Digital BW, The Print

I would like to confirm that there is some sort of real problem with MIS Inksupply.com.

I have an had an order in process going on 3 weeks. They define in process as in stock and ready to ship...waiting for bank approval. They have been paid weeks ago.

I am just about ready to call my bank. Any one have a alternate ways to reach these guys?..they have not responded to multiple emails. I would be happy to continue buying from them if this a temporary issue...but I gather from this board that this has been an ongoing problem.

The biggest frustration for me is that I would have to start over from scratch....I have a lovely hybrid solution of my own design that works great on both gloss and matte paper...using MIS B&W inks and a gloss optimizer channel. It took me a long while to get optimum profiles for QTR...so this will be a sad day if I have to abandon and start over.

Buyer beware. Something is amiss at MIS.

Phil

With all due respect. . .
I fail to understand how new facilities for MIS Inksupply are likely to 
alter a failed corporate culture where non-communication is considered 
the norm and okay.

There is one member on this forum who seems to have a direct-line into 
that company, and as far as I've seen he has never shared it on this 
group. I can certainly respect his decision for not doing that, but in 
the end, he is the only one, then, who gets to drink the MIS Kool-Aid, 
and be told that the problems are only minor, and that things will get 
better.

In this day and age neither phone or Internet communications are limited 
in any way by facilities. While, at MIS, tickets go unanswered, phones 
are not answered, and phone messages are not returned, and, in our case, 
the status of our order online did not change for months, even after 
Yahoo (or our bank's fraud division) got them to refund our payment.

Furthermore, if a facilities move is now being used as their scapegoat, 
that already would seem to indicate that the problem may have not been 
so minor, only affecting a few orders as was previously stated on this 
forum. And as I've responded before, if it was only a few orders that 
had problems, then how hard could it be for them to pick up a phone or 
send an email of explanation? And in our case, we stated in our messages 
and tickets that we would be willing to alter our order to work around 
whatever was holding it up; even so, no response to that offer ever came.

I hold by my original evaluation: one of two things. . . either MIS is 
grossly incompetent, or they are crooks. Either way, they have lost our 
business for ever.

We were, fortunately, just beginning some initial experiments when we 
ran into these problems with MIS, and these were not only for myself but 
were being conducted for the benefit of a photo guild of about 200 
members. We have been able to create our own B&W solution and now, 
happily, have no reason to order from them in any case. As others have 
said: Buyer beware. From our experience, everything is fine when MIS 
does ship your order, but when they do not, for whatever reason, you 
will not learn what that reason is, your online order status will not 
update, and you will then discover that all lines of communication for 
you are non-existent.

Les

Does MIS have a customer support forum, board, or user community? I seem to be getting a ton of emails about business issues with MIS on this forum (and others) and generally I don’t like wading through them.

Part of why we at IJM have a dedicated users forum is so any problems that customers may have can be answered promptly there on an hour-to-hour basis (bravely and in public) but not clog up other forums like this one with issues not pertinent to the forum. This place is for talking about prints I think . . .

Sounds like MIS needs its own customer support system in place for tickets, complaints, requests, RMAs, etc. Just a thought.

best,
Walker
//
Customer Support, R&D of Piezography
Previous: Light Work, Latitude, Black Point Editions

