom Pro then did a comparison of prints from the same 
>image.  Unless someone can tell me what I might have done wrong, my 
>results indicate that neither product produces a better image what I 
>am already doing.  Follow and see:
>
>Test images produced by all three products (Qimage, Photozoom, 
>Photoshop) were printed in color (I did not want to introduce another 
>variable into the mix, aka QTR) using my Epson 2200 and OEM inks.  
>Also note that the Raw image I picked was from a Canon 10D & 12x18 is 
>about the absolute maximum size from this camera on my Epson 2200.
>
>My current workflow in Photoshop CS2:
>Canon Raw to Tiff,
>Applied initial Capture sharpening using Photokit Sharpener Pro Plug-
>in,
>Crop as desired,
>Create adjustment layers or layer masks as required,
>Adjustments to Levels, Curves, Hue/Saturation, Color Balance, etc\ufffd
>[At this point I saved the image to four files, one for each products 
>print]
>Re-sampled 1st image to 12x18 at a resolution of 360 in Photoshop 
>using bicubic,
>Applied creative sharpening using Photokit Sharpener Pro,
>Printed using "SP220 EnhancedMatt 2880PK.icc" printer profile,
>All print driver corrections turned off
>
>Qimage workflow:
>Opened 2nd image from above in Qimage,
>Re-sampled image to 12x18 apparently at 720 resolution using Pyramid,
>Saved to another file & closed Qimage,
>Opened this Pyramid re-sampled image in Photoshop,
>Applied Creative Sharpening using Photokit Sharpener Pro,
>Saved file & again opened in Qimage,
>Selected this image & printed,
>took nearly 1 hour for Qimage to do its thing & for the data to 
>spool!!!!!!
>Sharpening in Qimage appeared to be off,
>This print was wayyyyyy over sharpened, so\ufffd\ufffd.
>Picked the 3rd image in Qimage and just resized as above & printed.
>
>Photozoom workflow:
>Opened 4th image from above I Photozoom,
>Re-sampled image to 12x18 apparently at 720 resolution using S-spine,
>Left Photozoom Unsharp Mask on as re-sampled image appeared to be way 
>to blurry,
>Printed.
>
>Results of the four 12x18 prints:
>Photoshop print \ufffd Best by far.  Sharp & clear.  Admittedly could
>be sharper in some areas of the image but normally I can go back into 
>Photoshop and re-apply Creative Sharpening using Photokit Sharpener 
>Pro to just that area & improve image.
>
>Qimage print \ufffd 1st Qimage print looked absolutely phony because
>of over sharpening.  Apparently you cannot apply your own sharpening 
>in another tool and then go back & print in Qimage and obtain the 
>correct sharpening.  2nd Qimage print.  Sharper in certain areas of 
>the image, but still over sharp in others.  Enough that the image did 
>not look real.
>
>Photozoom \ufffd Image was not nearly as sharp as either of the other 
>two.  I attempted to sharpen based on the products previews of my 
>image but no mater how sharp I attempted to make the image on screen, 
>it did not look sharp.  I settled on about half way up for the 
>sharpening settings in Photozoom.
>
>So, am I way off base here?  Just not using Qimage & Photozoom 
>correctly?  I know I am new to both products but I do not see even a 
>savings in time from using these tools.
>
>Puzzled,
>Bruce Varner
>http://brucevarner.com/
>
>  
>
>  
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Genuine Fractals

2005-08-21 by Peter Marshall

It's a matter of record that Adobe didn't respond to this need for 
several versions - up to CS I think. There is a pretty thriving market 
in Adobe plugins that largely exist to fill in the missing or poorly 
implemented areas of Photoshop.

