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grainy appearance on watercolor papers

grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by davidkachel

Hoping someone has a solution to this problem...
I have switched to watercolor papers completely (Arches, etc.).
Though I am very pleased with the results I am getting, I am occasionally experiencing a problem I did not have with standard coated papers. (Anyone want to buy some Red River Aurora Natural? Unopened boxes?)
A few images show a grainy/noisy appearance in some of the midtones that never showed up on coated papers.
This is happening with papers for which I am using custom profiles I have made. When it does happen, it seems to happen on whatever paper/profile combination I try for that image.
If you have seen anything like this before, please tell me what you believe caused it and what you did to solve the problem.
Thanks.

Re: [Digital BW] grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by pdesmidt tds.net

I've experienced that too.  It might have to do with ink overload.  You
might try lowering the overall ink limit and using more "black boost" to
keep a good dmax.  Paul has much more experience with Arches, though, and
I'm sure he'll have some better ideas.


On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 7:25 PM, davidkachel <david@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hoping someone has a solution to this problem...
> I have switched to watercolor papers completely (Arches, etc.).
> Though I am very pleased with the results I am getting, I am occasionally
> experiencing a problem I did not have with standard coated papers. (Anyone
> want to buy some Red River Aurora Natural? Unopened boxes?)
> A few images show a grainy/noisy appearance in some of the midtones that
> never showed up on coated papers.
> This is happening with papers for which I am using custom profiles I have
> made. When it does happen, it seems to happen on whatever paper/profile
> combination I try for that image.
> If you have seen anything like this before, please tell me what you
> believe caused it and what you did to solve the problem.
> Thanks.
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by tboleyyh

David, in my experience that usually a mottle from too much ink, actually tiny beads, or puddles. More limiting is the only answer, and if it's in middle tones, that means more limiting of the light inks. If you are using the OEM RGB driver, your only way to control that is with media settings. GO all the way down to the plain paper setting, if all is well there try moving to higher inking settings and see if there's a compromise. Then of course you'll have to reprofile.
If you are using qtr, limiting each ink is a bit easier to do. Also, evaluate dry, it tends to calm down a but from when it first comes out wet. I use Ergosoft for this work, so can't verify the above will get you there, but it's worth a try.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "davidkachel" <david@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hoping someone has a solution to this problem...
> I have switched to watercolor papers completely (Arches, etc.).
> Though I am very pleased with the results I am getting, I am occasionally experiencing a problem I did not have with standard coated papers. (Anyone want to buy some Red River Aurora Natural? Unopened boxes?)
> A few images show a grainy/noisy appearance in some of the midtones that never showed up on coated papers.
> This is happening with papers for which I am using custom profiles I have made. When it does happen, it seems to happen on whatever paper/profile combination I try for that image.
> If you have seen anything like this before, please tell me what you believe caused it and what you did to solve the problem.
> Thanks.
>

Re: [Digital BW] grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by David Kachel

On 7/11/13 7:46 PM, "pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:

>I've experienced that too.  It might have to do with ink overload.  You
>might try lowering the overall ink limit and using more "black boost" to
>keep a good dmax.  Paul has much more experience with Arches, though, and
>I'm sure he'll have some better ideas.

Black boost?

Maybe I should mention I am using Epson inks.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by Paul Roark

With the 1400 I have the light inks at a limit of 25 with Arches.  For the
7800, I have them at 40.  The K will boost to 75 or above.

I don't think a good Arches print can be made with the Epson driver.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 5:48 PM, tboleyyh <tyler@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> David, in my experience that usually a mottle from too much ink, actually
> tiny beads, or puddles. More limiting is the only answer, and if it's in
> middle tones, that means more limiting of the light inks. If you are using
> the OEM RGB driver, your only way to control that is with media settings.
> GO all the way down to the plain paper setting, if all is well there try
> moving to higher inking settings and see if there's a compromise. Then of
> course you'll have to reprofile.
> If you are using qtr, limiting each ink is a bit easier to do. Also,
> evaluate dry, it tends to calm down a but from when it first comes out wet.
> I use Ergosoft for this work, so can't verify the above will get you there,
> but it's worth a try.
> Tyler
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "davidkachel" <david@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hoping someone has a solution to this problem...
> > I have switched to watercolor papers completely (Arches, etc.).
> > Though I am very pleased with the results I am getting, I am
> occasionally experiencing a problem I did not have with standard coated
> papers. (Anyone want to buy some Red River Aurora Natural? Unopened boxes?)
> > A few images show a grainy/noisy appearance in some of the midtones that
> never showed up on coated papers.
> > This is happening with papers for which I am using custom profiles I
> have made. When it does happen, it seems to happen on whatever
> paper/profile combination I try for that image.
> > If you have seen anything like this before, please tell me what you
> believe caused it and what you did to solve the problem.
> > Thanks.
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by pdesmidt tds.net

Sorry, I assumed you were using QTR.  If you're using the Epson print
driver, then try what Tyler suggested.


On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 7:53 PM, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> With the 1400 I have the light inks at a limit of 25 with Arches. For the
> 7800, I have them at 40. The K will boost to 75 or above.
>
> I don't think a good Arches print can be made with the Epson driver.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 5:48 PM, tboleyyh <tyler@...> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > David, in my experience that usually a mottle from too much ink, actually
> > tiny beads, or puddles. More limiting is the only answer, and if it's in
> > middle tones, that means more limiting of the light inks. If you are
> using
> > the OEM RGB driver, your only way to control that is with media settings.
> > GO all the way down to the plain paper setting, if all is well there try
> > moving to higher inking settings and see if there's a compromise. Then of
> > course you'll have to reprofile.
> > If you are using qtr, limiting each ink is a bit easier to do. Also,
> > evaluate dry, it tends to calm down a but from when it first comes out
> wet.
> > I use Ergosoft for this work, so can't verify the above will get you
> there,
> > but it's worth a try.
> > Tyler
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "davidkachel"
> <david@...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hoping someone has a solution to this problem...
> > > I have switched to watercolor papers completely (Arches, etc.).
> > > Though I am very pleased with the results I am getting, I am
> > occasionally experiencing a problem I did not have with standard coated
> > papers. (Anyone want to buy some Red River Aurora Natural? Unopened
> boxes?)
> > > A few images show a grainy/noisy appearance in some of the midtones
> that
> > never showed up on coated papers.
> > > This is happening with papers for which I am using custom profiles I
> > have made. When it does happen, it seems to happen on whatever
> > paper/profile combination I try for that image.
> > > If you have seen anything like this before, please tell me what you
> > believe caused it and what you did to solve the problem.
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by David Kachel

More limiting is the only answer, and if it's in middle tones, that means
more limiting of the light inks.