> On Jul 21, 2016, at 10:31 AM, Les Siemens filmboard2001@yahoo.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> With all due respect. . .
> I fail to understand how new facilities for MIS Inksupply are likely to 
> alter a failed corporate culture where non-communication is considered 
> the norm and okay.
> 
> There is one member on this forum who seems to have a direct-line into 
> that company, and as far as I've seen he has never shared it on this 
> group. I can certainly respect his decision for not doing that, but in 
> the end, he is the only one, then, who gets to drink the MIS Kool-Aid, 
> and be told that the problems are only minor, and that things will get 
> better.
> 
> In this day and age neither phone or Internet communications are limited 
> in any way by facilities. While, at MIS, tickets go unanswered, phones 
> are not answered, and phone messages are not returned, and, in our case, 
> the status of our order online did not change for months, even after 
> Yahoo (or our bank's fraud division) got them to refund our payment.
> 
> Furthermore, if a facilities move is now being used as their scapegoat, 
> that already would seem to indicate that the problem may have not been 
> so minor, only affecting a few orders as was previously stated on this 
> forum. And as I've responded before, if it was only a few orders that 
> had problems, then how hard could it be for them to pick up a phone or 
> send an email of explanation? And in our case, we stated in our messages 
> and tickets that we would be willing to alter our order to work around 
> whatever was holding it up; even so, no response to that offer ever came.
> 
> I hold by my original evaluation: one of two things. . . either MIS is 
> grossly incompetent, or they are crooks. Either way, they have lost our 
> business for ever.
> 
> We were, fortunately, just beginning some initial experiments when we 
> ran into these problems with MIS, and these were not only for myself but 
> were being conducted for the benefit of a photo guild of about 200 
> members. We have been able to create our own B&W solution and now, 
> happily, have no reason to order from them in any case. As others have 
> said: Buyer beware. From our experience, everything is fine when MIS 
> does ship your order, but when they do not, for whatever reason, you 
> will not learn what that reason is, your online order status will not 
> update, and you will then discover that all lines of communication for 
> you are non-existent.
> 
> Les
> 
> 
>

Why doesn’t everyone just switch over to InkJetMall (Cone) Piezography inks? Great service, quick ship, great tech support.

Mark
stillrivereditions.com

> On Jul 21, 2016, at 2:57 PM, Pete Bergstrom petebergstrom@gmail.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Don Bryant wrote:
> 
> >Paul you get honking good service because you promote and R&D their products so I think your credibility in this matter is getting a little thin.
> 
> I've placed two or three orders with MIS in the past 12 months, and each one has taken 3-4 weeks to fulfill (Eboni pigment + C6b bottles, cartridges, etc.). 
> 
> Yes, the lack of communications can be frustrating, but it does seem to be well-established that that is how they operate - I've gotten the message and I plan my orders accordingly.
> 
> Pete
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 11:53 AM, donsbryant@... <mailto:donsbryant@...> [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
> Obviously they aren't servicing the market very well and I'm sick and tired of hearing excuses about their lack of service. I would say they better watch their step or they won't be in business much longer.
> 
> I'm not trying to pile on and wish them the best of luck but this situation is getting rediculous.
> 
> Paul you get honking good service because you promote and R&D their products so I think your credibility in this matter is getting a little thin.
> 
> Don Bryant
> 
> 
>

Why is that inappropriate? I use them and have had great results. I don’t work for them, just a customer.

Mark
stillrivereditions.com

> On Jul 21, 2016, at 3:18 PM, David Kachel david@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> And, don’t you think that shilling for IJM is just a little inappropriate?!

I've read several reviews of the IJM Piezography inks and they have tended to be very favorable.  I've ordered some non ink products from them and their service and support has been good.  The problem for me as a hobbyist printer is the cost difference.  A full set of six 110ml bottles of Piezography for my 1439 (slightly less than 4 0z.) costs in the vicinity of $250.  A 4 oz. bottle of MIS Eeboni 1.1 matte black costs $30.  With that bottle of MK ink I can make enough of the Eboni 6 inks to last me a very long time.  So despite the quality of the IJM Piezography product, it just isn't a cost effective alternate for me.

Mike Brubaker
 
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 7/21/16, Mark Savoia mark@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS INKSUPPLY....
 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Thursday, July 21, 2016, 2:59 PM
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
     
       
       
       Why doesn’t everyone just switch over to
 InkJetMall (Cone) Piezography inks? Great service, quick
 ship, great tech support.
 Mark
 stillrivereditions.com
 
 
 
 On Jul 21, 2016, at 2:57 PM, Pete
 Bergstrom petebergstrom@...
 [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
 wrote:
 
 
 Don
 Bryant wrote:
 >Paul you
 get honking good service because you promote and R&D
 their products so I think your credibility in this matter is
 getting a little thin.
 I've
 placed two or three orders with MIS in the past 12 months,
 and each one has taken 3-4 weeks to fulfill (Eboni pigment +
 C6b bottles, cartridges, etc.). 
 Yes, the
 lack of communications can be frustrating, but it does seem
 to be well-established that that is how they operate -
 I've gotten the message and I plan my orders
 accordingly.
 Pete
 
