Digital BW, The Print

OK, I sorta unintentionally hijacked the "getting started" thread, so I think it best to start a new one to continue this discussion.

Paul,

Let me see if I understand what I think I understand.
;-)

MIS basically makes two black inks, not counting the one intended to be a sort of crossover for special color inksets.

First is the Eboni (EB6-PT-K), which is a neutral ink intended to fill the K slot for matte paper printing.

The other is the Photo Black (MISPROPT-PK), which is a much warmer black intended for printing on glossy surfaces and aimed at the PK slot for most printers. It is my understanding that this warm tone ink can be used just as readily on matte papers if warm prints are the goal, and that the LK and LLK inks that MIS sells are dilutions of this same PK ink? Or are they dilutions of the Eboni ink?

I also believe I understand that if I want the warmest possible prints on matte papers printed on an Epson 3800, I can use this Photo Black ink at varying dilutions in the C6C base? Or would the Photo Black ink force me to use the MIS amber base instead?

A little confusion here, because I thought I understood that the Photo Black ink wasn't quite black enough to be used with good effect in the K position and therefore Eboni has to be used in that slot, while various Photo Black dilutions can be used in all the other slots for maximum warmth? If I can use PK everywhere for even more warmth, that would be great.

Thanks for your patience.

davidkachel <david@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> ...
> MIS basically makes two black inks, ...
>
> First is the Eboni (EB6-PT-K), which is a neutral ink intended to fill the
> K slot for matte paper printing.
>
> The other is the Photo Black (MISPROPT-PK), which is a much warmer black
> intended for printing on glossy surfaces and aimed at the PK slot for most
> printers.
>
Yes, Eboni MK is used in most of the pigment inksets for matte paper.

The Photo Black actually comes in 2 forms.  MIS PRO PK is a higher ink load
for older printers.  K4 PK is the same pigment and base, but at a lower
load.  It works better for newer printers.  These PK inks use the "amber"
base for dilution.  This is the same as the MIS gloss optimizer (aka
"glop").  The PK inks print fine on matte papers, but their density is not
as high as an MK like Eboni MK; thus the need for a separate, specialized
MK ink.  The MIS PK inks use the same base as the color pigments MIS sells.

It is my understanding that this warm tone ink can be used just as readily
> on matte papers if warm prints are the goal, and that the LK and LLK inks
> that MIS sells are dilutions of this same PK ink?
>

Yes.


> Or are they dilutions of the Eboni ink?
>

No.  Eboni-6 is an inkset that is composed of dilutions of Eboni MK.  The
base used is definitely not the same as the PK base.  Eboni-6 is for matte
paper only; it rubs right off of glossy paper.


>
> I also believe I understand that if I want the warmest possible prints on
> matte papers printed on an Epson 3800, I can use this Photo Black ink at
> varying dilutions in the C6C base? Or would the Photo Black ink force me to
> use the MIS amber base instead?
>
The PK pigments are the warmer carbon pigments, but I really do not
recommend the generic base for MIS glossy pigments.  I'd stick with their
amber base.

I have not thoroughly tested the generic base with the the PK pigments.
 However, as part of a long term test whose variables were not well
controlled, the Eboni diluted with generic base and put into a CIS worked
for 4 years of one child going through college.  I never cleaned the CIS
out and I doubt the kid agitated it much.  The PK diluted with the generic
base that I gave to the other child failed, but I don't know what caused
it.  As such, while I have fairly high confidence in the generic base with
Eboni (and with HP PK, which I've also used for years), I do not have that
level of confidence with the generic base diluting the MIS PK.

A little confusion here, because I thought I understood that the Photo
> Black ink wasn't quite black enough to be used with good effect in the K
> position and therefore Eboni has to be used in that slot, ...
>
For matte paper that is correct.  For glossy paper, the PK obviously works
better than Eboni MK.

 Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From:  Paul Roark

"The PK pigments are the warmer carbon pigments, but I really do not
recommend the generic base for MIS glossy pigments. I'd stick with their
amber base."

Will any of your bases work with the PK ink? Because your bases are $45 a
gallon and MIS are almost TEN TIMES that amount!