Regards,

Peter

Peter Marshall
petermarshall@...     +44 (0)1784 456474
_________________________________________________________________
My London Diary	              http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
The Buildings of London etc:  http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
and elsewhere......



kenstrain2000 wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>>So, am I way off base here?  Just not using Qimage & Photozoom 
>>correctly?  I know I am new to both products but I do not see even
>>    
>>
>a 
>  
>
>>savings in time from using these tools.
>>
>>    
>>
>Bruce,
>you've made your prints and come to your own judgement on the prints
>to your own aesthetic standards.  Is there a better approach than
>that? 
>
>Although I use other sofware, I would be surprised if Adobe left
>Photoshop so incomplete as to be unable to do this task more than
>adequately.  It is a common task.
>
>Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
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>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
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>
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RE: [Digital BW] Re: John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-21 by Paul Roark

Bruce Barnbaum has an article in the latest (September/October, 2005) Photo
Techniques magazine entitled, "The Future of Traditional Photography."
While he thinks both media will co-exist quite nicely, he does prefer the
traditional approach.  He likes the solitude and process of the darkroom,
and he dislikes what he sees as "instant decisions" that tend to be made
with digital capture -- seeing the image on the LCD, etc. and deleting
images too quickly.

The article struck me as a thoughtful piece rather than a dogmatic reaction
of a silver theologian.

Frankly, my view is that the skills of making a good B&W print are quite
transferable between the wet darkroom and the computer.  Most of the content
of the articles Barnbaum writes about working up a print could be talking
about digital tools rather than the darkroom analogies.  

Digital B&W technology is at a sufficiently high level now that it's the
image and skill/"eye" of the (human) printer that distinguishes the good
ones from the mundane.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-21 by Steve Gledhill

Bruce may have moved on a little from his previous position as
described on his website - http://www.barnbaum.com/thoughts.html  His
article there is at least 2 years old.  I've not seen the article to
which you refer but I have followed his work for many years and know
that he's a master of his chosen medium.  When I first 'went digital'
about four years ago I was quick to turn away from silver printing and
a little too quick to criticise those who couldn't see the 'new way'.
 Now I'm keen to see the best of both worlds - and I have no
preferences as to which is best for the final results, let the
photographer/printer decide.  But I do know that best for me is the
digital darkroom - it's the power I now have to control everything in
the final image that I personally just couldn't achieve in the wet
darkroom.

Steve
http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/

It seems it was written

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Bruce Barnbaum has an article in the latest (September/October,
2005) Photo
> Techniques magazine entitled, "The Future of Traditional Photography."
> While he thinks both media will co-exist quite nicely, he does
prefer the
> traditional approach.  He likes the solitude and process of the
darkroom,
> and he dislikes what he sees as "instant decisions" that tend to be made
> with digital capture -- seeing the image on the LCD, etc. and deleting
> images too quickly.
> 
> The article struck me as a thoughtful piece rather than a dogmatic
reaction
> of a silver theologian.
> 
> Frankly, my view is that the skills of making a good B&W print are quite
> transferable between the wet darkroom and the computer.  Most of the
content
> of the articles Barnbaum writes about working up a print could be
talking
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> about digital tools rather than the darkroom analogies.  
> 
> Digital B&W technology is at a sufficiently high level now that it's the
> image and skill/"eye" of the (human) printer that distinguishes the good
> ones from the mundane.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-21 by Tom OConnell

> -----------
> Um, that's simply not true. Not all change is good, and while there
> are definitely events that represent real progress according to 
strictly


Scott-

You are right. Technology does go down some dead end roads from time 
to time. But the move to digital is much more than an affair with 
SciFi and possible new solutions.

I repeat my query: How many recent improvements can one find in the 
wet darkroom world vs. the almost daily refinements in the digital 
world? From where I sit and watch, the digital progress is 
overwhelming and the days film manufacturing are numbered. It would 
be nice to think both would exist side by side, but economic reality 
will eventually bring a halt to the world of film. Probably the only 
thing keeping it alive today is the hope that the millions of film 
cameras (mostly in closets) will get pulled out for pictures of the 
cousin's wedding or christening...but eventually this will stop. Who 
knows exactly what will end it... remember a couple of years ago, 
there was a product written about (don't know if it actually was ever 
produced) that was a digital "insert" to the film bay of conventional 
cameras...kind of like the cassette insert for iPods <g>. Such a 
product could end film manufacture overnight if it really worked 
well. I haven't seen one, but doesn't Leica now have a digital back 
for it's rangefinder and SLR cameras? 

