Digital BW, The Print

Hello All,

I've been mostly lurking for a long time, not much to say, just happily making prints.  However I just discovered something and wrote to Paul Roark about it and he asked me to post it here.

While doing some cleaning I found a stack of old work prints from approximately 6 years ago.  Some of them were printed on Museo Silver Rag using my R2400 and PK ink.  I bought that printer in August 2005, and I remember that SR became available some time after that and I began experimenting with the paper.  So that roughly dates these prints to early 2006-ish or so (after some experimenting with SR and several other PK papers I went back to MK and matte papers).

There are 5 SR prints, small prints with about 1/2" to 3/4" borders.  They were in the middle of about a 5 inch stack of prints on a variety of matte papers.  All five have yellowed borders.  The yellowing extends inward from all four edges from 1/8 to 1/4 inch and feathers into white (no hard edges), so whatever caused the yellowing appears to have worked its way in from the edges while in the stack. The yellowing appears on both the front and back.  I'm not a smoker and this room is air conditioned most of the time (I'm in South Florida, so even with A/C there is some humidity).  None of the matte prints in the stack had any yellowing.

Today I sent some of these prints to Paul, so perhaps he will add his thoughts here after he examines them.

Last fall my trusty R2400 died after 6+ years and was replaced by an R3000.  I have some things to report about it but will put it in a different thread.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 3.0   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Take the print and expose it to direct sunlight for a few hours, the yellow should lesson if not completely disappear. It is a airborne or contact contamination. I think silver rag has been redesigned since then, it should happen at a lesser degree now.

Were the prints near corrugated cardboard or shipping tape?

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Aug 22, 2012, at 7:01 PM, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:

> Hello All,
> 
> I've been mostly lurking for a long time, not much to say, just happily making prints.  However I just discovered something and wrote to Paul Roark about it and he asked me to post it here.
> 
> While doing some cleaning I found a stack of old work prints from approximately 6 years ago.  Some of them were printed on Museo Silver Rag using my R2400 and PK ink.  I bought that printer in August 2005, and I remember that SR became available some time after that and I began experimenting with the paper.  So that roughly dates these prints to early 2006-ish or so (after some experimenting with SR and several other PK papers I went back to MK and matte papers).
> 
> There are 5 SR prints, small prints with about 1/2" to 3/4" borders.  They were in the middle of about a 5 inch stack of prints on a variety of matte papers.  All five have yellowed borders.  The yellowing extends inward from all four edges from 1/8 to 1/4 inch and feathers into white (no hard edges), so whatever caused the yellowing appears to have worked its way in from the edges while in the stack. The yellowing appears on both the front and back.  I'm not a smoker and this room is air conditioned most of the time (I'm in South Florida, so even with A/C there is some humidity).  None of the matte prints in the stack had any yellowing.
> 
> Today I sent some of these prints to Paul, so perhaps he will add his thoughts here after he examines them.
> 
> Last fall my trusty R2400 died after 6+ years and was replaced by an R3000.  I have some things to report about it but will put it in a different thread.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 3.0   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>

Clayton- were the prints protected with any kind of Inkjet spray? I believe it's fairly safe to say that if Inkjet prints are not protected then they are likely to yellow.

Cleaning chemicals will cause yellowing.


Thanks,

Charles



________________________________

 From: ClaytonJ <cj@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 4:01 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Silver Rag Yellowing
 

  
Hello All,

I've been mostly lurking for a long time, not much to say, just happily making prints.  However I just discovered something and wrote to Paul Roark about it and he asked me to post it here.

While doing some cleaning I found a stack of old work prints from approximately 6 years ago.  Some of them were printed on Museo Silver Rag using my R2400 and PK ink.  I bought that printer in August 2005, and I remember that SR became available some time after that and I began experimenting with the paper.  So that roughly dates these prints to early 2006-ish or so (after some experimenting with SR and several other PK papers I went back to MK and matte papers).

There are 5 SR prints, small prints with about 1/2" to 3/4" borders.  They were in the middle of about a 5 inch stack of prints on a variety of matte papers.  All five have yellowed borders.  The yellowing extends inward from all four edges from 1/8 to 1/4 inch and feathers into white (no hard edges), so whatever caused the yellowing appears to have worked its way in from the edges while in the stack. The yellowing appears on both the front and back.  I'm not a smoker and this room is air conditioned most of the time (I'm in South Florida, so even with A/C there is some humidity).  None of the matte prints in the stack had any yellowing.

Today I sent some of these prints to Paul, so perhaps he will add his thoughts here after he examines them.

Last fall my trusty R2400 died after 6+ years and was replaced by an R3000.  I have some things to report about it but will put it in a different thread.

Regards,
Clayton

Info on black and white digital printing at 
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 3.0   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Mark,

>Take the print and expose it to direct sunlight for a few hours, the yellow should lesson if not completely disappear. It is a airborne or contact contamination. 

Ok, I'll try that tomorrow.


>I think silver rag has been redesigned since then, it should happen at a lesser degree now.

That would be nice.

 
> Were the prints near corrugated cardboard or shipping tape?

Hard to say.  When I found them they were on a bookshelf about 5' up, but I doubt that's where they've been for six years.  Elves come into my work room at night and move things around.  But I doubt it because none of the stacks I see around me are in cardboard boxes, and there's no shipping tape in here.  I do all my packaging in another room.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 3.0   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Hello Charles,

>Clayton- were the prints protected with any kind of Inkjet spray? 

No, I've never used any of those.


>I believe it's fairly safe to say that if Inkjet prints are not protected then they are likely to yellow.