I have to admit, that left me a bit puzzled. Why would limiting light inks
be the solution of the mid tones are the problem?


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by David Kachel

GO all the way down to the plain paper setting

Are you referring to 'Print Settings ­ Printer Settings ­ Media Type: -
Plain Paper ­ Plain Paper/Bright White Paper' ?

What about ''Print Settings ­ Advanced Media Control ­ Color Density' ?
Would reducing color density solve the problem?

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by David Kachel

"I don't think a good Arches print can be made with the Epson driver."

OK, that's disturbing and intriguing at the same time.
I have been very pleased with my prints on Arches with the exception of
these few grainy results.
Please expand on your statement. What has your experience been with
watercolor papers and the Epson driver (and Epson's inks)?
I'm always up for getting better results than I thought I could!


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by tboleyyh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
>
> More limiting is the only answer, and if it's in middle tones, that means
> more limiting of the light inks.
> 
> I have to admit, that left me a bit puzzled. Why would limiting light inks
> be the solution of the mid tones are the problem?

the light inks actually go much farther down the scale than might seem obvious, and they are running at very high percentages in those values.
I'm afraid I don't have enough experience messing with the OEM RGB driver to tell you specific setting to try. I've done enough to know that at the lowest ink settings, plain paper in the printer I tested, Arches did not mottle or bleed, but was also weak from too little density. We found a good compromise, it may have been enhanced matte, or the watercolor radiant white (name just a coincidence), and with a good custom profile did fairly well. It was not for hot press though, which will show the mottle more clearly.
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by David Kachel

"the light inks actually go much farther down the scale than might seem
obvious, and they are running at very high percentages in those values.
I'm afraid I don't have enough experience messing with the OEM RGB driver to
tell you specific setting to try. I've done enough to know that at the
lowest ink settings, plain paper in the printer I tested, Arches did not
mottle or bleed, but was also weak from too little density. We found a good
compromise, it may have been enhanced matte, or the watercolor radiant white
(name just a coincidence), and with a good custom profile did fairly well.
It was not for hot press though, which will show the mottle more clearly."

I should provide still more information. (I forget that other people are not
after what I am after.)
My images are monochrome, but I use the Epson color inks to give the image a
heavy brown tone. (Make that, HEAVY!)
I have only played with QTR in the past and then, only with straight B&W
prints, not colored tones and not color inks. I don't even know: can QTR be
used to print color images with Epson's inks? Or is it designed only to
print B&W images with those inks?


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by David Kachel

"ALERT! **** QuadToneRIP does not support printer 3880 ****"

Any ideas? Printer is connected via USB.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by Mike Finley

PC or Mac?
I'm using a 3880 on a PC (Windows 7 and earlier Windows XP, currently 
with a USB connection) and print monochrome images using QTR and the 
standard Epson colour cartridges, though mostly pretty neutral tones. (I 
have been tempted to make a 'cyanotype' curve on occasions, but so far 
haven't got round to doing it)

On 12/07/2013 03:12, David Kachel wrote:
>
> "ALERT! **** QuadToneRIP does not support printer 3880 ****"
>
> Any ideas? Printer is connected via USB.
>
> David Kachel
>
> ___________________
>
> Artist-Photographer
> Fine B&W Photographs
>
> www.davidkachel.com
> david@... <mailto:david%40davidkachel.com>
>
> Gallery:
> www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
> director@... 
> <mailto:director%40reddoorfinephotographs.com>
>
> PO Box 1893
> Alpine, TX 79831
> (432) 386-5787
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 

-- 
mike finley photography
http://www.mikefinley.co.uk
http://words.mikefinley.co.uk
http://www.roguegenegallery.com/Mike_Finley-gallery.html



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by David Kachel

"PC or Mac?"

Mac.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by EJ Neilsen

Just which Arches paper are you trying to print on?

 

Eric Neilsen

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

SKYPE ejprinter
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Kachel
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 8:52 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

 

  

"the light inks actually go much farther down the scale than might seem
obvious, and they are running at very high percentages in those values.
I'm afraid I don't have enough experience messing with the OEM RGB driver to
tell you specific setting to try. I've done enough to know that at the
lowest ink settings, plain paper in the printer I tested, Arches did not
mottle or bleed, but was also weak from too little density. We found a good
compromise, it may have been enhanced matte, or the watercolor radiant white
(name just a coincidence), and with a good custom profile did fairly well.
It was not for hot press though, which will show the mottle more clearly."

I should provide still more information. (I forget that other people are not
after what I am after.)
My images are monochrome, but I use the Epson color inks to give the image a
heavy brown tone. (Make that, HEAVY!)
I have only played with QTR in the past and then, only with straight B&W
prints, not colored tones and not color inks. I don't even know: can QTR be
used to print color images with Epson's inks? Or is it designed only to
print B&W images with those inks?

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@... <mailto:david%40davidkachel.com> 

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...
<mailto:director%40reddoorfinephotographs.com> 

PO Box 1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by David Kachel

"Just which Arches paper are you trying to print on?"

I print on both Cold and Hot Press.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by EJ Neilsen

I was really asking about specific papers since there are many hot and cold
press Arches papers. Not all have the same sizing, texture, etc and could
certainly influence how the paper can handle an ink load. I haven't run test
on this thought, but since it applies to absorption, do you track the
humidity of the paper prior to printing? 

 

Eric Neilsen

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

SKYPE ejprinter
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Kachel
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 11:38 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

 

  

"Just which Arches paper are you trying to print on?"

I print on both Cold and Hot Press.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@... <mailto:david%40davidkachel.com> 

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...
<mailto:director%40reddoorfinephotographs.com> 

PO Box 1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-12 by David Kachel

I was really asking about specific papers since there are many hot and cold
press Arches papers. Not all have the same sizing, texture, etc and could
certainly influence how the paper can handle an ink load. I haven't run test
on this thought, but since it applies to absorption, do you track the
humidity of the paper prior to printing?