I'm not anti-film but just don't see why anyone would continue to 
work with it unless you were a John Sexton who is at the top of the 
food chain in terms of quality...for the rest of us, still on the 
learning and improvement curve, why wouldn't we devote our energies 
to the technology and medium that will grow with our skills???

And in the final analysis, isn't that what this forum is all about? 

cheers,

Tom O'Connell

Re: [Digital BW] Re: John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-21 by Eric Ashworth

Hi Tom,

Granted, the film industry will change, but as far as it  
disappearing, I think it's worth noting that as photography has  
developed over the last two centuries, and taken over the role of  
"commercial" painting, the paint industry (fine art applications) has  
continued to exist regardless of economic reality.  The amount of  
paint produced has indeed been drastically reduced over time.  But  
rather than ceasing to exist, paint manufacturers have continued  
doing business by refining their products, raising their prices and  
selling these specialty paints to artists.

For instance, Old Holland Oil paint, which has been producing paint  
since 1664 offers some paint tubes that run $40-$50 for a 40ml tube.   
While that's on the extreme end of things, the point is that they  
have continued to do business for nearly three and a half centuries,  
regardless of the technological advances in the realm of image  
creation.  And, when some paint companies have ceased to exist,  
others have shown up to take their place.  An example of this is  
Gamblin Oil paints.  They are a company that has only been in  
existence for about 25 years.  Yet, they produce some of the most  
sought after, and expensive oil paint produced in North America.

While it is true that digital photography has replaced film to a  
large extent in the consumer market, obviously there are still  
proponents of the traditional processes.  And, to use the comparison  
with painting, while photographs are capable of rendering the most  
refined of details, painters have continued to produce everything  
from portraits to landscapes as they prefer the aesthetic of  
brushwork on a canvas and continue to support their traditional  
processes.  Similarly, just because the digital process allows  
control of individual pixels doesn't mean that there won't be people  
still using cold light enlargers, dodging and burning in darkrooms  
and printing a single image for hours on end to achieve the perfect  
chemically processed, expressive print 200 years from now.  All that  
is required for that to occur is a handful of companies continuing to  
offer their "authentic, traditional materials and equipment," and for  
a few dedicated artists to purchase those products.

To me the most intriguing aspect of these technological advances is  
how the old processes can be integrated into the new ones and vice  
versa, for instance, the use of film to capture the image but then  
using a lightjet printer to produce a 4' x 6' print from 35mm film,  
or taking a digital capture, printing a digital negative and  
producing a chemically processed print, or doing whatever it is that  
all of us are doing.

I think the point is that it all comes down to the subject, the  
artist's eye, his/her aesthetic and  ability to achieve the end  
result he or she prefers.  And, that the analog world (to quote  
Edward) vs. the digital, is essentially a mute point as far as  
whether or not they'll both continue to exist.  In the realm of  
music, digital equipment has clearly taken over but as Edward  
mentioned, analog equipment can still be found, even brand new tube  
amplifiers that go for rather obscene prices.

While this forum is about the digital B&W print, that doesn't change  
the fact that many of the members regularly utilize film to capture  
their images and others have produced their prints via digital  
negatives on analog papers.  IMHO, viva la difference.  Variety  
brings with it, options, and options allow for unique modes of  
expression.  And, I think that the richness of this variety continues  
to drive all of us to greater and greater levels of artistic mastery  
in the realm of B&W printing.  Isn't that what this forum is really  
about?