 On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at
 11:53 AM, donsbryant@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
 
 Obviously they aren't
 servicing the market very well and I'm sick and tired of
 hearing excuses about their lack of service. I would say
 they better watch their step or they won't be in
 business much longer.
 I'm not trying to pile on and
 wish them the best of luck but this situation is getting
 rediculous.
 Paul you get honking good service
 because you promote and R&D their products so I think
 your credibility in this matter is getting a little
 thin.
 Don Bryant
 
 
 
 
 
     
      
 
     
     
 
 
 
 #yiv2403276648 #yiv2403276648 --

I agree with you, Mark - I didn't see you as shilling for IJM.  And I think David's response had a bit too sharp of an edge to it.

Mike Brubaker

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 7/21/16, Mark Savoia mark@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS INKSUPPLY....
 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Thursday, July 21, 2016, 3:31 PM
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
     
       
       
       Why is that inappropriate? I use them and have had
 great results. I don’t work for them, just a
 customer.
 
 Mark
 stillrivereditions.com
 
 
 
 On Jul 21, 2016, at 3:18 PM,
 David Kachel david@...
 [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
 wrote:
 And,
 don’t you think that shilling for IJM is just a little
 inappropriate?!
 
 
     
      
 
     
     
 
 
 
 #yiv6334298350 #yiv6334298350 --

I agree with Mark on all counts. It is not shilling and it is not at all inappropriate. When did this group become the MIS only forum? In this case, the old saying “you get what you pay for” is right on target.

Keith

Keith Schreiber
jkschreiber.com

> On Jul 21, 2016, at 1:31 PM, Mark Savoia mark@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Why is that inappropriate? I use them and have had great results. I don’t work for them, just a customer.
> 
> 
> Mark
> stillrivereditions.com <http://stillrivereditions.com/>
>> On Jul 21, 2016, at 3:18 PM, David Kachel david@davidkachel.com <mailto:david@...> [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> And, don’t you think that shilling for IJM is just a little inappropriate?!
> 
> 
>

I can’t speak impartially because I work for IJM now. I just think it would be good for MIS to have a customer support system in place. It does cost money and that would reflect in the cost of the ink no doubt (as it does Piezography) but it seems to me that Paul is left to defend and sort-out issues that MIS should be handling where his time is better spent inventing ink and handling more interesting stuff on this forum. Just my two cents. In no way am I trying to shill a product here (frankly, I try never to on this forum). Just want to make sure that customers are taken care of and that this forum can get back to talking about high quality prints. It’s a very small niche market we are all in after all and if one part gets funky it reflects on the whole community.

cheers all,
Walker

> On Jul 21, 2016, at 4:23 PM, David Kachel david@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> For the same reason that no one here goes to their discussion group and says, “Hey everybody, let’s switch to MIS.”
> 
> 
> David Kachel
> 
> ___________________
> 
> Artist-Photographer
> Fine B&W Photographs
> 
> WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com <http://www.davidkachel.com/>
> BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com <http://thetransparentphotographer.com/>
> EMAIL: david@... <mailto:david@...>
> 
> PO Box 1093
> Bisbee, AZ 85603
> (520) 366-4181
> 
> From: "Mark Savoia mark@stillrivereditions.com <mailto:mark@...> [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>>
> Date: Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 12:31 PM
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m>>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS INKSUPPLY....
> 
> Why is that inappropriate? I use them and have had great results. I don’t work for them, just a customer.
> 
> 
> 
>

David,

This is not an MIS specific group. Did you think it was?

Keith

> On Jul 21, 2016, at 2:23 PM, David Kachel david@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> For the same reason that no one here goes to their discussion group and says, “Hey everybody, let’s switch to MIS.”
> 
> 
> David Kachel
> 
> ___________________
> 
> Artist-Photographer
> Fine B&W Photographs
> 
> WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com <http://www.davidkachel.com/>
> BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com <http://thetransparentphotographer.com/>
> EMAIL: david@... <mailto:david@...>
> 
> PO Box 1093
> Bisbee, AZ 85603
> (520) 366-4181
> 
> From: "Mark Savoia mark@... <mailto:mark@...> [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>>
> Date: Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 12:31 PM
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS INKSUPPLY....
> 
> Why is that inappropriate? I use them and have had great results. I don’t work for them, just a customer.
> 
> 
> 
>

Dear members of the group,

this is Thilo from Germany. I like to add a few thoughts to this 
discussion regarding the service of MIS.
(Please forgive my poor vocabulary.)