It's their standard watercolor papers. 22"x30", 140lb/300GSM.
I live in Alpine TX. Humidity is little concern, so no, I don't track it.
I can imagine that where you are, humidity is a constant headache.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-13 by Paul Roark

EJ Neilsen <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> ... there are many hot and cold
> press Arches papers. Not all have the same sizing, texture, etc ...
>

I've also discovered this.  I prefer the Arches Hot Press "Bright White"
(no OBAs, and not really very much brighter than the standard Arches).  The
full sheets -- 22 x 30 inches are what I find work the best.  The rolls are
bad and pads are bad news.

Because the ink limits are held low, the inksets with lots of grays
probably are going to work the best.

My old 7500 made bid dots -- don't bother with that era printer.

Getting good prints on Arches is not easy, and thus has that much more
attraction for those who are really into B&W printing.  The coatings of
standard inkjet papers are probably going to be a source of trouble in the
very long run.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-13 by David Kachel

"The coatings of
standard inkjet papers are probably going to be a source of trouble in the
very long run."

Paul,

And in the short run too, as I've discovered. I opened a matte a couple of
months ago to show a couple how my images are mounted in the mattes and was
greeted by a glaring yellow border on a print made on Entrada Bright White.
I don't know which emotion I had to fight the hardest, embarrassment or
anger. I had to replace the print before I even sold it. When I calmed down
(the following week, I think), I realized that it was the brighteners and it
probably wouldn't get any worse. I also realized that what was a yellow,
flashing, 1000 watt neon sign to me, was probably invisible to them, but
that incident was the last straw that made me decide I would make no more
prints on anybody's coated paper.

Prints on watercolor papers may not have the range and tonal smoothness of
coated papers, but even with the drawbacks, they still produce much better
looking prints. Watercolor paper prints have soul, coated paper prints do
not. I'm sold on them completely. (I got the idea to use them from you, BTW,
so you are to blame!)    ;-)

I've been experimenting with some of the advice I have gotten so far and
have reduced the grainy appearance substantially. Still some more work to
do.
I made test prints on every Epson paper setting I could (some of those
recommended wouldn't allow enough resolution). The behavior differences
between these settings was quite pronounced.
I had been using the "Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte" (Printer
Settings, not ICC profile). That turned out to be a bad idea. "Watercolor
Radiant White" turned out to be the best choice. Go figure. Epson really
needs to change these settings to something that makes more sense, and is
alterable by the user. Do you know any source that gives a meaningful
explanation for these settings?

On another topic, I can't get the Install3880.command to work. It tells me
"QuadToneRIP does not support printer 3880". Any suggestions? (Yes, I have
the machine connected via USB.)


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-13 by Paul Roark

The yellowing is probably due to OBAs fading, not the fact that the paper
was a coated paper.  http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ has lots of data on
various paper white color changes.  Some papers with OBAs do OK.  Natural
paper bleaches.  I favor Epson Hot Press Natural, a non-OBA paper that does
bleach a fair amount, but that really does not bother me much.  (BTW,
please make a donation to http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/)

You seem to be going the QTR route.  Good.  You need a RIP to properly
print on Arches.

How to load QTR (on a Mac, it sounds like) and get a 3880 supported will
need feedback from those users.  You may want to do a quick search on
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/messages

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 5:39 PM, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> ... I opened a matte a couple of
> months ago to show a couple how my images are mounted in the mattes and was
> greeted by a glaring yellow border on a print made on Entrada Bright
> White....
>



>
> On another topic, I can't get the Install3880.command to work. It tells me
> "QuadToneRIP does not support printer 3880". Any suggestions? (Yes, I have
> the machine connected via USB.)
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-13 by David Kachel

From:  Paul Roark 

"The yellowing is probably due to OBAs fading, not the fact that the paper
was a coated paper."


Yes, I understand that. But there seems to be a 'relaxed attitude' among the
makers of coated papers in general.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-13 by faeofavalon

I'm curious... What is the advantage to printing on traditonal uncoated Arches over Canson's infinity Arches aquarelle rag? I print on the latter and it looks beautiful and I believe there are no OBAs correct?

- AnnMarie Tornabene
www.annmarietornabene.net





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> The yellowing is probably due to OBAs fading, not the fact that the paper
> was a coated paper.  http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ has lots of data on
> various paper white color changes.  Some papers with OBAs do OK.  Natural
> paper bleaches.  I favor Epson Hot Press Natural, a non-OBA paper that does
> bleach a fair amount, but that really does not bother me much.  (BTW,
> please make a donation to http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/)
> 
> You seem to be going the QTR route.  Good.  You need a RIP to properly
> print on Arches.
> 
> How to load QTR (on a Mac, it sounds like) and get a 3880 supported will
> need feedback from those users.  You may want to do a quick search on
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/messages
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 5:39 PM, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
> 
> > **
> >
> >
> > ... I opened a matte a couple of
> > months ago to show a couple how my images are mounted in the mattes and was
> > greeted by a glaring yellow border on a print made on Entrada Bright
> > White....
> >
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > On another topic, I can't get the Install3880.command to work. It tells me
> > "QuadToneRIP does not support printer 3880". Any suggestions? (Yes, I have
> > the machine connected via USB.)
> >
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-13 by Paul Roark

The "infinity" is a coated inkjet paper, I believe.  Some conservators
believe the coatings are the weak links in prints, at least when carbon
pigments are used.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 10:00 AM, faeofavalon <faeofavalon@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
> I'm curious... What is the advantage to printing on traditonal uncoated
> Arches over Canson's infinity Arches aquarelle rag? I print on the latter
> and it looks beautiful and I believe there are no OBAs correct?
>
> - AnnMarie Tornabene
> www.annmarietornabene.net
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, Paul Roark
> <roark.paul@...> wrote:
> >
> > The yellowing is probably due to OBAs fading, not the fact that the paper
> > was a coated paper. http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ has lots of data
> on
> > various paper white color changes. Some papers with OBAs do OK. Natural
> > paper bleaches. I favor Epson Hot Press Natural, a non-OBA paper that
> does
> > bleach a fair amount, but that really does not bother me much. (BTW,
> > please make a donation to http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/)
> >
> > You seem to be going the QTR route. Good. You need a RIP to properly
> > print on Arches.
> >
> > How to load QTR (on a Mac, it sounds like) and get a 3880 supported will
> > need feedback from those users. You may want to do a quick search on
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/messages
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 5:39 PM, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > ... I opened a matte a couple of
> > > months ago to show a couple how my images are mounted in the mattes
> and was
> > > greeted by a glaring yellow border on a print made on Entrada Bright
> > > White....
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > On another topic, I can't get the Install3880.command to work. It
> tells me
> > > "QuadToneRIP does not support printer 3880". Any suggestions? (Yes, I
> have
> > > the machine connected via USB.)
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-13 by David Kachel