Best regards,

Eric
www.ericashworth.net



> ... It would
> be nice to think both would exist side by side, but economic reality
> will eventually bring a halt to the world of film. Probably the only
> thing keeping it alive today is the hope that the millions of film
> cameras (mostly in closets) will get pulled out for pictures of the
> cousin's wedding or christening...but eventually this will stop. Who
> knows exactly what will end it... remember a couple of years ago,
> there was a product written about (don't know if it actually was ever
> produced) that was a digital "insert" to the film bay of conventional
> cameras...kind of like the cassette insert for iPods <g>. Such a
> product could end film manufacture overnight if it really worked
> well. I haven't seen one, but doesn't Leica now have a digital back
> for it's rangefinder and SLR cameras?
>
> I'm not anti-film but just don't see why anyone would continue to
> work with it unless you were a John Sexton who is at the top of the
> food chain in terms of quality...for the rest of us, still on the
> learning and improvement curve, why wouldn't we devote our energies
> to the technology and medium that will grow with our skills???
>
> And in the final analysis, isn't that what this forum is all about?
>
> cheers,
>
> Tom O'Connell


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Genuine Fractals

2005-08-22 by kenstrain2000

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Peter Marshall
<petermarshall@c...> wrote:
> It's a matter of record that Adobe didn't respond to this need for 
> several versions - up to CS I think. There is a pretty thriving
market 
Thanks for pointing that out.  I should not have made the assumption
that just because it is (algorithmically) relatively easy to provide a
reasonable method of interpolation that Adobe had perviously done so
before CS. Perhaps processing time was too much of an issue when early
versions of PS were written and it got left out of updates until CS. 

Still my main point was that if the images print well enough for the
photographer the interpolation method was adequate, and that is the
safest way to judge.

Ken

[Digital BW] Re: John Sexton's comment on B&W print

2005-08-22 by Bailey Donnally

> While he thinks both media will co-exist quite nicely, he does 
prefer the
> traditional approach.  He likes the solitude and process of the 
darkroom,
> and he dislikes what he sees as "instant decisions" that tend to be 
made
> with digital capture -- seeing the image on the LCD, etc. and 
deleting
> images too quickly.

It is interesting that Sexton, a photographer I admire greatly, 
thinks that digital techniques lead to "instant decisions" whereas 
(presumably) the darkroom does not.  I like to work on a photo over a 
long period of time.  I come back to images over and over and check 
to see if my initial reactions hold up over time, and see if I get 
new ideas about how to handle it. For example, recently I won best of 
show for an image that I have struggled over for over 25 years before 
I got it to look a way that pleased me.

One of the central things I like about digital photography is that it 
allows me to do this gracefullly.  I can work with an image, set it 
aside for any length of time, then come back to the exact same point 
and continue to evaluate (and modify, if desirable) the image and 
print it in a reproducable way. 

As for deleting, I have just about every image I have shot - good, 
bad, and mediocre - stored away, now in easy-to-store gold CDs.

 
> 
> The article struck me as a thoughtful piece rather than a dogmatic 
reaction
> of a silver theologian.
> 
> Frankly, my view is that the skills of making a good B&W print are 
quite
> transferable between the wet darkroom and the computer.  Most of 
the content
> of the articles Barnbaum writes about working up a print could be 
talking
> about digital tools rather than the darkroom analogies.  

Amen!

Bailey Donnally

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-09-05 by Bob Frost

Paul,

I've always thought 'stair interpolation' is a very peculiar way to 
interpolate an image, and I don't understand how/why it is supposed to work. 
When you upsample an image by 10%, what happens is that the 10th, 20th, 
30th, etc., lines are 'interpolated' and a new line inserted in front of 
each of them, based on that line and the surrounding lines (depending on the 
method of interpolation). When you then do the second step of another 10%, 
the 10th, 20th, 30th, etc lines are again interpolated, the only difference 
being that the original 20th, 30th, etc lines have all got pushed along by 
the insertion of the previous new lines. And so on. Seems a strange way to 
upsample an image!!

Bob Frost.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>
>
> Stair interpolation refers to iteratively computing a spline over and
> over again, usually in fixed proportions, until you get the output size
> you want. For example, if you used bicubic interpolation and increased
> the file size by 10% each time, until you got where you wanted to be,
> that would be stair interpolation. If you used S spline the same way,
> that would also be stair interpolation.

It seems to me that any linear filter applied multiple times is just another
different linear filter, and can be precomputed as such in advance, and
applied in the same amount of time it takes to do any other single filter.
Doing it iteratively seems like the dumb way to do it (if you're writing the
software, that is), and might also build up noise due to accumulated
roundoff errors, especially if computation is done in 8-bit mode.