I'm very familiar with the yellowing caused by adhesives and other  chemicals that off-gas from surrounding materials.  I doubt that was the cause in this case because matte papers are especially sensitive to this.  Those 5 SR prints were deep down in a 5" stack of matte prints, none of which showed any yellowing.  Whatever the cause, it had no effect on the matte prints in the stack.  It's an interesting mystery.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 3.0   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

It can be anything. Particle board shelves, copy machine gases, carpets, etc. Or the Elves.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com


On Aug 22, 2012, at 8:02 PM, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:

> Hard to say.  When I found them they were on a bookshelf about 5' up, but I doubt that's where they've been for six years.  Elves come into my work room at night and move things around.  But I doubt it because none of the stacks I see around me are in cardboard boxes, and there's no shipping tape in here.  I do all my packaging in another room.

This reminds me of the early reports of Epson "Archival Matte" yellowing in 6 months of Florida display.  The heat and humidity there seems to show the weaknesses of our papers before the rest of us see anything.

Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:
>
> Take the print and expose it to direct sunlight for a few hours, the yellow should lesson if not completely disappear.

Great, just what we want to do with our prints, and just what we want to tell our customers.

> It is a airborne or contact contamination. I think silver rag has been redesigned since then, it should happen at a lesser degree now.

I think we need to know exactly what is going on.  Is it an acidic reaction or some airborne pollution?  

I ripped open a Museo Silver Rag and tested the interior paper (again) with my acid test pen, and the interior paper seems to be well buffered.  The coated surface is not, which I think is rather typical of these types of papers.  

I've seen edge yellowing on my stored silver prints, presumably from air-borne acids.  However, with the buffered inkjet papers, this problem was, hopefully, taken care of.  I doubt the interior paper is being attacked by acids, but I don't know.

From my perspective, it's one more piece of evidence that we really have no idea how long these inkjet papers are going to last.  Thanks to http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ we have lots of information about image fading, but that is only part of the story.  If the substrate fails, the lightfastness of the image on it becomes rather irrelevant.  

At this point, I'm not sure I have any more confidence in the longevity of the inkjet glossy papers than I did in the wet darkroom RC papers.  I have slightly more confidence in the matte inkjet papers, but I don't really trust the coatings on them either. 

Once again, I must say the 100% carbon pigment images on Arches watercolor paper that hang on my walls make me very happy.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Clayton,

There is now a discussion about Museo Silver Rag on the LL forum. A 
representative of Museo/Intelicoat is involved:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=b10b7470f473315dbd9e4a732b7c9987&topic=69272.0

About the more recent changes in that paper and the claim it is back to 
old standards which sounds like an invitation to add your experience. 
The information there suggests that the new paper base is no longer made 
by Crane.

Is the yellowing happening more on the coating side or more on the paper 
base? Did it transfer to the papers directly in contact with the MSR? I 
think sulphur contamination or something like plasticizer evaporating 
from PVC etc would harm more papers in that bundle. A bad gelatine or 
PVA in the inkjet coating or paper sizing with biological impurities 
right from the manufacturing stahe and that Florida climate (despite the 
AC) could do a more selective destruction in time. Could even have been 
bad water in production.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

Hi Clayton-

Any chance those print stacks were put into the room (whenever that 
was), shortly after it was painted, stained etc?

Long ago and far away, when I was doing research on silver-based prints, 
I found that oil-based paints, varnishes, etc. can outgas for as long as 
a year.  Latex/acrylics do so for about 30 days.

Seth

Even if any of the environmental factors apply, the other paper in the same
place was not effected, right?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

LOL. It's funny how everyone falls head over heals about pigment archivability when most likely half or more of all digital coatings in 'archival' paper will fail well before the ink. Kind'of an elephant in the room.

W

-------------------
Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451

On Aug 23, 2012, at 3:12 AM, Ernst Dinkla <e.dinkla@...> wrote:

> Clayton,
> 
> There is now a discussion about Museo Silver Rag on the LL forum. A 
> representative of Museo/Intelicoat is involved:
> 
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=b10b7470f473315dbd9e4a732b7c9987&topic=69272.0
> 
> About the more recent changes in that paper and the claim it is back to 
> old standards which sounds like an invitation to add your experience. 
> The information there suggests that the new paper base is no longer made 
> by Crane.
> 
> Is the yellowing happening more on the coating side or more on the paper 
> base? Did it transfer to the papers directly in contact with the MSR? I 
> think sulphur contamination or something like plasticizer evaporating 
> from PVC etc would harm more papers in that bundle. A bad gelatine or 
> PVA in the inkjet coating or paper sizing with biological impurities 
> right from the manufacturing stahe and that Florida climate (despite the 
> AC) could do a more selective destruction in time. Could even have been 
> bad water in production.
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
> 
> Dinkla Grafische Techniek
> Quad, piëzografie, giclée
> www.pigment-print.com
> 
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

But we have seen this happen with silver gelatin prints too. Nothing new. Its all about bad air, the same air WE are breathing, yikes!

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:53 AM, Walker Blackwell wrote:

> LOL. It's funny how everyone falls head over heals about pigment archivability when most likely half or more of all digital coatings in 'archival' paper will fail well before the ink. Kind'of an elephant in the room.
> 
> W
> 
> -------------------
> Walker Blackwell
> 802.821.4451

I am wondering if it has to do with optical brighteners which are added to some papers.  I am moving away from Epson Exhibition paper for this reason.  In test it yellows very quickly.