From:  faeofavalon

"I'm curious... What is the advantage to printing on traditonal uncoated
Arches over Canson's infinity Arches aquarelle rag? I print on the latter
and it looks beautiful and I believe there are no OBAs correct?"

I'm not sure 'advantage' is the right word. 'Preference' might be, well,
preferable. For me, anyway.

I have the experience and perspective to know that people who claim to make
wonderful products for photographers don't bother to take the necessary
precautions and don't care about an undesirable result, as long as it isn't
immediately noticeable.

For decades, Kodak sold what they knew to be highly defective color papers
to the public. They had to be sued before they would stop doing it. Ilford
sold B&W 120 roll film they knew to have photo-reactive inks on the backing
paper (I told them myself, so I have no doubt they knew; others told them
too) for even longer, and as far as I know, they still do! Epson,
Hahnemülle, Moab and others are selling papers they know will yellow in a
very short time. Red River sells Aurora, which they know (again, because I
told them) streaks irreparably when used in HP printers because the inks dry
too slowly. So for me, from a practical standpoint, if it is coated, it is
suspect and I won't use suspect materials.
Another consideration: these coated inkjet papers have not been around long
enough to know their long term characteristics and accelerated aging tests
can't account for every consideration. The fewer components in my materials,
the better I think my odds are.

From a strictly personal perspective, comparing the same image on watercolor
paper to coated paper, the watercolor paper image is simply more alive. With
a coated paper, you don't really see your image on top of the paper, you see
it on top of a coating. The paper is hidden underneath. I think of it like a
cheap plastic veneer obscuring a high quality piece of wood.



David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@reddoorfinephotographs.com

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-13 by pdesmidt tds.net

By "coated" do you mean papers that perform best with Photo Black, often
called "glossy" papers, or do you mean papers with an ink receptor coating,
which includes papers like Photo Rag  and Epson's Hot Press Natural, papers
which aren't glossy at all?

Arches water color paper doesn't have an ink receptor coating, unlike their
papers intended for inkjet printing.  One can make a pretty good print on
the water color paper using an Eboni ink set, but everyone that I've shown
comparison prints, one on Arches Hot Press water color paper, and one on
Epson Hot Press Natural, has preferred the prints on the Epson paper.  In
my case, I greatly prefer the prints on the Epson paper, and since it's a
cotton paper with no optical brighteners, and the inkset is made with pure
carbon pigment, the prints should last a pretty long time without
noticeable degradation, a tentative conclusion based on Aardenburg's
testing.

Theorizing that there might be a problem with various ink receptor coatings
is not by itself evidence that there is indeed a problem.  For all we know
the coating could lead to a better bond between the ink and the paper than
that provided by non ink receptor coated paper.

This is in no way meant to suggest that people shouldn't experiment or
print on Arches Water Color paper.  It's a fine paper. But it is not
obviously superior in archival properties than other good papers.


On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:43 PM, David Kachel <david@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> From: faeofavalon
>
>
> "I'm curious... What is the advantage to printing on traditonal uncoated
> Arches over Canson's infinity Arches aquarelle rag? I print on the latter
> and it looks beautiful and I believe there are no OBAs correct?"
>
> I'm not sure 'advantage' is the right word. 'Preference' might be, well,
> preferable. For me, anyway.
>
> I have the experience and perspective to know that people who claim to make
> wonderful products for photographers don't bother to take the necessary
> precautions and don't care about an undesirable result, as long as it isn't
> immediately noticeable.
>
> For decades, Kodak sold what they knew to be highly defective color papers
> to the public. They had to be sued before they would stop doing it. Ilford
> sold B&W 120 roll film they knew to have photo-reactive inks on the backing
> paper (I told them myself, so I have no doubt they knew; others told them
> too) for even longer, and as far as I know, they still do! Epson,
> Hahnem�lle, Moab and others are selling papers they know will yellow in a
> very short time. Red River sells Aurora, which they know (again, because I
> told them) streaks irreparably when used in HP printers because the inks
> dry
> too slowly. So for me, from a practical standpoint, if it is coated, it is
> suspect and I won't use suspect materials.
> Another consideration: these coated inkjet papers have not been around long
> enough to know their long term characteristics and accelerated aging tests
> can't account for every consideration. The fewer components in my
> materials,
> the better I think my odds are.
>
> From a strictly personal perspective, comparing the same image on
> watercolor
> paper to coated paper, the watercolor paper image is simply more alive.
> With
> a coated paper, you don't really see your image on top of the paper, you
> see
> it on top of a coating. The paper is hidden underneath. I think of it like
> a
> cheap plastic veneer obscuring a high quality piece of wood.
>
>
> David Kachel
>
> ___________________
>
> Artist-Photographer
> Fine B&W Photographs
>
> www.davidkachel.com
> david@...
>
> Gallery:
> www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
> director@...
>
> PO Box 1893
> Alpine, TX 79831
> (432) 386-5787
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-13 by David Kachel

On 7/13/13 3:27 PM, "pdesmidt tds.net" <pdesmidt@...> wrote:

>By "coated" do you mean papers that perform best with Photo Black, often
>called "glossy" papers, or do you mean papers with an ink receptor
>coating,
>which includes papers like Photo Rag  and Epson's Hot Press Natural,
>papers
>which aren't glossy at all?

---Those are all coated papers. The surfaces are just different.


>Arches water color paper doesn't have an ink receptor coating

---That is not entirely true. The sizing acts partially as an ink
receptor. The difference is that hundreds of years of experience means
that the sizing is a known quantity, while the newer ink receptor coatings
are not.