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-09-05 by Bob Frost

Richard,

If someone experiences an illusion, is it not a 'genuine' illusion, as 
compared to a hypothetical illusion that one has thought about but not 
experienced? ;)

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Corbett" <richard@...-bulldog.com>


There's a contradiction here mes ami' because an illusion cannot by
definition be genuine - indeed it is a fake.

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-09-05 by john dean

I just did one comparison test by upsampling an rgb image of a
landscape composite from 45 megs to 178 megs from a clients 8 bit
file. The first was done with the new Stairstep Interpolation 2
software, the second was done Bicubic Smooth in Photoshop CS2, both
set to 300 dpi. No matter how I finessed the final sharpening of the
final file, the Photoshop interpolation was always superior, both in
regard to sharpness as well as smoothness of the irregular artifacts
present from such a serious upscaling. 

Now I am going to do three or four more tests this week to investigate
this furthur. Whatever they did to improve the Bicubic mechanism in
Photoshop, it is a major improvement. I'm impressed.

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost"
<bob@f...> wrote:
> Paul,
> 
> I've always thought 'stair interpolation' is a very peculiar way to 
> interpolate an image, and I don't understand how/why it is supposed
to work. 
> When you upsample an image by 10%, what happens is that the 10th, 20th, 
> 30th, etc., lines are 'interpolated' and a new line inserted in
front of 
> each of them, based on that line and the surrounding lines
(depending on the 
> method of interpolation). When you then do the second step of
another 10%, 
> the 10th, 20th, 30th, etc lines are again interpolated, the only
difference 
> being that the original 20th, 30th, etc lines have all got pushed
along by 
> the insertion of the previous new lines. And so on. Seems a strange
way to 
> upsample an image!!
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@i...>
> >
> > Stair interpolation refers to iteratively computing a spline over and
> > over again, usually in fixed proportions, until you get the output
size
> > you want. For example, if you used bicubic interpolation and increased
> > the file size by 10% each time, until you got where you wanted to be,
> > that would be stair interpolation. If you used S spline the same way,
> > that would also be stair interpolation.
> 
> It seems to me that any linear filter applied multiple times is just
another
> different linear filter, and can be precomputed as such in advance, and
> applied in the same amount of time it takes to do any other single
filter.
> Doing it iteratively seems like the dumb way to do it (if you're
writing the
> software, that is), and might also build up noise due to accumulated
> roundoff errors, especially if computation is done in 8-bit mode.

RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-09-05 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Bob Frost
>
> I've always thought 'stair interpolation' is a very peculiar way to
> interpolate an image, and I don't understand how/why it is
> supposed to work.
> When you upsample an image by 10%, what happens is that the 10th, 20th,
> 30th, etc., lines are 'interpolated' and a new line inserted in front of
> each of them, based on that line and the surrounding lines
> (depending on the
> method of interpolation). When you then do the second step of
> another 10%,
> the 10th, 20th, 30th, etc lines are again interpolated, the only
> difference
> being that the original 20th, 30th, etc lines have all got pushed
> along by
> the insertion of the previous new lines. And so on. Seems a
> strange way to
> upsample an image!!

That would be strange, but that's not what happens. All pixels are
interpolated. Each pixel in the result maps to some possibly fractional
pixel position in the original, and its value is computed by filtering the
original pixels in that region. Even if an output pixel lines up perfectly
with an input pixel, it is still computed by filtering that input pixel with
its neighbors, so that it won't look different from those pixels that don't
line up. Yes, this does soften the image, by discarding some high spatial
frequencies, but this is often masked by including a bit of high frequency
boost--I think that's what the new "sharpen" option in PS Bicubic is.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-09-05 by john dean

I thought the SHARPEN mode in PSCS2 Bicubic was designed for down
sizing, not upsampling? Right?