After making color digital ink prints for twenty years, it seems like we haven't gotten far from the lasting ability of Fuji Crystal Archive darkroom paper.  For Exhibition paper it is a similar forty years.  And the cost; up over three times!

I am looking into a better semi-gloss fiber based paper.  ANY SUGGESTIONS?

Ben

Sent from my iPad

Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Aug 23, 2012, at 1:50 PM, Ben Schneider wrote:

> I am looking into a better semi-gloss fiber based paper.  ANY SUGGESTIONS?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Canson Platine Fibre Rag



________________________________

From: Mark Savoia <mark@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, August 23, 2012 10:55:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Silver Rag Yellowing

  
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Aug 23, 2012, at 1:50 PM, Ben Schneider wrote:

> I am looking into a better semi-gloss fiber based paper.  ANY SUGGESTIONS?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 08/23/2012 07:50 PM, Ben Schneider wrote:
> I am wondering if it has to do with optical brighteners which are added
> to some papers.

The Museo Silver Rag has no OBAs.

  I am moving away from Epson Exhibition paper for this
> reason. In test it yellows very quickly.

Worst tested paper white stability at Aardenburg, counting all papers 
there, including RC papers. The OBAs not only loose their function but 
yellow themselves so the yellowing goes beyond the "natural" paper white 
of a paper.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

Will that extreme exposure to sunlight fix it?

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Aug 23, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> On 08/23/2012 07:50 PM, Ben Schneider wrote:
>> I am wondering if it has to do with optical brighteners which are added
>> to some papers.
> 
> The Museo Silver Rag has no OBAs.
> 
>  I am moving away from Epson Exhibition paper for this
>> reason. In test it yellows very quickly.
> 
> Worst tested paper white stability at Aardenburg, counting all papers 
> there, including RC papers. The OBAs not only loose their function but 
> yellow themselves so the yellowing goes beyond the "natural" paper white 
> of a paper.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
> 
> Dinkla Grafische Techniek
> Quad, piëzografie, giclée
> www.pigment-print.com

Mark,

As far as I know exposure to sunlight solves the air (sulphur) 
contamination of (matte) coated papers.
I can imagine a short illuminated revival when the last OBA is burned 
out by sunlight :-) but after that there is nothing left of the OBA 
fluorescent effect.
You should ask Mark McCormick what kind of chemistry is left in the 
paper after OBA degradation and whether he can expose his tested samples 
to sunlight to see what happens. My best guess is that it will not bring 
back the paper white it had when first printed.


On 08/23/2012 10:42 PM, Mark Savoia wrote:
> Will that extreme exposure to sunlight fix it?
>
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
>
> On Aug 23, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:
>
>  > On 08/23/2012 07:50 PM, Ben Schneider wrote:
>  >> I am wondering if it has to do with optical brighteners which are added
>  >> to some papers.
>  >
>  > The Museo Silver Rag has no OBAs.
>  >
>  > I am moving away from Epson Exhibition paper for this
>  >> reason. In test it yellows very quickly.
>  >
>  > Worst tested paper white stability at Aardenburg, counting all papers
>  > there, including RC papers. The OBAs not only loose their function but
>  > yellow themselves so the yellowing goes beyond the "natural" paper white
>  > of a paper.
>  >
>  >
>  > --
>  > Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst



-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

Not all that makes fabrics yellow in time can happen to prints but some 
effects will be very similar, google this:
exvita.com Overview-of-Fabric-Yellowing
is a short PDF on the subject

-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

Hello Ernst,

> There is now a discussion about Museo Silver Rag on the LL forum.

Thanks, I'll have a look.

>Is the yellowing happening more on the coating side or more on the paper base?

I don't have any sort of instrument to measure the color or intensity, but to my eye the yellowing is equal on the back uncoated side.  It occurs on all four edges equally.  As for intensity, it is not bright yellow (it doesn't look at all like the bright chemical yellowing we used to see on H. Photo Rag, for example), but is rather faint, but distinct.  The hue is yellow, not brownish.


>Did it transfer to the papers directly in contact with the MSR?

I don't think so, I checked the others again.  I don't know which prints were the ones in direct contact, but none of them have yellowing like these five.  Some are dirty and have some odd stain spots (one looks like something was spilled on it), but nothing like the even 4-border effect of these five.  When I found the stack I stopped work and sat down to examine the prints, which brought back a lot of memories.  The stack was about 5" tall.  The 5 MSR prints were together, and down at about the 2" level, so it took awhile to get to them.  The yellowing is distinct enough that I had an immediate reaction when I saw the first one.  None of the matte prints had the yellowing.  They were on a variety of papers, both OBA and non-OBA versions (VFA, Condor BW, Soft Textured Art, EEM, Photo Rag, Aurora Art, etc).


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 3.0   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Hello Seth,

Sorry for my late reply, I kept getting the "Error 999" message for a couple of days every time I tried to post.

>Any chance those print stacks were put into the room (whenever that
>was), shortly after it was painted, stained etc?

No, the room was last painted in 1999.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 3.0   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

> Even if any of the environmental factors apply, the other paper in >the same place was not effected, right?