>Theorizing that there might be a problem with various ink receptor
>coatings
>is not by itself evidence that there is indeed a problem.

---Of course not. However, printing on non-coated paper means that any
future problems from coatings cannot possibly affect those prints.


>For all we known the coating could lead to a better bond between the ink
>and the paper than that provided by non ink receptor coated paper.

---Highly unlikely. More likely is that the two very different substances,
which will almost certainly expand and contract at different rates over
time, will result in a weakening of adherence and possibly cracking of the
coating. I don't know this will happen, but with uncoated papers, it is
impossible.

Everyone has to follow their own path. Experience has taught me to be VERY
suspicious and conservative when it comes to photographic materials.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

[Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by Don

David,

>The difference is that hundreds of years of experience means
> that the sizing is a known quantity,

That's absolutely false. The art papers made today by Arches, Fabriano, Canson, etc. aren't the same as the papers made in the past, even a decade or so ago.

Any alternative process printer is aware of this and more than one paper has changed their formulation without notice causing many alt. printers a lot of grief. The internal sizing formulation isn't constant nor is the surface coating. Granted that alt printers are subjecting the paper to water and chemicals unknown to the manufacturer but the fact is the papers consistency is a moving target over a period of time.

So there isn't any guarantee that art papers have greater longevity than manufactured inkjet papers, especially when they (art papers) are coated by the end user. 

If you want to have more technical and aesthetic control of your inkjet generated prints I think you would be better served to use a RIP and possibly custom formulate your ink, regardless of the paper(s) you may use or the coatings you apply to your selected papers.

Regards,

Don Bryant

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by David Kachel

From:  Don

"That's absolutely false. The art papers made today by Arches, Fabriano,
Canson, etc. aren't the same as the papers made in the past, even a decade
or so ago."

I don't follow your logic. You are claiming that watercolor papers are not
consistent, therefore coated papers must be reliable?
I'll stick with watercolor.


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by E.Neilsen

"The difference is that hundreds of years of experience means
that the sizing is a known quantity, while the newer ink receptor coatings
are not."
 
David, as a platinum printer and a member of the alt print community, I can
tell you, that just because a paper manufacture has been around a hundred
years, there papers making methods have changed a lot. Different processes
get all up in arms because yesterdays blend of ingredients are no longer in
today's. That's why I asked which papers, and not just cold or hot press,
but specific ones. And when I ask about humidity, it isn't just whether
there is high or low, but at what point does it work or not. I use drying
boxing and humidity controlled boxes to get papers to specific ranges. The
same may be important as you allow for the inks to sit on, or be absorbed
by, the papers. 
 
The quick tests that I ran with several papers over the years, showed that
sure I can make a print on them, but did I really care about the look and
testing.
 
As to your yellowed edges, the coated papers for ink jet do have issues with
pH changes and can go a very canary yellow in the wrong pH. In my experience
it isn't just a slight change in OBAs, but a chemical reaction that is quite
obvious. It is not even a direct contact issue, but an atmospheric issue
within a general proximity.  Keeping acidic papers, cardboard, cleaners, etc
anywhere near the prints can put it over the tipping point.  


 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
Let's Talk Photography
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by David Kachel

From:  "E.Neilsen" 

And when I ask about humidity, it isn't just whether
there is high or low, but at what point does it work or not. I use drying
boxing and humidity controlled boxes to get papers to specific ranges.

Very interesting. Does this experience translate into any practical advice
for inkjet printers, or is it primarily for those who coat their own papers?

Also. Went to your web site. Saw the Curtis imagesŠ big points! Love Curtis.
I have Plate 420 A Hopi Man 1921 hanging on my wall. I printed it on
Portriga Rapid 118 (before they ruined it) from a copy negative I made using
Professional Copy Film Type 4125 (one of my favorite in-camera films, before
it was discontinued), copy made from an original Japanese tissue print.

I looked for some of your platinum images, couldn't find any. Did I miss
them?


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by Pete Bergstrom

David,

On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 9:46 AM, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:

> From:  Don
>
> "That's absolutely false. The art papers made today by Arches, Fabriano,
> Canson, etc. aren't the same as the papers made in the past, even a decade
> or so ago."
>
> I don't follow your logic. You are claiming that watercolor papers are not
> consistent, therefore coated papers must be reliable?
>
>

Please reread what Don wrote. All 4 paragraphs are important and each has
key information to address this topic.

>I'll stick with watercolor.

That's fine, but don't kid yourself that the sizing on art papers is
superior for longevity than the coating on good inkjet papers. It may be,
or it may not and it may be both over a relatively short period of time.
Both Don and Eric are specifically saying that these things change without
warning and that the past couple decades have seen the papers change a lot.

Pete


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by David Kachel

From:  Pete Bergstrom

"Please reread what Don wrote. All 4 paragraphs are important and each has
key information to address this topic."

Just because I didn't quote it all, doesn't mean I didn't read it.

"That's fine, but don't kid yourself that the sizing on art papers is
superior for longevity than the coating on good inkjet papers."

As long as you don't kid yourself that those inkjet paper coatings couldn't
possibly contain deleterious things they don't tell you about. In fact, you
can probably bet on it!


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by Paul Roark

The image is just part of the print we are making.  One of the great things
about inkjet printing is that we have a wide choice of papers or
substrates.  Exploring the different looks and factors that may affect
things like expected longevity is part of the art, as I see it.

I, personally, print on Arches Hot Press, Epson Hot Press, among others  --
and I'm having a lot of fun with this Red River Polar Pearl Metallic and
the dyes.

I do expect that the Arches prints made with 100% carbon will last the
longest.  I think the stresses in the paper will cause problems with most
if not all coatings and laminates.  When I go into the studio in the
morning and see the dry-mounted glossy papers on foam-core, prior to
framing, bowed from my leaving the windows open at night, I'm persuaded
that these stresses are not insignificant.

I don't worry much about the carbon binder breaking down, because the tiny
carbon particles appear to bury themselves into the paper.  The generic
base came from a project to make a "workable" carbon inkset that a painter
could smear across watercolor paper.  It failed.  The binder-free carbon
could not be moved significantly even by a wet brush.