1.) I like to mention that all three orders that I placed with MIS 
during the last few years we completed successfully.
2.) I am really conviced that Paul (Roark) is a really independent 
developer of high-end-black-and-white-soultions. (Unfortunately I don't 
know him personally.)
3.) It is obvious that something is wrong / bad / not o.k. with many 
MIS-orders from group members, because their complaints are numerous and 
- as far as i can read an understand them - they are honest and serious.
4.) The printing solution from Piezographic seems to be a good solution 
for printing b/w-pictures, too. But Piezographic is a different (and 
much more expensive) path, as far as I know.**

My two cents regarding all of these points:

- The solutions of Paul Roark are outstanding. His work (and the work of 
Roy Harringon, of course) is the reason why I stopped chemical 
photography and switched to digital.
- I love the results I get from MIS-products and Paul's research.
- I'm convinced that Paul's cooperation with MIS is "unquestionable": 
Paul is doing outstanding research, MIS is selling the corresponding 
"turnkey solution" in the US and internationally.
- I would become really dissatisfied, if MIS would not answer my 
questions, too.
- Therefore: MIS should improve it's service. This has to be done 
really, really fast. And - in my oppinion - they should give an answer / 
an explanation to this forum regarding the many complaints. This should 
not be too complicated.

As I mentioned: Just my two cents from Germany!

Happy printing,
Best - Thilo

Am 21.07.2016 um 18:53 schrieb donsbryant@... 
[DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]:

>
> Obviously they aren't servicing the market very well and I'm sick and 
> tired of hearing excuses about their lack of service. I would say they 
> better watch their step or they won't be in business much longer.
>
>
> I'm not trying to pile on and wish them the best of luck but this 
> situation is getting rediculous.
>
> Paul you get honking good service because you promote and R&D their 
> products so I think your credibility in this matter is getting a 
> little thin.
>
> Don Bryant
>

All-


It's unfortunate that MIS seems to be self-destructing. I'm sure the ramifications for many are uncomfortable at best.


I've been a very happy IJM customer from the beginning and, over the years, made many purchases from MIS. I also have only respect and appreciation for Paul, his work, and his generosity. 


But Walker makes a subtle and important point. Taken as a whole we are a very small community. Our purchasing power is limited (virtually irrelevant to the Big Three: Epson, Canon and HP). That IJM charges more for its ink than MIS is, in my opinion, a foolish and meaningless distinction. There is--absolutely--no other company this community does business with that does more for this community than IJM. The product quality is outstanding. The customer support is a model that I wish many of the other internet vendors I do business with would copy. 


Just as important, though, they are relentlessly in the pursuit of solutions for the photography we are doing now and the photography we'll be doing in the future. Their R&D is second to none. When you purchase from them you're not just getting a superior product and customer support, you're investing in your future as an image maker.


Oh, and I'm not financially involved in IJM. Wish I were.



Bill Kennedy

Professor of Photocommunications
Area Coordinator
St. Edward's University
Austin, Texas USA

-----Original Message-----
From: 'forums@walkerblackwell.com' forums@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
To: David Lykes Keenan ausdlk@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jul 21, 2016 2:33 pm
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS INKSUPPLY....



  
    
                  
I can’t speak impartially because I work for IJM now. I just think it would be good for MIS to have a customer support system in place. It does cost money and that would reflect in the cost of the ink no doubt (as it does Piezography) but it seems to me that Paul is left to defend and sort-out issues that MIS should be handling where his time is better spent inventing ink and handling more interesting stuff on this forum. Just my two cents. In no way am I trying to shill a product here (frankly, I try never to on this forum). Just want to make sure that customers are taken care of and that this forum can get back to talking about high quality prints. It’s a very small niche market we are all in after all and if one part gets funky it reflects on the whole community.


cheers all,
Walker







On Jul 21, 2016, at 4:23 PM, David Kachel david@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:







For the same reason that no one here goes to their discussion group and says, “Hey everybody, let’s switch to MIS.”