Yes. Every other print in the 5" stack was matte paper (several brands, OBA and non-OBA), and none of them had the yellowing.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 3.0   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

On 08/25/2012 09:38 PM, ClaytonJ wrote:
> Hello Ernst,
>
>  > There is now a discussion about Museo Silver Rag on the LL forum.
>
> Thanks, I'll have a look.
>
>  >Is the yellowing happening more on the coating side or more on the
> paper base?
>
> I don't have any sort of instrument to measure the color or intensity,
> but to my eye the yellowing is equal on the back uncoated side. It
> occurs on all four edges equally. As for intensity, it is not bright
> yellow (it doesn't look at all like the bright chemical yellowing we
> used to see on H. Photo Rag, for example), but is rather faint, but
> distinct. The hue is yellow, not brownish.
>
>  >Did it transfer to the papers directly in contact with the MSR?
>
> I don't think so, I checked the others again. I don't know which prints
> were the ones in direct contact, but none of them have yellowing like
> these five. Some are dirty and have some odd stain spots (one looks like
> something was spilled on it), but nothing like the even 4-border effect
> of these five. When I found the stack I stopped work and sat down to
> examine the prints, which brought back a lot of memories. The stack was
> about 5" tall. The 5 MSR prints were together, and down at about the 2"
> level, so it took awhile to get to them. The yellowing is distinct
> enough that I had an immediate reaction when I saw the first one. None
> of the matte prints had the yellowing. They were on a variety of papers,
> both OBA and non-OBA versions (VFA, Condor BW, Soft Textured Art, EEM,
> Photo Rag, Aurora Art, etc).
>
> Regards,
> Clayton

Hello Clayton,

It must have been something that was in that paper from the beginning. I 
presume you did not rinse that paper for some reason. A sprayed varnish 
would show on one side only. Contamination, particles from the air 
around it, packaging etc most likely would have affected the other 
papers in the stack. Biological processes usually are not contained 
within the paper itself but transfer byproducts to the other papers in 
contact. If it is all around the edges light may not be the cause but 
more likely oxygen etc. Light would be less even around the edges with a 
stack in a bookshelf.

Sizing of the paper or an anti-curl coating at the back with the same 
bad binder as used in the top coating. Bad batches of cotton fiber. 
Exposure to daylight might work if it is a sulfur or nitrogen effect. If 
it was oxygen or light it could worsen the effect. Nothing wasted to try 
that with one sheet, I guess.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

Hello Ernst,

I'm sorry, I don't quite get what you mean...


> It must have been something that was in that paper from the 
>beginning. I  presume you did not rinse that paper for some reason. 

Rinse?  I haven't rinsed (or washed) prints since the darkroom days.  Not sure what you mean.


>A sprayed varnish would show on one side only. Contamination, 
>particles from the air around it, packaging etc most likely would >have affected the other 
> papers in the stack. Biological processes usually are not contained 
> within the paper itself but transfer byproducts to the other papers in 
> contact. If it is all around the edges light may not be the cause but 
> more likely oxygen etc. Light would be less even around the edges with a 
> stack in a bookshelf.
> 
> Sizing of the paper or an anti-curl coating at the back with the same 
> bad binder as used in the top coating. Bad batches of cotton fiber. 
> Exposure to daylight might work if it is a sulfur or nitrogen effect. If 
> it was oxygen or light it could worsen the effect. 

>Nothing wasted to try that with one sheet, I guess.

Try what?  Sorry to be so dense but I think I'm missing something.

Paul should have received the prints by now, perhaps he will have some comments...


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 3.0   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Hello Again,

> Exposure to daylight might work if it is a sulfur or nitrogen effect. If it was oxygen or light it could worsen the effect. Nothing wasted to try that with one sheet, I guess.

Ok, now I got it (I think I need a nap).  I'll put one on the windowsill.  It will get strong daylight but no direct sun.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 3.0   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Needs direct sun.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Aug 27, 2012, at 2:11 PM, ClaytonJ wrote:

> Hello Again,
> 
>> Exposure to daylight might work if it is a sulfur or nitrogen effect. If it was oxygen or light it could worsen the effect. Nothing wasted to try that with one sheet, I guess.
> 
> Ok, now I got it (I think I need a nap).  I'll put one on the windowsill.  It will get strong daylight but no direct sun.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
>

Clayton Jones wrote:
>
> ...
> While doing some cleaning I found a stack of old work prints from approximately 6 years ago.  Some of them were printed on Museo Silver Rag ...
> There are 5 SR prints, small prints with about 1/2" to 3/4" borders.  They were in the middle of about a 5 inch stack of prints on a variety of matte papers.  All five have yellowed borders.  The yellowing extends inward from all four edges from 1/8 to 1/4 inch and feathers into white (no hard edges), so whatever caused the yellowing appears to have worked its way in from the edges while in the stack. The yellowing appears on both the front and back.  I'm not a smoker and this room is air conditioned most of the time (I'm in South Florida, so even with A/C there is some humidity).  None of the matte prints in the stack had any yellowing.
> ...



Clayton was good enough to send me a couple of samples of the yellowed Museo Silver Rag.  I don't have the chemistry background or tools to know what caused it, but here are my observations:


The spectro measures the outside 1/4 inch of the front paper margin as
having a Lab B of from about 4.5 to 5.1.  The inside of the 3/4" paper
margin, closest to the image and furthest away from the edge of the
paper, has a Lab B of 2.1 to 2.4.  The back side of the paper shows a
similar pattern, although the Lab B values range from 3.3 at the edge
to 1.2 in the interior.  So the effect is on both surfaces, but worst
on the front.

The yellowing looks a lot like what I saw on the backs of some stored
silver prints (fiber paper), that, I believe had been attacked by
airborne acids, possibly put out by other paper in the metal cabinet.

I used my pH test pen on the samples and found that the surfaces of
the Museo were probably somewhat acidic -- definitely not buffered.
The interior paper of the Museo did appear to still have a good amount
of buffering in it.  The surfaces of the matte papers were well
buffered.  I then tested the surfaces of newer Museo I had.  These
newer ones did appear to be buffered or otherwise tested as having a
surface with a relatively high pH.