I've done some Googling with respect to the internal gelatin sizing I
believe Arches uses.  There is evidence that it actually aides in the paper
longevity.

But who knows ...?

The mere fact that it is more difficult to make has some natural quantity
limiting effects.  This can have appeal and marketing significance.

At any rate, printing on Arches makes a differentiated product that has
appeal to some.  In actual practice, they have often been my favorites that
are on my walls.  With some images Arches looks great. My last 2
significant collector sales (a couple full sheet prints and a full show of
small prints) were on Arches.

I think printing on Arches un-coated watercolor paper are, in part, a form
of alternative process.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by E.Neilsen

David, I did not pursue the experiments for inkjet printing.   With all the
changes that were taking place in alternative print making which included
how to make new printing negs, I simply needed to concentrate on different
aspects than whether this ink set worked with this paper throughout these
humidity ranges with these output setting. 
 
And sure as  ..  after I ran those experiments, the sizing would change, so.
Small batch experiments makes more sense to me. 
 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
Let's Talk Photography
 
  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Kachel
Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 10:36 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers
 
  
From: "E.Neilsen" 

And when I ask about humidity, it isn't just whether
there is high or low, but at what point does it work or not. I use drying
boxing and humidity controlled boxes to get papers to specific ranges.

Very interesting. Does this experience translate into any practical advice
for inkjet printers, or is it primarily for those who coat their own papers?

Also. Went to your web site. Saw the Curtis images� big points! Love Curtis.
I have Plate 420 A Hopi Man 1921 hanging on my wall. I printed it on
Portriga Rapid 118 (before they ruined it) from a copy negative I made using
Professional Copy Film Type 4125 (one of my favorite in-camera films, before
it was discontinued), copy made from an original Japanese tissue print.

I looked for some of your platinum images, couldn't find any. Did I miss
them?

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@davidkachel.com <mailto:david%40davidkachel.com> 

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...
<mailto:director%40reddoorfinephotographs.com> 

PO Box 1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by Pete Bergstrom

>Just because I didn't quote it all, doesn't mean I didn't read it.

Then please try to re-understand what he wrote, which was quite the
opposite of how your suggested rephrasing indicated.

>As long as you don't kid yourself that those inkjet paper coatings couldn't
possibly contain deleterious things they don't tell you about. In fact, you
can probably bet on it!

Absolutely. Unless one is willing to go to extreme lengths, many things are
out of one's control. I have a different risk tolerance than you, probably
along several orthogonal axes, which is just fine.

Best regards,
Pete



On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 11:19 AM, David Kachel <david@...>wrote:

> From:  Pete Bergstrom
>
> "Please reread what Don wrote. All 4 paragraphs are important and each has
> key information to address this topic."
>
> Just because I didn't quote it all, doesn't mean I didn't read it.
>
> "That's fine, but don't kid yourself that the sizing on art papers is
> superior for longevity than the coating on good inkjet papers."
>
> As long as you don't kid yourself that those inkjet paper coatings couldn't
> possibly contain deleterious things they don't tell you about. In fact, you
> can probably bet on it!
>
>
> David Kachel
>
> ___________________
>
> Artist-Photographer
> Fine B&W Photographs
>
> www.davidkachel.com
> david@...
>
> Gallery:
> www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
> director@reddoorfinephotographs.com
>
> PO Box  1893
> Alpine, TX 79831
> (432) 386-5787
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by David Kachel

From:  Paul Roark

"dry-mounted glossy papers on foam-core"

PAUL!! Say it ain't so?!
Dry mount? Glossy? Foam core? My faith is shaken.
Maybe there's a twelve step group!

;-)


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by David Kachel

"E.Neilsen" wrote:

>And sure as  ..  after I ran those experiments, the sizing would change,

Eric, the changes you talk about to watercolor papers, wouldn't they
consist primarily of changes the manufacturers are forced to make in order
to make the paper characteristics come out the same in the aggregate from
batch to batch?


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by jimbo

You guys are much more knowledgeable then I that's for sure.. Product changes can be driven by many stimuli, David's view is certainly one of them but today I would think their are many others that are possible an probably affect the industry more.... Certainly the availability of certain materials or components change over time , changes could be driven for cost reasons, material availability reasons.. combinations of material availabity and cost reasons.. Could even be as simple as the wood materials that that are a primary component is different then 10/15 years ago.. Today much product comes from new growth trees not old growth.. They are not the same.. Logically I would think the world of paper making is continually changing and shall be forever. We can all get that they have a design target for their product but to assume that stands still I think would not be correct. 

jimbo
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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Kachel 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:24 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers


    
  "E.Neilsen" wrote:

  >And sure as .. after I ran those experiments, the sizing would change,

  Eric, the changes you talk about to watercolor papers, wouldn't they
  consist primarily of changes the manufacturers are forced to make in order
  to make the paper characteristics come out the same in the aggregate from
  batch to batch?

  David Kachel

  ___________________

  Artist-Photographer
  Fine B&W Photographs

  www.davidkachel.com
  david@...

  Gallery:
  www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
  director@...

  PO Box 1893
  Alpine, TX 79831
  (432) 386-5787



  
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by David Kachel

From:  jimbo

"Could even be as simple as the wood materials that that are a primary
component is different then 10/15 years ago."

Jimbo,

Though the general discussion is watercolor papers vs coated papers and
therefore, on the coated side of the discussion, does include some papers
made from wood pulp we aren't really talking about wood pulp papers.

Watercolor papers are made from cotton, not wood, and those manufacturers
who have been in the business, some for 500 years or more, know precisely
what they are doing when selecting raw materials.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by E.Neilsen

NO David, these would be changes based on current environmental  issues and
may be something that suits one intended use, but has unintended
consequences for other users. The former happens to platinum printers all
the time. We may find a paper that "works". And the manufacture will change
it based on it's intended use; watercolors, lith, monoprints, etc. The next
time you go to order it, it all appears the same, but a lengthy series of
phone calls reveals a change in this or that. sorry. .. Or as might happen
to glass. There was a glass used in printing that had a very specific
spectral transmission. PPG changed the transmission specs without consulting
platinum printers that were using it and having had our pieces of glass that
work fine as expected we saw no reason to order sheet after sheet since it
is just to hold the negative down, not travel with the piece, didn't think
any more about it. STOP!!! Someone else buys it and claims the glass doesn't
work . 
 same glass because it has the same name. NO  totally different from a
printers view point.
 