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David,

**
>
> Will any of your bases work with the PK ink? Because your bases are $45 a
> gallon and MIS are almost TEN TIMES that amount!
>
>
I just don't know.  With the failure in that long term test, I'm obviously
reluctant to recommend anything.  I suspect there is no real problem, but,
again, at this point I'd have to say "caveat emptor."

As to the price difference, well, what do you think the generic base is all
about?  Dilute ink is very expensive water, even from very competitively
priced sellers like MIS.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From:  Paul Roark

"The Photo Black actually comes in 2 forms. MIS PRO PK is a higher ink load
for older printers."

Hmmm! Would it be possible to use MIS PRO PK in the K slot of the 3800 and
thereby get a warmer black that is still heavy enough to replace the MK?

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No carbon PK will come close to Eboni on matte paper in terms of dmax.  You
need an MK like Eboni.  If you want a slightly warmer MK,  you might try
Epson MK or the one from HP.   However, my memory is that the Epson MK will
not match the dmax of Eboni on Arches, but I don't have clear statistics on
that.  (The Epson MK in my 7800 was so bad it must have been due to
settlement or something else.  It had not been used much at all and was old
ink.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:05 PM, David Kachel <david@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> From: Paul Roark
>
>
> "The Photo Black actually comes in 2 forms. MIS PRO PK is a higher ink load
> for older printers."
>
> Hmmm! Would it be possible to use MIS PRO PK in the K slot of the 3800 and
> thereby get a warmer black that is still heavy enough to replace the MK?
>
>
> David Kachel
>
> ___________________
>
> Artist-Photographer
> Fine B&W Photographs
>
> www.davidkachel.com
> david@davidkachel.com
>
> Gallery:
> www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
> director@reddoorfinephotographs.com
>
> PO Box 1893
> Alpine, TX 79831
> (432) 386-5787
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From:  Paul Roark 

"No carbon PK will come close to Eboni on matte paper in terms of dmax."

OK, so at least for now, it would appear that my only practical/viable
option for warm(est) tones on watercolor paper are MK for the K slot and
various dilutions of PK (using ONLY MIS's Amber base for dilution) for all
the other slots.

The remaining question then is, with what dilutions should I start?
I recall you saying that because PK is a weaker ink, it requires more
ink:base than MK inks, so I assume the dilutions we talked about earlier in
the thread won't do.

I am going to use the LK, LLK, M, LM and Y slots, leaving the C and LC slots
out of play in my 3800, what PK dilutions would you suggest I start with?

Also, you talk about percentage solutions and I should make sure I'm on the
same page as you.
To me, when you say to use a 10% solution, I think you mean that I should
put 10ml of PK stock into 90ml of Amber base (shaken, not stirred?). Is that
correct?



David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David,



>   OK, so at least for now, it would appear that my only practical/viable
> option for warm(est) tones on watercolor paper are MK for the K slot and
> various dilutions of PK (using ONLY MIS's Amber base for dilution) for all
> the other slots.
>
> The remaining question then is, with what dilutions should I start?
>

See page 2 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-6K-Plus.pdf for what I
did.

With the 3800, you have both MK and PK positions.  I recommend you use
those for Eboni and K4 PK.  That way you can try the PK on matte, or, more
importantly, on new baryta papers as they are offered.  You might just like
what you see.  Even if Arches is your sole target, you may want to make
postcards, posters, and the like that would use "glossy" paper.

If you want a very flexible printer, I'd also have Epson Y, LC, and LM
installed.  You will then be able to go warmer or make a neutral print if
you like.  I see below that you want M and not LC in there.  I can't say
how warm the LM will let you go, but I'd guess it'll be enough.  These are
high gamut colors, and even a very warm B&W is rather low gamut.   It also
just might be the case that you'd want to make a neutral print some day for
some reason.  If you have the LC in there, you can.  But, I can't say for
sure what is going to be best for you.

That leaves 4 more positions for carbon. I used the 4 MIS pre-mixed carbons
that are shown on the PDF, from UT7-C down to K4-LLK.  As you mention
below, the LK and LLK are rather standard.