All of this does not prove that we're dealing with acid attack, but it
is consistent with that hypothesis.

I'm not sure what would be on the surfaces of the paper that would
yellow.  We usually think of the yellowing being of the paper
cellulose fibers being attacked by acids.  With these glossy "papers,"
the paper is actually in the interior and separated from the surfaces,
usually by polyethylene. In the case of the Museo, the interior paper
appeared to be well buffered and quite different than the surfaces.

It appears polyethylene can also yellow.  It looks like inappropriate
materials combined with oxides of nitrogen in the air are
possibilities.  See
http://www.tencate.com/8776/TenCate/TenCate-Grass/Region-EMEA/English/en-Grass/Products-amp-Services/Product-advisory/Gas-fading

I suspect these more "advanced" "baryta" glossy papers are still a
form of RC paper.  Something is certainly separating the well-buffered
interior paper from the front and back surfaces, and I'd guess it is
the usual polyethylene or a close relative of it. 

Again, I can't say what caused the yellowing, but it is clearly there, and its pattern suggests an airborne chemical played a part in the process.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Viruses (organic) hang onto paper for a very long time.
On Aug 27, 2012 3:47 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <e.dinkla@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> On 08/25/2012 09:38 PM, ClaytonJ wrote:
> > Hello Ernst,
> >
> > > There is now a discussion about Museo Silver Rag on the LL forum.
> >
> > Thanks, I'll have a look.
> >
> > >Is the yellowing happening more on the coating side or more on the
> > paper base?
> >
> > I don't have any sort of instrument to measure the color or intensity,
> > but to my eye the yellowing is equal on the back uncoated side. It
> > occurs on all four edges equally. As for intensity, it is not bright
> > yellow (it doesn't look at all like the bright chemical yellowing we
> > used to see on H. Photo Rag, for example), but is rather faint, but
> > distinct. The hue is yellow, not brownish.
> >
> > >Did it transfer to the papers directly in contact with the MSR?
> >
> > I don't think so, I checked the others again. I don't know which prints
> > were the ones in direct contact, but none of them have yellowing like
> > these five. Some are dirty and have some odd stain spots (one looks like
> > something was spilled on it), but nothing like the even 4-border effect
> > of these five. When I found the stack I stopped work and sat down to
> > examine the prints, which brought back a lot of memories. The stack was
> > about 5" tall. The 5 MSR prints were together, and down at about the 2"
> > level, so it took awhile to get to them. The yellowing is distinct
> > enough that I had an immediate reaction when I saw the first one. None
> > of the matte prints had the yellowing. They were on a variety of papers,
> > both OBA and non-OBA versions (VFA, Condor BW, Soft Textured Art, EEM,
> > Photo Rag, Aurora Art, etc).
> >
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
>
> Hello Clayton,
>
> It must have been something that was in that paper from the beginning. I
> presume you did not rinse that paper for some reason. A sprayed varnish
> would show on one side only. Contamination, particles from the air
> around it, packaging etc most likely would have affected the other
> papers in the stack. Biological processes usually are not contained
> within the paper itself but transfer byproducts to the other papers in
> contact. If it is all around the edges light may not be the cause but
> more likely oxygen etc. Light would be less even around the edges with a
> stack in a bookshelf.
>
> Sizing of the paper or an anti-curl coating at the back with the same
> bad binder as used in the top coating. Bad batches of cotton fiber.
> Exposure to daylight might work if it is a sulfur or nitrogen effect. If
> it was oxygen or light it could worsen the effect. Nothing wasted to try
> that with one sheet, I guess.
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
>
> Dinkla Grafische Techniek
> Quad, pi�zografie, gicl�e
> www.pigment-print.com
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Another question for Clayton.

With Paul's finding, was there a medium to high use laser printer (I'm 
reaching, like everyone) in the room.  Especially, an older one?  
Although, minor their ozone production can cause both nitric and formic 
acid in the air.