It can happen with papers too.  Same name, same general look but different
ingredients and the change takes place.    
 
Keep track of batch numbers while you can because they can help uncover a
change. 
 
 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
Let's Talk Photography
 
  _____  
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From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Kachel
Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 12:25 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers
 
  
"E.Neilsen" wrote:

>And sure as .. after I ran those experiments, the sizing would change,

Eric, the changes you talk about to watercolor papers, wouldn't they
consist primarily of changes the manufacturers are forced to make in order
to make the paper characteristics come out the same in the aggregate from
batch to batch?

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@... <mailto:david%40davidkachel.com> 

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...
<mailto:director%40reddoorfinephotographs.com> 

PO Box 1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by tboleyyh

I can certainly attest to these experiences... I used a paper for platinum many years back, one day suddenly it wouldn't work at all any more, no matter what I tried. I'm sure whatever changes they made did not affect it's intended use at all... drawing. It was a high end cotton fine art paper from one of the oldest companies.

Regarding any potential longevity advantage, I'd advise taking a look at the 2 Arches tests I submitted to Aardenburg a few years a go, both ABW and color. There is fade, and certainly some coated papers outperforming it in those tests. Of course there are other factors for effecting the life of a print that creates uneasiness regarding coated papers, delicacy, sucking everything terrible out of the atmosphere, etc etc.. But for the kind of conventional fade most of us are concerned with, and testing evaluates, I see no real advantage to uncoated papers.

I prefer uncoated papers, including Arches, for "some" of my projects, but for esthetic reasons, not longevity issues.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> NO David, these would be changes based on current environmental  issues and
> may be something that suits one intended use, but has unintended
> consequences for other users. The former happens to platinum printers all
> the time. We may find a paper that "works". And the manufacture will change
> it based on it's intended use; watercolors, lith, monoprints, etc. The next
> time you go to order it, it all appears the same, but a lengthy series of
> phone calls reveals a change in this or that. sorry. .. Or as might happen
> to glass. There was a glass used in printing that had a very specific
> spectral transmission. PPG changed the transmission specs without consulting
> platinum printers that were using it and having had our pieces of glass that
> work fine as expected we saw no reason to order sheet after sheet since it
> is just to hold the negative down, not travel with the piece, didn't think
> any more about it. STOP!!! Someone else buys it and claims the glass doesn't
> work . 
>  same glass because it has the same name. NO  totally different from a
> printers view point.
>  
> It can happen with papers too.  Same name, same general look but different
> ingredients and the change takes place.    
>  
> Keep track of batch numbers while you can because they can help uncover a
> change. 
>  
>  
> Eric Neilsen
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> Dallas, TX 75226
>  
> www.ericneilsenphotography.com
> skype me with ejprinter
> Let's Talk Photography
>  
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
> Kachel
> Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 12:25 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers
>  
>   
> "E.Neilsen" wrote:
> 
> >And sure as .. after I ran those experiments, the sizing would change,
> 
> Eric, the changes you talk about to watercolor papers, wouldn't they
> consist primarily of changes the manufacturers are forced to make in order
> to make the paper characteristics come out the same in the aggregate from
> batch to batch?
> 
> David Kachel
> 
> ___________________
> 
> Artist-Photographer
> Fine B&W Photographs
> 
> www.davidkachel.com
> david@... <mailto:david%40davidkachel.com> 
> 
> Gallery:
> www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
> director@...
> <mailto:director%40reddoorfinephotographs.com> 
> 
> PO Box 1893
> Alpine, TX 79831
> (432) 386-5787
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-14 by Don

David,

> 
> Watercolor papers are made from cotton, not wood, and those manufacturers
> who have been in the business, some for 500 years or more, know precisely
> what they are doing when selecting raw materials.

The general assumption is that watercolor papers are 100% cotton, but that is not always the case. Alpha cellulose papers can and are sold as watercolor paper. What you want are ligin and acid free cotton papers, however many Japanese papers are made from rice plant fibers or mulberry  wood and are highly regarded by fine art print makers and alt process printers.

In the case of alt. processes which are feric based such as platinum/palladium, kallitypes, agyrotyes, and van dyke brown the preferred pH is acidic. On the other hand water colorists prefer papers with an alkaline buffer. I'm not convinced that an alkaline buffered paper is good for ink jet printing as well as an acid paper. pH neutral would probably be the best solution for ink jet printing but the coating pH as well as the humidity will definitely play a role in any printing process.

So are you checking the paper pH? Are you controlling the humidity in your paper storage and printing area. How old are the papers you are using? These things are important. As Eric points out, smaller batches are probably prefered.

I've had ink jet papers yellow just sitting in sealed packages which was visible on the verso (or uncoated side of the paper) while the coated side remained white. These papers contained OBAs.

But I've also had buffered art papers (100% non alpha cellulose)change color with age. Which leads me to comment that all papers change color with age.  I believe Leonardo Di Vinci was quoted as saying, "Time and water change all things.", though I have yet been able to find the quote in print, so that attribution maybe legend. Yet the logic of the quote holds and is very applicable to printing papers.

>
You are claiming that watercolor papers are not
consistent, 
>

Yes.

>
therefore coated papers must be reliable?
>

No.

@Paul Roark

In the early days of giclee ateliers such as Nash Editions, ink jet printing was considered an alternative process. Now it has become mainstream. Typically only antiquarian printing techniques and process are considered alt. including silver gelatin.

I know the logic is that modern ink jet printing is a primarily carbon pigmented based so therefore there is a linkage to historical carbon pigmented printing but in my book that's bit of a stretch, not to mention dye based inks. I'm not suggesting that ink jet printing is passe or insignificant because of it's relatively short history; certainly artist/printers such as Richard Benson (being a widely known and highly regarded printer of many disciplines) has elevated ink jet printing to a fine art genre. And there are others of course in that elite group such as yourself, Tyler Boley, and Jon Cone. I'm just sayin ...