David Kachel


___________________


Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs



WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com
BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com
EMAIL: david@...




PO Box 1093
Bisbee, AZ 85603

(520) 366-4181




From: "Mark Savoia mark@stillrivereditions.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, July 21, 2016 at 12:31 PM
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS INKSUPPLY....



Why is that inappropriate? I use them and have had great results. I don’t work for them, just a customer.

I believe that David is entirely correct in his assessment.  The
overwhelming posts on this thread are about MIS inks.

 

I understand that I might engender some criticism when I state that perhaps
the title of the group should be changed to reflect the emphasis on MIS
products.  There might be another group that is a bit broader in emphasis
and might be more properly included in the original title.  In so doing
those who do not use MIS products, and have no immediate plans to do so,
could view the MIS thread as desired.

 

Simply a thought not meant to inflame those who use and recommend the MIS
products.

 

Elliot

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 5:55 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS INKSUPPLY....

 

  

This is not an MIS specific group. Did you think it was?

 

No. I didn't think that. But the majority of the conversations about
specific inks do seem to be about MIS inks.

Didn't mean to mislead.

 

David Kachel

 

___________________

 

Artist-Photographer

Fine B&W Photographs

 

WEBSITE: www.davidkachel.com <http://www.davidkachel.com> 

BLOG: thetransparentphotographer.com

EMAIL: david@... <mailto:david@...> 

 

PO Box 1093

Bisbee, AZ 85603

(520) 366-4181

On 22/07/2016 8:45 AM, 'Dr. Elliot Puritz' drpuritz@... 
[DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] wrote:
> I understand that I might engender some criticism when I state that
> perhaps the title of the group should be changed to reflect the emphasis
> on MIS products.

No, please don't do that! I value the current scope of this forum and 
don't want to see it break up into fragments.

--

Peter Marquis-Kyle

me neither!!!
Best - Thilo

Am 22.07.2016 um 00:58 schrieb Peter Marquis-Kyle 
peter@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint]:

> On 22/07/2016 8:45 AM, 'Dr. Elliot Puritz' drpuritz@...
> [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] wrote:
>> I understand that I might engender some criticism when I state that
>> perhaps the title of the group should be changed to reflect the emphasis
>> on MIS products.
> No, please don't do that! I value the current scope of this forum and
> don't want to see it break up into fragments.
>
> --
>
> Peter Marquis-Kyle
>
>
> ---

I have been on this group for 12 years (well before starting at IJM only a half year ago) and I can assure you that it was not always MIS related. Those of us who are not using or talking about MIS have been silenced and generally made to feel unwelcome. The rest of us have basically stopped posting helpful information and prefer to speak in private, or on other forums that are more friendly to honest discussion of non-judgmental print and ink related topics. We basically have forgotten about this forum due to its strong bias and rather useless discussions (no offense meant). I have monitored it for all these years but have found little of interest to discuss in the past 6 years. It was certainly a vibrant and trend-setting community of folks in the early 2000s when all this stuff was starting for real so it still has a place in my heart, but it’s less than it was. Now that I’m not just a consumer of bw ink printing for artists all over the world, but I’m actually in a roll where I support a community of people using bw ink, I find myself back in the discussions needing to support artists and users wherever they may live and a few of them live here still. 

If the group changes to something like MISDigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint (as david suggests) I would very happily start a group at groups.io <http://groups.io/> called TheOriginalDigitalBlackandWhite and invite the level-headed among us to join. Oh, that would be a great day indeed!  (do I need to put an irony sign here?)