Seth

On 09/05/2012 06:57 PM, Paul wrote:
>
>
> Clayton Jones wrote:
>  >
>  > ...
>  > While doing some cleaning I found a stack of old work prints from
> approximately 6 years ago. Some of them were printed on Museo Silver Rag ...
>  > There are 5 SR prints, small prints with about 1/2" to 3/4" borders.
> They were in the middle of about a 5 inch stack of prints on a variety
> of matte papers. All five have yellowed borders. The yellowing extends
> inward from all four edges from 1/8 to 1/4 inch and feathers into white
> (no hard edges), so whatever caused the yellowing appears to have worked
> its way in from the edges while in the stack. The yellowing appears on
> both the front and back. I'm not a smoker and this room is air
> conditioned most of the time (I'm in South Florida, so even with A/C
> there is some humidity). None of the matte prints in the stack had any
> yellowing.
>  > ...
>
> Clayton was good enough to send me a couple of samples of the yellowed
> Museo Silver Rag. I don't have the chemistry background or tools to know
> what caused it, but here are my observations:
>
> The spectro measures the outside 1/4 inch of the front paper margin as
> having a Lab B of from about 4.5 to 5.1. The inside of the 3/4" paper
> margin, closest to the image and furthest away from the edge of the
> paper, has a Lab B of 2.1 to 2.4. The back side of the paper shows a
> similar pattern, although the Lab B values range from 3.3 at the edge
> to 1.2 in the interior. So the effect is on both surfaces, but worst
> on the front.
>
> The yellowing looks a lot like what I saw on the backs of some stored
> silver prints (fiber paper), that, I believe had been attacked by
> airborne acids, possibly put out by other paper in the metal cabinet.
>
> I used my pH test pen on the samples and found that the surfaces of
> the Museo were probably somewhat acidic -- definitely not buffered.
> The interior paper of the Museo did appear to still have a good amount
> of buffering in it. The surfaces of the matte papers were well
> buffered. I then tested the surfaces of newer Museo I had. These
> newer ones did appear to be buffered or otherwise tested as having a
> surface with a relatively high pH.
>
> All of this does not prove that we're dealing with acid attack, but it
> is consistent with that hypothesis.
>
> I'm not sure what would be on the surfaces of the paper that would
> yellow. We usually think of the yellowing being of the paper
> cellulose fibers being attacked by acids. With these glossy "papers,"
> the paper is actually in the interior and separated from the surfaces,
> usually by polyethylene. In the case of the Museo, the interior paper
> appeared to be well buffered and quite different than the surfaces.
>
> It appears polyethylene can also yellow. It looks like inappropriate
> materials combined with oxides of nitrogen in the air are
> possibilities. See
> http://www.tencate.com/8776/TenCate/TenCate-Grass/Region-EMEA/English/en-Grass/Products-amp-Services/Product-advisory/Gas-fading
>
> I suspect these more "advanced" "baryta" glossy papers are still a
> form of RC paper. Something is certainly separating the well-buffered
> interior paper from the front and back surfaces, and I'd guess it is
> the usual polyethylene or a close relative of it.
>
> Again, I can't say what caused the yellowing, but it is clearly there,
> and its pattern suggests an airborne chemical played a part in the process.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

True RC papers with PE barriers show their structure when you immerse a 
5mm wide strip in hot water for half a minute and then pull at both 
sides of strip. Typical foil deformation happens then. After that you 
can dissect that paper by rubbing off the coating and paper fibers, 
usually a milky white PE front barrier is left and a transparent PE back 
barrier. Applied in the paper base manufacturing like lamination foils 
are applied.

A cheaper grade has a kind of resin coating as barrier(s), more elastic 
than the polyethylene and it breaks up wire wise like a contact glue 
would when separated. Probably spray coated in manufacturing or rolled on.

I do not see any of that in my sample of Museo Silver Rag. It is paper 
fiber throughout with coating on top and most likely an anti-curl 
coating at the back.

Your acidity theory is a good one but I would suggest; a good buffered 
cotton paper base has been used and that particular batch had coatings 
applied on both sides that were not buffered.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

Hello Seth,

> Another question for Clayton.
> 
> With Paul's finding, was there a medium to high use laser printer >(I'm reaching, like everyone) in the room.  Especially, an older one?  
> Although, minor their ozone production can cause both nitric and 
>formic acid in the air.

No, there were only ink jet printers: the 2400, an R200 (now gone), and an HP 6122 (a general office printer, old faithful, still running).


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 3.0   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

With the Silver Rag Yellowing thread in mind I went through my 
collection of SpectrumViz paper samples gathered in 6 binder maps. Maybe 
250 samples of the Matte Art, Fiber/Baryta, Ori\ufffdntal, RC category. Porch 
shadow daylight inspection, so ample UV light. 2 samples showed 
yellowing at the edges in that light but little with other light 
sources: Moab Entrada Rag Bright 190 and 300 gsm. Light entering the 
binder maps in their boxes obviously the cause of the yellowing in this 
case.

Plain inkjet paper qualities showed more yellow edges in general but 
some sample were more than 10 years old. Not meant for quality prints 
either.

Two papers had had insects moving around it seems, a small yellow path 
was traced on them, probably secretion of the insects left in the paper. 
I have also a bare print upstairs with a nice blue sky that shows 
identical traces in that blue, they probably loved the color.

All in all I am not unhappy with the results, most paper samples are in 
the binders for about 4 years now. Air exposure is higher than when 
framed, light exposure is reduced and uneven but every binder is at 
least twice a month opened for one reason or another.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

And the funny part is how everyone had been focusing on ink archivability for the past 15 years. 

It's really about the paper. It's the elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about.

Walker

-------------------
Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451

On Sep 13, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Ernst Dinkla <e.dinkla@...> wrote:

> With the Silver Rag Yellowing thread in mind I went through my 
> collection of SpectrumViz paper samples gathered in 6 binder maps. Maybe 
> 250 samples of the Matte Art, Fiber/Baryta, Oriëntal, RC category. Porch 
> shadow daylight inspection, so ample UV light. 2 samples showed 
> yellowing at the edges in that light but little with other light 
> sources: Moab Entrada Rag Bright 190 and 300 gsm. Light entering the 
> binder maps in their boxes obviously the cause of the yellowing in this 
> case.
> 
> Plain inkjet paper qualities showed more yellow edges in general but 
> some sample were more than 10 years old. Not meant for quality prints 
> either.
> 
> Two papers had had insects moving around it seems, a small yellow path 
> was traced on them, probably secretion of the insects left in the paper. 
> I have also a bare print upstairs with a nice blue sky that shows 
> identical traces in that blue, they probably loved the color.
> 
> All in all I am not unhappy with the results, most paper samples are in 
> the binders for about 4 years now. Air exposure is higher than when 
> framed, light exposure is reduced and uneven but every binder is at 
> least twice a month opened for one reason or another.
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
> 
> Dinkla Grafische Techniek
> Quad, piëzografie, giclée
> www.pigment-print.com
> 
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Walker Blackwell <forums@...>
Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, September 13, 2012 10:36 AM
To: "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com"
<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Paper Edges Yellowing

It's really about the paper. It's the elephant in the room that nobody wants
to talk about.