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco"
<pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: Bob Frost
> >
> > I've always thought 'stair interpolation' is a very peculiar way to
> > interpolate an image, and I don't understand how/why it is
> > supposed to work.
> > When you upsample an image by 10%, what happens is that the 10th,
20th,
> > 30th, etc., lines are 'interpolated' and a new line inserted in
front of
> > each of them, based on that line and the surrounding lines
> > (depending on the
> > method of interpolation). When you then do the second step of
> > another 10%,
> > the 10th, 20th, 30th, etc lines are again interpolated, the only
> > difference
> > being that the original 20th, 30th, etc lines have all got pushed
> > along by
> > the insertion of the previous new lines. And so on. Seems a
> > strange way to
> > upsample an image!!
> 
> That would be strange, but that's not what happens. All pixels are
> interpolated. Each pixel in the result maps to some possibly fractional
> pixel position in the original, and its value is computed by
filtering the
> original pixels in that region. Even if an output pixel lines up
perfectly
> with an input pixel, it is still computed by filtering that input
pixel with
> its neighbors, so that it won't look different from those pixels
that don't
> line up. Yes, this does soften the image, by discarding some high
spatial
> frequencies, but this is often masked by including a bit of high
frequency
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> boost--I think that's what the new "sharpen" option in PS Bicubic is.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-09-05 by Richard Corbett

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Bob Frost" <bob@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals


Richard,

If someone experiences an illusion, is it not a 'genuine' illusion, as 
compared to a hypothetical illusion that one has thought about but not 
experienced? ;)

No

Richard
---
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to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
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Re: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-09-06 by wwodets

"I'm impressed [with bicubic smoother]."  Me too.

Walt



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> I just did one comparison test by upsampling an rgb image of a
> landscape composite from 45 megs to 178 megs from a clients 8 bit
> file. The first was done with the new Stairstep Interpolation 2
> software, the second was done Bicubic Smooth in Photoshop CS2, both
> set to 300 dpi. No matter how I finessed the final sharpening of the
> final file, the Photoshop interpolation was always superior, both in
> regard to sharpness as well as smoothness of the irregular artifacts
> present from such a serious upscaling. 
> 
> Now I am going to do three or four more tests this week to 
investigate
> this furthur. Whatever they did to improve the Bicubic mechanism in
> Photoshop, it is a major improvement. I'm impressed.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost"
> <bob@f...> wrote:
> > Paul,
> > 
> > I've always thought 'stair interpolation' is a very peculiar way 
to 
> > interpolate an image, and I don't understand how/why it is 
supposed
> to work. 
> > When you upsample an image by 10%, what happens is that the 10th, 
20th, 
> > 30th, etc., lines are 'interpolated' and a new line inserted in
> front of 
> > each of them, based on that line and the surrounding lines
> (depending on the 
> > method of interpolation). When you then do the second step of
> another 10%, 
> > the 10th, 20th, 30th, etc lines are again interpolated, the only
> difference 
> > being that the original 20th, 30th, etc lines have all got pushed
> along by 
> > the insertion of the previous new lines. And so on. Seems a 
strange
> way to 
> > upsample an image!!
> > 
> > Bob Frost.
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@i...>
> > >
> > > Stair interpolation refers to iteratively computing a spline 
over and
> > > over again, usually in fixed proportions, until you get the 
output
> size
> > > you want. For example, if you used bicubic interpolation and 
increased
> > > the file size by 10% each time, until you got where you wanted 
to be,
> > > that would be stair interpolation. If you used S spline the 
same way,
> > > that would also be stair interpolation.
> > 
> > It seems to me that any linear filter applied multiple times is 
just
> another
> > different linear filter, and can be precomputed as such in 
advance, and
> > applied in the same amount of time it takes to do any other single
> filter.
> > Doing it iteratively seems like the dumb way to do it (if you're
> writing the
> > software, that is), and might also build up noise due to 
accumulated
> > roundoff errors, especially if computation is done in 8-bit mode.

RE: [Digital BW] Genuine Fractals

2005-09-06 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: john dean
>
> I thought the SHARPEN mode in PSCS2 Bicubic was designed for down
> sizing, not upsampling? Right?

Maybe so, but the two processes aren't fundamentally different. It's just
the tuning of the filters (in the spatial frequency domain).

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

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