If you want to go lighter than an LLK, an LLLK can be mixed.  I'd do a 30%
LLK to 70% amber base (or just do a 1:2 for simplicity).

You can profile the LLLK in the usual QTR serial partitioning system.

You might also consider the UT7-LC (about 15% PK) and then use it as a
toner in a separate channel.  This makes for more overlaps.  What I like to
do is initially call it a toner and let QTR profile it as such.  However,
then make it into a manual curve that you can use to adjust the
pre-linearized QTR profile to take care of any areas that are not smooth.





>  I am going to use the LK, LLK, M, LM and Y slots,
>

As noted above, I doubt you need the M if you have LM, but I don't know
just how brown you need to go either.




>  leaving the C and LC slots
>

You never want to make a neutral print?


>  what PK dilutions would you suggest I start with?
>

See above.




>
> Also, you talk about percentage solutions and I should make sure I'm on the
> same page as you.
> To me, when you say to use a 10% solution, I think you mean that I should
> put 10ml of PK stock into 90ml of Amber base (shaken, not stirred?). Is
> that
> correct?
>

Yes, stirred.  Foam is a problem and shaking is a mess.  You probably have
you darkroom stirring rod handy.

I don't know of any magic mix here.  There is an advantage to using
standard inks as well as the pre-mixed were available, assuming there is
not major savings.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From:  Paul Roark

"If you want a very flexible printer, I'd also have Epson Y, LC, and LM
installed. You will then be able to go warmer or make a neutral print if
you like. I see below that you want M and not LC in there. I can't say
how warm the LM will let you go, but I'd guess it'll be enough. These are
high gamut colors, and even a very warm B&W is rather low gamut. It also
just might be the case that you'd want to make a neutral print some day for
some reason. If you have the LC in there, you can. But, I can't say for
sure what is going to be best for you."

Thanks, but I want to keep it simple to start. (Though I do like the idea of
putting PK in the PK slot, just in case.)
I want to copy what you did here:

Y = Eb6-Y (2% Eboni)

LM = Eb6-LM (6% Eboni)

LLK = Eb6-LC (9% Eboni)

M = Eb6-M (18% Eboni)

LK = Eb6-C (30% Eboni)

K = Eboni MK 

But with PK dilutions instead of MK dilutions (except in the K slot of
course). (Also, I can't use the C and LC slots anyway. All the machinations
of the last couple of years resulted in those two slots never having a clean
nozzle check now.)

What percent solutions would you suggest for a starting point to get similar
results with PK as you got above with MK?


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David,

**
> ... I want to keep it simple to start. ...
> I want to copy what you did here:
>
> Y = Eb6-Y (2% Eboni)
>
> LM = Eb6-LM (6% Eboni)
>
> LLK = Eb6-LC (9% Eboni)
>
> M = Eb6-M (18% Eboni)
>
> LK = Eb6-C (30% Eboni)
>
> K = Eboni MK
>
> But with PK dilutions instead of MK dilutions ...
>
> What percent solutions would you suggest for a starting point to get
> similar
> results with PK as you got above with MK?
>
>
On page 3 of the basic Eboni-6 PDF --
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf -- I note the equivalences.

Translating that page, I'd use the following:

Eb6Y (2% Eboni) is about equal to 3% PK -- an LLLK.

EB6LM (6% Eboni) is about equal to standard LLK or 9% PK.

EB6LC (9% Eboni) is about equal to the MIS UT7-LC noted earlier or 15% PK.

EB6M & LK (18% Eboni) is about equal to 30% PK.

EB6C (30% Eboni) is about equal to MIS UT7-C or 50% PK.

K = Eboni (The standard MIS Associates carbon matte black ink)

So, you can mix them or buy all but the LLLK, which would be 1 part LLK to
2 parts amber base.

PK is at http://www.inksupply.com/product-details.cfm?pn=K4-PT-PK

The amber base is here:
http://www.inksupply.com/product-details.cfm?pn=ESC-BASEPT-UC

If you want the pre-mixed, just search the inksupply.com web site for K4
LLK and LK, and UT7 C and LC.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]