How about papers with sprayed-on surfaces, UV protection, etc. Anybody have
any stockpiles of those they can check?


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Is this better or worse than Epson Enhanced Matte?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <e.dinkla@...> wrote:

>
> With the Silver Rag Yellowing thread in mind I went through my 
> collection of SpectrumViz paper samples gathered in 6 binder maps. Maybe 
> 250 samples of the Matte Art, Fiber/Baryta, Oriëntal, RC category. Porch 
> shadow daylight inspection, so ample UV light. 2 samples showed 
> yellowing at the edges in that light but little with other light 
> sources: Moab Entrada Rag Bright 190 and 300 gsm. Light entering the 
> binder maps in their boxes obviously the cause of the yellowing in this 
> case.
> 
> Plain inkjet paper qualities showed more yellow edges in general but 
> some sample were more than 10 years old. Not meant for quality prints 
> either.
> 
> Two papers had had insects moving around it seems, a small yellow path 
> was traced on them, probably secretion of the insects left in the paper. 
> I have also a bare print upstairs with a nice blue sky that shows 
> identical traces in that blue, they probably loved the color.
> 
> All in all I am not unhappy with the results, most paper samples are in 
> the binders for about 4 years now. Air exposure is higher than when 
> framed, light exposure is reduced and uneven but every binder is at 
> least twice a month opened for one reason or another.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
> 
> Dinkla Grafische Techniek
> Quad, piëzografie, giclée
> www.pigment-print.com
>

On 09/13/2012 05:47 PM, orbancc wrote:
> Is this better or worse than Epson Enhanced Matte?

The two Moab Entrada Rag Bright papers were worse than the Epson 
Enhanced Matte sample in the same binder. This was not a very scientific 
test, papers were not put in that binder at the same time etc. The EEM 
was however older than the MERB samples.
I did not check an overall discoloration of a sample just whether there 
was a change at the edges compared to the center like what happens with 
old bookpages.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

Thanks for that information.  

I've printed a lot on EEM (20,000 or so pieces).  I have seen only a couple with EEM yellowing, but not recently and not enough to freak me out (much).  I think I will carry on.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <e.dinkla@...> wrote:

>
> On 09/13/2012 05:47 PM, orbancc wrote:
> > Is this better or worse than Epson Enhanced Matte?
> 
> The two Moab Entrada Rag Bright papers were worse than the Epson 
> Enhanced Matte sample in the same binder. This was not a very scientific 
> test, papers were not put in that binder at the same time etc. The EEM 
> was however older than the MERB samples.
> I did not check an overall discoloration of a sample just whether there 
> was a change at the edges compared to the center like what happens with 
> old bookpages.
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
> 
> Dinkla Grafische Techniek
> Quad, piëzografie, giclée
> www.pigment-print.com
>

On 09/13/2012 10:07 PM, orbancc wrote:
> Thanks for that information.
>
> I've printed a lot on EEM (20,000 or so pieces). I have seen only a
> couple with EEM yellowing, but not recently and not enough to freak me
> out (much). I think I will carry on.

Then I guess you will know all its name changes. Before it was called 
Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte, it was called Enhanced Matte 
Paper, and before that it was called Epson Archival Matte Paper. Epson 
changed the name because it was not archival as tested by Wilhelm 
Research and that did not change with the last name it has. See 
Aardenburg-Imaging testing, the paper color patch changed much faster 
than the ink patches (Epson K3).

Sample # AaI_20071219_SN001

As written I looked for paper edge yellowing like happened with 
Clayton's Museo Silver Rag and not for an overall paper color change. I 
am sure that the Moab Entrada Rag Bright would do worse in Aardenburg 
testing but is has not been tested there (Natural is tested). Which does 
not make EEM (etc) a good paper.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

>Is this better or worse than Epson Enhanced Matte?

Archival Matte=Enhanced Matte=Ultra Premium Presentation Matte. Archival 
Matte was NOT archival.

The current totally misleading marketing from Epson is marketing this 
paper as "Ultra Premium" and their 5-star, best of the line rating.

The thing I use it for is proofing/testing prints that are going onto 
Hot Press Natural.

Seth

I've been using Epson's Hot Press Natural myself and love it but will have to change to something much cooler for my current series but not sure what. Any suggestions?

In the meantime, I proofed my latest work with 2 boxes of stuff I had on hand that was given to me, though I hate glossy/lustre plastc-like prints as it is. One was Ilford's Galerie Smooth Pearl Paper and the other is Ilford's Galerie Classic Pearl Paper. I noticed a huge difference between the two.The Smooth Pearl had a substantially thicker base and I had no problems with the tones of the image matching what was on my monitor. The Classic Pearl is horribly thin with a strange grainy coating on the back of the paper. What was worse was that the images printed muddy and dark no matter what I did to adjust the image via PS.

I don't see why or how a different ICC profile would make a difference and more importantly, why would Ilford call these papers almost by the same name?

-AnnMarie
www.annmarietornabene.net

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Seth Rossman <seth@...> wrote:

>
>  >Is this better or worse than Epson Enhanced Matte?
> 
> Archival Matte=Enhanced Matte=Ultra Premium Presentation Matte. Archival 
> Matte was NOT archival.
> 
> The current totally misleading marketing from Epson is marketing this 
> paper as "Ultra Premium" and their 5-star, best of the line rating.
> 
> The thing I use it for is proofing/testing prints that are going onto 
> Hot Press Natural.
> 
> Seth
>

Seth - Thank-you for your comment about Hot Press Natural.  It triggered some reading about papers that I haven't done for 8 years or so.