But for real though. Don’t change the name please. There are a ton of lurkers here who have valid thoughts, opinions, and tons of knowledge that just don’t post because they get pounced upon. I think it’s good to openly discuss the direction that this forum has taken over the years and maybe reset the track a bit to include a wider bunch of people who have just gone elsewhere or stopped posting on forums all-together because of their experiences here.

regards,
Walker


ps: As I write this, I’m reading Paul’s post about being banned from the Piezography customer support forum. That forum is dedicated to Piezography products. When people create workflows untested by us using products not made by us, we get support calls from customers trying to do the new cool thing (thinking that it came from us) that go on for weeks and months while we are trying to build a really specific vision for what we’re all about (this has happened a few times since I came on board). I don’t know the details of what went on because frankly I never had a need for the support forum at IJM so never registered there until starting at IJM, but I can guess that was part of it. Experimental stuff is best discussed on non-company-specific forums I think, this one being one of the first although it has drifted as I wrote above. I think you would find a healthy level of respect for you at IJM, Paul, even though the customer support forum is a much more boxed space dedicated to IJM specific topics. As a fellow experimenter I can assure you that I understand your motivations  in regard to making a product better or more adaptable. But, I think that it’s important to understand the microphone’s placement and its effect on others; and to understand others perspectives or sensitivities related to your stature and practice in the print world and how you use that stature and opinion to push product and tell people that other products are inferior. Some spaces are supposed to be brand neutral, the IJM customer support forum is/was/has-always-been not brand neutral. That is why it exists. The IJM forum does not relate in any polar way to the DigBW forum what-so-ever and serves an entirely different purpose although it’s started to become the de-facto printer maintenance resource for epson users . . . . like I said in my original post on this thread, maybe it’s time that MIS start a customer support forum . . . .

> 
> 
> I believe that David is entirely correct in his assessment.  The overwhelming posts on this thread are about MIS inks.
> 
>  
> 
> I understand that I might engender some criticism when I state that perhaps the title of the group should be changed to reflect the emphasis on MIS products.  There might be another group that is a bit broader in emphasis and might be more properly included in the original title.  In so doing those who do not use MIS products, and have no immediate plans to do so, could view the MIS thread as desired.
> 
>  
> 
> Simply a thought not meant to inflame those who use and recommend the MIS products.
> 
>  
> 
> Elliot
> 
>   <>

Dear Mike. 6x 110 mL bottles would be 660mL of ink and 22.31 fluid ounces of liquid not “slightly less than 4 Oz.” The individual cost of 4 oz of Piezography ink is closer to $50.00 and the cost difference reflects the service that we provide to support over 400 different printer and ink combinations and over 1200 curves and over 600 individual secondary products like carts, chips, and maintenance products many of which end up being used by MIS ink customers . . . . all spanning decades . . . . please do not distorted the cost difference. We do not provide a diluted ink because we make ink a different way. We also filter the ink (each shade individually after production) 5 times through sub micron filters and we match the micro-encapsulated pigment viscosity and weight with a very complex carrier base that is unique to each pigment! This is required for good ink that doesn’t clog or fill dampers with micro-filimit or agglomerated particles from manual mixing and no filtering. This is why we do not sell a K+dillution and is why we never say that one carrier base is capable of handling all pigments equally. It is also why we sell our own carts and accessories that we’ve tested with our ink chemistry. Our ink will go through some inferior tubes and plastics just like OEM inks do. In the long run, non-encapsulated non-filtered ink will cost much more in printer maintenance than any other inks that might be more expensive (oem or non-oem). Sorry to sound angry there. I really needed to correct the record. I understand that the 4oz of K ink can stretch a long way when diluted at home but the real-world cost difference between the products is not nearly as vast when factoring near and long-term use and quality/support infrastructure.

Regards, 
Walker

> On Jul 21, 2016, at 3:33 PM, Brubaker family brubaker_family@yahoo.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
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> I've read several reviews of the IJM Piezography inks and they have tended to be very favorable. I've ordered some non ink products from them and their service and support has been good. The problem for me as a hobbyist printer is the cost difference. A full set of six 110ml bottles of Piezography for my 1439 (slightly less than 4 0z.) costs in the vicinity of $250. A 4 oz. bottle of MIS Eeboni 1.1 matte black costs $30. With that bottle of MK ink I can make enough of the Eboni 6 inks to last me a very long time. So despite the quality of the IJM Piezography product, it just isn't a cost effective alternate for me.
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> Mike Brubaker
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