Regards,

Don Bryant

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-15 by David Kachel

From:  Don

"The general assumption is that watercolor papers are 100% cotton, but that
is not always the case. Alpha cellulose papers can and are sold as
watercolor paper. What you want are ligin and acid free cotton papers,
however many Japanese papers are made from rice plant fibers or mulberry
wood and are highly regarded by fine art print makers and alt process
printers."

Why are we going to the fringes here? OK, yes some wood pulp papers are
marketed as extra-cheap, dime store watercolor papers, because there is in
no legal definition of "watercolor paper". I fail to see how that is
relevant to the current discussion. No one reading this list is likely to
use a wood pulp watercolor paper since the very reason for using watercolor
papers is to avoid acidic wood papers.

And, Japanese papers are NOT made from rice plant fibers; never were. That
is a common misconception because of the often applied misnomer, "rice
paper."  They are also not made from mulberry wood, but rather, strictly
from the fibers of the internal side of the bark. The wood is not used at
all. I have tested quite a few Japanese papers and surprisingly, they were
all a bit acidic.

David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-15 by Paul

"Don" <donsbryant@...> wrote:


>... ink jet printing ... has become mainstream.

Only on coated papers and with standard inksets.

> Typically only antiquarian printing techniques and process are considered alt. including silver gelatin.

True, but I believe the reasons many bother with them is that it distinguishes their work.  Relative to standard inkjet printing, use of watercolor papers also is a way to distinguish one's work from the usual practices.


> I know the logic is that modern ink jet printing is a primarily carbon pigmented based so therefore there is a linkage to historical carbon pigmented printing but in my book that's bit of a stretch, ...


Although I could argue that 100% carbon pigment printing uses much the same image forming substance, I don't, in fact, make any particular reference to an old technology.  It's just not relevant, in my view.

My perspective is that doing something different that is seen as better in some respects by at least some people is a useful alternative to the standard practice.  In general parlance, perhaps mostly outside the traditional photographic field, the term "alternative" is often used to describe such practices.  (Alternative medicine and alternative brokers come to mind.)  

I think one can argue that printing with 100% carbon pigments on a paper like Arches watercolor paper is an "alternative" inkjet printing process.  It does not have the nostalgia element of many of the wet process "alternative" printing processes, but it does accomplish some of what I suspect many practitioners of alternative processes are after.  On the other hand, I assume most of them will take issue with this perspective.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-15 by E.Neilsen

"I think one can argue that printing with 100% carbon pigments on a paper
like Arches watercolor paper is an "alternative" inkjet printing process. It
does not have the nostalgia element of many of the wet process "alternative"
printing processes, but it does accomplish some of what I suspect many
practitioners of alternative processes are after. On the other hand, I
assume most of them will take issue with this perspective."  Paul said. 
 
I think phrased like that many would agree. It all depends on how they stake
that flag I think.  And from what I know about ink, some are cat ionic and
an ionic, so that might play a bit roll in what works better or worse with
some of the acidic or basic papers.  This is approaching the shake every
once in a while, and what's grain vs. what's fiber, vs. . Hey, look at this
, isn't it cool?  
 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
Let's Talk Photography
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-16 by Ernst Dinkla

On 07/14/2013 05:00 PM, E.Neilsen wrote:

> As to your yellowed edges, the coated papers for ink jet do have issues with
> pH changes and can go a very canary yellow in the wrong pH. In my experience
> it isn't just a slight change in OBAs, but a chemical reaction that is quite
> obvious. It is not even a direct contact issue, but an atmospheric issue
> within a general proximity. Keeping acidic papers, cardboard, cleaners, etc
> anywhere near the prints can put it over the tipping point.
>
> Eric Neilsen

Some papers shift beyond the warm color that can be expected if it had 
no OBAs aboard. The EEF showed that in Aardenburg testing. So there is 
more going on than OBA destruction.

I also think like you do that atmospheric issues can yellow papers with 
and without OBA content. The Entrada Bright White and Red River Aurora 
Bright samples bundled here in the same map with much more matte art 
paper samples showed yellow edges where the other papers didn't. Many 
more papers that stain due to possibly sulphur or nitrogen components in 
the air can be reversed back to a more white reflection with exposure to 
daylight. Which would be odd if it was the OBA being destructed that 
caused the yellowing. I have heard of similar yellowing with matte HM 
papers in Diasec mounting, waiting for the results on my advice to 
expose them to daylight which could be difficult as the front acrylic 
has a UV-cut filtering.

Then there is the odd phenomenon that Mark McCormick described with RC 
papers, after being exposed and then stored in the dark the white gets 
grey and can be reversed to white again with exposure to daylight but 
not totally and not with normal display light power if I recall it 
correctly.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: grainy appearance on watercolor papers

2013-07-16 by Ernst Dinkla

On 07/14/2013 10:09 PM, E.Neilsen wrote:
> NO David, these would be changes based on current environmental issues and
> may be something that suits one intended use, but has unintended
> consequences for other users. The former happens to platinum printers all
> the time. We may find a paper that "works". And the manufacture will change
> it based on it's intended use; watercolors, lith, monoprints, etc. The next
> time you go to order it, it all appears the same, but a lengthy series of
> phone calls reveals a change in this or that. sorry. .
> It can happen with papers too. Same name, same general look but different
> ingredients and the change takes place.
>
> Keep track of batch numbers while you can because they can help uncover a
> change.
>
>
> Eric Neilsen

Ecology restrictions may cause manufacturers to change their processes 
too. A lot more could change in time; cotton pulp sources, sizing, 
whitening agents, not to mention roll widths produced on different 
fourdriniers at different production facilities. On the other hand the 
process control in modern paper making factories will be much better 
than it was in the past. They know what is in every batch today. Testing 
of tensile strength, folding tests, bending tests, with changing 
humidity levels etc should reveal what the bond of the coating to the 
paper is and how papers compare on that aspect.  I wonder whether there 
exists an equivalent of the multiple knife test like used in the paint 
industry to check the bond of paints. There are more: 
http://www.astm.org/Standards/D6677.htm We simply do not get that 
information. When asked the usual answer is that there are manufacturing 
secrets and the mill exists for so many years so you should trust them. 
Sometimes I think the really modern high volume paper producers give 
more information on their products than the old mills do and process 
control may not be at the same level that the big companies have. I do 
not think this situation will change much in time.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2012: 500+ inkjet media paper white spectral plots.

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