I never do proof/test prints.  I have a production flow that is very predictable.  However, I do offer customers the option of an archival 100% rag paper, Epson UltraSmooth.  I just found out today it is coated both sides - kind of a waste for my use.

You have motivated me to try the Hot Press Bright White when this roll is replaced.  It is 50% thicker than the UltraSmooth so that will be a pain to work with -- unless single side paper is more flexible.  Same price, so definitely worth trying.

I have always assumed that EEM fades when the optical whitener dissipates.  To my eye, the faded EEM looks like the same warm tone of UltraSmooth.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Seth Rossman <seth@...> wrote:

>
>  >Is this better or worse than Epson Enhanced Matte?
> 
> Archival Matte=Enhanced Matte=Ultra Premium Presentation Matte. Archival 
> Matte was NOT archival.
> 
> The current totally misleading marketing from Epson is marketing this 
> paper as "Ultra Premium" and their 5-star, best of the line rating.
> 
> The thing I use it for is proofing/testing prints that are going onto 
> Hot Press Natural.
> 
> Seth
>

On 09/14/2012 03:30 PM, faeofavalon wrote:
> I've been using Epson's Hot Press Natural myself and love it but will
> have to change to something much cooler for my current series but not
> sure what. Any suggestions?
>
> In the meantime, I proofed my latest work with 2 boxes of stuff I had on
> hand that was given to me, though I hate glossy/lustre plastc-like
> prints as it is. One was Ilford's Galerie Smooth Pearl Paper and the
> other is Ilford's Galerie Classic Pearl Paper. I noticed a huge
> difference between the two.The Smooth Pearl had a substantially thicker
> base and I had no problems with the tones of the image matching what was
> on my monitor. The Classic Pearl is horribly thin with a strange grainy
> coating on the back of the paper. What was worse was that the images
> printed muddy and dark no matter what I did to adjust the image via PS.
>
> I don't see why or how a different ICC profile would make a difference
> and more importantly, why would Ilford call these papers almost by the
> same name?
>
> -AnnMarie
> www.annmarietornabene.net


The Classic versions are dye compatible only so if you are using pigment 
inks ..........

The Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl Paper that was also given to you could 
be the older version. Right now the Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl 11 280 
gsm is distributed which should be an improvement on the old version. 
The OBAs are contained within the paper base between the polyethylene 
barriers. That would reduce oxidation of the OBA dyes. Last week I 
returned to that paper for the same reason you sketched.

Ilford announced new changes for its range of papers and I have to check 
at the Photokina next week what that means for the Pearl 11.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad, pi\ufffdzografie, gicl\ufffde
www.pigment-print.com

faeofavalon <faeofavalon@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I've been using Epson's Hot Press Natural myself and love it but will have
> to change to something much cooler for my current series but not sure what.
> Any suggestions?
>
>
> Epson Hot Press Bright White uses the same profiles and is not too loaded
with OBAs.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just use the EEM/UPPM for the Clayton Jones method-- 4x5, adjust, 5x7, 
tweak, etc.  About $ .20/8x11 in a 250-sheet box from Atlex on sale or 
rebate.  It is SO close to HPN, it's uncanny.

BTW--depending on your printer, CS6, and whatever else you have going 
on, there are ways to trick an Epson into top loading the HPN and 
printing correctly.

Seth

> I've been using Epson's Hot Press Natural myself and love it but will
 > have to change to something much cooler for my current series but not
 > sure what. Any suggestions?

Why not go Hot Press White?  Aardenburg has good ratings on it with both 
K3 and HDR inks.

Seth

On 2012-09-14, at 8:30 AM, "faeofavalon" <faeofavalon@...> wrote:

> I've been using Epson's Hot Press Natural myself and love it but will have to change to something much cooler for my current series but not sure what. Any suggestions?

Depending on what "much cooler" means, Canson Rag Photographique might be worth considering. It's OBA-free, cotton rag, and almost dead-on neutral (a*=0.2, b*=0.7). It has a very smooth surface and prints show a lot of detail. 

Terry.

I'm reviving this thread because it seems more appropriate to add this here rather start a new one.

I just sold a print that I quickly had to exchange for another.
The print had been on display in my gallery for about three years and when I opened the matte to look at it, I was shocked to see the paper had significantly yellowed where it was not covered by the matte. (I leave about 3/8 white paper showing around an image, the rest covered by matte.)

At first I thought it was Red River Aurora Natural, my standard paper until recently, and I went ballistic. I have sold many thousands of dollars of prints on this paper and the thought... well, you get the idea.

Then I remembered that this particular image would not print well on Aurora and that I had used Entrada Rag instead. I checked my records and sure enough; Entrada.

I experimented with Entrada only a short while. I remembered that though I prefer Natural papers, some of the Entrada I bought to play with was Bright. Comparing the yellowed Entrada print to a Natural Aurora sheet, the amount of yellowing was exactly (visually) the amount to be expected for OBA fading. So, for the time being, I am going to assume the problem was simply a loss of OBAs, unless someone here has other information(?). I hope not!

I never liked OBAs and this experience makes me like them even less. They are gone in only three years (possibly less, as I don't know when they faded during that period) and there is no way that obvious yellowing can make an artist look good when/if the collector opens that matte.

Thank god I did so little printing on these papers.